I've used Moleman for a while now. Before the buff. I'm aware of how he operates. People are just catching on now because they barely even touched him until the buff.
How do you know Kabam didn’t want to change how he worked after his buff?
Right, we can’t. Because Kabam never said whether it was a bug or not.
Clearly they did, if they're fixing it.
How did you know that before last week when it was announced?
I've noticed it wasn't working for some time. It's already been posted. There was no need for me to repost the issue.
It was never posted by Kabam before it was officially announced. Try again.
This is just talking in circles. The whole argument is based on them not saying it's a bug which might have to do with a lack of communication, but it doesn't make a difference either way. It was a bug. We know that now. It's being fixed. I said I've noticed for some time because I know how he's supposed to work and I'm not going to split hairs and pretend I didn't know.
This is just talking in circles. The whole argument is based on them not saying it's a bug which might have to do with a lack of communication, but it doesn't make a difference either way. It was a bug. We know that now. It's being fixed. I said I've noticed for some time because I know how he's supposed to work and I'm not going to split hairs and pretend I didn't know.
This situation. This entire situation, and this 400 comment thread, everything came from a single fact. People didn't know for sure whether it was a bug . No body did . Neither did you. You assumed it was a bug based on the description.
You don't "know" how he's supposed to work. If you did , then you must also have "known' that archangel was bugged for the past 5 years because he wasn't inflicting poison on non contact blocked hits when his kit states otherwise. If not, you might have made a thread on how he is bugged but you didn't did you? Or any of the description error champs that exist.
This is just talking in circles. The whole argument is based on them not saying it's a bug which might have to do with a lack of communication, but it doesn't make a difference either way. It was a bug. We know that now. It's being fixed. I said I've noticed for some time because I know how he's supposed to work and I'm not going to split hairs and pretend I didn't know.
Backed into a corner so you’re deflecting I see.
It does make a difference either way actually. If they had said it was a bug, then there wouldn’t be an issue in communication.
You didn’t know how he was supposed to work after his buff, that hypothetically could have changed how he works because.. y’know… it was a buff. Or it could have been a description error going back further.
Either way, despite you pretending otherwise, you didn’t know for sure that Moleman was working correctly. You had your suspicions, as did everyone else. But nobody should take it seriously that anyone knew for sure, because Kabam never confirmed or denied.
It makes a difference how? They didn't comment on the bug, sure. However, here we are. It was a bug, it's being fixed. How does the lack of confirmation change the fact that it was a bug?
This is just talking in circles. The whole argument is based on them not saying it's a bug which might have to do with a lack of communication, but it doesn't make a difference either way. It was a bug. We know that now. It's being fixed. I said I've noticed for some time because I know how he's supposed to work and I'm not going to split hairs and pretend I didn't know.
This situation. This entire situation, and this 400 comment thread, everything came from a single fact. People didn't know for sure whether it was a bug . No body did . Neither did you. You assumed it was a bug based on the description.
You don't "know" how he's supposed to work. If you did , then you must also have "known' that archangel was bugged for the past 5 years because he wasn't inflicting poison on non contact blocked hits when his kit states otherwise. If not, you might have made a thread on how he is bugged but you didn't did you? Or any of the description error champs that exist.
Archangel was bugged. No Champ was meant to do what he did. Did I know undeniably because it was confirmed? No. That's just arguing semantics and the use of language. When I used Moleman, I saw that he wasn't performing as he should, just like the other people that noticed it. What I didn't do was assume it was meant to be that way. I just played with him. Each time I thought it was out of place, but I played the same as anyone else. Honestly, people are using the argument it wasn't confirmed as a bug as leverage to keep him that way, and I find that to be an empty argument.
This is just talking in circles. The whole argument is based on them not saying it's a bug which might have to do with a lack of communication, but it doesn't make a difference either way. It was a bug. We know that now. It's being fixed. I said I've noticed for some time because I know how he's supposed to work and I'm not going to split hairs and pretend I didn't know.
Backed into a corner so you’re deflecting I see.
It does make a difference either way actually. If they had said it was a bug, then there wouldn’t be an issue in communication.
You didn’t know how he was supposed to work after his buff, that hypothetically could have changed how he works because.. y’know… it was a buff. Or it could have been a description error going back further.
Either way, despite you pretending otherwise, you didn’t know for sure that Moleman was working correctly. You had your suspicions, as did everyone else. But nobody should take it seriously that anyone knew for sure, because Kabam never confirmed or denied.
It makes a difference how? They didn't comment on the bug, sure. However, here we are. It was a bug, it's being fixed. How does the lack of confirmation change the fact that it was a bug?
Because you’re talking about it with the benefit of hindsight. Last week, we had no official confirmation that it was bugged.
This is quite a simple concept, but I can explain it again to you if you’d like me to.
This is just talking in circles. The whole argument is based on them not saying it's a bug which might have to do with a lack of communication, but it doesn't make a difference either way. It was a bug. We know that now. It's being fixed. I said I've noticed for some time because I know how he's supposed to work and I'm not going to split hairs and pretend I didn't know.
Backed into a corner so you’re deflecting I see.
It does make a difference either way actually. If they had said it was a bug, then there wouldn’t be an issue in communication.
You didn’t know how he was supposed to work after his buff, that hypothetically could have changed how he works because.. y’know… it was a buff. Or it could have been a description error going back further.
Either way, despite you pretending otherwise, you didn’t know for sure that Moleman was working correctly. You had your suspicions, as did everyone else. But nobody should take it seriously that anyone knew for sure, because Kabam never confirmed or denied.
It makes a difference how? They didn't comment on the bug, sure. However, here we are. It was a bug, it's being fixed. How does the lack of confirmation change the fact that it was a bug?
Because you’re talking about it with the benefit of hindsight. Last week, we had no official confirmation that it was bugged.
This is quite a simple concept, but I can explain it again to you if you’d like me to.
You're arguing that I didn't know for sure and that's redundant. If I add, "In my opinion, I knew he was bugged.", you still know I'm saying the same thing.
This is just talking in circles. The whole argument is based on them not saying it's a bug which might have to do with a lack of communication, but it doesn't make a difference either way. It was a bug. We know that now. It's being fixed. I said I've noticed for some time because I know how he's supposed to work and I'm not going to split hairs and pretend I didn't know.
This situation. This entire situation, and this 400 comment thread, everything came from a single fact. People didn't know for sure whether it was a bug . No body did . Neither did you. You assumed it was a bug based on the description.
You don't "know" how he's supposed to work. If you did , then you must also have "known' that archangel was bugged for the past 5 years because he wasn't inflicting poison on non contact blocked hits when his kit states otherwise. If not, you might have made a thread on how he is bugged but you didn't did you? Or any of the description error champs that exist.
Archangel was bugged. No Champ was meant to do what he did. Did I know undeniably because it was confirmed? No. That's just arguing semantics and the use of language. When I used Moleman, I saw that he wasn't performing as he should, just like the other people that noticed it. What I didn't do was assume it was meant to be that way. I just played with him. Each time I thought it was out of place, but I played the same as anyone else. Honestly, people are using the argument it wasn't confirmed as a bug as leverage to keep him that way, and I find that to be an empty argument.
I’m using this argument. Ive never once said he should stay as he is.
But please, misrepresent my and other people’s arguments more.
I think you also misunderstood @AverageDesi ’s point about archangel. He wasn’t talking about the stun immune bug. He was talking about this months update to archangel’s description. At the moment it doesn’t specify that only contact hits inflict poison. But that was the way he was working.
Ok how about this.
Archangel has something wrong in his description since he was added.
Moleman has something wrong in his description since he was added.
Kabam have never commented on either.
In game, Archangel didn’t perform how his description stated.
In game Moleman didn’t perform how his description stated.
Archangel’s description was wrong, Moleman’s was right. That’s what Kabam decided and I respect that, but that’s not my point.
Before the patch nodes came out, how could you possibly have known whether either champion was performing as intended or not? Surely you can’t have it both ways, either you accept that Moleman may not have been bugged, or you accept that archangel was bugged and should be assumed that his description should be changed to match in game.
So which is it?
To clarify, I’m fine with them doing one of each for each situation. The game should function the way kabam intends even down to champions abilities. But how are we supposed to know which is which? You claim description issues are easy to fix, so why wasn’t Archangels? And how do you know which is which, description issue or bug.
This is just talking in circles. The whole argument is based on them not saying it's a bug which might have to do with a lack of communication, but it doesn't make a difference either way. It was a bug. We know that now. It's being fixed. I said I've noticed for some time because I know how he's supposed to work and I'm not going to split hairs and pretend I didn't know.
Backed into a corner so you’re deflecting I see.
It does make a difference either way actually. If they had said it was a bug, then there wouldn’t be an issue in communication.
You didn’t know how he was supposed to work after his buff, that hypothetically could have changed how he works because.. y’know… it was a buff. Or it could have been a description error going back further.
Either way, despite you pretending otherwise, you didn’t know for sure that Moleman was working correctly. You had your suspicions, as did everyone else. But nobody should take it seriously that anyone knew for sure, because Kabam never confirmed or denied.
It makes a difference how? They didn't comment on the bug, sure. However, here we are. It was a bug, it's being fixed. How does the lack of confirmation change the fact that it was a bug?
Because you’re talking about it with the benefit of hindsight. Last week, we had no official confirmation that it was bugged.
This is quite a simple concept, but I can explain it again to you if you’d like me to.
@GroundedWisdom is right tho, those of us who have been active within the community have known it's a bug for a while, but that doesn't change the fact that it's at this point too late to change without massive repercussions. You can't just leave a bug in for this long and fix it all of a sudden and expect people to not only be happy but also ok with this change. Moleman isn't broken OP with this "bug" and it's just been far too long for them to leave it in to not at least provide RDTs specific to Moleman. But obviously, I think I speak for all of us when I say we'd all just like for Moleman to stay exactly the way he is in-game right now and update his description to match how he has functioned in-game for all this time.
This is just talking in circles. The whole argument is based on them not saying it's a bug which might have to do with a lack of communication, but it doesn't make a difference either way. It was a bug. We know that now. It's being fixed. I said I've noticed for some time because I know how he's supposed to work and I'm not going to split hairs and pretend I didn't know.
Backed into a corner so you’re deflecting I see.
It does make a difference either way actually. If they had said it was a bug, then there wouldn’t be an issue in communication.
You didn’t know how he was supposed to work after his buff, that hypothetically could have changed how he works because.. y’know… it was a buff. Or it could have been a description error going back further.
Either way, despite you pretending otherwise, you didn’t know for sure that Moleman was working correctly. You had your suspicions, as did everyone else. But nobody should take it seriously that anyone knew for sure, because Kabam never confirmed or denied.
It makes a difference how? They didn't comment on the bug, sure. However, here we are. It was a bug, it's being fixed. How does the lack of confirmation change the fact that it was a bug?
Because you’re talking about it with the benefit of hindsight. Last week, we had no official confirmation that it was bugged.
This is quite a simple concept, but I can explain it again to you if you’d like me to.
@GroundedWisdom is right tho, those of us who have been active within the community have known it's a bug for a while, but that doesn't change the fact that it's at this point too late to change without massive repercussions. You can't just leave a bug in for this long and fix it all of a sudden and expect people to not only be happy but also ok with this change. Moleman isn't broken OP with this "bug" and it's just been far too long for them to leave it in to not at least provide RDTs specific to Moleman. But obviously, I think I speak for all of us when I say we'd all just like for Moleman to stay exactly the way he is in-game right now and update his description to match how he has functioned in-game for all this time.
How did you know Moleman’s issue wasn’t a description error?
I agree with the rest of your post, but nobody could have known that it was 100% a bug, because Kabam never told us. Was it likely? Perhaps, that’s up the your opinion. But was it definite? No. He could have had a description error from the beginning. He could have had a description error since his buff.
Let me reiterate. 1. I've used him for some time, and I know that's how he behaved pre-buff, and I was pretty certain it was bugged. 2. Regardless of what I thought, he WAS bugged, and they're fixing it. 3. I do not agree that the lack of confirmation of it being a bug is immediate reasoning to leave him in the bugged state.
The rest is just semantics. Which is a pretty hollow subject.
This is just talking in circles. The whole argument is based on them not saying it's a bug which might have to do with a lack of communication, but it doesn't make a difference either way. It was a bug. We know that now. It's being fixed. I said I've noticed for some time because I know how he's supposed to work and I'm not going to split hairs and pretend I didn't know.
Backed into a corner so you’re deflecting I see.
It does make a difference either way actually. If they had said it was a bug, then there wouldn’t be an issue in communication.
You didn’t know how he was supposed to work after his buff, that hypothetically could have changed how he works because.. y’know… it was a buff. Or it could have been a description error going back further.
Either way, despite you pretending otherwise, you didn’t know for sure that Moleman was working correctly. You had your suspicions, as did everyone else. But nobody should take it seriously that anyone knew for sure, because Kabam never confirmed or denied.
It makes a difference how? They didn't comment on the bug, sure. However, here we are. It was a bug, it's being fixed. How does the lack of confirmation change the fact that it was a bug?
Because you’re talking about it with the benefit of hindsight. Last week, we had no official confirmation that it was bugged.
This is quite a simple concept, but I can explain it again to you if you’d like me to.
@GroundedWisdom is right tho, those of us who have been active within the community have known it's a bug for a while, but that doesn't change the fact that it's at this point too late to change without massive repercussions. You can't just leave a bug in for this long and fix it all of a sudden and expect people to not only be happy but also ok with this change. Moleman isn't broken OP with this "bug" and it's just been far too long for them to leave it in to not at least provide RDTs specific to Moleman. But obviously, I think I speak for all of us when I say we'd all just like for Moleman to stay exactly the way he is in-game right now and update his description to match how he has functioned in-game for all this time.
How did you know Moleman’s issue wasn’t a description error?
I agree with the rest of your post, but nobody could have known that it was 100% a bug, because Kabam never told us. Was it likely? Perhaps, that’s up the your opinion. But was it definite? No. He could have had a description error from the beginning. He could have had a description error since his buff.
Actually we have known that it wasn’t a description error. Even before his buff he wasn’t able to do what he can now. You can go back and watch videos of people discussing his buff from the CCP and how a certain people wished Moleman would keep his True Accuracy during frenzy. All that his buff was meant to do was raise the caps on when True accuracy would be lost, as well as raising the Frenzy limit and timers for Frenzy fall off. (There are other things that was also buffed but they’re not really relevant to the TA Frenzy conversation).
You can even see in those same videos that the notes that they were given never once mention keeping TA during Frenzy. Not once. It wasn’t in his buff spotlight either. Other than the limits of TA being raised from 5 to 10 Mass, and Frenzy going from 15 to 20 and lasting from 1.5 to 2 seconds, and his heavy giving 4 mass instead of 1, there was no mechanical changes to how he gained Monster Mass, how his true accuracy was meant to work, or how entering Frenzy made him lose that TA. So if he didn’t work that way before, his new notes didn’t say that it was going to be changed, and his spotlight never reflected that change, I can confidently and unequivocally say that people should have known that this was a bug. I did. I ranked mine knowing full well that Kabam could fix it at any time.
Do I think Kabam should have deal with this sooner? Yes. But I will also give them the small benefit of not remembering IF there were any major issues occurring at the time of, or shortly after, his buff. We know that a few months after his buff is when the input issues occurred but I don’t remember if there was something big or gamebreaking just before that either.
I have been playing for 1.5 years and got my way to paragon a few weeks ago. I am one of those players that took my 6* moleman to r4 a couple weeks ago. I had no idea moleman even had a bug. There are over 200 champs in the game and no chance can newer players can read yet understand everything in a game so complex. It is KABAM’s responsibility to flag if a bug is active on a player and should do so in game. I dont care… put a bug icon next the champ or something in their ability description. But its completely unfair for players especially ones affected with a 6* r4 resource which is so rare and expensive to suffer. A rank down ticket would be the proper solution or leave the champ as is… but making players suffer for not even knowing a bug existed is completely detrimental to players.
Let me reiterate. 1. I've used him for some time, and I know that's how he behaved pre-buff, and I was pretty certain it was bugged. 2. Regardless of what I thought, he WAS bugged, and they're fixing it. 3. I do not agree that the lack of confirmation of it being a bug is immediate reasoning to leave him in the bugged state.
The rest is just semantics. Which is a pretty hollow subject.
Great, then we agree now. You didn’t know for certain that he wasn’t bugged before, glad you admitted that you were pretty certain but didn’t know. We all had our opinions on how likely it was. But until Kabam confirmed it a few days ago we didn’t know.
I agree that it’s not immediate reasoning to leave him in the bugged state. If Kabam want to leave him like that, I think that’s great. I don’t think many people demand he should 100% be left like that, and Kabam need to do that. But we can all agree that the game wasn’t broken by him being the way he is. He wasn’t overpowered. It would be a nice gesture for Kabam to let people continue enjoying the game and the characters they’ve grown to love.
This is just talking in circles. The whole argument is based on them not saying it's a bug which might have to do with a lack of communication, but it doesn't make a difference either way. It was a bug. We know that now. It's being fixed. I said I've noticed for some time because I know how he's supposed to work and I'm not going to split hairs and pretend I didn't know.
Backed into a corner so you’re deflecting I see.
It does make a difference either way actually. If they had said it was a bug, then there wouldn’t be an issue in communication.
You didn’t know how he was supposed to work after his buff, that hypothetically could have changed how he works because.. y’know… it was a buff. Or it could have been a description error going back further.
Either way, despite you pretending otherwise, you didn’t know for sure that Moleman was working correctly. You had your suspicions, as did everyone else. But nobody should take it seriously that anyone knew for sure, because Kabam never confirmed or denied.
It makes a difference how? They didn't comment on the bug, sure. However, here we are. It was a bug, it's being fixed. How does the lack of confirmation change the fact that it was a bug?
Because you’re talking about it with the benefit of hindsight. Last week, we had no official confirmation that it was bugged.
This is quite a simple concept, but I can explain it again to you if you’d like me to.
@GroundedWisdom is right tho, those of us who have been active within the community have known it's a bug for a while, but that doesn't change the fact that it's at this point too late to change without massive repercussions. You can't just leave a bug in for this long and fix it all of a sudden and expect people to not only be happy but also ok with this change. Moleman isn't broken OP with this "bug" and it's just been far too long for them to leave it in to not at least provide RDTs specific to Moleman. But obviously, I think I speak for all of us when I say we'd all just like for Moleman to stay exactly the way he is in-game right now and update his description to match how he has functioned in-game for all this time.
How did you know Moleman’s issue wasn’t a description error?
I agree with the rest of your post, but nobody could have known that it was 100% a bug, because Kabam never told us. Was it likely? Perhaps, that’s up the your opinion. But was it definite? No. He could have had a description error from the beginning. He could have had a description error since his buff.
Actually we have known that it wasn’t a description error. Even before his buff he wasn’t able to do what he can now. You can go back and watch videos of people discussing his buff from the CCP and how a certain people wished Moleman would keep his True Accuracy during frenzy. All that his buff was meant to do was raise the caps on when True accuracy would be lost, as well as raising the Frenzy limit and timers for Frenzy fall off. (There are other things that was also buffed but they’re not really relevant to the TA Frenzy conversation).
You can even see in those same videos that the notes that they were given never once mention keeping TA during Frenzy. Not once. It wasn’t in his buff spotlight either. Other than the limits of TA being raised from 5 to 10 Mass, and Frenzy going from 15 to 20 and lasting from 1.5 to 2 seconds, and his heavy giving 4 mass instead of 1, there was no mechanical changes to how he gained Monster Mass, how his true accuracy was meant to work, or how entering Frenzy made him lose that TA. So if he didn’t work that way before, his new notes didn’t say that it was going to be changed, and his spotlight never reflected that change, I can confidently and unequivocally say that people should have known that this was a bug. I did. I ranked mine knowing full well that Kabam could fix it at any time.
Do I think Kabam should have deal with this sooner? Yes. But I will also give them the small benefit of not remembering IF there were any major issues occurring at the time of, or shortly after, his buff. We know that a few months after his buff is when the input issues occurred but I don’t remember if there was something big or gamebreaking just before that either.
It’s not the first time Kabam have been unclear. My point is that despite it being likely it was a bug, we had no confirmation if it was or not because Kabam never told us.
All the stuff you’ve mentioned means it was likely it was a bug. Yes, but there was no confirmation.
I didn’t think it was likely that it was just a description change. In fact, I thought it was probably a bug, but until kabam has confirmed whether or not, it could have been either way.
I am doubly pissed off about this. First off I took him up as my second rank 3 the day before this happened. Secondly I am only level 55 so I had to go out and buy sigil in order to rank him up. And of course after I do they they announce that they are increasing catalyst caps. So I spent money to rank up a champ that they nerf the next day and then make that money a waste to begin with. So yeah I'm salty at this one.
This is just talking in circles. The whole argument is based on them not saying it's a bug which might have to do with a lack of communication, but it doesn't make a difference either way. It was a bug. We know that now. It's being fixed. I said I've noticed for some time because I know how he's supposed to work and I'm not going to split hairs and pretend I didn't know.
Backed into a corner so you’re deflecting I see.
It does make a difference either way actually. If they had said it was a bug, then there wouldn’t be an issue in communication.
You didn’t know how he was supposed to work after his buff, that hypothetically could have changed how he works because.. y’know… it was a buff. Or it could have been a description error going back further.
Either way, despite you pretending otherwise, you didn’t know for sure that Moleman was working correctly. You had your suspicions, as did everyone else. But nobody should take it seriously that anyone knew for sure, because Kabam never confirmed or denied.
It makes a difference how? They didn't comment on the bug, sure. However, here we are. It was a bug, it's being fixed. How does the lack of confirmation change the fact that it was a bug?
Because you’re talking about it with the benefit of hindsight. Last week, we had no official confirmation that it was bugged.
This is quite a simple concept, but I can explain it again to you if you’d like me to.
@GroundedWisdom is right tho, those of us who have been active within the community have known it's a bug for a while, but that doesn't change the fact that it's at this point too late to change without massive repercussions. You can't just leave a bug in for this long and fix it all of a sudden and expect people to not only be happy but also ok with this change. Moleman isn't broken OP with this "bug" and it's just been far too long for them to leave it in to not at least provide RDTs specific to Moleman. But obviously, I think I speak for all of us when I say we'd all just like for Moleman to stay exactly the way he is in-game right now and update his description to match how he has functioned in-game for all this time.
How did you know Moleman’s issue wasn’t a description error?
I agree with the rest of your post, but nobody could have known that it was 100% a bug, because Kabam never told us. Was it likely? Perhaps, that’s up the your opinion. But was it definite? No. He could have had a description error from the beginning. He could have had a description error since his buff.
Actually we have known that it wasn’t a description error. Even before his buff he wasn’t able to do what he can now. You can go back and watch videos of people discussing his buff from the CCP and how a certain people wished Moleman would keep his True Accuracy during frenzy. All that his buff was meant to do was raise the caps on when True accuracy would be lost, as well as raising the Frenzy limit and timers for Frenzy fall off. (There are other things that was also buffed but they’re not really relevant to the TA Frenzy conversation).
You can even see in those same videos that the notes that they were given never once mention keeping TA during Frenzy. Not once. It wasn’t in his buff spotlight either. Other than the limits of TA being raised from 5 to 10 Mass, and Frenzy going from 15 to 20 and lasting from 1.5 to 2 seconds, and his heavy giving 4 mass instead of 1, there was no mechanical changes to how he gained Monster Mass, how his true accuracy was meant to work, or how entering Frenzy made him lose that TA. So if he didn’t work that way before, his new notes didn’t say that it was going to be changed, and his spotlight never reflected that change, I can confidently and unequivocally say that people should have known that this was a bug. I did. I ranked mine knowing full well that Kabam could fix it at any time.
Do I think Kabam should have deal with this sooner? Yes. But I will also give them the small benefit of not remembering IF there were any major issues occurring at the time of, or shortly after, his buff. We know that a few months after his buff is when the input issues occurred but I don’t remember if there was something big or gamebreaking just before that either.
It’s not the first time Kabam have been unclear. My point is that despite it being likely it was a bug, we had no confirmation if it was or not because Kabam never told us.
All the stuff you’ve mentioned means it was likely it was a bug. Yes, but there was no confirmation.
I didn’t think it was likely that it was just a description change. In fact, I thought it was probably a bug, but until kabam has confirmed whether or not, it could have been either way.
Saying “probably a bug” is a very strawman argument. If it looks like a bug, smells like a bug, acts like a bug, it’s not going to be a golden goose now is it?
There is a level of user accountability to have common sense in these matters, and even if by some measure you can find yourself doubting the legitimacy of a potential issue there is an even greater accountability for the resources that you’re willing to sacrifice for an unintended mechanic.
Again, Kabam absolutely should have addressed this sooner. I will give them some small benefit of the last year of issues due to probably spending way more time and resources on the input problem than they would have liked, however the first couple of months after his buff are almost inexcusable. They may truly have been unaware, as we know the community tries to keep quiet about any pro-player bugs as possible, we’ve seen that many times and even within threads that people did create about MMs bug, there were people who were trying to hush others from taking about it in case Kabam decided to address it.
Let me reiterate. 1. I've used him for some time, and I know that's how he behaved pre-buff, and I was pretty certain it was bugged. 2. Regardless of what I thought, he WAS bugged, and they're fixing it. 3. I do not agree that the lack of confirmation of it being a bug is immediate reasoning to leave him in the bugged state.
The rest is just semantics. Which is a pretty hollow subject.
Great, then we agree now. You didn’t know for certain that he wasn’t bugged before, glad you admitted that you were pretty certain but didn’t know. We all had our opinions on how likely it was. But until Kabam confirmed it a few days ago we didn’t know.
I agree that it’s not immediate reasoning to leave him in the bugged state. If Kabam want to leave him like that, I think that’s great. I don’t think many people demand he should 100% be left like that, and Kabam need to do that. But we can all agree that the game wasn’t broken by him being the way he is. He wasn’t overpowered. It would be a nice gesture for Kabam to let people continue enjoying the game and the characters they’ve grown to love.
To be honest, I get tired of saying "in my opinion, in my opinion....". We're all here to express our own opinions. None of us can speak for more than that. It goes without saying.
This is just talking in circles. The whole argument is based on them not saying it's a bug which might have to do with a lack of communication, but it doesn't make a difference either way. It was a bug. We know that now. It's being fixed. I said I've noticed for some time because I know how he's supposed to work and I'm not going to split hairs and pretend I didn't know.
Backed into a corner so you’re deflecting I see.
It does make a difference either way actually. If they had said it was a bug, then there wouldn’t be an issue in communication.
You didn’t know how he was supposed to work after his buff, that hypothetically could have changed how he works because.. y’know… it was a buff. Or it could have been a description error going back further.
Either way, despite you pretending otherwise, you didn’t know for sure that Moleman was working correctly. You had your suspicions, as did everyone else. But nobody should take it seriously that anyone knew for sure, because Kabam never confirmed or denied.
It makes a difference how? They didn't comment on the bug, sure. However, here we are. It was a bug, it's being fixed. How does the lack of confirmation change the fact that it was a bug?
Because you’re talking about it with the benefit of hindsight. Last week, we had no official confirmation that it was bugged.
This is quite a simple concept, but I can explain it again to you if you’d like me to.
@GroundedWisdom is right tho, those of us who have been active within the community have known it's a bug for a while, but that doesn't change the fact that it's at this point too late to change without massive repercussions. You can't just leave a bug in for this long and fix it all of a sudden and expect people to not only be happy but also ok with this change. Moleman isn't broken OP with this "bug" and it's just been far too long for them to leave it in to not at least provide RDTs specific to Moleman. But obviously, I think I speak for all of us when I say we'd all just like for Moleman to stay exactly the way he is in-game right now and update his description to match how he has functioned in-game for all this time.
How did you know Moleman’s issue wasn’t a description error?
I agree with the rest of your post, but nobody could have known that it was 100% a bug, because Kabam never told us. Was it likely? Perhaps, that’s up the your opinion. But was it definite? No. He could have had a description error from the beginning. He could have had a description error since his buff.
Actually we have known that it wasn’t a description error. Even before his buff he wasn’t able to do what he can now. You can go back and watch videos of people discussing his buff from the CCP and how a certain people wished Moleman would keep his True Accuracy during frenzy. All that his buff was meant to do was raise the caps on when True accuracy would be lost, as well as raising the Frenzy limit and timers for Frenzy fall off. (There are other things that was also buffed but they’re not really relevant to the TA Frenzy conversation).
You can even see in those same videos that the notes that they were given never once mention keeping TA during Frenzy. Not once. It wasn’t in his buff spotlight either. Other than the limits of TA being raised from 5 to 10 Mass, and Frenzy going from 15 to 20 and lasting from 1.5 to 2 seconds, and his heavy giving 4 mass instead of 1, there was no mechanical changes to how he gained Monster Mass, how his true accuracy was meant to work, or how entering Frenzy made him lose that TA. So if he didn’t work that way before, his new notes didn’t say that it was going to be changed, and his spotlight never reflected that change, I can confidently and unequivocally say that people should have known that this was a bug. I did. I ranked mine knowing full well that Kabam could fix it at any time.
Do I think Kabam should have deal with this sooner? Yes. But I will also give them the small benefit of not remembering IF there were any major issues occurring at the time of, or shortly after, his buff. We know that a few months after his buff is when the input issues occurred but I don’t remember if there was something big or gamebreaking just before that either.
It’s not the first time Kabam have been unclear. My point is that despite it being likely it was a bug, we had no confirmation if it was or not because Kabam never told us.
All the stuff you’ve mentioned means it was likely it was a bug. Yes, but there was no confirmation.
I didn’t think it was likely that it was just a description change. In fact, I thought it was probably a bug, but until kabam has confirmed whether or not, it could have been either way.
Saying “probably a bug” is a very strawman argument. If it looks like a bug, smells like a bug, acts like a bug, it’s not going to be a golden goose now is it?
There is a level of user accountability to have common sense in these matters, and even if by some measure you can find yourself doubting the legitimacy of a potential issue there is an even greater accountability for the resources that you’re willing to sacrifice for an unintended mechanic.
Again, Kabam absolutely should have addressed this sooner. I will give them some small benefit of the last year of issues due to probably spending way more time and resources on the input problem than they would have liked, however the first couple of months after his buff are almost inexcusable. They may truly have been unaware, as we know the community tries to keep quiet about any pro-player bugs as possible, we’ve seen that many times and even within threads that people did create about MMs bug, there were people who were trying to hush others from taking about it in case Kabam decided to address it.
That’s not what a straw man is. My entire argument is literally “there is no confirmation”. My argument this whole time has been that it was probably a bug but we had no way of telling.
There was a chance Kabam decided that’s how he should work, and it wasn’t a bug. How high that chance is, is up to you. The immutable fact is that there was no confirmation.
In your golden goose example, I’m not saying “it looks like a bug, it smells like a bug but it’s not a bug”. I’m saying there was no confirmation. The only straw man around here is yours, pretending that that’s the argument I’m making.
The point of what I’m saying is that Kabam owe us some sort of solution above just fixing the bug. Whether that’s Rank 4 to 3 rank down gems at the lower end which is a minimum, or leaving Moleman as he is, which is an unnecessary (but awesome) maximum.
The reason why they owe us that solution is because they never told us, hence us not being able to be sure about whether it was a bug.
Kabam did know, or at least, Kabam Ziibit knew when he moved several threads discussing that topic. And if he didn’t know, then he failed in his job to alert higher ups. And if he did alert higher ups then they failed to communicate it. Essentially, somewhere in the chain somebody failed. I don’t know who that was, and it doesn’t matter, but that is the reason it is not ok for Kabam to just fix his bug out of nowhere.
I’ve made all these points before, so I feel I’m going a little round in circles. I’ll probably leave this particular conversation here
This is just talking in circles. The whole argument is based on them not saying it's a bug which might have to do with a lack of communication, but it doesn't make a difference either way. It was a bug. We know that now. It's being fixed. I said I've noticed for some time because I know how he's supposed to work and I'm not going to split hairs and pretend I didn't know.
Backed into a corner so you’re deflecting I see.
It does make a difference either way actually. If they had said it was a bug, then there wouldn’t be an issue in communication.
You didn’t know how he was supposed to work after his buff, that hypothetically could have changed how he works because.. y’know… it was a buff. Or it could have been a description error going back further.
Either way, despite you pretending otherwise, you didn’t know for sure that Moleman was working correctly. You had your suspicions, as did everyone else. But nobody should take it seriously that anyone knew for sure, because Kabam never confirmed or denied.
It makes a difference how? They didn't comment on the bug, sure. However, here we are. It was a bug, it's being fixed. How does the lack of confirmation change the fact that it was a bug?
Because you’re talking about it with the benefit of hindsight. Last week, we had no official confirmation that it was bugged.
This is quite a simple concept, but I can explain it again to you if you’d like me to.
@GroundedWisdom is right tho, those of us who have been active within the community have known it's a bug for a while, but that doesn't change the fact that it's at this point too late to change without massive repercussions. You can't just leave a bug in for this long and fix it all of a sudden and expect people to not only be happy but also ok with this change. Moleman isn't broken OP with this "bug" and it's just been far too long for them to leave it in to not at least provide RDTs specific to Moleman. But obviously, I think I speak for all of us when I say we'd all just like for Moleman to stay exactly the way he is in-game right now and update his description to match how he has functioned in-game for all this time.
How did you know Moleman’s issue wasn’t a description error?
I agree with the rest of your post, but nobody could have known that it was 100% a bug, because Kabam never told us. Was it likely? Perhaps, that’s up the your opinion. But was it definite? No. He could have had a description error from the beginning. He could have had a description error since his buff.
Actually we have known that it wasn’t a description error. Even before his buff he wasn’t able to do what he can now. You can go back and watch videos of people discussing his buff from the CCP and how a certain people wished Moleman would keep his True Accuracy during frenzy. All that his buff was meant to do was raise the caps on when True accuracy would be lost, as well as raising the Frenzy limit and timers for Frenzy fall off. (There are other things that was also buffed but they’re not really relevant to the TA Frenzy conversation).
You can even see in those same videos that the notes that they were given never once mention keeping TA during Frenzy. Not once. It wasn’t in his buff spotlight either. Other than the limits of TA being raised from 5 to 10 Mass, and Frenzy going from 15 to 20 and lasting from 1.5 to 2 seconds, and his heavy giving 4 mass instead of 1, there was no mechanical changes to how he gained Monster Mass, how his true accuracy was meant to work, or how entering Frenzy made him lose that TA. So if he didn’t work that way before, his new notes didn’t say that it was going to be changed, and his spotlight never reflected that change, I can confidently and unequivocally say that people should have known that this was a bug. I did. I ranked mine knowing full well that Kabam could fix it at any time.
Do I think Kabam should have deal with this sooner? Yes. But I will also give them the small benefit of not remembering IF there were any major issues occurring at the time of, or shortly after, his buff. We know that a few months after his buff is when the input issues occurred but I don’t remember if there was something big or gamebreaking just before that either.
It’s not the first time Kabam have been unclear. My point is that despite it being likely it was a bug, we had no confirmation if it was or not because Kabam never told us.
All the stuff you’ve mentioned means it was likely it was a bug. Yes, but there was no confirmation.
I didn’t think it was likely that it was just a description change. In fact, I thought it was probably a bug, but until kabam has confirmed whether or not, it could have been either way.
Saying “probably a bug” is a very strawman argument. If it looks like a bug, smells like a bug, acts like a bug, it’s not going to be a golden goose now is it?
There is a level of user accountability to have common sense in these matters, and even if by some measure you can find yourself doubting the legitimacy of a potential issue there is an even greater accountability for the resources that you’re willing to sacrifice for an unintended mechanic.
Again, Kabam absolutely should have addressed this sooner. I will give them some small benefit of the last year of issues due to probably spending way more time and resources on the input problem than they would have liked, however the first couple of months after his buff are almost inexcusable. They may truly have been unaware, as we know the community tries to keep quiet about any pro-player bugs as possible, we’ve seen that many times and even within threads that people did create about MMs bug, there were people who were trying to hush others from taking about it in case Kabam decided to address it.
That’s not what a straw man is. My entire argument is literally “there is no confirmation”. My argument this whole time has been that it was probably a bug but we had no way of telling.
There was a chance Kabam decided that’s how he should work, and it wasn’t a bug. How high that chance is, is up to you. The immutable fact is that there was no confirmation.
In your golden goose example, I’m not saying “it looks like a bug, it smells like a bug but it’s not a bug”. I’m saying there was no confirmation. The only straw man around here is yours, pretending that that’s the argument I’m making.
The point of what I’m saying is that Kabam owe us some sort of solution above just fixing the bug. Whether that’s Rank 4 to 3 rank down gems at the lower end which is a minimum, or leaving Moleman as he is, which is an unnecessary (but awesome) maximum.
The reason why they owe us that solution is because they never told us, hence us not being able to be sure about whether it was a bug.
Kabam did know, or at least, Kabam Ziibit knew when he moved several threads discussing that topic. And if he didn’t know, then he failed in his job to alert higher ups. And if he did alert higher ups then they failed to communicate it. Essentially, somewhere in the chain somebody failed. I don’t know who that was, and it doesn’t matter, but that is the reason it is not ok for Kabam to just fix his bug out of nowhere.
I’ve made all these points before, so I feel I’m going a little round in circles. I’ll probably leave this particular conversation here
You are very incorrect, you don’t want to believe that it definitely was a bug because it defeats your whole argument. You know irrefutably the evidence from the spotlights both pre and post buff, plus information from Kabam given to their Content Creators that there is no evidence to suggest it was not a bug. Saying “Well maybe Kabam decided that’s just how it should work” is some strong copium for your justification, and has just as many holes as any argument that says “Well I thought it was probably a bug”.
Your literal argument is “Hey this thing, looks like a bug, but until someone tells me it is a bug, I cannot say for certain”. Which is where the point about common sense comes in. We as people can look at a thing that looks a certain way and ascertain with a very good degree what that thing is supposed to do or not. If you see a bicycle with a missing front wheel, you don’t look at it and think “Oh that’s a unicycle” you think “Huh… that bike is missing a wheel”.
Should there be Rank Downs? I don’t know and that I’ve neither strong opinions for or against it.
I won’t go over the Kabam failure again, I think I’ve made it clear several times that there was some failure for some reason.
And as I said in an early reply when I misread the conversation, Kabam is absolutely within their right to fix it now and it is ok for them to do so if they deem fit. We as consumers don’t have to like that, but we have to accept that.
This is just talking in circles. The whole argument is based on them not saying it's a bug which might have to do with a lack of communication, but it doesn't make a difference either way. It was a bug. We know that now. It's being fixed. I said I've noticed for some time because I know how he's supposed to work and I'm not going to split hairs and pretend I didn't know.
Backed into a corner so you’re deflecting I see.
It does make a difference either way actually. If they had said it was a bug, then there wouldn’t be an issue in communication.
You didn’t know how he was supposed to work after his buff, that hypothetically could have changed how he works because.. y’know… it was a buff. Or it could have been a description error going back further.
Either way, despite you pretending otherwise, you didn’t know for sure that Moleman was working correctly. You had your suspicions, as did everyone else. But nobody should take it seriously that anyone knew for sure, because Kabam never confirmed or denied.
It makes a difference how? They didn't comment on the bug, sure. However, here we are. It was a bug, it's being fixed. How does the lack of confirmation change the fact that it was a bug?
Because you’re talking about it with the benefit of hindsight. Last week, we had no official confirmation that it was bugged.
This is quite a simple concept, but I can explain it again to you if you’d like me to.
@GroundedWisdom is right tho, those of us who have been active within the community have known it's a bug for a while, but that doesn't change the fact that it's at this point too late to change without massive repercussions. You can't just leave a bug in for this long and fix it all of a sudden and expect people to not only be happy but also ok with this change. Moleman isn't broken OP with this "bug" and it's just been far too long for them to leave it in to not at least provide RDTs specific to Moleman. But obviously, I think I speak for all of us when I say we'd all just like for Moleman to stay exactly the way he is in-game right now and update his description to match how he has functioned in-game for all this time.
How did you know Moleman’s issue wasn’t a description error?
I agree with the rest of your post, but nobody could have known that it was 100% a bug, because Kabam never told us. Was it likely? Perhaps, that’s up the your opinion. But was it definite? No. He could have had a description error from the beginning. He could have had a description error since his buff.
Actually we have known that it wasn’t a description error. Even before his buff he wasn’t able to do what he can now. You can go back and watch videos of people discussing his buff from the CCP and how a certain people wished Moleman would keep his True Accuracy during frenzy. All that his buff was meant to do was raise the caps on when True accuracy would be lost, as well as raising the Frenzy limit and timers for Frenzy fall off. (There are other things that was also buffed but they’re not really relevant to the TA Frenzy conversation).
You can even see in those same videos that the notes that they were given never once mention keeping TA during Frenzy. Not once. It wasn’t in his buff spotlight either. Other than the limits of TA being raised from 5 to 10 Mass, and Frenzy going from 15 to 20 and lasting from 1.5 to 2 seconds, and his heavy giving 4 mass instead of 1, there was no mechanical changes to how he gained Monster Mass, how his true accuracy was meant to work, or how entering Frenzy made him lose that TA. So if he didn’t work that way before, his new notes didn’t say that it was going to be changed, and his spotlight never reflected that change, I can confidently and unequivocally say that people should have known that this was a bug. I did. I ranked mine knowing full well that Kabam could fix it at any time.
Do I think Kabam should have deal with this sooner? Yes. But I will also give them the small benefit of not remembering IF there were any major issues occurring at the time of, or shortly after, his buff. We know that a few months after his buff is when the input issues occurred but I don’t remember if there was something big or gamebreaking just before that either.
It’s not the first time Kabam have been unclear. My point is that despite it being likely it was a bug, we had no confirmation if it was or not because Kabam never told us.
All the stuff you’ve mentioned means it was likely it was a bug. Yes, but there was no confirmation.
I didn’t think it was likely that it was just a description change. In fact, I thought it was probably a bug, but until kabam has confirmed whether or not, it could have been either way.
Saying “probably a bug” is a very strawman argument. If it looks like a bug, smells like a bug, acts like a bug, it’s not going to be a golden goose now is it?
There is a level of user accountability to have common sense in these matters, and even if by some measure you can find yourself doubting the legitimacy of a potential issue there is an even greater accountability for the resources that you’re willing to sacrifice for an unintended mechanic.
Again, Kabam absolutely should have addressed this sooner. I will give them some small benefit of the last year of issues due to probably spending way more time and resources on the input problem than they would have liked, however the first couple of months after his buff are almost inexcusable. They may truly have been unaware, as we know the community tries to keep quiet about any pro-player bugs as possible, we’ve seen that many times and even within threads that people did create about MMs bug, there were people who were trying to hush others from taking about it in case Kabam decided to address it.
That’s not what a straw man is. My entire argument is literally “there is no confirmation”. My argument this whole time has been that it was probably a bug but we had no way of telling.
There was a chance Kabam decided that’s how he should work, and it wasn’t a bug. How high that chance is, is up to you. The immutable fact is that there was no confirmation.
In your golden goose example, I’m not saying “it looks like a bug, it smells like a bug but it’s not a bug”. I’m saying there was no confirmation. The only straw man around here is yours, pretending that that’s the argument I’m making.
The point of what I’m saying is that Kabam owe us some sort of solution above just fixing the bug. Whether that’s Rank 4 to 3 rank down gems at the lower end which is a minimum, or leaving Moleman as he is, which is an unnecessary (but awesome) maximum.
The reason why they owe us that solution is because they never told us, hence us not being able to be sure about whether it was a bug.
Kabam did know, or at least, Kabam Ziibit knew when he moved several threads discussing that topic. And if he didn’t know, then he failed in his job to alert higher ups. And if he did alert higher ups then they failed to communicate it. Essentially, somewhere in the chain somebody failed. I don’t know who that was, and it doesn’t matter, but that is the reason it is not ok for Kabam to just fix his bug out of nowhere.
I’ve made all these points before, so I feel I’m going a little round in circles. I’ll probably leave this particular conversation here
You are very incorrect, you don’t want to believe that it definitely was a bug because it defeats your whole argument. You know irrefutably the evidence from the spotlights both pre and post buff, plus information from Kabam given to their Content Creators that there is no evidence to suggest it was not a bug. Saying “Well maybe Kabam decided that’s just how it should work” is some strong copium for your justification, and has just as many holes as any argument that says “Well I thought it was probably a bug”.
Your literal argument is “Hey this thing, looks like a bug, but until someone tells me it is a bug, I cannot say for certain”. Which is where the point about common sense comes in. We as people can look at a thing that looks a certain way and ascertain with a very good degree what that thing is supposed to do or not. If you see a bicycle with a missing front wheel, you don’t look at it and think “Oh that’s a unicycle” you think “Huh… that bike is missing a wheel”.
Should there be Rank Downs? I don’t know and that I’ve neither strong opinions for or against it.
I won’t go over the Kabam failure again, I think I’ve made it clear several times that there was some failure for some reason.
And as I said in an early reply when I misread the conversation, Kabam is absolutely within their right to fix it now and it is ok for them to do so if they deem fit. We as consumers don’t have to like that, but we have to accept that.
You can say whatever you like about me as strongly as you possibly can, but just saying it doesn’t make that what I believe. I don’t think that was strong enough evidence to guarantee it being a bug. I’ve said before, but I’ll repeat for you one last time. I believed it likely, but not confirmed. You can believe that if you’d like to, or not, makes no difference to me. But I know it’s the truth of what I believed.
We have a difference of opinion about how important the confirmation is. I accept your opinion but I disagree with it. Until you show me an example of Kabam saying “Moleman is bugged” I’m afraid there isn’t confirmation.
I’ve made my points, not interested in going over and over.
This is just talking in circles. The whole argument is based on them not saying it's a bug which might have to do with a lack of communication, but it doesn't make a difference either way. It was a bug. We know that now. It's being fixed. I said I've noticed for some time because I know how he's supposed to work and I'm not going to split hairs and pretend I didn't know.
Backed into a corner so you’re deflecting I see.
It does make a difference either way actually. If they had said it was a bug, then there wouldn’t be an issue in communication.
You didn’t know how he was supposed to work after his buff, that hypothetically could have changed how he works because.. y’know… it was a buff. Or it could have been a description error going back further.
Either way, despite you pretending otherwise, you didn’t know for sure that Moleman was working correctly. You had your suspicions, as did everyone else. But nobody should take it seriously that anyone knew for sure, because Kabam never confirmed or denied.
It makes a difference how? They didn't comment on the bug, sure. However, here we are. It was a bug, it's being fixed. How does the lack of confirmation change the fact that it was a bug?
Because you’re talking about it with the benefit of hindsight. Last week, we had no official confirmation that it was bugged.
This is quite a simple concept, but I can explain it again to you if you’d like me to.
@GroundedWisdom is right tho, those of us who have been active within the community have known it's a bug for a while, but that doesn't change the fact that it's at this point too late to change without massive repercussions. You can't just leave a bug in for this long and fix it all of a sudden and expect people to not only be happy but also ok with this change. Moleman isn't broken OP with this "bug" and it's just been far too long for them to leave it in to not at least provide RDTs specific to Moleman. But obviously, I think I speak for all of us when I say we'd all just like for Moleman to stay exactly the way he is in-game right now and update his description to match how he has functioned in-game for all this time.
How did you know Moleman’s issue wasn’t a description error?
I agree with the rest of your post, but nobody could have known that it was 100% a bug, because Kabam never told us. Was it likely? Perhaps, that’s up the your opinion. But was it definite? No. He could have had a description error from the beginning. He could have had a description error since his buff.
Actually we have known that it wasn’t a description error. Even before his buff he wasn’t able to do what he can now. You can go back and watch videos of people discussing his buff from the CCP and how a certain people wished Moleman would keep his True Accuracy during frenzy. All that his buff was meant to do was raise the caps on when True accuracy would be lost, as well as raising the Frenzy limit and timers for Frenzy fall off. (There are other things that was also buffed but they’re not really relevant to the TA Frenzy conversation).
You can even see in those same videos that the notes that they were given never once mention keeping TA during Frenzy. Not once. It wasn’t in his buff spotlight either. Other than the limits of TA being raised from 5 to 10 Mass, and Frenzy going from 15 to 20 and lasting from 1.5 to 2 seconds, and his heavy giving 4 mass instead of 1, there was no mechanical changes to how he gained Monster Mass, how his true accuracy was meant to work, or how entering Frenzy made him lose that TA. So if he didn’t work that way before, his new notes didn’t say that it was going to be changed, and his spotlight never reflected that change, I can confidently and unequivocally say that people should have known that this was a bug. I did. I ranked mine knowing full well that Kabam could fix it at any time.
Do I think Kabam should have deal with this sooner? Yes. But I will also give them the small benefit of not remembering IF there were any major issues occurring at the time of, or shortly after, his buff. We know that a few months after his buff is when the input issues occurred but I don’t remember if there was something big or gamebreaking just before that either.
It’s not the first time Kabam have been unclear. My point is that despite it being likely it was a bug, we had no confirmation if it was or not because Kabam never told us.
All the stuff you’ve mentioned means it was likely it was a bug. Yes, but there was no confirmation.
I didn’t think it was likely that it was just a description change. In fact, I thought it was probably a bug, but until kabam has confirmed whether or not, it could have been either way.
Saying “probably a bug” is a very strawman argument. If it looks like a bug, smells like a bug, acts like a bug, it’s not going to be a golden goose now is it?
There is a level of user accountability to have common sense in these matters, and even if by some measure you can find yourself doubting the legitimacy of a potential issue there is an even greater accountability for the resources that you’re willing to sacrifice for an unintended mechanic.
Again, Kabam absolutely should have addressed this sooner. I will give them some small benefit of the last year of issues due to probably spending way more time and resources on the input problem than they would have liked, however the first couple of months after his buff are almost inexcusable. They may truly have been unaware, as we know the community tries to keep quiet about any pro-player bugs as possible, we’ve seen that many times and even within threads that people did create about MMs bug, there were people who were trying to hush others from taking about it in case Kabam decided to address it.
That’s not what a straw man is. My entire argument is literally “there is no confirmation”. My argument this whole time has been that it was probably a bug but we had no way of telling.
There was a chance Kabam decided that’s how he should work, and it wasn’t a bug. How high that chance is, is up to you. The immutable fact is that there was no confirmation.
In your golden goose example, I’m not saying “it looks like a bug, it smells like a bug but it’s not a bug”. I’m saying there was no confirmation. The only straw man around here is yours, pretending that that’s the argument I’m making.
The point of what I’m saying is that Kabam owe us some sort of solution above just fixing the bug. Whether that’s Rank 4 to 3 rank down gems at the lower end which is a minimum, or leaving Moleman as he is, which is an unnecessary (but awesome) maximum.
The reason why they owe us that solution is because they never told us, hence us not being able to be sure about whether it was a bug.
Kabam did know, or at least, Kabam Ziibit knew when he moved several threads discussing that topic. And if he didn’t know, then he failed in his job to alert higher ups. And if he did alert higher ups then they failed to communicate it. Essentially, somewhere in the chain somebody failed. I don’t know who that was, and it doesn’t matter, but that is the reason it is not ok for Kabam to just fix his bug out of nowhere.
I’ve made all these points before, so I feel I’m going a little round in circles. I’ll probably leave this particular conversation here
You are very incorrect, you don’t want to believe that it definitely was a bug because it defeats your whole argument. You know irrefutably the evidence from the spotlights both pre and post buff, plus information from Kabam given to their Content Creators that there is no evidence to suggest it was not a bug. Saying “Well maybe Kabam decided that’s just how it should work” is some strong copium for your justification, and has just as many holes as any argument that says “Well I thought it was probably a bug”.
Your literal argument is “Hey this thing, looks like a bug, but until someone tells me it is a bug, I cannot say for certain”. Which is where the point about common sense comes in. We as people can look at a thing that looks a certain way and ascertain with a very good degree what that thing is supposed to do or not. If you see a bicycle with a missing front wheel, you don’t look at it and think “Oh that’s a unicycle” you think “Huh… that bike is missing a wheel”.
Should there be Rank Downs? I don’t know and that I’ve neither strong opinions for or against it.
I won’t go over the Kabam failure again, I think I’ve made it clear several times that there was some failure for some reason.
And as I said in an early reply when I misread the conversation, Kabam is absolutely within their right to fix it now and it is ok for them to do so if they deem fit. We as consumers don’t have to like that, but we have to accept that.
You can say whatever you like about me as strongly as you possibly can, but just saying it doesn’t make that what I believe. I don’t think that was strong enough evidence to guarantee it being a bug. I’ve said before, but I’ll repeat for you one last time. I believed it likely, but not confirmed. You can believe that if you’d like to, or not, makes no difference to me. But I know it’s the truth of what I believed.
We have a difference of opinion about how important the confirmation is. I accept your opinion but I disagree with it. Until you show me an example of Kabam saying “Moleman is bugged” I’m afraid there isn’t confirmation.
I’ve made my points, not interested in going over and over.
Some things don’t need confirmation to know that it isn’t how it’s meant to be. You can believe in your opinion but that doesn’t make your opinion correct. I have given evidence to show why it is wrong and there has been nothing from the other side to prove that it was not wrong, and if you wish to continue to believe that it’s might not have been, then that’s on you.
If you can show proof of Kabam saying that “This is intended”, then there was never any reason to believe that it was. The burden of evidence has to be provided by both parties, and if one side has and the other does not, then it is clear which side is correct.
People can say it is clearly a bug - even though it is not true if clearly a lot of people aren't sure. People can say it is fine that it is a bug that Kabam has corrected - it is entirely true that Kabam is entirely within their rights to correct it. Kabam can also choose to not communicate with players as well for over a year - kind of a **** move, but still entirely within their purview to not comment on 1 aspect of one champion's ability.
BUT.... players have the right to demand for better communication, both in terms of current situations (Eg. Moleman) and to improve any future 'bugs' that may occur.
I don't entirely agree with the clamoring for RDTs, but Kabam clearly dropped the ball in how this Moleman situation has rolled out.
Imagine if King Groot's Malice bug on the recent update received no response from Kabam - regardless of if you know it is a bug (in-game behavior doesn't match the description), it still is great that Kabam confirmed it to be. If we simply instead had gotten no response throughout June, and then just saw in the July patch notes about it being fixed, we would still be pissed at the lack of communication.
If Kabam changed the description to fit the function of a champ, in a way that negatively affected the player base, the same Kabam loyalists would be arguing how we should have known the description was actually a bug.
It's way easier to claim something not working as discripted as a bug rather than the description itself being the bug. King Groot for example has a bugged description and that one was noticeable due to how it affected his abilities and it was accidentally changed
I have a R3 moleman that I leant how to use by how he played. I only very briefly read the description a long time ago, so didn’t notice his description being different.
I always assumed that he kept his true strike while in frenzy, and this was an intended effect.
Given its duration of well over a year, this comes across as an intentional downgrading of moleman’s ability’s. It has taken me by surprise. There was no warning. I am disappointed. Kabam should offer rank down tickets as others have stated.
Better yet just change the description and leave him in as is, that way the community will be happy. After all it’s the people who play the game that should be valued and listened to.
Comments
I said I've noticed for some time because I know how he's supposed to work and I'm not going to split hairs and pretend I didn't know.
You don't "know" how he's supposed to work. If you did , then you must also have "known' that archangel was bugged for the past 5 years because he wasn't inflicting poison on non contact blocked hits when his kit states otherwise. If not, you might have made a thread on how he is bugged but you didn't did you? Or any of the description error champs that exist.
How does the lack of confirmation change the fact that it was a bug?
When I used Moleman, I saw that he wasn't performing as he should, just like the other people that noticed it. What I didn't do was assume it was meant to be that way. I just played with him. Each time I thought it was out of place, but I played the same as anyone else. Honestly, people are using the argument it wasn't confirmed as a bug as leverage to keep him that way, and I find that to be an empty argument.
This is quite a simple concept, but I can explain it again to you if you’d like me to.
But please, misrepresent my and other people’s arguments more.
I think you also misunderstood @AverageDesi ’s point about archangel. He wasn’t talking about the stun immune bug. He was talking about this months update to archangel’s description. At the moment it doesn’t specify that only contact hits inflict poison. But that was the way he was working.
Ok how about this.
Archangel has something wrong in his description since he was added.
Moleman has something wrong in his description since he was added.
Kabam have never commented on either.
In game, Archangel didn’t perform how his description stated.
In game Moleman didn’t perform how his description stated.
Archangel’s description was wrong, Moleman’s was right. That’s what Kabam decided and I respect that, but that’s not my point.
Before the patch nodes came out, how could you possibly have known whether either champion was performing as intended or not? Surely you can’t have it both ways, either you accept that Moleman may not have been bugged, or you accept that archangel was bugged and should be assumed that his description should be changed to match in game.
So which is it?
To clarify, I’m fine with them doing one of each for each situation. The game should function the way kabam intends even down to champions abilities. But how are we supposed to know which is which? You claim description issues are easy to fix, so why wasn’t Archangels? And how do you know which is which, description issue or bug.
I agree with the rest of your post, but nobody could have known that it was 100% a bug, because Kabam never told us. Was it likely? Perhaps, that’s up the your opinion. But was it definite? No. He could have had a description error from the beginning. He could have had a description error since his buff.
Let me reiterate.
1. I've used him for some time, and I know that's how he behaved pre-buff, and I was pretty certain it was bugged.
2. Regardless of what I thought, he WAS bugged, and they're fixing it.
3. I do not agree that the lack of confirmation of it being a bug is immediate reasoning to leave him in the bugged state.
The rest is just semantics. Which is a pretty hollow subject.
You can even see in those same videos that the notes that they were given never once mention keeping TA during Frenzy. Not once. It wasn’t in his buff spotlight either. Other than the limits of TA being raised from 5 to 10 Mass, and Frenzy going from 15 to 20 and lasting from 1.5 to 2 seconds, and his heavy giving 4 mass instead of 1, there was no mechanical changes to how he gained Monster Mass, how his true accuracy was meant to work, or how entering Frenzy made him lose that TA. So if he didn’t work that way before, his new notes didn’t say that it was going to be changed, and his spotlight never reflected that change, I can confidently and unequivocally say that people should have known that this was a bug. I did. I ranked mine knowing full well that Kabam could fix it at any time.
Do I think Kabam should have deal with this sooner? Yes. But I will also give them the small benefit of not remembering IF there were any major issues occurring at the time of, or shortly after, his buff. We know that a few months after his buff is when the input issues occurred but I don’t remember if there was something big or gamebreaking just before that either.
I agree that it’s not immediate reasoning to leave him in the bugged state. If Kabam want to leave him like that, I think that’s great. I don’t think many people demand he should 100% be left like that, and Kabam need to do that. But we can all agree that the game wasn’t broken by him being the way he is. He wasn’t overpowered. It would be a nice gesture for Kabam to let people continue enjoying the game and the characters they’ve grown to love.
All the stuff you’ve mentioned means it was likely it was a bug. Yes, but there was no confirmation.
I didn’t think it was likely that it was just a description change. In fact, I thought it was probably a bug, but until kabam has confirmed whether or not, it could have been either way.
There is a level of user accountability to have common sense in these matters, and even if by some measure you can find yourself doubting the legitimacy of a potential issue there is an even greater accountability for the resources that you’re willing to sacrifice for an unintended mechanic.
Again, Kabam absolutely should have addressed this sooner. I will give them some small benefit of the last year of issues due to probably spending way more time and resources on the input problem than they would have liked, however the first couple of months after his buff are almost inexcusable. They may truly have been unaware, as we know the community tries to keep quiet about any pro-player bugs as possible, we’ve seen that many times and even within threads that people did create about MMs bug, there were people who were trying to hush others from taking about it in case Kabam decided to address it.
There was a chance Kabam decided that’s how he should work, and it wasn’t a bug. How high that chance is, is up to you. The immutable fact is that there was no confirmation.
In your golden goose example, I’m not saying “it looks like a bug, it smells like a bug but it’s not a bug”. I’m saying there was no confirmation. The only straw man around here is yours, pretending that that’s the argument I’m making.
The point of what I’m saying is that Kabam owe us some sort of solution above just fixing the bug. Whether that’s Rank 4 to 3 rank down gems at the lower end which is a minimum, or leaving Moleman as he is, which is an unnecessary (but awesome) maximum.
The reason why they owe us that solution is because they never told us, hence us not being able to be sure about whether it was a bug.
Kabam did know, or at least, Kabam Ziibit knew when he moved several threads discussing that topic. And if he didn’t know, then he failed in his job to alert higher ups. And if he did alert higher ups then they failed to communicate it. Essentially, somewhere in the chain somebody failed. I don’t know who that was, and it doesn’t matter, but that is the reason it is not ok for Kabam to just fix his bug out of nowhere.
I’ve made all these points before, so I feel I’m going a little round in circles. I’ll probably leave this particular conversation here
Your literal argument is “Hey this thing, looks like a bug, but until someone tells me it is a bug, I cannot say for certain”. Which is where the point about common sense comes in. We as people can look at a thing that looks a certain way and ascertain with a very good degree what that thing is supposed to do or not. If you see a bicycle with a missing front wheel, you don’t look at it and think “Oh that’s a unicycle” you think “Huh… that bike is missing a wheel”.
Should there be Rank Downs? I don’t know and that I’ve neither strong opinions for or against it.
I won’t go over the Kabam failure again, I think I’ve made it clear several times that there was some failure for some reason.
And as I said in an early reply when I misread the conversation, Kabam is absolutely within their right to fix it now and it is ok for them to do so if they deem fit. We as consumers don’t have to like that, but we have to accept that.
We have a difference of opinion about how important the confirmation is. I accept your opinion but I disagree with it. Until you show me an example of Kabam saying “Moleman is bugged” I’m afraid there isn’t confirmation.
I’ve made my points, not interested in going over and over.
If you can show proof of Kabam saying that “This is intended”, then there was never any reason to believe that it was. The burden of evidence has to be provided by both parties, and if one side has and the other does not, then it is clear which side is correct.
People can say it is fine that it is a bug that Kabam has corrected - it is entirely true that Kabam is entirely within their rights to correct it.
Kabam can also choose to not communicate with players as well for over a year - kind of a **** move, but still entirely within their purview to not comment on 1 aspect of one champion's ability.
BUT.... players have the right to demand for better communication, both in terms of current situations (Eg. Moleman) and to improve any future 'bugs' that may occur.
I don't entirely agree with the clamoring for RDTs, but Kabam clearly dropped the ball in how this Moleman situation has rolled out.
Imagine if King Groot's Malice bug on the recent update received no response from Kabam - regardless of if you know it is a bug (in-game behavior doesn't match the description), it still is great that Kabam confirmed it to be. If we simply instead had gotten no response throughout June, and then just saw in the July patch notes about it being fixed, we would still be pissed at the lack of communication.
I always assumed that he kept his true strike while in frenzy, and this was an intended effect.
Given its duration of well over a year, this comes across as an intentional downgrading of moleman’s ability’s. It has taken me by surprise. There was no warning. I am disappointed. Kabam should offer rank down tickets as others have stated.
Better yet just change the description and leave him in as is, that way the community will be happy. After all it’s the people who play the game that should be valued and listened to.