How did Human Torch become a Top Tier Science Champion?

Disclaimer: I am not asking whether HT is good or not (that’s your opinion), but why his relative standing seems to have changed drastically recently.

When all the Fantastic Four was released, it seemed like the Thing was the consensus best of the bunch, with HT shining in niche fights (Mystic).

Abyss was released, and HT’s stock went up as being a Horseman, due to mystic countering and heal reversal.

There was also the rebalance by Kabam (https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/179325/human-torch-rebalance-information).

Still, it seemed like the opinion on HT was still that he dominates the fights he does well. When posts arose about HT v Void, or HT v Sunspot, the opinions seemed split, without HT being the clear cut favorite.

However, in recent weeks, I am seeing posts about how great HT is for so much content (without specifically referencing Mystic fights or niche fights) and how he potentially ranks behind only Quake in the Science class.

Why the recent change? it seems like opinions should have changed shortly in the months after the rebalance, if that’s the reason. But it didn’t, so there must be some other reason.

Its not like Void, CapIW, or other commonly considered top tier science champs were nerfed or neutered by new content that Kabam has put out. I don’t do AW so I don’t know if there are new defenders/nodes that HT is great for, to help explain the increase.

Thoughts on reasons his reputation has changed recently?

Comments

Iron_Patriot_is_lit

mcoc Content creators weren’t shining light on torch in his favorable matches where he was designed to excel so people generally tossed him aside. Then lagacy came and said “y’all crazy” then showcased him with his full potential and everyone went

“Ohhhh.”

At least that’s my understanding.

Fluffy_paws

More people have done Abyss and realised how good he is in it? Idk, I'm kinda curious now too.

Frosty

I agree that Human Torch is great and amazing in certain fights.

Personally though I've thought he's been great for a while and not just over the past few weeks.

There was some doubt on him when he was initially released but the same can be said about Corvus and people not understanding the full potential of the champ

Sarvanga1_

People were underestimating the no of matchups that ht can cover. Like you yourself said ht is not only good for mystic fights he is also good for any matchup in which opponent does energy attacks and he can also reverse healing pretty easily so he can be used against healing champs as well.
Also a no of new mystic champs and energy attack based champs have been released recently so his value is only increasing.

Tru100

I haven't followed the "hype" too much. But I think you point out the main factor in Abyss coming out and HT stock rising accordingly.

Some of it may be nature of science class. You have 2-3 top champs Quake, Cap, Void. I haven't seen much arguing HT better than any of them, aside from Abyss. I could see choosing HT over Void in many instances for speed.

Part of it probably also a meta shift to more specialist attack champs over all-around champs. Building a quest team now is more about identifying problematic node/champ combos and using hard counters for them vs. bringing your top 5 all-around champs. And in that case HT's stock rise cause he's best incinerate attack champ in the game. Probably same reason Red Guardian is "hyped" highly regarded, might be right behind Torch.

Colinwhitworth69

People didn't know how to best use him at first, but he's definitely a top tier champ. He's going to be my first rank 3 6 star, hopefully in two weeks. I am 4500 shards from a fully formed science cat.

Also, in the last two years Kabam has released a lot of great mystic champs (Doom, Sasquatch, Sorcerer Supreme, Longshot, Mojo, Dragon-man, BWCV), which has increased HT's value, seeing that he completely crushes mystic champs.

HT also counters regen and miss, and not one champ in the game is immune to his Nova flames.

Agent_X_zzz

Lagacy showed some great content of HT gameplay, after that people kinda liked him but when Abyss came out people realized his potential which is massive, also he is great in act 6 and AW.

DNA3000

I don't think his reputation has changed dramatically recently, I think there's been a general trend upward on HT over time. But if anything has boosted his value relatively recently, it is the fact that the direction of future higher tier content has been to replace boosted attack and health values with exotic node combinations. HT can land a lot of debuffs which makes him good against things like Diss Track, and he can counter Miss which makes him good against things like Mix Master. The future of champion value is going to lean heavily on being able to counter situations like this, and bring strong utility value along with strong damage. HT is one of the stronger science champions that combine high damage potential and strong countering utility.

You see Colossus on a similar trajectory upward. Very hard hitting champ, but also has strong utility that makes him useful in more situations. He has a good set of immunities including rare ones like cold snap. He triggers a lot of buffs (good sometimes, not good other times). He's immune to armor break, and he has armor buffs that counter certain situations.

Kill_Grey

I don't think his reputation has changed dramatically recently, I think there's been a general trend upward on HT over time. But if anything has boosted his value relatively recently, it is the fact that the direction of future higher tier content has been to replace boosted attack and health values with exotic node combinations. HT can land a lot of debuffs which makes him good against things like Diss Track, and he can counter Miss which makes him good against things like Mix Master. The future of champion value is going to lean heavily on being able to counter situations like this, and bring strong utility value along with strong damage. HT is one of the stronger science champions that combine high damage potential and strong countering utility.

You see Colossus on a similar trajectory upward. Very hard hitting champ, but also has strong utility that makes him useful in more situations. He has a good set of immunities including rare ones like cold snap. He triggers a lot of buffs (good sometimes, not good other times). He's immune to armor break, and he has armor buffs that counter certain situations.

So like...mix master has to do with evade and not miss 😂

GAMEOVERJames

Well, actually even at this moment I already took my Human Torch to 5/65 for months, he is not common in my daily quest/AQ/AW team. He is a great champ, but I would prefer to use him on specific nodes/opponents, rather than bring him anyway. I think one of the reason is that I have a better science class option——CAIW which is much more versatile~

GroundedWisdom

A couple things. First, I never subscribe to any Tier List. Secondly, people assess Champs entirely too quickly. It takes time for them to circulate so we can see the extent of their applications.

DNA3000

I don't think his reputation has changed dramatically recently, I think there's been a general trend upward on HT over time. But if anything has boosted his value relatively recently, it is the fact that the direction of future higher tier content has been to replace boosted attack and health values with exotic node combinations. HT can land a lot of debuffs which makes him good against things like Diss Track, and he can counter Miss which makes him good against things like Mix Master. The future of champion value is going to lean heavily on being able to counter situations like this, and bring strong utility value along with strong damage. HT is one of the stronger science champions that combine high damage potential and strong countering utility.

You see Colossus on a similar trajectory upward. Very hard hitting champ, but also has strong utility that makes him useful in more situations. He has a good set of immunities including rare ones like cold snap. He triggers a lot of buffs (good sometimes, not good other times). He's immune to armor break, and he has armor buffs that counter certain situations.
So like...mix master has to do with evade and not miss 😂

Yeah I was thinking about something else when I wrote that, and my wires crossed.

For the record, the thing I was thinking about is that IMIW is immune to Mix Master, something I discovered this month and had never thought about before, and I have no idea why this idea completely evaded my thought process. I stumbled into using him against Red Hulk purely by chance. Now I'm wondering what similar ideas I've completely overlooked.

Moosetiptronic

How has everyone missed cavalier difficulty EQ and the distract node level?

That has really set torch so far above other science as his 3 debuffs are so easy to access and doesn't require any skill.

Also doom as AQ boss.

There's content now that he really shines in, excuse the pun. Although he is also amazing anyway.

I took capiw to 5/65 last month and regret not taking torch or shulk instead...

Crcrcrc

I don't think his reputation has changed dramatically recently, I think there's been a general trend upward on HT over time. But if anything has boosted his value relatively recently, it is the fact that the direction of future higher tier content has been to replace boosted attack and health values with exotic node combinations. HT can land a lot of debuffs which makes him good against things like Diss Track, and he can counter Miss which makes him good against things like Mix Master. The future of champion value is going to lean heavily on being able to counter situations like this, and bring strong utility value along with strong damage. HT is one of the stronger science champions that combine high damage potential and strong countering utility.

You see Colossus on a similar trajectory upward. Very hard hitting champ, but also has strong utility that makes him useful in more situations. He has a good set of immunities including rare ones like cold snap. He triggers a lot of buffs (good sometimes, not good other times). He's immune to armor break, and he has armor buffs that counter certain situations.
So like...mix master has to do with evade and not miss 😂
Yeah I was thinking about something else when I wrote that, and my wires crossed.

For the record, the thing I was thinking about is that IMIW is immune to Mix Master, something I discovered this month and had never thought about before, and I have no idea why this idea completely evaded my thought process. I stumbled into using him against Red Hulk purely by chance. Now I'm wondering what similar ideas I've completely overlooked.

You have to do MLM combos for your ideas to not evade your thought process

Will3808

I’m not sure why he’s gone up in the last few months but I’ve always loved my human torch. My maxed 4* helped me get through so much of act 4 and 5

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GroundedWisdom

I don't think his reputation has changed dramatically recently, I think there's been a general trend upward on HT over time. But if anything has boosted his value relatively recently, it is the fact that the direction of future higher tier content has been to replace boosted attack and health values with exotic node combinations. HT can land a lot of debuffs which makes him good against things like Diss Track, and he can counter Miss which makes him good against things like Mix Master. The future of champion value is going to lean heavily on being able to counter situations like this, and bring strong utility value along with strong damage. HT is one of the stronger science champions that combine high damage potential and strong countering utility.

You see Colossus on a similar trajectory upward. Very hard hitting champ, but also has strong utility that makes him useful in more situations. He has a good set of immunities including rare ones like cold snap. He triggers a lot of buffs (good sometimes, not good other times). He's immune to armor break, and he has armor buffs that counter certain situations.
So like...mix master has to do with evade and not miss 😂
Yeah I was thinking about something else when I wrote that, and my wires crossed.

For the record, the thing I was thinking about is that IMIW is immune to Mix Master, something I discovered this month and had never thought about before, and I have no idea why this idea completely evaded my thought process. I stumbled into using him against Red Hulk purely by chance. Now I'm wondering what similar ideas I've completely overlooked.

I discovered that one after I've been using Quake. I just don't have anything beyond a Max 4*.

GAMEOVERJames

How has everyone missed cavalier difficulty EQ and the distract node level?

That has really set torch so far above other science as his 3 debuffs are so easy to access and doesn't require any skill.

Also doom as AQ boss.

There's content now that he really shines in, excuse the pun. Although he is also amazing anyway.

I took capiw to 5/65 last month and regret not taking torch or shulk instead...

CAIW is MVP for Distract node. But you need to have him awaken and Max Sig~

unknown

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Texas_11

Kabam made small tweak.

When legacy was saying he was a beast, he actually wasn’t that great. The slight buff they gave him was what pushed him over the edge. Before the small buff he was not good because he couldn’t hold temp. So when Legacy was using him, it was kinda him sticking to his guns more so then him really showcasing what he was capable of( because he wasn’t)

They explained it really well here:

The rate at which Temperature increases while charging Heavy is increased by 25%.
This may seem like a small change, but he can now go from 0-20 Temperature in approximately 2 seconds, which means he can reach Max Temperature from both a Parry, and from his SP2.
Additionally, because Temperature doesn't fall off for a few seconds when it reaches 20 (max), being able to easily reach Max Temperature has a compounding effect on how much time he spends at high Temperature overall.

Texas_11

Kabam made small tweak.

When legacy was saying he was a beast, he actually wasn’t that great. The slight buff they gave him was what pushed him over the edge. Before the small buff he was not good because he couldn’t hold temp. So when Legacy was using him, it was kinda him sticking to his guns more so then him really showcasing what he was capable of( because he wasn’t)

They explained it really well here:

The rate at which Temperature increases while charging Heavy is increased by 25%.
This may seem like a small change, but he can now go from 0-20 Temperature in approximately 2 seconds, which means he can reach Max Temperature from both a Parry, and from his SP2.
Additionally, because Temperature doesn't fall off for a few seconds when it reaches 20 (max), being able to easily reach Max Temperature has a compounding effect on how much time he spends at high Temperature overall.

To follow up on this, Before human torch max temp felt like void with a signature level of 20. They made it so it feels like void with a signature level of 200 . Quick to access his core kit. I hope that makes sense

Thicco_Mode

I don't think his reputation has changed dramatically recently, I think there's been a general trend upward on HT over time. But if anything has boosted his value relatively recently, it is the fact that the direction of future higher tier content has been to replace boosted attack and health values with exotic node combinations. HT can land a lot of debuffs which makes him good against things like Diss Track, and he can counter Miss which makes him good against things like Mix Master. The future of champion value is going to lean heavily on being able to counter situations like this, and bring strong utility value along with strong damage. HT is one of the stronger science champions that combine high damage potential and strong countering utility.

You see Colossus on a similar trajectory upward. Very hard hitting champ, but also has strong utility that makes him useful in more situations. He has a good set of immunities including rare ones like cold snap. He triggers a lot of buffs (good sometimes, not good other times). He's immune to armor break, and he has armor buffs that counter certain situations.
So like...mix master has to do with evade and not miss 😂
Yeah I was thinking about something else when I wrote that, and my wires crossed.

For the record, the thing I was thinking about is that IMIW is immune to Mix Master, something I discovered this month and had never thought about before, and I have no idea why this idea completely evaded my thought process. I stumbled into using him against Red Hulk purely by chance. Now I'm wondering what similar ideas I've completely overlooked.

maybe you means tunnel vision?

unknown

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Worknprogress

He's still niche but for those fights he's amazing and when you threw in how useful he is for some Abyss fights, people started paying more attention

Cashier

HT is a Niche champ

Masterpuff

A couple things. First, I never subscribe to any Tier List. Secondly, people assess Champs entirely too quickly. It takes time for them to circulate so we can see the extent of their applications.

Yeah, Tier Lists are garbage.

HT is a Niche champ

Nah.

Cashier

A couple things. First, I never subscribe to any Tier List. Secondly, people assess Champs entirely too quickly. It takes time for them to circulate so we can see the extent of their applications.
Yeah, Tier Lists are garbage.
HT is a Niche champ

HT is a Niche champ
Nah.

Puff....

unknown

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Nojokejaym

If people stop listening to content creators and start playing the champs themselves they’ll know if a champ is actually good or not. People gotta start having a mind of there own.

Masterpuff

HT is a Niche champ
HT with prefight wa able to take down Intercepts protection 75% Rhino without any truble. That's how huge is damage output is

I’d place him #2 science with tha prefight, but you can’t use it Often.