Is there a problem with the buff program?

This isn't another post saying all buffs are bad, or necessarily a complaint about Guilly's buff. It's more of a look into the philosophy of how Kabam are deciding which level of buff to give to champions.

I think the issue with this months buff is what level of update they chose for Guilly. I still stand by my comment that this overhaul could have been made good if the abilities had made her better, but I now think it was just an unnecessary risk.

Aside from Hood (which I'm inclined to believe was a one-off) Moderate and Tune ups have never made a champion worse in a significant area. Even Nova, widely considered as the worst buff of the program, didn't make him worse it just took him from a 4/10 champion to a 4.1/10 champion. The only case I think that can be made is Bishop no longer having power gain on block. But in the grand scheme of things that wasn't why people ranked him up, it was a nice to have ability.

So this means that moderate and tune up buffs have almost no risk to them. If you take a champion with a few decent abilities and give them a moderate or tune up buff there is almost 0 chance of them being made worse in any area. But when we have an overhaul, there is a much greater license for Kabam to change or alter abilities because... well, that's the point of them.

The issue therefore, is when Kabam select a champion for an overhaul that could do with just a moderate update. I don't think this has ever happened before, if you look through the list of previous overhauls none of them have been really that useful, or conducive to a moderate. We've even had it the other way around, when champions could have been up for an overhaul, but have been made much better with just a moderate, look at Yellowjacket or Ultron. They could easily have had an overhaul, but didn't. And I think that's a good thing.

But with Guilly, her heal, Sp3 and heal reversal were actually good abilities, they just didn't quite come together in the best way without full synergy teams, and she needed that last little bump of utility. If you ask me, that sounds like the perfect description of a moderate, or even a tune up update.

When Guilly was chosen for an overhaul, a lot of people saw this problem. She already had good abilities to build from, why should you waste an overhaul space with her? Ant Man has way less abilities. But I don't think anyone saw why it was a problem, or at least the underlying, more sinister reason. Because she had more abilities, Kabam had a much greater risk when overhauling her to make her just as good, if not worse. If Kabam overhauled Ant Man, seriously, how could they make him worse? He has no abilities to remove! And that, I think is my overall point.

Overhaul champions should be champions with the absolute bare minimum. Cap Marvel OG, Cap WW2, Deadpool X Force etc. Champions that cannot get good, useful abilities removed. Not champions like Domino, Ronan or Loki. Who have good, useful abilities but just need a little bump.

So where is this issue coming from? I think I know. I've compiled a (subjective) list of the remaining champions who need buffs and which level I would personally give them. Now, I know it would vary person to person, but I think we can agree on general numbers plus or minus a few. But I came up with 26 champions needing tune-ups, 28 needing moderate updates and 42 needing overhauls. Feel free to do your own and compare numbers to mine, and if anyone is more interested in what I think, feel free to ask, I can post it below.

However, in their most recent cadence update post, Kabam said: "We’ll continue to update 2 Champions per month until we come to the point where we have worked through our Moderate/Value only Champions and will need to reassess when there are only overhauls to be finished." Implying there are more overhauls than the tune ups and moderates put together. (With an overhaul and one of moderate/tuneup per month, if there were X tune ups, and Y moderates, then there would be more than X+Y overhauls in order to still have overhauls remaining at the end of the moderates and tune/ups).

But I only came up with 42 needing overhauls, which isn't more than the tuneups and moderates put together. If my list of champion buffs was put through their current schedule, I would run out of overhauls first, not tune ups or moderates. Kabam will have more overhauls left at the end of this schedule.

So what does this mean? I think it means that Kabam are overestimating how many champions need overhauls. They must have around 55 or more overhauls planned in order to still need to have overhauls at the end of the schedule. Meaning there are between 10-20 champions that Kabam have on their list of what champions need which level of buff that do not need an overhaul. I think Guillotine was one of these champions. Champions that could very well have been buffed, sans risk, with a moderate update.

As a result of this, it seems there are a group of champions that could likely be fine with a moderate update, that have been put down as needing an overhaul. Could that champion be Ronan? And an overhaul could alter his stun lock? Could that overhaul be Star Lord, and his combo meter damage is reduced to balance new abilities? And could it have been Guillotine, who just needed a moderate to add her synergies to her base and add some utility to make her viable and better, instead of balancing new abilities and removing old ones.

TL:DR

Overhauls pose some risk to champions who already have useful abilities, as it is a possibility (but obviously not certain) that their current abilities could be balanced. Kabam have too many overhauls planned compared to the moderate and tune ups, which means there are some, and will be some champions in future, that are exposed to this risk of an overhaul changing their abilities. Overhauls should be reserved for champions with bare kits, so as to not remove useful aspects.

Comments

Ace2319

This was a good point and I definitely agree. Why would you overhaul someone that has a few uses over someone that has none? It’s like they’re trying to make everyone more exciting and new and forgetting about their base kit and uses

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GrandOldKai

My problem is that some of these buffs don't feel like they were actually tested at all before going live.

If the community could even see that some "buffs" were meaningless even reading the spotlight, why did they not have the incentive to change anything?

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BitterSteel

My problem is that some of these buffs don't feel like they were actually tested at all before going live.

If the community could even see that some "buffs" were meaningless even reading the spotlight, why did they not have the incentive to change anything?

I think Kabam should open up the process to the community a little bit more. Start off by releasing the list of which champions they think need overhauls, tune ups and moderates, let us highlight any potential issues with updates to particular champions. So if Ronan is up for an overhaul, they can say you have to keep his buff stun lock. If Hawkeye is up for an overhaul you have to keep his power drain.

If necessary, this first part could be only for the CCP, but I’d like to see the whole community put their input in.

Next, open up the design process of the actual buff to the CCP. When Kabam have their first draft of abilities that they want to design and test, release them in written form to the CCP and ask them if they think anything has been changed that shouldn’t have been.

Now this is a last little cherry on top, but not necessary at all, but have a beta for champions even if it is just for the CCP. And even if it is every other month, it would go so far to help make sure buffs do what is intended.

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Mauled

I think you raise a good point but in the case of Guillotine, I think that they were setting themselves up for failure in the first place. If you looked at the poll, a huge amount of people voted for Guilly because they like her already, while people like myself voted Antman because he’s utterly rubbish and I already quite liked Guillotine as she is. She needed a lick of paint by comparison to the complete remodelling Antman needed.
They kept the right theme with Guillotine, they just have their numbers at the wrong place and she’s missing a piece of proper Mystic utility which is what I expected to be added.

Unfortunately the state that we are in now in terms of champion acquisition and rank up resources, for me to consider a tuneup/value/overhaul to be a success I need that champion to fill a piece of missing utility, have pretty outrageous damage, or a combination of them both. I don’t want to make a sacrifice to the effectiveness of my team by including them, and fairly recently that’s been the issue of the updates, they’ve thrown them into the 25-50% bracket of champions. Until all of the champions sit at the 5-25% bracket and then there’s the few anomalies like Ghost, to bring balance back to the Contest, then whatever Kabam do to champions is a massive risk of disappointment.

BitterSteel

Now this is a last little cherry on top, but not necessary at all, but have a beta for champions even if it is just for the CCP. And even if it is every other month, it would go so far to help make sure buffs do what is intended.
wasnt this already the case for guillotine ? ı can remember kam talking about exactly this. that they sad that guilly buff was lacking and even the rupture didnt work probably with interaction for days when it first drop to the CCP. this implies this buff was already been made long before the release date and gone lots of testing and feedback of ccp members.

In which case the beta was too late to make any meaningful change to the champion. Which means the beta should be held earlier in order to make meaningful change.

My guess is that this was likely just a beta that let content creators make content to drop on the embargo date, rather than to actually change the champion.

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Ace2319

ı get the idea ı can agree with some thoughts and optimistic look in general of this but ı must disagree.

priority of overhauls comes from the champs which needs them. they are both bad in animation + dmg + utility rather than tune ups /moderates singular cons. so you basically hit 3 birds with 1 stone.

ı get that overhauls while keeping the "core" of a champ can be challenging (ı would define these as heal+ bleeds for guilly) but this isnt generally the case for overhauls cuz they basically lack this too. like what s the core for antman, he shrinks!(animation) and glances +some poison here and there ı dont know. or colossus -> has armor ups thats it.
and for magneto the poor guy had nothing.

Overhaul to me sounds like rebuild from the ground up while moderate is just filling in the gaps. Colossus, antman, mags, etc all deserved an overhaul because they needed to be rebuilt because they had nothing. Some people don’t need an overhaul because they have something they just need their gaps filled in.

BitterSteel

I think you raise a good point but in the case of Guillotine, I think that they were setting themselves up for failure in the first place. If you looked at the poll, a huge amount of people voted for Guilly because they like her already, while people like myself voted Antman because he’s utterly rubbish and I already quite liked Guillotine as she is. She needed a lick of paint by comparison to the complete remodelling Antman needed.
They kept the right theme with Guillotine, they just have their numbers at the wrong place and she’s missing a piece of proper Mystic utility which is what I expected to be added.

Unfortunately the state that we are in now in terms of champion acquisition and rank up resources, for me to consider a tuneup/value/overhaul to be a success I need that champion to fill a piece of missing utility, have pretty outrageous damage, or a combination of them both. I don’t want to make a sacrifice to the effectiveness of my team by including them, and fairly recently that’s been the issue of the updates, they’ve thrown them into the 25-50% bracket of champions. Until all of the champions sit at the 5-25% bracket and then there’s the few anomalies like Ghost, to bring balance back to the Contest, then whatever Kabam do to champions is a massive risk of disappointment.

Sure, but I think you’re talking about a disappointment in terms of where a champion ends up after the buff. I’m not saying every champion should end up useful to end game players, that’s simply not realistic or good for the game. I’m saying an overhaul shouldn’t have been given to Guilly, because with a moderate update there was little to no chance of her abilities being made worse in the way they have been.

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BitterSteel

ı get the idea ı can agree with some thoughts and optimistic look in general of this but ı must disagree.

priority of overhauls comes from the champs which needs them. they are both bad in animation + dmg + utility rather than tune ups /moderates singular cons. so you basically hit 3 birds with 1 stone.

and overhauls are champions who are more OG and loved by wast majority. dr strange should hold priority over any non dr strange. its both better for marketing, for keeping the players at hand and making the game feel more balanced.
.

I think you’re misunderstanding how buffs are selected.

Overhauls are when champions have no, or barely any abilities to build off

Moderate are when they have a few abilities with potential, but are missing a little extra

Tune ups are when they have all the abilities there, but numbers are just at the wrong level.

To me, Guilly falls in the second one. It’s not about how much damage or utility a champion has per se. Although that’s is linked to how many abilities they have.

jdrum663

I'm curious, do you guys think they're prioritizing champs we face more frequently in, I dunno, Act 5? I'm not saying I think this is true but I've wondered it a few times while going for UC on my mini account. I forget who I ran across that made me think that. Ultron comes to mind and Gambit, there may be others. Again, I'm not saying I believe that theory but it's crossed my mind and I don't mean Act 5 particularly, it's just an example. Thanks!

BitterSteel

how much time did they used on guilly overhaul then if two weeks time wasnt enough ?
ı just dont believe any amount higher than 30 days. and if 15 days of feedback wasnt enough for you to get some idea about your work that you did under 30 days than not a single kind of testing program can save you

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Real_Madrid_76_2

Laziness, from 4 to 3 and 3 to 2, and that too only one is good(for example, gamora and miles and Thor rags and guilty)

Wicket329

ı get the idea ı can agree with some thoughts and optimistic look in general of this but ı must disagree.

priority of overhauls comes from the champs which needs them. they are both bad in animation + dmg + utility rather than tune ups /moderates singular cons. so you basically hit 3 birds with 1 stone.

and overhauls are champions who are more OG and loved by wast majority. dr strange should hold priority over any non dr strange. its both better for marketing, for keeping the players at hand and making the game feel more balanced.
.
I think you’re misunderstanding how buffs are selected.

Overhauls are when champions have no, or barely any abilities to build off

Moderate are when they have a few abilities with potential, but are missing a little extra

Tune ups are when they have all the abilities there, but numbers are just at the wrong level.

To me, Guilly falls in the second one. It’s not about how much damage or utility a champion has per se. Although that’s is linked to how many abilities they have.

Another way of putting it would be in treating fights like puzzles to be solved.

If a champion can solve almost no fights (Antman, Ironman, Superior Ironman, etc.), then they are in need of an overhaul.

If a champion has the utility to solve a couple fights (Guillotine, both pre- and post-buff, Agent Venom, Kamala Kahn, Jane Foster, etc.), then they are in need of a moderate buff.

Finally, if the champion has the toolkit to solve the problem but it takes incredibly stressful management of the fight or 87 years to put up any meaningful damage (Dormammu, Psycho-Man, Heimdall, Taskmaster, etc.), then they need a value update/tune-up.

I like that Kabam breaks champion updates into these three categories. I think it’s a very useful way of conceptualizing the issue. But I don’t know that they are correctly utilizing those categories.

EDIT: it is worth noting that even if Antman had won the vote, Guillotine was still slated to receive an overhaul. So it was not a function of our votes that this happened, it only sped up the time table.

BitterSteel

Moderate are when they have a few abilities with potential, but are missing a little extra

To me, Guilly falls in the second one. It’s not about how much damage or utility a champion has per se. Although that’s is linked to how many abilities they have.
if healing and an heal reversal can pas as a

"Moderate are when they have a few abilities with potential, but are missing a little extra"

than yes we indeed disagree on the need of an overhaul. Im not trying to attack or offend you but guillotine if far from a moderate update.

you cant already bump up a %200 (was it ?) heal reversal. and heal was already nice, just linked to an awakened ability high sig. guillotine was bare bones with no actual use other than her heal reversal. any kind of potential ups for her dmg and heal would just felt cheap (altough this one feels like that too). she lacked hard on multiple fronts.

ı get that we arent on the same page about this but guillotine and all others who kinda feels same as her. (old champs with very simplistic kits who just happens to hold on with their last breath) should get an overhaul even if they do "passable" dmg".

I don’t mind disagreeing on something, no attack or offence taken

You say Guilly needed an overhaul because of her abilities, but have you looked at what gambit and ultron had before their moderate updates?

Gambit had prowess, a slight % bleed resistance and concussion and stun on specials. He is objectively worse than Guilly pre buff. Doesn’t mean he needed an overhaul.

Ultron had regen, and a slight power gain from energy damage. He had less than Guilly.

These champions didn’t need overhauls, and neither does Guilly.

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AMS94

I think by this time Kabam have had enough experience that even if they overhaul a champ that just needs a moderate or value only, they should be able to do a good job with it if they want to
If a buff is so bad that almost the entire community criticizes it from the spotlight only, it means they didn't do the job correctly but that doesn't mean they couldn't have done it
They didn't even need the testing in this case....her kit itself screams failure
I think Kabam just needs to let go of this "balance" syndrome bcoz it is probably the sole reason fr underwhelming releases & buffs
Most champs have an interesting kit....they either just lack damage or utility or sometimes both
Kabam seem to be afraid of making great champions & as a result of it they end up making below average garbage
They're a big company & by this time they should've been able to judge the effectiveness of a champion even before the testing stage
If the players cn do it in most cases, they should be able to do it better than us, but somehow it seems like thay can't

Omedenn

I think that one of the problems, besides the valid points you described in your post, is that they try to add new things into the game.

There are so many new terms and abilities, different icons for buffs while fighting. Look at venompool, don’t recognise almost any of the new icons. That one turned out fine.

But it’s a big gamble to just add new things into the game without properly testing them. Guillotine got some new fancy words and phrases in her ability kit but it turns out to be complete rubbish in the game.

So it’s cool they try to be innovative, but there is a risk to imply something new as well. And especially if you, like you said, start to change champs which actually already have a few cool abilities..

GroundedWisdom

Moderate are when they have a few abilities with potential, but are missing a little extra

To me, Guilly falls in the second one. It’s not about how much damage or utility a champion has per se. Although that’s is linked to how many abilities they have.
if healing and an heal reversal can pas as a

"Moderate are when they have a few abilities with potential, but are missing a little extra"

than yes we indeed disagree on the need of an overhaul. Im not trying to attack or offend you but guillotine if far from a moderate update.

you cant already bump up a %200 (was it ?) heal reversal. and heal was already nice, just linked to an awakened ability high sig. guillotine was bare bones with no actual use other than her heal reversal. any kind of potential ups for her dmg and heal would just felt cheap (altough this one feels like that too). she lacked hard on multiple fronts.

ı get that we arent on the same page about this but guillotine and all others who kinda feels same as her. (old champs with very simplistic kits who just happens to hold on with their last breath) should get an overhaul even if they do "passable" dmg".
I don’t mind disagreeing on something, no attack or offence taken

You say Guilly needed an overhaul because of her abilities, but have you looked at what gambit and ultron had before their moderate updates?

Gambit had prowess, a slight % bleed resistance and concussion and stun on specials. He is objectively worse than Guilly pre buff. Doesn’t mean he needed an overhaul.

Ultron had regen, and a slight power gain from energy damage. He had less than Guilly.

These champions didn’t need overhauls, and neither does Guilly.

That's debatable. The two things Guillotine had going for her were the Heal Reversal, and the Life Steal. Outside of that, she was mediocre in terms of Damage. Bleeds helped, but nothing outside of that. This could be seen as a more well-rounded Champ. I think there's too much emphasis on the Regen when it was kind of the only thing going for her. Now she has more Damage, same Heal Reversal, Degen, a bit of sustainability, etc.

GroundedWisdom

Although I could argue for 4 or 5% Regen.

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The_Sentry06

Moderate are when they have a few abilities with potential, but are missing a little extra

To me, Guilly falls in the second one. It’s not about how much damage or utility a champion has per se. Although that’s is linked to how many abilities they have.
if healing and an heal reversal can pas as a

"Moderate are when they have a few abilities with potential, but are missing a little extra"

than yes we indeed disagree on the need of an overhaul. Im not trying to attack or offend you but guillotine if far from a moderate update.

you cant already bump up a %200 (was it ?) heal reversal. and heal was already nice, just linked to an awakened ability high sig. guillotine was bare bones with no actual use other than her heal reversal. any kind of potential ups for her dmg and heal would just felt cheap (altough this one feels like that too). she lacked hard on multiple fronts.

ı get that we arent on the same page about this but guillotine and all others who kinda feels same as her. (old champs with very simplistic kits who just happens to hold on with their last breath) should get an overhaul even if they do "passable" dmg".
I don’t mind disagreeing on something, no attack or offence taken

You say Guilly needed an overhaul because of her abilities, but have you looked at what gambit and ultron had before their moderate updates?

Gambit had prowess, a slight % bleed resistance and concussion and stun on specials. He is objectively worse than Guilly pre buff. Doesn’t mean he needed an overhaul.

Ultron had regen, and a slight power gain from energy damage. He had less than Guilly.

These champions didn’t need overhauls, and neither does Guilly.
That's debatable. The two things Guillotine had going for her were the Heal Reversal, and the Life Steal. Outside of that, she was mediocre in terms of Damage. Bleeds helped, but nothing outside of that. This could be seen as a more well-rounded Champ. I think there's too much emphasis on the Regen when it was kind of the only thing going for her. Now she has more Damage, same Heal Reversal, Degen, a bit of sustainability, etc.

She had all of those before. Her sustainability has actually been nerfed and her damage is only more without synergies. Nothing of value was added except her damage without synergies and some things even nerfed. That's a problem.

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GroundedWisdom

Moderate are when they have a few abilities with potential, but are missing a little extra

To me, Guilly falls in the second one. It’s not about how much damage or utility a champion has per se. Although that’s is linked to how many abilities they have.
if healing and an heal reversal can pas as a

"Moderate are when they have a few abilities with potential, but are missing a little extra"

than yes we indeed disagree on the need of an overhaul. Im not trying to attack or offend you but guillotine if far from a moderate update.

you cant already bump up a %200 (was it ?) heal reversal. and heal was already nice, just linked to an awakened ability high sig. guillotine was bare bones with no actual use other than her heal reversal. any kind of potential ups for her dmg and heal would just felt cheap (altough this one feels like that too). she lacked hard on multiple fronts.

ı get that we arent on the same page about this but guillotine and all others who kinda feels same as her. (old champs with very simplistic kits who just happens to hold on with their last breath) should get an overhaul even if they do "passable" dmg".
I don’t mind disagreeing on something, no attack or offence taken

You say Guilly needed an overhaul because of her abilities, but have you looked at what gambit and ultron had before their moderate updates?

Gambit had prowess, a slight % bleed resistance and concussion and stun on specials. He is objectively worse than Guilly pre buff. Doesn’t mean he needed an overhaul.

Ultron had regen, and a slight power gain from energy damage. He had less than Guilly.

These champions didn’t need overhauls, and neither does Guilly.
That's debatable. The two things Guillotine had going for her were the Heal Reversal, and the Life Steal. Outside of that, she was mediocre in terms of Damage. Bleeds helped, but nothing outside of that. This could be seen as a more well-rounded Champ. I think there's too much emphasis on the Regen when it was kind of the only thing going for her. Now she has more Damage, same Heal Reversal, Degen, a bit of sustainability, etc.
She had all of those before. Her sustainability has actually been nerfed and her damage is only more without synergies. Nothing of value was added except her damage without synergies and some things even nerfed. That's a problem.

With Synergies is not really the goal.

BitterSteel

how much time did they used on guilly overhaul then if two weeks time wasnt enough ?
ı just dont believe any amount higher than 30 days. and if 15 days of feedback wasnt enough for you to get some idea about your work that you did under 30 days than not a single kind of testing program can save you

and ı want to mention this again. people sad if the communication and feedback was more clearer in ccp, than it would be a different situation but ım sure the ccp was very clear about this guilly.

You may have missed my response before so I’ll copy it here

I think it’s less about the time and more about what the beta was for. I don’t think the beta was designed to provide feedback for changes on Guilly. I mean they’ve had her for 2 weeks as you say, her spotlight was only released 12 days ago and nothing changed from then.

So either they decided not to change anything based on feedback from the beta, in which case that needs to change and feedback should be listened to and acted on, or the beta was never designed to be that sort of beta in order to make changes.

CosmicGuardian

The main problem I’ve been having with some of these buffs is that they just don’t seem to address the problems that players have already identified in the champs’ current kit. For example, while Guillotine did need more damage on her base kit, she also needed some more utility. Unfortunately, all she got was damage without any new meaningful forms of utility. To me it just seems like some of the buffs we’ve seen have taken an approach along the lines of “How do give this champ more damage?” without addressing any of the other problems the champion has.

And even when we do get new pieces of utility, it isn’t always a practical piece of utility. Look at Gamora’s miss counter, or Guillotine’s pain link mechanic. On paper these mechanics had potential to improve their respective champ. However, Gamora requires you to get and keep up 10 buffs before she can counter miss effects, while Guillotine’s pain link doesn’t offer any way to mitigate any damage you might take or even even increase her regen rate to help keep her alive, instead just inflicting the same amount of non-physical damage on the opponent.

I personally feel like the buff program needs to have more transparency and interaction with the player base. They could implement randomized betas for champion testing and feedback in order to help develop relevant buffs. I also think something else that could work would be to announce a tentative lineup of upcoming buffs and ask players for suggestions of what they would like to see. That doesn’t mean they need to actually do what we say, but at least they can use any suggestions to generate ideas for what they want to do.