What are Passive / Active buffs?

I've been playing for a while but never understood the difference. With the icon changes in the latest update, now there's a visual difference so I guess I should care?

Can anyone explain exactly what this means? Nobody in my alliance really knows either...

Comments

Eb0ny-O-M4w

A buff is something that directly increases a champ ability. Fury increases attack, armor up increases armor, etc. Buffs can be nullified and interact with other champs abilities.

Passive abilities are things like "increases your attack", but don't actual trigger a buff on you. Passive abilities can't be nullified and also don't interact as buffs. However they still interact with other champions abilities (for example, your enemy reducing your offensive ability accuracy and prevent you from trigger a passive ability like Punisher Open Wound)

JasonMBryant

I still don't understand why one thing would be called active and another would be called passive.

Viper1987

JasonMBryant wrote: »

I still don't understand why one thing would be called active and another would be called passive.

Because active buffs can be affected via nullify, stagger, and fate seal, whereas passive buffs cannot.

JasonMBryant

Okay, but why are some buffs considered passive and others active? How could I look at any given buff and figure out which one it is? Did they just look at all the buffs they had and randomly say, "These are active and those are passive," or is there a pattern?

Eb0ny-O-M4w

Is something you will know after playing a while and build up your profile

jaylerd

Not really. I've been playing for a few years and it's still unclear. Sometimes regen is passive, sometimes it isn't. Old Man Logan's regen cannot be nullified, but it's not passive. Limbo and Madness are passive, Nightcrawler's timer to switch to swashbuckler appears as passive, but it's not a buff or debuff. However, Nebula's timer to stack charges isn't passive - I guess because it can be reset via attacks? Coldsnap is passive but it can be negated by Crossbones and Agent Venom. It's unclear.

The icon changes make it a little more confusing in that it makes me pay attention to something that is both inconsistent and ill-defined. I guess I just gotta live with it - maybe the icon change will help clarify things eventually.

Eb0ny-O-M4w

NC timer is just that. A timer. The charge tells you in what mode NC is currently in.
As for coldsnap ... is a debuff

DNA3000

jaylerd wrote: »

Not really. I've been playing for a few years and it's still unclear. Sometimes regen is passive, sometimes it isn't. Old Man Logan's regen cannot be nullified, but it's not passive. Limbo and Madness are passive, Nightcrawler's timer to switch to swashbuckler appears as passive, but it's not a buff or debuff. However, Nebula's timer to stack charges isn't passive - I guess because it can be reset via attacks? Coldsnap is passive but it can be negated by Crossbones and Agent Venom. It's unclear.

OML's regeneration is a passive: it is designated so in the character description.

I think the difference between a passive and active ability is technical, and doesn't easily map directly to player expectations. Based on what I can tell from experience, I believe the difference is that passive abilities which include buffs and debuffs are not triggered. They just are there. Active abilities have a trigger: they happen when something happens, like a critical hit.

The catch is that sometimes a passive ability is itself placed upon a target by another ability which can make it seem like the passive is "triggered." Passive buffs generally cannot be nullified by opponents. But passive debuffs apparently can be nullified by the entity they reside on or at least removed by some mechanism.

There are always exceptions to every rule in this game, however.

Ryanbeatyou

The best example of the ambiguity with regards to passive/active abilities(don't call them buffs when referring to many effects) is debuff immune champs. Powerburn from vision affects a champ who is debuff immune, but powerburn from Dr voodoo cannot. There is no specific buff or debuff with vision, it's just an ability he has, and thus can be described as passive. Dr voodoo has 1-3 buffs activated by his sp2, which gives him the ability to powerburn, but this is not able to affect debuff immune champs even though there is no debuff. It is something that has me scratching my head

EDIT this is further confused by Crossbones 'passive' ability to bypass defensive ability accuracy with each stack of fury, which does affect debuff immune champs. If it only activates while I have fury, what's the difference between Dr voodoo powerburn and that?

Viper1987

Ryanbeatyou wrote: »

The best example of the ambiguity with regards to passive/active abilities(don't call them buffs when referring to many effects) is debuff immune champs. Powerburn from vision affects a champ who is debuff immune, but powerburn from Dr voodoo cannot. There is no specific buff or debuff with vision, it's just an ability he has, and thus can be described as passive. Dr voodoo has 1-3 buffs activated by his sp2, which gives him the ability to powerburn, but this is not able to affect debuff immune champs even though there is no debuff. It is something that has me scratching my head

EDIT this is further confused by Crossbones 'passive' ability to bypass defensive ability accuracy with each stack of fury, which does affect debuff immune champs. If it only activates while I have fury, what's the difference between Dr voodoo powerburn and that?

There is a very distinct difference between DV and Vision. DV actually places a power drain debuff on the opponent that drains power over time. Vision’s power burn is just an effect that happens and does not place a debuff. That’s why debuff immune nodes are immune to DV’s power drain and not Vision’s power burn.

DNA3000

Ryanbeatyou wrote: »

The best example of the ambiguity with regards to passive/active abilities(don't call them buffs when referring to many effects) is debuff immune champs. Powerburn from vision affects a champ who is debuff immune, but powerburn from Dr voodoo cannot. There is no specific buff or debuff with vision, it's just an ability he has, and thus can be described as passive. Dr voodoo has 1-3 buffs activated by his sp2, which gives him the ability to powerburn, but this is not able to affect debuff immune champs even though there is no debuff. It is something that has me scratching my head

EDIT this is further confused by Crossbones 'passive' ability to bypass defensive ability accuracy with each stack of fury, which does affect debuff immune champs. If it only activates while I have fury, what's the difference between Dr voodoo powerburn and that?

Vision's power burn is not a passive ability because it is not an ability. Vision's special attacks have power burn as an effect of the power. I believe the oddities with regard to some power burns and drains working on debuff immune nodes and others not working are not intended and the result of under-the-hood differences in how the abilities were implemented. I suspect that Vision's power burn is a direct effect, and Voodoo's power burn is somehow implemented as an invisible power burning debuff that can't be placed on the debuff immune node. It may have something to do with the mechanics of Voodoo's special two, ability accuracy modifications, and power burn mechanics.

Crossbones is a completely different situation. I do not believe that Crossbones' defensive ability accuracy reduction is an actual debuff. It is more of the case that when Crossbones hits the target, the target's defensive ability accuracy at the moment of the hit acts as if it is lower for any defensive power that might be triggered by that hit. There's no actual debuff "placed" upon the target. In other words, when you have physical resistance that causes the damage you take when the opponent hits you to be lowered. But that doesn't mean you debuffed their damage, it means their damage was reduced as a part of how combat mechanics work. Crossbones' DAA reduction is a similar kind of "on the fly" reduction. Think of it as defensive ability accuracy resistance. Crossbones doesn't actually touch it or modify it. Crossbones simply behaves as if it was lower at that moment.

JasonMBryant

Basically, this is just a giant mess. Some players who really, really study all the descriptions of the champs understand it to varying degrees, but many players don't understand it.

I'm just going to ignore the new difference in the timers. It's more of a distraction than a help.

Ryanbeatyou

@DNA3000 I would guess you're right, its just a symptom of the system they built in which they are constantly adding new and diverse abilities with a substructure that is dozens of patches on a 3 year old foundation.
Let's review. Power drain from Hawkeye, Civil Warrior, Spark, and others that does a chunk all at the same time, totally fine with that working vs debuff immune. There's no debuff.
Power Drain from Ghost Rider and others that applies a slow drain over time, totally fine with that not affecting debuff immune. There is a debuff.
Why not stick to this definition across the board? Answer: Because it was easier to implement DV powerburn buff as both a buff and debuff, it can be nullified, procs MD, and debuff immune cannot be affected.

Ryanbeatyou

I would be curious to know what the interation between dormammu medium combo ender vs debuff immune. Does it work with imbued buff? Without?

Spurgeon14

It's just a BS way of Kabam screwing their player base over.

mrstyles

Passive simply means that nothing you did nor did your opponent do to cause the effect. A buff is something either you or your opponent did to cause the effect. For example, soul prison is a passive effect because it just happened, you didn’t cause any damage or receive any. But a Fury is a buff because it only happens when you attack your opponent.

Zuro

Passive simply means that nothing you did nor did your opponent do to cause the effect. A buff is something either you or your opponent did to cause the effect. For example, soul prison is a passive effect because it just happened, you didn’t cause any damage or receive any. But a Fury is a buff because it only happens when you attack your opponent.

I doubt he'll even see this thread maybe because...he is banned

Demonzfyre

Why would you necro a 2 year old post.

DNA3000

Passive simply means that nothing you did nor did your opponent do to cause the effect. A buff is something either you or your opponent did to cause the effect. For example, soul prison is a passive effect because it just happened, you didn’t cause any damage or receive any. But a Fury is a buff because it only happens when you attack your opponent.

For the record, this isn't correct. "Passive" and "Active" are adjectives that mean different things depending on whether you're talking about abilities or effect. When it comes to effects, a passive effect is an effect that is not a buff or debuff. This has nothing to do with how the effect is triggered. The only difference between passive effects and buff/debuff effects is that things that affect buffs or debuffs, or are affected by buffs or debuffs, do not interact with passives. "Active effects" isn't a term commonly used, and is sometimes used to refer to buffs and debuffs. But the reason this isn't used is because "Active" has another meaning that conflicts with this usage: an "active effect" is one that is currently doing something. The opposite of "active effect" is "not active effect" not "passive effect."

An example of a passive fury is She-Hulk's fury effects. These are fury effects, they are triggered by an event (when attacked or attacking) but are not Buffs: they are passives.

On the other hand, when it comes to Abilities there are Passive abilities and Active abilities. Once again, these are not antonyms or opposites; these terms mean two completely different things. A Passive ability is one that is always on: it does not need to be triggered. However, an Active ability is one that actually is on. In other words, Passive abilities are always active, that's what makes them passive. But Abilities that are triggered are sometimes active (on) and sometimes not active (off).

Fundamentally, "Active" and "Passive" are not opposites or antonyms. "Active" refers to when something is on or off, and the opposite of "Active" is "Not Active" or "Off." Passive refers to whether something is triggered or not when it comes to Abilities and whether something is Explicitly Typed as Buff or Debuff when it comes to effects. The opposite of Passive for Abilities is "Triggered When" or descriptions that mean "When X Then." The opposite of Passive for effects is "everything else: Buff or Debuff in particular."

EthanGamer

Glowing ring around it means active, no glowing ring means passive. You should know what is a buff and debuff. It is that simple.

Championcritic

In the defense of those offenders who can't tell the difference, it's not like kabam have made an official post highlighting the difference between debuffs and negative passive effect. Rather it is something that as we play the game, we read the champion abilities that say inflict debuff/passive, then we take note of what the icon looks like when the debuff/passive is inflicted, and we learn the trend from there. I guess hundreds of people are ALOT slower at noticing this trend.