Upcoming Fix To King Groot’s Interaction with Omega Red’s Death Spores

CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 3,696 ★★★★★
edited July 14 in General Discussion
In the recently updated known issues post this was posted.

There is an issue where King Groot's ability to shrug off Debuffs is not affected by the ability accuracy reduction from Omega Red's Death Spores.
Resolved Next Update

This is concerning because King Groot’s shrug has never been subject to Ability Accuracy Reduction. This is part of why we have recently seen so many KG rank ups to deal with So Sayeth Doom along with other new AQ modifiers.

Is this an change to the interaction with Omega Red or a change to King Groot’s shrug mechanic itself now being subject to Ability Accuracy Modification?

Bear in mind this has been with King Groot since release.

Comments

  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 3,696 ★★★★★
    Bidzy7 said:

    King Groot purifies a debuff at a cost of a fury buff. There is no mention this ability is immune to ability accuracy reduction therefore it has a flat 100% to work.


    Omega red reduces the ability accuracy of purify abilities by 10% per death spore so at 10 spores King Groot shouldn't purify debuffs as the ability to do this has effectively been reduced to 0. Its a bug that has existed for a while and was never fixed, but it was a bug.

    It does not state it is a chance event. It has never once failed, ever.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 3,696 ★★★★★
    ItsDamien said:

    Bidzy7 said:

    King Groot purifies a debuff at a cost of a fury buff. There is no mention this ability is immune to ability accuracy reduction therefore it has a flat 100% to work.


    Omega red reduces the ability accuracy of purify abilities by 10% per death spore so at 10 spores King Groot shouldn't purify debuffs as the ability to do this has effectively been reduced to 0. Its a bug that has existed for a while and was never fixed, but it was a bug.

    It does not state it is a chance event. It has never once failed, ever.
    It also doesn't state that it cannot fail. It doesn't state that the ability is immune to AAR.

    We know that Kabam is finicky when it comes to wording.
    They are also minimalistic/vague when it comes to descriptions, on many occasions, notably the distant past when KG was released.
  • ItsDamienItsDamien Posts: 1,916 ★★★★★

    ItsDamien said:

    Bidzy7 said:

    King Groot purifies a debuff at a cost of a fury buff. There is no mention this ability is immune to ability accuracy reduction therefore it has a flat 100% to work.


    Omega red reduces the ability accuracy of purify abilities by 10% per death spore so at 10 spores King Groot shouldn't purify debuffs as the ability to do this has effectively been reduced to 0. Its a bug that has existed for a while and was never fixed, but it was a bug.

    It does not state it is a chance event. It has never once failed, ever.
    It also doesn't state that it cannot fail. It doesn't state that the ability is immune to AAR.

    We know that Kabam is finicky when it comes to wording.
    They are also minimalistic/vague when it comes to descriptions, on many occasions, notably the distant past when KG was released.
    Yeah, I won't dispute that at all. But I think there's a level of accountability on the player base as well when we pin expectations on something that's never been explicitly stated.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 3,696 ★★★★★
    ItsDamien said:

    ItsDamien said:

    Bidzy7 said:

    King Groot purifies a debuff at a cost of a fury buff. There is no mention this ability is immune to ability accuracy reduction therefore it has a flat 100% to work.


    Omega red reduces the ability accuracy of purify abilities by 10% per death spore so at 10 spores King Groot shouldn't purify debuffs as the ability to do this has effectively been reduced to 0. Its a bug that has existed for a while and was never fixed, but it was a bug.

    It does not state it is a chance event. It has never once failed, ever.
    It also doesn't state that it cannot fail. It doesn't state that the ability is immune to AAR.

    We know that Kabam is finicky when it comes to wording.
    They are also minimalistic/vague when it comes to descriptions, on many occasions, notably the distant past when KG was released.
    Yeah, I won't dispute that at all. But I think there's a level of accountability on the player base as well when we pin expectations on something that's never been explicitly stated.
    Certainly, I sought clarification in the past however.
    https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/138396/why-couldnt-king-groot-remove-the-poison-in-variant-3-2

    While Kabam does seem to call it a bug, the evidence presented (in search of clarity) was never answered.
  • Thicco_ModeThicco_Mode Posts: 5,216 ★★★★★
    I would assume this is a bug, but kabam could probably spin it either way.
  • Bidzy7Bidzy7 Posts: 309 ★★★

    Bidzy7 said:

    King Groot purifies a debuff at a cost of a fury buff. There is no mention this ability is immune to ability accuracy reduction therefore it has a flat 100% to work.


    Omega red reduces the ability accuracy of purify abilities by 10% per death spore so at 10 spores King Groot shouldn't purify debuffs as the ability to do this has effectively been reduced to 0. Its a bug that has existed for a while and was never fixed, but it was a bug.

    It does not state it is a chance event. It has never once failed, ever.
    well like i said no mention of this ability being immune to AAR so therefore it should be considered a 100% effect. The reason being domino which highlighted this because she was causing things to not happen which people thought was guaranteed which Kabam stated several times that actually it is a 100% effect and because domino reduces AAR by 15% that's why it didn't work.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 3,696 ★★★★★

    Bidzy7 said:

    King Groot purifies a debuff at a cost of a fury buff. There is no mention this ability is immune to ability accuracy reduction therefore it has a flat 100% to work.


    Omega red reduces the ability accuracy of purify abilities by 10% per death spore so at 10 spores King Groot shouldn't purify debuffs as the ability to do this has effectively been reduced to 0. Its a bug that has existed for a while and was never fixed, but it was a bug.

    It does not state it is a chance event. It has never once failed, ever.
    Well, in every other instance I know of when an ability is not subject to aar it is specifically mentioned in the description.

    And I'm pretty sure it has also been officially explained, either somewhere in the game or in the forum or both, that any ability that does not have a specific % chance given, but also isn't explicitly excluded from aar, always has a 100% chance to trigger.

    I get where you're coming from, but it is a bug all things considered.
    Doc Oc’s research build up (realized around the time of KG) I can likely find others escpecially in older champs.

    Any chance of citing that official explanation? It’s come up twice now.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 10,803 Guardian

    Bidzy7 said:

    King Groot purifies a debuff at a cost of a fury buff. There is no mention this ability is immune to ability accuracy reduction therefore it has a flat 100% to work.


    Omega red reduces the ability accuracy of purify abilities by 10% per death spore so at 10 spores King Groot shouldn't purify debuffs as the ability to do this has effectively been reduced to 0. Its a bug that has existed for a while and was never fixed, but it was a bug.

    It does not state it is a chance event. It has never once failed, ever.
    Well, in every other instance I know of when an ability is not subject to aar it is specifically mentioned in the description.

    And I'm pretty sure it has also been officially explained, either somewhere in the game or in the forum or both, that any ability that does not have a specific % chance given, but also isn't explicitly excluded from aar, always has a 100% chance to trigger.

    I get where you're coming from, but it is a bug all things considered.
    Doc Oc’s research build up (realized around the time of KG) I can likely find others escpecially in older champs.

    Any chance of citing that official explanation? It’s come up twice now.
    My recollection is the first discussion surrounding the "presume 100% by default" rule (which isn't absolute, just a default presumption) related to Ultron. Ultron's heals are not described as having a chance to occur, but they could be foiled by (defensive) ability accuracy reduction, ala Black Widow. The interaction between BW and Ultron's heal was to my recollection the first time an ability with no specified chance to occur was described as having a 100% chance to occur "under the hood" in the game mechanics, and just not exposed in the text description of the ability.

    The presumption moving forward was if it was an ability, and had an ability trigger, it should be assumed to have a base 100% chance to occur, but could be affected by ability accuracy reduction unless specified otherwise. I think many offensive abilities are like this as well, where there's no specified chance to occur but offensive ability accuracy reduction can turn them off.
  • HI_guysHI_guys Posts: 700 ★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Bidzy7 said:

    King Groot purifies a debuff at a cost of a fury buff. There is no mention this ability is immune to ability accuracy reduction therefore it has a flat 100% to work.


    Omega red reduces the ability accuracy of purify abilities by 10% per death spore so at 10 spores King Groot shouldn't purify debuffs as the ability to do this has effectively been reduced to 0. Its a bug that has existed for a while and was never fixed, but it was a bug.

    It does not state it is a chance event. It has never once failed, ever.
    Well, in every other instance I know of when an ability is not subject to aar it is specifically mentioned in the description.

    And I'm pretty sure it has also been officially explained, either somewhere in the game or in the forum or both, that any ability that does not have a specific % chance given, but also isn't explicitly excluded from aar, always has a 100% chance to trigger.

    I get where you're coming from, but it is a bug all things considered.
    Doc Oc’s research build up (realized around the time of KG) I can likely find others escpecially in older champs.

    Any chance of citing that official explanation? It’s come up twice now.
    My recollection is the first discussion surrounding the "presume 100% by default" rule (which isn't absolute, just a default presumption) related to Ultron. Ultron's heals are not described as having a chance to occur, but they could be foiled by (defensive) ability accuracy reduction, ala Black Widow. The interaction between BW and Ultron's heal was to my recollection the first time an ability with no specified chance to occur was described as having a 100% chance to occur "under the hood" in the game mechanics, and just not exposed in the text description of the ability.

    The presumption moving forward was if it was an ability, and had an ability trigger, it should be assumed to have a base 100% chance to occur, but could be affected by ability accuracy reduction unless specified otherwise. I think many offensive abilities are like this as well, where there's no specified chance to occur but offensive ability accuracy reduction can turn them off.
    Aren't there some things in the game that just happen and are not affected by anything? Like doc ock build up as coat hanger said. Or quake not being able to evade repulsor beam even if he had a times concussion active, or captain Marvel's binary charge buildup from blocking( the furies themselves may not come but ignition happens)
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 10,803 Guardian
    HI_guys said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Bidzy7 said:

    King Groot purifies a debuff at a cost of a fury buff. There is no mention this ability is immune to ability accuracy reduction therefore it has a flat 100% to work.


    Omega red reduces the ability accuracy of purify abilities by 10% per death spore so at 10 spores King Groot shouldn't purify debuffs as the ability to do this has effectively been reduced to 0. Its a bug that has existed for a while and was never fixed, but it was a bug.

    It does not state it is a chance event. It has never once failed, ever.
    Well, in every other instance I know of when an ability is not subject to aar it is specifically mentioned in the description.

    And I'm pretty sure it has also been officially explained, either somewhere in the game or in the forum or both, that any ability that does not have a specific % chance given, but also isn't explicitly excluded from aar, always has a 100% chance to trigger.

    I get where you're coming from, but it is a bug all things considered.
    Doc Oc’s research build up (realized around the time of KG) I can likely find others escpecially in older champs.

    Any chance of citing that official explanation? It’s come up twice now.
    My recollection is the first discussion surrounding the "presume 100% by default" rule (which isn't absolute, just a default presumption) related to Ultron. Ultron's heals are not described as having a chance to occur, but they could be foiled by (defensive) ability accuracy reduction, ala Black Widow. The interaction between BW and Ultron's heal was to my recollection the first time an ability with no specified chance to occur was described as having a 100% chance to occur "under the hood" in the game mechanics, and just not exposed in the text description of the ability.

    The presumption moving forward was if it was an ability, and had an ability trigger, it should be assumed to have a base 100% chance to occur, but could be affected by ability accuracy reduction unless specified otherwise. I think many offensive abilities are like this as well, where there's no specified chance to occur but offensive ability accuracy reduction can turn them off.
    Aren't there some things in the game that just happen and are not affected by anything? Like doc ock build up as coat hanger said. Or quake not being able to evade repulsor beam even if he had a times concussion active, or captain Marvel's binary charge buildup from blocking( the furies themselves may not come but ignition happens)
    Yes. Under the hood those things aren't "triggered" in the same way, but that's not easy to determine from the outside looking in. Sometimes you can make an educated guess; for example someone who knew a lot about the game might deduce that it was unlikely that Doc Oc's Physics Research was implemented as a conventional ability with a normal trigger, because there's no easy way to "trigger" on power gain (you can trigger on power *bar* gain). And then presume that all of the breakthroughs were unlikely to be affected by AAR. But there's no way to actually *know* this without Kabam saying or direct testing.

    As I mentioned, its the default presumption that abilities have base 100% trigger unless there's a reason to believe otherwise, but there's no absolute rule or absolute way to tell whether something is affected by ability accuracy changes short of testing. Sometimes you just have to know, for example Adrenalin (the 6* health bar recovery mechanism) isn't healing. It might look like healing, it might act like healing, but as far as the game is concerned it is not healing. So nothing that affects healing affects Adrenalin ordinarily. This goes so far, Adrenalin is even completely unaffected by the normal rule that says you can't heal once your opponent is dead. If your opponent dies in the middle of a special attack, all your heals stop at that instant, but Adrenalin keeps working until the fight is over.

    Needless to say, Adrenalin is (as far as I've been able to determine) also unaffected by ability accuracy changes of any kind.
  • Mcord117Mcord117 Posts: 1,676 ★★★★
    I kinda hope that’s what the change is to see that he people who just wasted cats on king groot freak out
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 3,696 ★★★★★
    edited July 21

    Bidzy7 said:

    King Groot purifies a debuff at a cost of a fury buff. There is no mention this ability is immune to ability accuracy reduction therefore it has a flat 100% to work.


    Omega red reduces the ability accuracy of purify abilities by 10% per death spore so at 10 spores King Groot shouldn't purify debuffs as the ability to do this has effectively been reduced to 0. Its a bug that has existed for a while and was never fixed, but it was a bug.

    It does not state it is a chance event. It has never once failed, ever.
    Well, in every other instance I know of when an ability is not subject to aar it is specifically mentioned in the description.

    And I'm pretty sure it has also been officially explained, either somewhere in the game or in the forum or both, that any ability that does not have a specific % chance given, but also isn't explicitly excluded from aar, always has a 100% chance to trigger.

    I get where you're coming from, but it is a bug all things considered.
    The most glaring contradiction to this is that Omega Red has an ability that is not subject to AAR while not being described as being immune to AAR when his other abilities clearly state caveats to AAR immunity. His -100% damage reduction on tentacle hits ignores ability accuracy modifiers.

    Here he is magnetized against thorns and never once takes Reflective damage.
  • ItsDamienItsDamien Posts: 1,916 ★★★★★

    Bidzy7 said:

    King Groot purifies a debuff at a cost of a fury buff. There is no mention this ability is immune to ability accuracy reduction therefore it has a flat 100% to work.


    Omega red reduces the ability accuracy of purify abilities by 10% per death spore so at 10 spores King Groot shouldn't purify debuffs as the ability to do this has effectively been reduced to 0. Its a bug that has existed for a while and was never fixed, but it was a bug.

    It does not state it is a chance event. It has never once failed, ever.
    Well, in every other instance I know of when an ability is not subject to aar it is specifically mentioned in the description.

    And I'm pretty sure it has also been officially explained, either somewhere in the game or in the forum or both, that any ability that does not have a specific % chance given, but also isn't explicitly excluded from aar, always has a 100% chance to trigger.

    I get where you're coming from, but it is a bug all things considered.
    The most glaring contradiction to this is that Omega Red has an ability that is not subject to AAR while not being described as being immune to AAR when his other abilities clearly state caveats to AAR immunity. His -100% damage reduction on tentacle hits ignores ability accuracy modifiers.

    Here he is magnetized against thorns and never once takes Reflective damage.
    You didn't factor in his spores AAR coming into play ontop. Nodes can be affected by AAR as well.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 3,696 ★★★★★
    ItsDamien said:

    Bidzy7 said:

    King Groot purifies a debuff at a cost of a fury buff. There is no mention this ability is immune to ability accuracy reduction therefore it has a flat 100% to work.


    Omega red reduces the ability accuracy of purify abilities by 10% per death spore so at 10 spores King Groot shouldn't purify debuffs as the ability to do this has effectively been reduced to 0. Its a bug that has existed for a while and was never fixed, but it was a bug.

    It does not state it is a chance event. It has never once failed, ever.
    Well, in every other instance I know of when an ability is not subject to aar it is specifically mentioned in the description.

    And I'm pretty sure it has also been officially explained, either somewhere in the game or in the forum or both, that any ability that does not have a specific % chance given, but also isn't explicitly excluded from aar, always has a 100% chance to trigger.

    I get where you're coming from, but it is a bug all things considered.
    The most glaring contradiction to this is that Omega Red has an ability that is not subject to AAR while not being described as being immune to AAR when his other abilities clearly state caveats to AAR immunity. His -100% damage reduction on tentacle hits ignores ability accuracy modifiers.

    Here he is magnetized against thorns and never once takes Reflective damage.
    You didn't factor in his spores AAR coming into play ontop. Nodes can be affected by AAR as well.
    None of that means anything.
  • walkerdogwalkerdog Posts: 437 ★★★

    Bidzy7 said:

    King Groot purifies a debuff at a cost of a fury buff. There is no mention this ability is immune to ability accuracy reduction therefore it has a flat 100% to work.


    Omega red reduces the ability accuracy of purify abilities by 10% per death spore so at 10 spores King Groot shouldn't purify debuffs as the ability to do this has effectively been reduced to 0. Its a bug that has existed for a while and was never fixed, but it was a bug.

    It does not state it is a chance event. It has never once failed, ever.
    Well, in every other instance I know of when an ability is not subject to aar it is specifically mentioned in the description.

    And I'm pretty sure it has also been officially explained, either somewhere in the game or in the forum or both, that any ability that does not have a specific % chance given, but also isn't explicitly excluded from aar, always has a 100% chance to trigger.

    I get where you're coming from, but it is a bug all things considered.
    The most glaring contradiction to this is that Omega Red has an ability that is not subject to AAR while not being described as being immune to AAR when his other abilities clearly state caveats to AAR immunity. His -100% damage reduction on tentacle hits ignores ability accuracy modifiers.

    Here he is magnetized against thorns and never once takes Reflective damage.
    100% damage reduction may be treated as "immune" and immunities ignore AAR too.
  • PulyamanPulyaman Posts: 435 ★★★
    edited July 21

    Bidzy7 said:

    King Groot purifies a debuff at a cost of a fury buff. There is no mention this ability is immune to ability accuracy reduction therefore it has a flat 100% to work.


    Omega red reduces the ability accuracy of purify abilities by 10% per death spore so at 10 spores King Groot shouldn't purify debuffs as the ability to do this has effectively been reduced to 0. Its a bug that has existed for a while and was never fixed, but it was a bug.

    It does not state it is a chance event. It has never once failed, ever.
    Sabertooth and km synergy. Reduces AAR 100% if inflicted with debuff. King groot fails to shrug off stun. @CoatHang3r
  • walkerdogwalkerdog Posts: 437 ★★★
    @Pulyaman they may have programmed it as "immune" tho - remember that because they havent strictly adopted a rigid ruleset and followed it for programming, they seem to CONSTANTLY program things to work out the way they think they should but not in a way that ensure consistent interactions. The result SEEMS to be that if the interaction is pro-player and not a huge buff, they allow it, but otherwise it gets fixed unless itd take an insane amount of work to change.

    Please note, I said seems, that's my impression of how this works out most of the time.
  • PulyamanPulyaman Posts: 435 ★★★
    walkerdog said:

    @Pulyaman they may have programmed it as "immune" tho - remember that because they havent strictly adopted a rigid ruleset and followed it for programming, they seem to CONSTANTLY program things to work out the way they think they should but not in a way that ensure consistent interactions. The result SEEMS to be that if the interaction is pro-player and not a huge buff, they allow it, but otherwise it gets fixed unless itd take an insane amount of work to change.

    Please note, I said seems, that's my impression of how this works out most of the time.

    I honestly thought it should shut down his ability, since it shuts down every other shrug off like Kingpin, agent venom and even the tenacity node.
  • Kill_GreyKill_Grey Posts: 1,828 ★★★★

    His anti-damage-back on tentacle hits is most definitely coded as a simple immunity. He can negate damage from sources he shouldn't be able to according to the wording of his ability, like havok's plasma or magik's limbo.

    If anything omega red is bugged lol.

    Havok's plasma is probably a bit understandable, but as for magik's limbo, that's were the confusion really is...
  • walkerdogwalkerdog Posts: 437 ★★★

    His anti-damage-back on tentacle hits is most definitely coded as a simple immunity. He can negate damage from sources he shouldn't be able to according to the wording of his ability, like havok's plasma or magik's limbo.

    If anything omega red is bugged lol.

    Havok's plasma is probably a bit understandable, but as for magik's limbo, that's were the confusion really is...
    He doesn't ignore all of Magik's limbo, but when he triggers it with a tentacle hit. There's some logic (The hit causes limbo) but also it's a little weird!
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 3,696 ★★★★★
    Pulyaman said:

    Bidzy7 said:

    King Groot purifies a debuff at a cost of a fury buff. There is no mention this ability is immune to ability accuracy reduction therefore it has a flat 100% to work.


    Omega red reduces the ability accuracy of purify abilities by 10% per death spore so at 10 spores King Groot shouldn't purify debuffs as the ability to do this has effectively been reduced to 0. Its a bug that has existed for a while and was never fixed, but it was a bug.

    It does not state it is a chance event. It has never once failed, ever.
    Sabertooth and km synergy. Reduces AAR 100% if inflicted with debuff. King groot fails to shrug off stun. @CoatHang3r
    Is that new because in the past that was false and people continually said it functioned that way but could never provide actual evidence. The video included in the previously linked thread specifically showed that interaction.

    Here it is again.

    @Lormif and @Ordalca bring up some very good contradictions to it being due to AAR.

    Ordalca said:

    Hey there, one of Domino's abilities is that she reduces her opponent's Ability Accuracy at the start of the fight. This can prevent him from shrugging off Debuffs like Poison.

    Regarding Domino stopping it with AA reduction: I can believe this in theory, because I have fought King Groot with Sabretooth/killmonger synergy and it prevents the debuffs from being purified.
    Where did this fight take place? I couldn’t prevent KG from shrugging ST’s stun (with KM synergy) over the course of a 3 minute fight. Here’s the fight.
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