'Self-Die' Masteries

Do you use them? Who are the best champs for them? Why do you use them? What are the pros and cons for using them?

- A discussion for the forum
- P.S. Don't argue too much

Comments

BitterSteel

I don’t use them, for a few reasons.

Firstly, it limits my champ use. Can’t use prof X, spider Gwen, sorcerer supreme, killmonger, void or basically any champ that needs to use sp1/sp2 without regen or damage mitigation as well as you’d want to.

Secondly, it limits my options in a fight. If I need to use a special but I’m on 10% health, so I want to half my health? What if I’m in the corner and some space could really help? What if my champion needs a rotation of sp1, sp2 but they only have 10% health, I don’t want to die because I’m trying to use my champ properly.

Thirdly, and most importantly, there has never once in my entire career playing MCOC been a fight where I have thought damn I can’t do this without suicides. Yet every other month there’s a fight or a path that people say “i can’t do this because I’ve got suicides on”. Whether that’s a node like heal block which drains your life, a void that drains your life, or encroaching stun which makes you use specials.

The lack of suicides never stops you from doing fights, suicides however, sometimes do.

Ikaris, Blade and Dormammu for eternity of pain have all been pretty harsh on suicide use. Either you can’t get to sp3 or you need to use lower specials to avoid damage. That’s not a conscious choice to be anti suicides, it’s just that suicides aren’t really optimal for end game content because you need the utility of being able to use all specials at any point. Utility > damage, and suicides limits your utility.

On the other hand, it could make arena more bearable…

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Vendemiaire

I'd love to turn them off but Arena grind takes twice as long when I have them off. I use Kitty, Quake, Ghost, and Herc a lot as they benefit from it. I can use Torch, Doom, Negative, etc. for a few fights. but not Professor X (my fave champ).

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Panchulon21

I’ve never used them, nothing against those who do but they hamper the way i play. I use a lot of champs who are not suicide friendly and also use my specials willy nilly. I’m not an arena grinder so don’t care too much there.

DNA3000

Do you use them? Who are the best champs for them? Why do you use them? What are the pros and cons for using them?

As a fairly big arena grinder, I've come to have them on pretty much all the time. GC:1, RC:1, LC/DE:3.

I didn't always have full suicides. I used to run just Glass Cannon (3). But the overall advantage in the arena was simply too high - GC3 vs Full suicides was a ~ 30% speed increase in the arena overall. That literally translates into money (units) for an arena grinder, on top of more rank rewards in general.

The advantage is simply that you output way more damage, which means you kill things way faster. But that's in general, and that's mostly true in almost any fight you'd encounter while grinding in the arena. The disadvantage is that there are a few very bad match ups (like, say, Void) and they make you far less sustainable. In the arena, the fights are one and done: you win or you lose, and either way that's the end of that champ. In content, you have to fight over and over again, sometimes a few fights per champ, sometimes many fights per champ. Suicide masteries will often pull your health down much faster in those sequences of fights, which can hurt you in the long run.

Also, different champions react differently to suicides (due to immunities or how their attack rotations involve the use of special attacks which Recoil penalizes). If you can use suicide-friendly champs this can be mitigated, but if you need to use non-friendly champs then suicides will hurt you there.

Overall, they are a net positive for me, but it is five steps forward three steps back. If I stopped grinding arena then I would almost certainly go back to just running GC. I think Glass Cannon is fine even for those that hate suicides. It is Liquid Courage/Double Edge that are problematic, and especially Recoil. I think even almost everyone who likes running suicides would turn off Recoil if they could. Recoil is probably the most end game unfriendly mastery that exists (because in long fights you are almost certainly using a lot of special attacks, and there are many node combinations in later game content that basically require you to do so).

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laserjohn26

Love suicides. Maybe one or two paths in each chapter of act 7 sucked with them on. A pain to have to switch when placing aw defense. Seemed to hurt in battlegrounds. But makes arena 100% better. I couldn't play without them.

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Speedbump

LMAO "self die" masteries....wtf

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BuggyDClown

No I don't use them. They change the play style to certain degree and limit some uses of champs In long run

Final_Order

LMAO "self die" masteries....wtf
Maybe a direct translation from an Asian language, in Chinese, 自self杀kill， although self die, 自死， also sounds a bit nonsensical.

The Latin origins , sui, me, cide, kill, breaks down the same way.

lol, just wanted to make someone laugh.
Yeah, I speak English.
Nice language breakdown though, you really did some research!

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Moosetiptronic

I use them for the healing from willpower not the damage.

I use corvus, herc, horseman cable with white mags, Omega, Diablo, angela or iabom pretty heavily as lane clearers.

A free 8%+ healing, every fight is substantial.

I'll bring along champs like double apoc, g2099, guardian, moleman, CGR, Medusa, shang chi, hood, nimrod, mr F, torch and a few others to do problem fights or as support.

But @BitterSteel is right; there are paths or fights which I look at and question whether to turn them off as it will be painful to get through them otherwise; power control in particular is a big one, even with magik. Dorm this week is a great example he raises.

However I'm also a bit of a scrub player and dread to think how I'd get through content without the free healing.

And that's the sole reason they stay on.

Free healing.

Denslo500

@Final_Order
The best way to determine if they are right for you, is the post fight break down of damage.

If your favorite champs do most of their damage from Specials (and you used SP1/2), then the 10% Recoil boost is the only part that helps that damage. You also get the guaranteed damage to you.

If most of your damage comes from regular attacks, then the 60% boost will be huge. You can focus on SP3 for specials, so no Recoil damage.

AverageDesi

Because of arena i have it on all the time. The only champ I'm actually kissing out on is prof x so it's not a biggie. Used suicides for entire 7.4 except the few last runs on Kang. Definitely felt it better. The dmaage boost is just massively good. Almost feels crippled without it

Noise72

I turn them on/off depending on the content I am doing. I believe everyone should have suicides at least unlocked. You don't need to keep them on all the time but having the option to turn them on for a big arena grind or a certain EOP fight is a useful tool to have at your disposal. Especially AQ... Corvus + Suicides = Magic

For most story content and AW I will turn them off.

mortenhy

I use them for the healing from willpower not the damage.

I use corvus, herc, horseman cable with white mags, Omega, Diablo, angela or iabom pretty heavily as lane clearers.

A free 8%+ healing, every fight is substantial.

I'll bring along champs like double apoc, g2099, guardian, moleman, CGR, Medusa, shang chi, hood, nimrod, mr F, torch and a few others to do problem fights or as support.

But @BitterSteel is right; there are paths or fights which I look at and question whether to turn them off as it will be painful to get through them otherwise; power control in particular is a big one, even with magik. Dorm this week is a great example he raises.

However I'm also a bit of a scrub player and dread to think how I'd get through content without the free healing.

And that's the sole reason they stay on.

Free healing.

How can you get 8% healing?
I have 3 points in willpower (I don't run suicide usually, but sometimes I put them on), and with maxed out Recovery you get 15% extra healing..is it due to you are using immune champ's?

Magrailothos

I use them for the healing from willpower not the damage.

I use corvus, herc, horseman cable with white mags, Omega, Diablo, angela or iabom pretty heavily as lane clearers.

A free 8%+ healing, every fight is substantial.

I'll bring along champs like double apoc, g2099, guardian, moleman, CGR, Medusa, shang chi, hood, nimrod, mr F, torch and a few others to do problem fights or as support.

But @BitterSteel is right; there are paths or fights which I look at and question whether to turn them off as it will be painful to get through them otherwise; power control in particular is a big one, even with magik. Dorm this week is a great example he raises.

However I'm also a bit of a scrub player and dread to think how I'd get through content without the free healing.

And that's the sole reason they stay on.

Free healing.
How can you get 8% healing?
I have 3 points in willpower (I don't run suicide usually, but sometimes I put them on), and with maxed out Recovery you get 15% extra healing..is it due to you are using immune champ's?

Ideally you want champions with bleed/poison resistance, not Immunity. If they're immune to bleed, there's nothing to drive Willpower.

Omega Red is the classic example - 90% bleed resistance means he takes almost zero damage, but gains the Willpower healing for 16 seconds, which usually nets you 0.5% health per second, so 8% of your overall health. Also, he emits the death field whilst bleeding, so he's an amazing champion with Double Edge.

The same principle of 'free healing through regeneration' applies to:
(Bleed) Magneto, Sauron, Beast, Guardian, Gambit, Corvus, Old Man Logan, Hercules, Omega Sentinel and Weapon X
(Poison) Diablo, Immortal Abomination, Karnak, Hercules (again) and Omega Sentinel (again),
(Special) Invisible Woman isn't resistant to anything, but her forcefield can take the damage whilst she heals up.

I might have missed a couple, but that's most of them.

Elsa and Cable aren't bleed immune, but are worth a special mention as they punish the opponent when they're bleeding.

Other champions can shrug off the debuffs, like Ghost, Mole Man etc. But like immune champs, once the debuff is gone, there's no regeneration. So the best shrug-off champs can do is to mitigate the damage, rather than actually healing.

allinashes

I have had suicides on nonstop for last few years. Mainly because of the impact for arena. I grind arena for holiday deals and it makes it much more bearable. There's only been a few times where I felt sorta disadvantaged in content and I've never turned them off.

Until EOP that is; the fights were much harder with suicides because of recoil. For the first time in maybe three years, I turned off suicides and it's fun to be able to throw special after special.

I haven't done much arena for a couple months so I'm not too bad off there, and in regular content I don't miss them. However, I'll need more units at some point and will likely turn then back on then.

naikavon

I've been holding back r4'ing doom becuase of suicides. I finally did it this past level up...so I think I'm done with em for now. Maybe.

See my problem is I am very much used to them I've used them pretty much non stop for... well years.

I don't do arena much anymore and that was the main motivator for having them on. On the flip side, I don't have any content left either so it's not like suicides were really dragging me down.

But the fight lengths without them....omg I just can't. It's like slow. I know ya'll think I'm kidding but I'm serious. It may not be much shorter but it certainly adds up.

I don't have time to waste. In and out. Efficiency matters to me.

Ultimately, if I want to use Doom I'll have to turn them off... or not. It's such a drag without them.