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Champion Spotlight - Mr Sinister

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Comments

  • KpatrixKpatrix Posts: 1,050 ★★★
    Thanks @1_ShuNeu_1
  • TawliTawli Posts: 66
    Still no info, great fix
  • Ch1efsterCh1efster Posts: 475 ★★★
    edited February 2019
    Rotelly wrote: »
    @Kabam Miike when will we get better examples for sp1 transfer

    My guess is AFTER people spend for his FGMC and grind his arena.
  • Hey there everyone, just wanted to jump in and provide some more info regarding the way Mister Sinister Transfers Debuffs with his SP1. Here are a few examples:

    1) Debuffs with a set duration, like Double Edge or the Bleed from Hawkeye’s Hemorrhage ability, will deal their full damage when transferred, but the damage will be compressed into a 4 second duration Debuff on the opponent.

    2) Debuffs with an infinite duration, like Liquid Courage, will do the same damage-per-tick that they would normally do, but they only last for 4 seconds once they had been transferred. This will not compress an infinite amount of damage, or damage equal to Mister Sinister's health, into the 4 second Debuff.

    3) Additionally, any Debuffs that he transfers that deal their damage based off of their target's Health will calculate their damage based off of Mister Sinister’s Base Health when transferred. This means these Debuffs will still be potent when he transfers them, but keeps them from becoming too powerful from node buffs in places like Alliance War.
  • PaytoPlayPaytoPlay Posts: 762 ★★★
    More importantly, if say double edge is 1 second away from expiring when the transfer happens, will the full damage of double edge (at the start of the fight) refreshes and compressed into 4 seconds? Or only that last second of damage ?
  • PaytoPlayPaytoPlay Posts: 762 ★★★
    edited February 2019
    PaytoPlay wrote: »
    More importantly, if say double edge is 1 second away from expiring when the transfer happens, will the full damage of double edge (at the start of the fight) refreshes and compressed into 4 seconds? Or only that last second of damage ?
    Prime example of needless complexity and additional uncertainty compared to 4 seconds of whatever the tic was when it transferred

    100% agree. Compressed damage + recalculate damage to per mr. Sinister base health upon transfer sounds like a recipe to many potential bugs. In fact clarification 2 and 3 makes sense but 1 makes no sense.
  • PaytoPlayPaytoPlay Posts: 762 ★★★


    1) Debuffs with a set duration, like Double Edge or the Bleed from Hawkeye’s Hemorrhage ability, will deal their full damage when transferred, but the damage will be compressed into a 4 second duration Debuff on the opponent.

    I guess just some clarification on what 'full damage' means will be helpful. Imo full damage means all damage generated within the maximum possible set duration.

    So if double edge last 10 sec and generate 1000 bleed damage, 'full damage' means 1000 bleed damage in 4 seconds after transfer (regardless of when the sp 1 was activated as long as there's a DE bleed debuff on him during the transfer).
  • KpatrixKpatrix Posts: 1,050 ★★★
    Other Champion Synergies

    Strong Matchups
    Hawkeye
    • Imagine all the damage contained in Hawkey’s Hemorrhage Bleed compressed into 4 seconds. That’s the effect Clint can expect when Sinister Transfers that debuff back to its source.

    I didn't realize the entire debuff duration damage would be compressed and transferred over the 4 seconds. How would this interact in AW as a defender when placed with coagulate / double edge? Since the health will be boosted a ton, will the same tic damage be transferred over (resulting in a 5 second death) or will it be transferred just as if the attacker joined the fight with coagulate / double edge masteries on?

    It would deal a boosted amount based on the Defender's Health. However Coagulate will still work to reduce the length of the bleed.

    So basically he has been nerfed since his release based on how miike described it ? He said it would be transferred off his boosted health.
  • MagrailothosMagrailothos Posts: 3,992 ★★★★★
    edited February 2019
    Rotelly wrote: »
    Hey there everyone, just wanted to jump in and provide some more info regarding the way Mister Sinister Transfers Debuffs with his SP1. Here are a few examples:

    1) Debuffs with a set duration, like Double Edge or the Bleed from Hawkeye’s Hemorrhage ability, will deal their full damage when transferred, but the damage will be compressed into a 4 second duration Debuff on the opponent.

    2) Debuffs with an infinite duration, like Liquid Courage, will do the same damage-per-tick that they would normally do, but they only last for 4 seconds once they had been transferred. This will not compress an infinite amount of damage, or damage equal to Mister Sinister's health, into the 4 second Debuff.

    3) Additionally, any Debuffs that he transfers that deal their damage based off of their target's Health will calculate their damage based off of Mister Sinister’s Base Health when transferred. This means these Debuffs will still be potent when he transfers them, but keeps them from becoming too powerful from node buffs in places like Alliance War.

    @Kabam Zibiit What happens if a debuff was transfered over that lasted a shorter duration than 4 seconds?

    For example: a bleed that lasted 2 seconds and dealt 100 dmg over that time period (50 bleed dmg per second), would that become a bleed lasting 4 seconds and dealing the same 100 dmg (25 bleed dmg per second)

    That's exactly what I asked on page 3 of this thread. Based on Zibiit's answer (and thanks for that, by the way) it sounds like, yes, short bleeds get stretched out - although practically speaking, it would be very hard to actually transfer them.
    PaytoPlay wrote: »
    More importantly, if say double edge is 1 second away from expiring when the transfer happens, will the full damage of double edge (at the start of the fight) refreshes and compressed into 4 seconds? Or only that last second of damage ?

    Zibiit's answer - which specifically references Double Edge - reinforces my personal inference that the thinking behind this particular ability is: design at least a few champions who make Suicide masteries more desirable (Sinister, Ghost, Omega Red, Emma Frost...)

    As such, personally I'd be highly surprised if Double Edge is any less effective when transferred late than early. Expect the full damage to be transferred; so that 'Double Edged' Sinister becomes hugely dangerous whenever placed on a Health Boost node.
  • KpatrixKpatrix Posts: 1,050 ★★★
    Rotelly wrote: »
    Hey there everyone, just wanted to jump in and provide some more info regarding the way Mister Sinister Transfers Debuffs with his SP1. Here are a few examples:

    1) Debuffs with a set duration, like Double Edge or the Bleed from Hawkeye’s Hemorrhage ability, will deal their full damage when transferred, but the damage will be compressed into a 4 second duration Debuff on the opponent.

    2) Debuffs with an infinite duration, like Liquid Courage, will do the same damage-per-tick that they would normally do, but they only last for 4 seconds once they had been transferred. This will not compress an infinite amount of damage, or damage equal to Mister Sinister's health, into the 4 second Debuff.

    3) Additionally, any Debuffs that he transfers that deal their damage based off of their target's Health will calculate their damage based off of Mister Sinister’s Base Health when transferred. This means these Debuffs will still be potent when he transfers them, but keeps them from becoming too powerful from node buffs in places like Alliance War.

    @Kabam Zibiit What happens if a debuff was transfered over that lasted a shorter duration than 4 seconds?

    For example: a bleed that lasted 2 seconds and dealt 100 dmg over that time period (50 bleed dmg per second), would that become a bleed lasting 4 seconds and dealing the same 100 dmg (25 bleed dmg per second)

    That's exactly what I asked on page 3 of this thread. Based on Zibiit's answer (and thanks for that, by the way) it sounds like, yes, short bleeds get stretched out - although practically speaking, it would be very hard to actually transfer them.
    PaytoPlay wrote: »
    More importantly, if say double edge is 1 second away from expiring when the transfer happens, will the full damage of double edge (at the start of the fight) refreshes and compressed into 4 seconds? Or only that last second of damage ?

    Zibiit's answer - which specifically references Double Edge - reinforces my personal inference that the thinking behind this particular ability is: design at least a few champions who make Suicide masteries more desirable (Sinister, Ghost, Omega Red, Emma Frost...)

    As such, personally I'd be highly surprised if Double Edge is any less effective when transferred late than early. Expect the full damage to be transferred; so that 'Double Edged' Sinister becomes hugely dangerous whenever placed on a Health Boost node.

    Read point 3 in Zibiit’s last post, the transfer is from sinister’s base health, not boosted. The opposite of what Miike stated on page 1 of this thread. A 5/65 sinister will deal out 20% of his base health in bleed damage, nodes won’t affect the transfer. This is a good thing since boosted he could kill you without touching you if you weren’t bleed immune in war.

    We still need clarification on whether it’s the full amount or the remaining amount that gets transferred though. It really should be left as it was when released, with a cap to the damage in LoL similar to Loki. He will still be useful on defense, but not worth putting suicides on in my opinion.
  • Genetic Masterpiece - Cable
    All Mutants: Randomly start the fight with either +25% passive Attack Rating, +25% passive Power Rate, or +25% passive Armor Rating.

    With this synergy a team composed of Domino, Cable, Rulk, Massacre, Mr. Sinister together, will make my Dominó even more fun to play.
    jcancg4watvd.png
  • PaytoPlayPaytoPlay Posts: 762 ★★★
    Rotelly wrote: »
    Hey there everyone, just wanted to jump in and provide some more info regarding the way Mister Sinister Transfers Debuffs with his SP1. Here are a few examples:

    1) Debuffs with a set duration, like Double Edge or the Bleed from Hawkeye’s Hemorrhage ability, will deal their full damage when transferred, but the damage will be compressed into a 4 second duration Debuff on the opponent.

    2) Debuffs with an infinite duration, like Liquid Courage, will do the same damage-per-tick that they would normally do, but they only last for 4 seconds once they had been transferred. This will not compress an infinite amount of damage, or damage equal to Mister Sinister's health, into the 4 second Debuff.

    3) Additionally, any Debuffs that he transfers that deal their damage based off of their target's Health will calculate their damage based off of Mister Sinister’s Base Health when transferred. This means these Debuffs will still be potent when he transfers them, but keeps them from becoming too powerful from node buffs in places like Alliance War.

    @Kabam Zibiit What happens if a debuff was transfered over that lasted a shorter duration than 4 seconds?

    For example: a bleed that lasted 2 seconds and dealt 100 dmg over that time period (50 bleed dmg per second), would that become a bleed lasting 4 seconds and dealing the same 100 dmg (25 bleed dmg per second)

    That's exactly what I asked on page 3 of this thread. Based on Zibiit's answer (and thanks for that, by the way) it sounds like, yes, short bleeds get stretched out - although practically speaking, it would be very hard to actually transfer them.
    PaytoPlay wrote: »
    More importantly, if say double edge is 1 second away from expiring when the transfer happens, will the full damage of double edge (at the start of the fight) refreshes and compressed into 4 seconds? Or only that last second of damage ?

    Zibiit's answer - which specifically references Double Edge - reinforces my personal inference that the thinking behind this particular ability is: design at least a few champions who make Suicide masteries more desirable (Sinister, Ghost, Omega Red, Emma Frost...)

    As such, personally I'd be highly surprised if Double Edge is any less effective when transferred late than early. Expect the full damage to be transferred; so that 'Double Edged' Sinister becomes hugely dangerous whenever placed on a Health Boost node.

    Like kpatrix mentioned, health boost will not affect the strength of that full damage but yes I tend to agree with your other points.
  • MagrailothosMagrailothos Posts: 3,992 ★★★★★
    Kpatrix wrote: »
    Rotelly wrote: »
    Hey there everyone, just wanted to jump in and provide some more info regarding the way Mister Sinister Transfers Debuffs with his SP1. Here are a few examples:

    1) Debuffs with a set duration, like Double Edge or the Bleed from Hawkeye’s Hemorrhage ability, will deal their full damage when transferred, but the damage will be compressed into a 4 second duration Debuff on the opponent.

    2) Debuffs with an infinite duration, like Liquid Courage, will do the same damage-per-tick that they would normally do, but they only last for 4 seconds once they had been transferred. This will not compress an infinite amount of damage, or damage equal to Mister Sinister's health, into the 4 second Debuff.

    3) Additionally, any Debuffs that he transfers that deal their damage based off of their target's Health will calculate their damage based off of Mister Sinister’s Base Health when transferred. This means these Debuffs will still be potent when he transfers them, but keeps them from becoming too powerful from node buffs in places like Alliance War.

    @Kabam Zibiit What happens if a debuff was transfered over that lasted a shorter duration than 4 seconds?

    For example: a bleed that lasted 2 seconds and dealt 100 dmg over that time period (50 bleed dmg per second), would that become a bleed lasting 4 seconds and dealing the same 100 dmg (25 bleed dmg per second)

    That's exactly what I asked on page 3 of this thread. Based on Zibiit's answer (and thanks for that, by the way) it sounds like, yes, short bleeds get stretched out - although practically speaking, it would be very hard to actually transfer them.
    PaytoPlay wrote: »
    More importantly, if say double edge is 1 second away from expiring when the transfer happens, will the full damage of double edge (at the start of the fight) refreshes and compressed into 4 seconds? Or only that last second of damage ?

    Zibiit's answer - which specifically references Double Edge - reinforces my personal inference that the thinking behind this particular ability is: design at least a few champions who make Suicide masteries more desirable (Sinister, Ghost, Omega Red, Emma Frost...)

    As such, personally I'd be highly surprised if Double Edge is any less effective when transferred late than early. Expect the full damage to be transferred; so that 'Double Edged' Sinister becomes hugely dangerous whenever placed on a Health Boost node.

    Read point 3 in Zibiit’s last post, the transfer is from sinister’s base health, not boosted. The opposite of what Miike stated on page 1 of this thread. A 5/65 sinister will deal out 20% of his base health in bleed damage, nodes won’t affect the transfer.

    Fair point, you're right there.
  • Rotelly wrote: »
    Hey there everyone, just wanted to jump in and provide some more info regarding the way Mister Sinister Transfers Debuffs with his SP1. Here are a few examples:

    1) Debuffs with a set duration, like Double Edge or the Bleed from Hawkeye’s Hemorrhage ability, will deal their full damage when transferred, but the damage will be compressed into a 4 second duration Debuff on the opponent.

    2) Debuffs with an infinite duration, like Liquid Courage, will do the same damage-per-tick that they would normally do, but they only last for 4 seconds once they had been transferred. This will not compress an infinite amount of damage, or damage equal to Mister Sinister's health, into the 4 second Debuff.

    3) Additionally, any Debuffs that he transfers that deal their damage based off of their target's Health will calculate their damage based off of Mister Sinister’s Base Health when transferred. This means these Debuffs will still be potent when he transfers them, but keeps them from becoming too powerful from node buffs in places like Alliance War.

    @Kabam Zibiit What happens if a debuff was transfered over that lasted a shorter duration than 4 seconds?

    For example: a bleed that lasted 2 seconds and dealt 100 dmg over that time period (50 bleed dmg per second), would that become a bleed lasting 4 seconds and dealing the same 100 dmg (25 bleed dmg per second)

    Good question! You're correct; Debuffs that deal a set amount of damage will do the same total damage after they're transferred, just over a 4 second period of time.

    So Debuffs shorter than 4 seconds would deal less damage per tick when transferred, but the amount of overall damage they dealt would be the same. Using your example, the Bleed Debuff that lasted 2 seconds and did 100 damage, would still deal 100 damage after it is transferred, just spread out over a 4 second period of time.
  • PaytoPlay wrote: »
    More importantly, if say double edge is 1 second away from expiring when the transfer happens, will the full damage of double edge (at the start of the fight) refreshes and compressed into 4 seconds? Or only that last second of damage ?

    Hey there, the amount of time left on a Debuff will not impact the damage it does when transferred by Mister Sinister. It would do the same damage when transferred no matter if it had 1 second left or 10 seconds left. Hope that helps!
  • ArdiArdi Posts: 18
    edited February 2019
    PaytoPlay wrote: »
    More importantly, if say double edge is 1 second away from expiring when the transfer happens, will the full damage of double edge (at the start of the fight) refreshes and compressed into 4 seconds? Or only that last second of damage ?

    Hey there, the amount of time left on a Debuff will not impact the damage it does when transferred by Mister Sinister. It would do the same damage when transferred no matter if it had 1 second left or 10 seconds left. Hope that helps!

    So a bleed that did 10k damage over 10 seconds and had 1 second left would do the same damage as if it had 9 seconds left? So it would be 10k over 4 seconds no matter what.

    Correct. You deal the same amount regardless of time left.


    Against Iceman, Sinister can transfer coldsnap to iceman at full strength regardless of time left for coldsnap to expire. So whatever damage his coldsnap is supposed to do to sinister is condensed into 4 seconds and transferred back to him.
  • Ardi wrote: »
    PaytoPlay wrote: »
    More importantly, if say double edge is 1 second away from expiring when the transfer happens, will the full damage of double edge (at the start of the fight) refreshes and compressed into 4 seconds? Or only that last second of damage ?

    Hey there, the amount of time left on a Debuff will not impact the damage it does when transferred by Mister Sinister. It would do the same damage when transferred no matter if it had 1 second left or 10 seconds left. Hope that helps!

    So a bleed that did 10k damage over 10 seconds and had 1 second left would do the same damage as if it had 9 seconds left? So it would be 10k over 4 seconds no matter what.

    Correct. You deal the same amount regardless of time left.


    Against Iceman, Sinister can transfer coldsnap to iceman at full strength regardless of time left for coldsnap to expire. So whatever damage his coldsnap is supposed to do to sinister is condensed into 4 seconds and transferred back to him.

    Correct and a good example!
  • ArdiArdi Posts: 18
    Ardi wrote: »
    PaytoPlay wrote: »
    More importantly, if say double edge is 1 second away from expiring when the transfer happens, will the full damage of double edge (at the start of the fight) refreshes and compressed into 4 seconds? Or only that last second of damage ?

    Hey there, the amount of time left on a Debuff will not impact the damage it does when transferred by Mister Sinister. It would do the same damage when transferred no matter if it had 1 second left or 10 seconds left. Hope that helps!

    So a bleed that did 10k damage over 10 seconds and had 1 second left would do the same damage as if it had 9 seconds left? So it would be 10k over 4 seconds no matter what.

    Correct. You deal the same amount regardless of time left.


    Against Iceman, Sinister can transfer coldsnap to iceman at full strength regardless of time left for coldsnap to expire. So whatever damage his coldsnap is supposed to do to sinister is condensed into 4 seconds and transferred back to him.

    I guess it ends up a wash as some use cases seem weak while some are strong. shrug As long as the math works out.

    Agreed! Liquid Courage for example, you can transfer it, but you won't be dealing much damage compared to Double edge, however, if awakened and have 2 or more science persistent charges + willpower, you will be healing 20+ per tick. In those scenarios, I prefer to keep the debuf on me! Great for AQ.
  • MagrailothosMagrailothos Posts: 3,992 ★★★★★
    Can I ask a question about potential counters to this ability, please?

    1 - Can it be glanced? My guess is, no, since the mechanism seems independent of actually getting hit.

    2 - Will Civil Warrior's Armours potentially shield him (by reducing offensive ability accuracy)?
  • Can I ask a question about potential counters to this ability, please?

    1 - Can it be glanced? My guess is, no, since the mechanism seems independent of actually getting hit.

    2 - Will Civil Warrior's Armours potentially shield him (by reducing offensive ability accuracy)?

    1) Nope, Glancing can't stop the Debuff transfer.

    2) Yep! Ability Accuracy can stop the transfer, including Concussions, Neurotoxin, and the like.
  • PaytoPlayPaytoPlay Posts: 762 ★★★
    edited February 2019
    Zuko_ILC wrote: »
    Can I ask a question about potential counters to this ability, please?

    1 - Can it be glanced? My guess is, no, since the mechanism seems independent of actually getting hit.

    2 - Will Civil Warrior's Armours potentially shield him (by reducing offensive ability accuracy)?

    1) Nope, Glancing can't stop the Debuff transfer.

    2) Yep! Ability Accuracy can stop the transfer, including Concussions, Neurotoxin, and the like.

    I'm confused the developer notes states they can't be prevented:

    Developer Notes: It’s important to remember that the Transfer of Damaging Debuffs cannot be prevented. Definitely reconsider bringing any epic Bleed champions in against him.

    Now you are saying they can be by ability accuracy??? This is completely different than what the developer has stated??? Which is right?

    Ability accuracy reduction is not modifying the effect of the ability, but reducing the ability from triggering in the first place. That's how sabretooth with km synergy worked on say.. mordo astral evade, or blade on mephisto regen just as an example. Once the ability is allowed to trigger though, the transfer will happen and can't be prevented (what the developer meant).
  • PaytoPlayPaytoPlay Posts: 762 ★★★
    edited February 2019
    Actually blade and mephisto regen example is a bad one ( DS on dimensional being vs immunity to passive AAR). But ST and km one is legit.
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