Interaction of Ability Accuracy with Nodes is Fundamentally Flawed

I think my point is best explained with examples:

1) Ability Accuracy reduction from champions like Domino, Archangel, Magneto and from Concussion interact with Matador in a very weird way. They fail the part of the node that reads "the attacker gains 1 bar of power every time the defender activates a special attack". They don't fail the part of the node that reads "this is the only way the Attacker can gain power in this fight". So if you have 100% AA reduction you are power locked. This is especially funny in the Act 7 Rhino boss fight where concussion is a viable way to get around Tantrum, but there's also Matador and Power Shield.

2) Ability Accuracy reduction, namely Quake, can bypass Window of Opportunity but not Stunning Reflection.

3) Ability Accuracy reduction can fail Got A Light (you have a chance to incinerate the opponent with your attacks). This happened to me when my Aegon reached a high enough combo in the Act 7 path, which was annoying because the path also has Pleasure to Burn.

These examples highlight two fundamental problems. Firstly, reducing the ability accuracy of the defender can shut down nodes that help the attacker. In some cases it will shut down part of a node that helps you and not shut down the other part that is annoying for you. I find it very hard to believe that this is intentional because it makes no sense. I think it's more likely that Kabam doesn't fully understand how their own code works. Bottom line is, ability accuracy reduction should not shut down nodes or parts of nodes that help you.
Secondly, there needs to be more transparency around which nodes are affected by ability accuracy and which ones aren't, perhaps by including that in node descriptions. In any case, it shouldn't be a system of trial and error to figure out if it will work or not. I would be interested to hear what others think about this, and I hope kabam will figure out ability accuracy and nodes because it doesn't seem like they have.

Comments

gforcefan

I think my point is best explained with examples:

Secondly, there needs to be more transparency around which nodes are affected by ability accuracy and which ones aren't, perhaps by including that in node descriptions. In any case, it shouldn't be a system of trial and error to figure out if it will work or not. I would be interested to hear what others think about this, and I hope kabam will figure out ability accuracy and nodes because it doesn't seem like they have.

This is 100% true. If things were described more accurately/consistently, then it would be easier to know when there is a bug.

The first part of your post is also spot on. I turned pacify off because it was screwing up so many Cav EQ nodes. There are people who keep defending the interaction saying ability accuracy applies to everything. But as you pointed out, it doesn't. If my AA has 3 neuros on the defender, I do not start gaining power.

Etjama

Why should AAR only work to benefit you? In fact, when it actually benefits you is circumstancial and opinion based. It's working exactly as it should.

Denslo500

@Etjama they aren’t complaining that they have negative consequences.
They are complaining about the inconsistent application of AA reduction within an individual node.

Mauled

I agree with the points but the bottom line here is that you'd probably have to rewrite half of the game to put everything on the same page. I have noticed that more recent nodes seem to interact relatively consistently, for the most part anyway.

Etjama

@Etjama they aren’t complaining that they have negative consequences.
They are complaining about the inconsistent application of AA reduction within an individual node.

Of course there's inconsistence. The chance to ignore the node, beneficial or not, is only as high as your AAR.

DNA3000

@Etjama they aren’t complaining that they have negative consequences.
They are complaining about the inconsistent application of AA reduction within an individual node.

Sometimes ability accuracy reduction seems inconsistent because people just think ability accuracy reduction is just "shut stuff down." Ability accuracy reduction reduces the chances for things that require ability accuracy to occur. For example, the first one doesn't seem inconsistent to me. Matador does two things: it causes the attacker to gain a bar of power when the defender activates a special attack. And it suppresses all other forms of power gain. The first part is an effect that has a trigger - it happens when the defender activates a special attack - so it probably actually has ability accuracy (which is the chance for an ability or effect to trigger). But the power suppression doesn't "activate" on anything, and thus probably doesn't have any ability accuracy to reduce. A similar thing is probably true for stunning reflection: the stun shield itself has no ability accuracy, and I doubt if players want the cooldown to be affected by ability accuracy reduction so that is probably also unaffected by AAR (although I'm not sure about that one).

Not everything has ability accuracy. That could probably be explained better, but it isn't inconsistent. Which is to say, the game engine itself isn't, and can't even be inconsistent. It applies ability accuracy reduction on everything with ability accuracy. It can't do anything else.

Etjama

I actually agree with most of what you've said. The fact that AAR effects some nodes but not others is kind of weird. But this part is just wrong:

"Bottom line is, ability accuracy reduction should not shut down nodes or parts of nodes that help you."

DNA3000

Firstly, reducing the ability accuracy of the defender can shut down nodes that help the attacker. In some cases it will shut down part of a node that helps you and not shut down the other part that is annoying for you. I find it very hard to believe that this is intentional because it makes no sense. I think it's more likely that Kabam doesn't fully understand how their own code works. Bottom line is, ability accuracy reduction should not shut down nodes or parts of nodes that help you.

There's no logical reason for this to be true. The idea that all effects should benefit the player, or even the instigator, doesn't hold true in general. Willpower, for example, turns debuffs into healing sources. Would you say that this is illogical, because a debuff should always benefit the debuffer, so when a defender lands debuffs on the player Willpower should never heal for more than the debuff punishes?

Effects like ability accuracy reduction are just neutral effects that can benefit the player and can also hurt the player circumstantially. Kabam is fully aware that sometimes these effects can have side effects that run opposite to the direct effects.

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Hype4Avengers

@DNA3000 I can agree with you that ability accuracy reduction doesn't always have to be beneficial, that is wishful on my part. Here's a slightly different question though, why should all nodes be abilities of the defender when some are clearly the attacker's abilities, like the part of Got A Light where you apply incinerates?

I don't agree with you about "AAR only affecting things with ability accuracy" being consistent. In my opinion it's incredibly arbitrary which nodes have ability accuracy and which don't. Why shouldn't stun immunity have ability accuracy each time a stun is attempted? In your explanation of Matador and the triggers, it can also easily be argued that the power suppression has a 'trigger' each time the attacker would gain power. Why shouldn't the power suppression be failed on 'triggering' power gain by landing a hit?

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Will3808

I definitely agree on the first one. I was doing a matador, power shield path in v4 and it was a pain when I was using mags because I could only do damage off of his awakened ability.

Agent_X_zzz

There is a way to time WOO (window of oppor) with quake their is a strategy, you act like its random lol. WOO and Stunning reflection work differently. But can work for both

Djin

Ability Accuracy Reduction will stop abilities from activating. It can't stop abilities from working that are already active.

You can stop a bleed debuff by AAR but when it activates, AAR can't stop it from ticking.

Madator's power suppression is activated at the start of the fight. It's like a bleed debuff. Once active AAR can't do anything. But AAR can stop you from gaining power when special attack is launched.

See this-

Lock On was active on Juggs and Falc hit him.
He shouldn't activate Unstoppable because of DAAR. But he activated. Because Unstoppable is like that bleed debuff. Once active AAR can't do anything. Same applies to Falter which causes attacks to miss.

DNA3000

I don't agree with you about "AAR only affecting things with ability accuracy" being consistent. In my opinion it's incredibly arbitrary which nodes have ability accuracy and which don't. Why shouldn't stun immunity have ability accuracy each time a stun is attempted? In your explanation of Matador and the triggers, it can also easily be argued that the power suppression has a 'trigger' each time the attacker would gain power. Why shouldn't the power suppression be failed on 'triggering' power gain by landing a hit?

Most of the time immunity effects don't have ability accuracy. No amount of ability accuracy reduction can ever make Colossus gain a bleed debuff, because his immunity to bleed is not something that triggers with an ability accuracy.

You say it can be argued that the power suppression in Matador has a trigger, but remember that this isn't hypothetical perspective: the game engine itself has one single absolute answer to this question. Either the power suppression is triggered, or it isn't and is just always there. This is a statement of mechanics, not philosophy.

So the question is, do you think Matador's power suppression was created in such a way so that it accounts for all possible ways you can gain power and triggers on every single one of them? Do you think if you hit the target, power suppression triggers to suppress offensive combat power, and when you are hit power suppression triggers again and suppresses defensive combat power, and when you proc a power gain buff power suppression triggers again and suppresses power gain buff effects and when you land a power steal effect power suppression triggers gain and suppresses the power steal power gain, plus every other possible way to gain power? If you were the power designer, would you simply apply a power suppression effect period, or would you create a power suppression effect with a dozen different triggers? Can you even list every single trigger clause necessary to ensure Matador works as observed?

We can't always know from observation how effects are implemented without careful study, because there are often multiple ways to achieve the same effect. But sometimes the in-game effects lend themselves to believing that one way is far more likely than all the others, and in this case Matador's power suppression seems logically to be something that isn't triggered, because it is far easier to list all the ways you can get power (there's just one) than to list all the ways Matador prevents power gain. So while this may not be obvious to the average player who doesn't think about the game mechanics, it isn't weirdly inconsistent per se because there is an obvious line of thought that suggests the mechanics should work in the way they actually work in-game.

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xNig

How AAR interacts with Nodes depends largely on whether the nodes are conditional or fixed.

For example, Window of Opportunity vs Stunning Reflection.

Window of Opportunity has a cooldown, and is not persistent throughout the fight. Therefore, it is a conditional node that can be affected by AAR since AAR affects abilities triggering at the point of occurrence.

Whereas Stunning Reflection triggers at the start of the fight and hence not affected by AAR (only at the start of the fight) unless you use champs with built-in AAR (eg Blade with Danger Sense).

This can also be observed when Blade shuts down nodes (eg Bleed). I believe, in layman’s language, how the nodes activation was coded was:
- Fight starts. Champions run to each other.
- Game activates all persistent nodes (eg Heal block, Bleed, etc). This is subjected to AAR at the point of fight start.
- Game activates all conditional nodes if conditions are fulfilled.

I’ve not tested this but I have a feeling that if you’re able to use AA, shut down Stun Reflection with Poison, then convert them into neuros, stun reflection will likely be always on cooldown as long as the refresh is affected by AAR. (The cooldown being a conditional node.)

Also, nodes are part of the defenders’ abilities, and therefore, should be affected by AAR. There’s even a special node that stops defenders having their AAR reduced.

Voltolos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV5sCNKYOug
I found a little demonstration of Matador failing to power lock blade

Dragon_SlayerND13

Yeah but to people that say ability accuracy is working perfectly and all why is per say my ghost once in a while not criting against champs with some critical resistance but corvus, if it isn't a glancing defender agaisnt him, he always crits no matter what which in a way is normal when an ability says guaranteed but it should then apply to every champ that has a guaranteed ability. And I know guaranteed is coded like just super high like 300% crit chance or sth but still it is weird to ee some of your guaranteed abilities fail from time to time.

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DNA3000

Yeah but to people that say ability accuracy is working perfectly and all why is per say my ghost once in a while not criting against champs with some critical resistance but corvus, if it isn't a glancing defender agaisnt him, he always crits no matter what which in a way is normal when an ability says guaranteed but it should then apply to every champ that has a guaranteed ability. And I know guaranteed is coded like just super high like 300% crit chance or sth but still it is weird to ee some of your guaranteed abilities fail from time to time.

Critical hit chance is not ability accuracy. Ability accuracy is something very specific. All champions have a base ability accuracy, which by default is 100% (there are a few rare champs with higher than 100% for various reasons). It is basically a stat, just one that is not normally visible to the player. *Some* abilities and effects have what I would call (but the game doesn't necessarily) triggers. When an ability or effect has a trigger, that trigger *sometimes* has a chance to trigger. That chance is that ability or effect's ability accuracy (rarely, this is a hard coded thing that isn't, and is unaffected by ability accuracy; generally this is called out in the description). If an ability has a 50% chance to trigger and the champion has 100% ability accuracy, the ability has a 50% chance to trigger: 100% x 50%. If the champion's ability accuracy is debuffed down to 75%, then that ability has a 37.5% chance to trigger: 75% x 50%. That's how ability accuracy works, and how ability accuracy debuffs work. You aren't actually debuffing the ability, you're debuffing the champion, and that causes all of that champion's abilities to trigger less often for the abilities that rely upon ability accuracy to trigger at all.

However, not all percent chance things are ability accuracy. Critical hit chance is not an ability accuracy, and is completely unaffected by changes in ability accuracy. Critical hit chance is determined by critical hit rating, a completely independent stat from ability accuracy.

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DNA3000

I agree that unless explicitly stated all nodes should be affected by AAR

See above. Nodes aren't affected by ability accuracy at all. Champions are, because champions have an ability accuracy stat that can be changed. They are the only things that can be affected by ability accuracy reduction. Whether the effects of a node change with AAR depend on whether those abilities themselves rely on ability accuracy in the first place.

Think of the nodes as ability grants. When a defender is sitting on a node that has a node buff, that node buff grants that champion an ability. That champion then uses that ability as if that champion was created with that ability. In general, you should expect the node to function as if the champion itself simply had those abilities all along. Because in point of fact, that's how the game works.

So imagine a champion had an ability to immediately passively lock out all power from its opponent, and then grant them a bar of power when they used a special attack. If you were fighting such a champion and you fell under this passive power lock, would you expect ability accuracy reductions you apply to that champion during the fight to affect that initial passive effect that happened at the start of the fight? Probably not. Because ability accuracy reduction can only affect when something triggers, and that passive power lock is already there.

If people think of nodes as some external force that is "constantly affecting" the fight, then that's the wrong mental model. Nodes grant champions abilities, and those abilities are used by the champion as if they had them all along. Matador gives the champion an ability to immediately passively power lock the opponent right at the start of the fight. It doesn't keep "jumping in" and causing power to behave differently than normal. The only thing I would expect would have any chance to affect Matador are ability accuracy reductions that take place *before* the start of the fight. Not even at the start, but before the start. And even then, there would be the question of which came first. But once the fight actually starts, it is too late to do anything about the passive power lock.

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DNA3000

I agree that unless explicitly stated all nodes should be affected by AAR
See above. Nodes aren't affected by ability accuracy at all. Champions are, because champions have an ability accuracy stat that can be changed. They are the only things that can be affected by ability accuracy reduction. Whether the effects of a node change with AAR depend on whether those abilities themselves rely on ability accuracy in the first place.

Think of the nodes as ability grants. When a defender is sitting on a node that has a node buff, that node buff grants that champion an ability. That champion then uses that ability as if that champion was created with that ability. In general, you should expect the node to function as if the champion itself simply had those abilities all along. Because in point of fact, that's how the game works.

So imagine a champion had an ability to immediately passively lock out all power from its opponent, and then grant them a bar of power when they used a special attack. If you were fighting such a champion and you fell under this passive power lock, would you expect ability accuracy reductions you apply to that champion during the fight to affect that initial passive effect that happened at the start of the fight? Probably not. Because ability accuracy reduction can only affect when something triggers, and that passive power lock is already there.

If people think of nodes as some external force that is "constantly affecting" the fight, then that's the wrong mental model. Nodes grant champions abilities, and those abilities are used by the champion as if they had them all along. Matador gives the champion an ability to immediately passively power lock the opponent right at the start of the fight. It doesn't keep "jumping in" and causing power to behave differently than normal. The only thing I would expect would have any chance to affect Matador are ability accuracy reductions that take place *before* the start of the fight. Not even at the start, but before the start. And even then, there would be the question of which came first. But once the fight actually starts, it is too late to do anything about the passive power lock.
I understand this but your explanation out it into better perspective.

But even champ abilities may or may not be affected by AAR sometimes. Like before the change King Groots debuff shrug was not affected by AAR evn though never stated.And Claire stance change in my experience has never been affected by AAR when though never stated in his abilities

Yes, that's correct. Some abilities and effects have, and are affected by ability accuracy. Some don't. Also, some things in the game aren't even abilities in the technical sense, and thus cannot have ability accuracy. Offensive power gain, for example, is not an ability. Adrenalin (the 6* special feature) is not an ability in the technical sense and is thus also completely unaffected by ability accuracy.

In fact, Adrenalin not being ability allows it to do something else that otherwise never happens. Adrenalin can heal you after the fight is over. The combat engine straight up halts all abilities and effects that alter your health bar the moment either champion in a fight dies. However, Adrenalin is not an ability, so the combat engine doesn't halt it at the end of a fight. If you kill something with a special attack, all your healing stops as soon as the defender dies. But Adrenalin keeps working right through the end of the special attack animation.

Since all healing should stop the instant the fight ends, you could argue this is a bugged behavior that just happens to benefit the player (since the computer AI doesn't get Adrenalin). But on a technical level, it makes perfect sense. Adrenalin isn't an ability (or an effect), so it is unaffected by the halting of all healing abilities and effects.

Kill_Grey

All this talk about AAR makes me wonder why Archangel is so damn bugged 🤔

IRQ

Just one thing regarding the debate about continuous vs activated/timed node effects: AAR can make attacker ignore Safeguard damage cap.

Oddly enough so far I could only repeat this interaction on RtL and only using Domino, so maybe the problem is somewhere there.

DNA3000

Yeah but to people that say ability accuracy is working perfectly and all why is per say my ghost once in a while not criting against champs with some critical resistance but corvus, if it isn't a glancing defender agaisnt him, he always crits no matter what which in a way is normal when an ability says guaranteed but it should then apply to every champ that has a guaranteed ability. And I know guaranteed is coded like just super high like 300% crit chance or sth but still it is weird to ee some of your guaranteed abilities fail from time to time.
Critical hit chance is not ability accuracy. Ability accuracy is something very specific. All champions have a base ability accuracy, which by default is 100% (there are a few rare champs with higher than 100% for various reasons). It is basically a stat, just one that is not normally visible to the player. *Some* abilities and effects have what I would call (but the game doesn't necessarily) triggers. When an ability or effect has a trigger, that trigger *sometimes* has a chance to trigger. That chance is that ability or effect's ability accuracy (rarely, this is a hard coded thing that isn't, and is unaffected by ability accuracy; generally this is called out in the description). If an ability has a 50% chance to trigger and the champion has 100% ability accuracy, the ability has a 50% chance to trigger: 100% x 50%. If the champion's ability accuracy is debuffed down to 75%, then that ability has a 37.5% chance to trigger: 75% x 50%. That's how ability accuracy works, and how ability accuracy debuffs work. You aren't actually debuffing the ability, you're debuffing the champion, and that causes all of that champion's abilities to trigger less often for the abilities that rely upon ability accuracy to trigger at all.

However, not all percent chance things are ability accuracy. Critical hit chance is not an ability accuracy, and is completely unaffected by changes in ability accuracy. Critical hit chance is determined by critical hit rating, a completely independent stat from ability accuracy.
How are we able to prevent evade with slow against force of will opponets?

To be frank, that's one I haven't looked at. That interaction does defy the description of Slow debuffs, which state that they reduce Unstoppable and Evade ability accuracy. There's two possibilities I can think of. The first one is that it is a technical loophole. Slow targets two specific effects rather than more general ability accuracy, so maybe Force of Will only confers immunity to effects that change the champion's ability accuracy stat, which Slow does not. Or the other possibility is that Slow turns Unstoppable and Slow triggers off completely, and whoever wrote the description of Slow in the game text used incorrect terminology.

Either way, this would be a case where the game doesn't behave as it claims to, so that would be an inconsistency in ability accuracy mechanics that should be looked at. I'll see what I can turn up.

Hype4Avengers

You say it can be argued that the power suppression in Matador has a trigger, but remember that this isn't hypothetical perspective: the game engine itself has one single absolute answer to this question. Either the power suppression is triggered, or it isn't and is just always there. This is a statement of mechanics, not philosophy.

I've never said that what happens in the fight is inconsistent with the game engine, that's obviously not possible. I'm saying the game engine's answer to what is an ability and what should have ability accuracy is inconsistent and not transparent at all.

Firstly, you have the video above of Blade gaining power normally on Matador. I'm honestly not sure what's going on in that fight, maybe it's a bug, but it does question your whole idea of Matador power suppression not being an ability.

Secondly, you've brought up this theory of trying to figure out how each node is programmed to figure out if it should have ability accuracy or not. I completely agree with you that best coding practice for Matador would be to have a constant power suppression throughout the fight instead of 'triggering' it every time the attacker would gain power. While this line of reasoning can defend the Matador interaction it doesn't explain others:

Most places in the game where nodes have damage reduction, this is done through protection or weakness. You see this in Ebb and Flow, Overclocked, Split Atom etc. So the consistent way to execute damage reduction in nodes like Pleasure to Burn would also be to have a protection or weakness that is removed when incinerate is applied and triggers again when the incinerate falls off. This is in no way convoluted to program, and would arguably be more efficient than an if statement checking for incinerates every time damage is done. Yet I'm pretty sure this is not the way Pleasure to Burn is programmed since no protection or weakness is shown like other nodes now show, and so the node is not affected by ability accuracy even though the logical implementation of the node has 'triggers' and should have ability accuracy.

Someone else has also raised the example of Safeguard which should be a constant damage cap like in LoL or AoL but instead can be bypassed by AAR.

My point is that the 'triggers' theory you have given and theories given by others like conditional vs fixed explain some interactions but not others. (Safeguard is fixed but has AA and Pleasure to Burn is conditional but does not have AA). This whole issue would be much simpler if Kabam were just transparent in telling us how they decide what has ability accuracy and what does not, instead of us proposing our own theories that we test with trial and error.