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Block Penetration and Yondu Synergy

SaiyanSaiyan Posts: 350 ★★
So I'm looking at his little BP that is being added back to the game and I'm thinking "Well that will be annoying on defense on say a Bleed enhance node but won't be too bad" then I look down at his synergies and I see he's able to spread that lovely BP among his teammates.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't that mean on AW Defense with say him + Night Crawler = everyone of your squad gain BP as well? Meaning if you throw in a Spiderman or two to the mix or even a stun immune Juggs or something, wouldn't that mean blocking you'll get way more damage that you account for? Even the Caps would feel it.

Am I wrong on this? I'm not the most experienced player on AW so someone tell me I'm crazy or that it won't be as bad as I'm thinking.

Comments

  • DaMunkDaMunk Posts: 1,842 ★★★★
    edited May 2017
    I'm not sure what they actually have planned but it's not looking good. I hoped we were done with block penetration. Having one champ with it wouldn't be bad but giving it to nightcrawler isn't a good idea, he's bad enough as is. There needs to be counters to things, not seeing one here.
  • ShrimkinsShrimkins Posts: 1,335 ★★★★
    It says "all champions" right in the spotlight so I think it's pretty obvious all your defenders will get the block penetration.

    I think everyone is overreacting a little bit here. If the flat value for BP follow the same rules as the other flat values, then it will only increase the damage through our block by 16%.

    Not a huge amount and certainly much less than the damage we use to take from crits through blocks.
  • DaMunkDaMunk Posts: 1,842 ★★★★
    If Yondu is a decent defender it will just be a matter of time before the entire map has block penetration. Sneaky
  • SaiyanSaiyan Posts: 350 ★★
    "The whole map with BP". See that's my concern. I may be over reacting and I wanna see it in action first before I jump to conclusions first but still I wanna ask for everyone's opinion on the matter.

    Shrimkins: It may not be much more (maybe it will maybe it won't) but it will add another layer of unnecessary overall damage taken in general. As Damaunk said, a counter or so would be nice for that but even the Caps once they don't get their perfect block chances going they will still take more damage than normal which as when 12.0 came out makes their usefulness go down alot.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 8,575 Guardian
    Shrimkins wrote: »
    I think everyone is overreacting a little bit here. If the flat value for BP follow the same rules as the other flat values, then it will only increase the damage through our block by 16%.

    Not a huge amount and certainly much less than the damage we use to take from crits through blocks.

    I think it is important to be extremely precise with language here. The net effect of +400 block penetration is to reduce block effectiveness by about sixteen percentage points. I think it is really important to understand what "sixteen percentage points" means in this context. It is not the same thing as increasing the damage we take by sixteen percent.

    Saying "we will take sixteen percent more damage" sound small: like we used to be taking 200 points of damage through the block and now we will be taking 232? But - and I don't know if the devs changed this from the original 12.0 version so I could be completely wrong here - that's not how I understand block penetration to work. Block penetration will increase damage by more. Potentially a lot more.

    Let's say you are using a champion that has about 2300 block proficiency (about average), and has the block mastery maxed out for an additional +800 block. That equates to about 3100 block proficiency, and about 60% block percentage. That means you are taking about 40% of the damage of the original attack. Block penetration is going to increase that by 16 percentage points or to about 56% of the damage of the original attack. That means players will see 40% more damage. Just so no one is confused: a 1000 point attack gets reduced to 400 points of damage when your block is 60%. 16% block penetration makes your block essentially only 44% instead of 60%, and you get hit with 560 points of damage instead. 560 is 40% more than 400.

    It gets worse. Suppose you land a Parry. Parry (when maxed) adds 25% to net block percentage. That means on a parried attack your champion (in this example) has essentially 85% block, which means they take 15% damage - 150 points of damage on a 1000 point attack. 16% block penetration would increase that damage to 31% or 310 points of damage. In other words, in this example you would be seeing 107% more damage on a parried attack. To put it another way, more than double.

    The more effective your block is, the proportionately harder you're going to be hit by block penetration. If you are using, say, Captain America WWII with about 5700 block proficiency, then with mastery that's 6500 block proficiency or about 76% block. His blocked damage used to be 24% of original attack, with 16% block penetration that will increase to 40% or 67% more than what he used to see. And on a Parry, he's going to be seeing an incomputably higher damage because he could Parry to zero, and now he will be seeing substantial damage (and I can't divide by zero).

    Sixteen percent is the computational number, but that's not what players will see. Players will see small numbers (blocked damage) get much larger by a much higher percentage than that number intuitively implies. They could be seeing anything from one third more damage to twice as much damage to even more. Block penetration - as I currently understand block penetration to work - does more than penetrate blocks. It eviscerates champions whose primary capability is blocking. It would be like if Yondu's synergy granted everyone on the team heal block. That's going to hurt Vision a little, but Wolverine by everything. Block penetration is not quite that binary, but I don't think the devs have really thought this one out fully.

    If they changed the block penetration mechanics so it doesn't work the way I understood it to work in 12.0, I hope they say so. Because unless they did this isn't something that needs to be datamined: I can tell you exactly what block penetration is going to do numerically, and it is nothing good for balance. I hope I'm wrong. But I can only be wrong about how block penetration works. I'm not wrong about what it will do if I'm not wrong about how it works.
  • FalseOracleFalseOracle Posts: 148
    edited May 2017
    Chuck Norris can divide by 0.

    (now THAT's a joke!)
  • DaMunkDaMunk Posts: 1,842 ★★★★
    Think about those numbers against a boss...we are now getting into the don't get hit blocking or otherwise again. I hope this has been well thought out and we are imaging the worst case scenario.
  • DaMunkDaMunk Posts: 1,842 ★★★★
    Especially is you can stack synergies and I expect you will be able to.
  • Haji_SaabHaji_Saab Posts: 3,062 ★★★★★
    edited May 2017
    Reminds me of my posts when Magik's limbo was introduced and i was like come on guys this is BS ... it is still BS... and this is probably going to be BS as well... every passing day i feel less inclined to take interest in AW bcoz of these cheap mechanics
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 8,575 Guardian
    Chuck Norris can divide by 0.

    Yes, but that's because when you divide by zero you get Chuck Norris.
  • SaiyanSaiyan Posts: 350 ★★
    I suppose we'll have to see how it all goes down. With diminishing returns the actual calculations may not be correct. Just to be clear by issue isn't with Yondo having BP for himself, my concern is seeing a AW map full of ALL champs having BP on their attacks. That on some nodes would be interesting to see.
  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 2,894 ★★★★★
    Thing is, I want to rank 5 my nightcrawler now because I got a 5* yondu. I think this synergy will be awesome to have on my defence team. But, I don't want to do it because what if I use those mutant cats and 8 basic cats to rank 5 NC, then the synergy gets nerfed? I know some might say NC is a good defender anyway, but in my opinion my defence team is already good enough to not need NC, so it would be a huge waste to use my mutant cats on him because if the synergy.
  • Did anyone find out for sure how this works?
  • Did some experimenting to see if NC got a good boost or not. Fought with an NC/yondu team and did the same fight without carrying yondu.

    With yondu, blocked hits ranged from 87 to 198 (light and medium). But there were several blocked hits that were more in the 130 range.

    Without him, the range was 87 to 135. There was less damage fluctuation among blocked hits without yondu.

    Using a 5/50 NC vs black bolt in chapter 4.

    Is this working as intended? I realize this experiment is the epitome of scientific research... but if someone had a light to shine, it would be appreciated. @Kabam Spice @Kabam Wolf
  • GrinderGrinder Posts: 242
    edited July 2017
    It's not a very big change and hardly noticeable unless you're truly looking for it. It's not worth wasting the space strictly for block penetration. Think of it like this, if you happen to be using the 2 champs you'll just get a bit of a bonus but if not it's nothing to break a sweat over.
  • Mr_OtterMr_Otter Posts: 1,614 ★★★
    edited July 2017
    Oh yeah complain you take a little more block damage why don't you… not like we don't already have other forms of unavoidable damage…

    I see 2 of them in the thread already

    A nerf to Yondu because of his defensive potential and the half already in arms over AW defense will be furious as there are WORSE things than a little extra damage from Yondu
  • Yeah I'm not really following you @Mr_Otter but no big deal.

    I just think it's dumb that the descriptions are so bad. Hell, half my alli was almost positive yondu would get a unit per removed armor up during a fight lmao.

    I'm considering putting him on defense tho and wanted to fully understand the potential of the synergy. It sounded like it could make other champs ridiculously difficult (NC in particular). And I read some other threads that were theorizing about the amount of extra damage it could cause. But nobody actually knows. And that's ridiculous. About the same as prestige being such a huge part of the game and having to use 3rd party prestige calculators to figure things out.

  • ShrimkinsShrimkins Posts: 1,335 ★★★★
    According to this devs post http://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/2317/challenger-rating-explained#latest

    He states that block penetration ignores that much of the enemy's block proficiency stat.

    So taking that information it would have this effect: 3100 BP like @DNA3000 explained would be about 60% BP.

    So we would subtract 3100-400 = 2700 which in a % would be = 56.25%

    It may really be that simple...
  • X_ScottX_Scott Posts: 640 ★★★
    Don't be fooled. Kabam is always looking for ways to penetrate us.
  • Draco2199Draco2199 Posts: 803 ★★★
    chunkyb wrote: »
    Did some experimenting to see if NC got a good boost or not. Fought with an NC/yondu team and did the same fight without carrying yondu.

    With yondu, blocked hits ranged from 87 to 198 (light and medium). But there were several blocked hits that were more in the 130 range.

    Without him, the range was 87 to 135. There was less damage fluctuation among blocked hits without yondu.

    Using a 5/50 NC vs black bolt in chapter 4.

    Is this working as intended? I realize this experiment is the epitome of scientific research... but if someone had a light to shine, it would be appreciated. @Kabam Spice @Kabam Wolf

    I don't think this works at all to be honest.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 8,575 Guardian
    Shrimkins wrote: »
    According to this devs post http://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/2317/challenger-rating-explained#latest

    He states that block penetration ignores that much of the enemy's block proficiency stat.

    So taking that information it would have this effect: 3100 BP like @DNA3000 explained would be about 60% BP.

    So we would subtract 3100-400 = 2700 which in a % would be = 56.25%

    It may really be that simple...

    My understanding is all of the "counter stats" like block penetration and critical resistance, which act as a "defense" against another stat (block and critical chance respectively in this case) act after DR, not before.

    In other words, it is not DR(stat - stat) it is DR(stat) - DR(stat). That makes those counter stats a lot more powerful. Using your numbers and arbitrarily picking CR=100, block stat 3100 would be 60.78% and block penetration 400 would be 16.67%. If it worked as you describe, the net block would be 57.45%, which is DR(2700) @CR100. But I believe it is actually 60.78% - 16.67% = 44.11%.

    This is why block penetration and critical resistance had a huge impact in 12.0 originally. Consider that we think about diminishing returns as making high stats weaker than they would ordinarily be. But the other way of thinking about diminishing returns is that it makes lower stats stronger relative to higher stats. Most of the benefit comes from the low stats, and there's a decreasing benefit from stacking higher numbers on top. Now think about what that means when it comes to things like block penetration. 3100 looks way larger than 400. But remember that the first 400 is worth way more than the second 400, and the third 400. 400 is "bigger" than it looks. If you look at the final percentages, 400 is actually more than 1/4th the value of 3100.

    If critical resistance and block penetration worked the way you mention above, we probably wouldn't have noticed those stats in 12.0. But because I think it works the other way (there's evidence to support that besides my own guesswork, by the way) even small amounts of block penetration and other similar stats tend to be noticeable.
  • ShrimkinsShrimkins Posts: 1,335 ★★★★
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    Shrimkins wrote: »
    According to this devs post http://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/2317/challenger-rating-explained#latest

    He states that block penetration ignores that much of the enemy's block proficiency stat.

    So taking that information it would have this effect: 3100 BP like @DNA3000 explained would be about 60% BP.

    So we would subtract 3100-400 = 2700 which in a % would be = 56.25%

    It may really be that simple...

    My understanding is all of the "counter stats" like block penetration and critical resistance, which act as a "defense" against another stat (block and critical chance respectively in this case) act after DR, not before.

    In other words, it is not DR(stat - stat) it is DR(stat) - DR(stat). That makes those counter stats a lot more powerful. Using your numbers and arbitrarily picking CR=100, block stat 3100 would be 60.78% and block penetration 400 would be 16.67%. If it worked as you describe, the net block would be 57.45%, which is DR(2700) @CR100. But I believe it is actually 60.78% - 16.67% = 44.11%.

    This is why block penetration and critical resistance had a huge impact in 12.0 originally. Consider that we think about diminishing returns as making high stats weaker than they would ordinarily be. But the other way of thinking about diminishing returns is that it makes lower stats stronger relative to higher stats. Most of the benefit comes from the low stats, and there's a decreasing benefit from stacking higher numbers on top. Now think about what that means when it comes to things like block penetration. 3100 looks way larger than 400. But remember that the first 400 is worth way more than the second 400, and the third 400. 400 is "bigger" than it looks. If you look at the final percentages, 400 is actually more than 1/4th the value of 3100.

    If critical resistance and block penetration worked the way you mention above, we probably wouldn't have noticed those stats in 12.0. But because I think it works the other way (there's evidence to support that besides my own guesswork, by the way) even small amounts of block penetration and other similar stats tend to be noticeable.

    You could be right, but according to the dev post, I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.

    The dev said exactly this:
    Armor Pen, Block Pen, Crit Resist - How much of the opponent's stat is ignored

    So I guess it could go either way. Can we get a mod to comment on this? Is it DR(Stat-Stat) or DR(stat)-DR(stat)?

    As @DNA3000 has pointed out, there is a very significant difference in performance between these 2 calculation methods.
  • GbSarkarGbSarkar Posts: 1,075 ★★★
    Shrimkins wrote: »
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    Shrimkins wrote: »
    According to this devs post http://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/2317/challenger-rating-explained#latest

    He states that block penetration ignores that much of the enemy's block proficiency stat.

    So taking that information it would have this effect: 3100 BP like @DNA3000 explained would be about 60% BP.

    So we would subtract 3100-400 = 2700 which in a % would be = 56.25%

    It may really be that simple...

    My understanding is all of the "counter stats" like block penetration and critical resistance, which act as a "defense" against another stat (block and critical chance respectively in this case) act after DR, not before.

    In other words, it is not DR(stat - stat) it is DR(stat) - DR(stat). That makes those counter stats a lot more powerful. Using your numbers and arbitrarily picking CR=100, block stat 3100 would be 60.78% and block penetration 400 would be 16.67%. If it worked as you describe, the net block would be 57.45%, which is DR(2700) @CR100. But I believe it is actually 60.78% - 16.67% = 44.11%.

    This is why block penetration and critical resistance had a huge impact in 12.0 originally. Consider that we think about diminishing returns as making high stats weaker than they would ordinarily be. But the other way of thinking about diminishing returns is that it makes lower stats stronger relative to higher stats. Most of the benefit comes from the low stats, and there's a decreasing benefit from stacking higher numbers on top. Now think about what that means when it comes to things like block penetration. 3100 looks way larger than 400. But remember that the first 400 is worth way more than the second 400, and the third 400. 400 is "bigger" than it looks. If you look at the final percentages, 400 is actually more than 1/4th the value of 3100.

    If critical resistance and block penetration worked the way you mention above, we probably wouldn't have noticed those stats in 12.0. But because I think it works the other way (there's evidence to support that besides my own guesswork, by the way) even small amounts of block penetration and other similar stats tend to be noticeable.

    You could be right, but according to the dev post, I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.

    The dev said exactly this:
    Armor Pen, Block Pen, Crit Resist - How much of the opponent's stat is ignored

    So I guess it could go either way. Can we get a mod to comment on this? Is it DR(Stat-Stat) or DR(stat)-DR(stat)?

    As @DNA3000 has pointed out, there is a very significant difference in performance between these 2 calculation methods.

    Well, the guy that had dug up the DR formula is the one who said its f(stat)–f(resistance) and not f(stat–resistance) or
    f(stat)*(1–f(resistance)). Since he got the DR formula right, I'm willing to believe this is correct as well. But of course it'll be better if a mod clarifies this
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 8,575 Guardian
    Shrimkins wrote: »
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    Shrimkins wrote: »
    According to this devs post http://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/2317/challenger-rating-explained#latest

    He states that block penetration ignores that much of the enemy's block proficiency stat.

    So taking that information it would have this effect: 3100 BP like @DNA3000 explained would be about 60% BP.

    So we would subtract 3100-400 = 2700 which in a % would be = 56.25%

    It may really be that simple...

    My understanding is all of the "counter stats" like block penetration and critical resistance, which act as a "defense" against another stat (block and critical chance respectively in this case) act after DR, not before.

    In other words, it is not DR(stat - stat) it is DR(stat) - DR(stat). That makes those counter stats a lot more powerful. Using your numbers and arbitrarily picking CR=100, block stat 3100 would be 60.78% and block penetration 400 would be 16.67%. If it worked as you describe, the net block would be 57.45%, which is DR(2700) @CR100. But I believe it is actually 60.78% - 16.67% = 44.11%.

    This is why block penetration and critical resistance had a huge impact in 12.0 originally. Consider that we think about diminishing returns as making high stats weaker than they would ordinarily be. But the other way of thinking about diminishing returns is that it makes lower stats stronger relative to higher stats. Most of the benefit comes from the low stats, and there's a decreasing benefit from stacking higher numbers on top. Now think about what that means when it comes to things like block penetration. 3100 looks way larger than 400. But remember that the first 400 is worth way more than the second 400, and the third 400. 400 is "bigger" than it looks. If you look at the final percentages, 400 is actually more than 1/4th the value of 3100.

    If critical resistance and block penetration worked the way you mention above, we probably wouldn't have noticed those stats in 12.0. But because I think it works the other way (there's evidence to support that besides my own guesswork, by the way) even small amounts of block penetration and other similar stats tend to be noticeable.

    You could be right, but according to the dev post, I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.

    I did not come to that conclusion based on the dev post. I've been saying that since 12.0 released, based on the work of a Redditor that dug up much of the implementation details plus my own testing on top.

    It is very difficult to test probabilities carefully in MCOC, which makes testing things like critical resistance accurately difficult. However, block penetration was easy to test in 12.0 before base values were zeroed out in 12.0.1, and it was definitely not working as DR(block-blockpen).

    I'm pretty sure Kabam Dorosh was being colloquial when he said those stats were the amount of the opponent's stat that is ignored. And so far the Redditor in question has been batting 100% on any mechanics discussion in which it is possible to verify the description through testing.
  • DarkestDestroyerDarkestDestroyer Posts: 2,526 ★★★★
    DaMunk wrote: »
    If Yondu is a decent defender it will just be a matter of time before the entire map has block penetration. Sneaky

    He's not, I solo'd him on centre mini boss tier 1. Much better choices than him, maybe on the right node he will be okay but not a hard fight
  • Anecdotally, I put an AW defense team in that included Yondu and NC. On the enhanced bleed/fury node my 4/40 unduped Yondu was able to take out a full health 4/55 duped SL. I did see more kills that war, but it could have been a team that didn't fight as well. Tier 2
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