Why is it fair that AA and domino stop the kraven abilities that are supposed to help us

I’m sorry but ability accuracy reduction shouldn’t shut down mechanics that are meant to help you get through the fight. Code that in its not hard

Comments

Looperdude55

He’ll add force of will so that we can use domino and AA properly make the fight fair

TyEdge

Last time I checked, it was “ability accuracy reduction” and not “ability accuracy reduction for abilities I don’t approve of”

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DNA3000

I’m sorry but ability accuracy reduction shouldn’t shut down mechanics that are meant to help you get through the fight.

Why not?

Mechanics are neutral. They do what they do. It is up to the player to figure out how to make them for for the player, and if they don't do this properly then they get hit in the face by them.

Mechanics are never there to universally help you. They are there to give you the opportunity to use them to help you. Healing is there to help you, until Spectre reverses it and kills you. Shock damage is there to help you defeat the defender, until you try to use it against another player's Silver Surfer and he starts healing from it. Buffs are beneficial effects, until you run into something that nullifies them off you and kills you with them.

Ability accuracy reduction can help you turn stuff off, but you don't get to tell it which things to turn off. If ability accuracy reduction is not something that will benefit you in a particular fight, you're supposed to figure that out and decide to bring something that doesn't have AAR to the fight, not ask that the rules of the game be changed so you can bring a poor match up to a fight and have it magically work the way you want it to work.

The reason why the game is more complex than two champions taking turns hitting each other with a stick is because thinking about how the game works is part of the game. The tappy tappy part is just the last step in wining a fight, the first step happens in the brain first, and the higher you progress in the game, the more important that step is.

Crine60

I’m sorry but ability accuracy reduction shouldn’t shut down mechanics that are meant to help you get through the fight.
Why not?

Mechanics are neutral. They do what they do. It is up to the player to figure out how to make them for for the player, and if they don't do this properly then they get hit in the face by them.

Mechanics are never there to universally help you. They are there to give you the opportunity to use them to help you. Healing is there to help you, until Spectre reverses it and kills you. Shock damage is there to help you defeat the defender, until you try to use it against another player's Silver Surfer and he starts healing from it. Buffs are beneficial effects, until you run into something that nullifies them off you and kills you with them.

Ability accuracy reduction can help you turn stuff off, but you don't get to tell it which things to turn off. If ability accuracy reduction is not something that will benefit you in a particular fight, you're supposed to figure that out and decide to bring something that doesn't have AAR to the fight, not ask that the rules of the game be changed so you can bring a poor match up to a fight and have it magically work the way you want it to work.

The reason why the game is more complex than two champions taking turns hitting each other with a stick is because thinking about how the game works is part of the game. The tappy tappy part is just the last step in wining a fight, the first step happens in the brain first, and the higher you progress in the game, the more important that step is.

IIRC when they were doing strikers last time (or maybe it was somewhere else) they added some parts of multi part abilities that would trigger when actions were taken against the opponent even if AAR prevented other things. They have shown they both have the ability to allow things to activate for us even when AAR is in play as well as showing that they think some things should not be affected by AAR so I am not sure that it is unreasonable to want that to apply to all of the beneficial node effects for us that are prevented by AAR.

I really don't understand why the special node effects need to be applied to the enemy to then be triggered on us instead of just giving us the conditional effect in the fight since us using AAR on an opponent is supposed to effect them and not us. I don't know if the coding to apply an effect directly on us absent using a boost or something is something they haven't created and would be too difficult for them to do but it seems strange if they couldn't do that.

DNA3000

I’m sorry but ability accuracy reduction shouldn’t shut down mechanics that are meant to help you get through the fight.
Why not?

Mechanics are neutral. They do what they do. It is up to the player to figure out how to make them for for the player, and if they don't do this properly then they get hit in the face by them.

Mechanics are never there to universally help you. They are there to give you the opportunity to use them to help you. Healing is there to help you, until Spectre reverses it and kills you. Shock damage is there to help you defeat the defender, until you try to use it against another player's Silver Surfer and he starts healing from it. Buffs are beneficial effects, until you run into something that nullifies them off you and kills you with them.

Ability accuracy reduction can help you turn stuff off, but you don't get to tell it which things to turn off. If ability accuracy reduction is not something that will benefit you in a particular fight, you're supposed to figure that out and decide to bring something that doesn't have AAR to the fight, not ask that the rules of the game be changed so you can bring a poor match up to a fight and have it magically work the way you want it to work.

The reason why the game is more complex than two champions taking turns hitting each other with a stick is because thinking about how the game works is part of the game. The tappy tappy part is just the last step in wining a fight, the first step happens in the brain first, and the higher you progress in the game, the more important that step is.
IIRC when they were doing strikers last time (or maybe it was somewhere else) they added some parts of multi part abilities that would trigger when actions were taken against the opponent even if AAR prevented other things. They have shown they both have the ability to allow things to activate for us even when AAR is in play as well as showing that they think some things should not be affected by AAR so I am not sure that it is unreasonable to want that to apply to all of the beneficial node effects for us that are prevented by AAR.

I really don't understand why the special node effects need to be applied to the enemy to then be triggered on us instead of just giving us the conditional effect in the fight since us using AAR on an opponent is supposed to effect them and not us. I don't know if the coding to apply an effect directly on us absent using a boost or something is something they haven't created and would be too difficult for them to do but it seems strange if they couldn't do that.

I never said the developers couldn't do it. I said players shouldn't expect the developers to do it.

Node effects are not "applied" to the defender and then "applied" to us. All abilities, and that includes nodes, have an originator. All effects have a target. Node abilities generally are designed with the defender as the source, and some of the effects of nodes have the defender as the target and some have the attacker as the target.

"Beneficial node effects" are subjective. There are effects that benefit some champions and not others. Who is going to decide which node benefits are "supposed to" benefit the player and which are not, and which champions will thus benefit from those node effects and which are not? You?

If we're just going to pick and choose which things we want to function and which we can just decide to not function just because, why bother playing the game? Why not just decide you win all the fights, the end. That death mechanic? I don't like that one when it affects me. I don't mind when it affects the defender.

Looperdude55

If my only way to gain a bar of power is because of a node then I should gain that bar of power every special attack regardless of neurotoxins or domino making it fail. It’s not fair that there abilities hurt them in a high level limited champ pool fight like EOP

K00shMaan

It's not that they can't program it to happen, it's that it not necessarily black and white as to whether an effect is supposed to make a fight easier.

Take this fight for example. When Venom OmNomNoms a Buff via his SP1, it is classified as a Nullify and Kraven receives a bar of Power. When Venompool OmNomNoms a Buff via his SP1, it is not classified as a Nullify and Kraven does not receive a bar of Power. I have heard people recommend each champ over the other because of this interaction. The point is that opinion is subjective so it can be very difficult to just decide what interactions are pro player and then have them not get affected by AAR. Much more straightforward forward to have it work the way it does now.

Crine60

I’m sorry but ability accuracy reduction shouldn’t shut down mechanics that are meant to help you get through the fight.
Why not?

Mechanics are neutral. They do what they do. It is up to the player to figure out how to make them for for the player, and if they don't do this properly then they get hit in the face by them.

Mechanics are never there to universally help you. They are there to give you the opportunity to use them to help you. Healing is there to help you, until Spectre reverses it and kills you. Shock damage is there to help you defeat the defender, until you try to use it against another player's Silver Surfer and he starts healing from it. Buffs are beneficial effects, until you run into something that nullifies them off you and kills you with them.

Ability accuracy reduction can help you turn stuff off, but you don't get to tell it which things to turn off. If ability accuracy reduction is not something that will benefit you in a particular fight, you're supposed to figure that out and decide to bring something that doesn't have AAR to the fight, not ask that the rules of the game be changed so you can bring a poor match up to a fight and have it magically work the way you want it to work.

The reason why the game is more complex than two champions taking turns hitting each other with a stick is because thinking about how the game works is part of the game. The tappy tappy part is just the last step in wining a fight, the first step happens in the brain first, and the higher you progress in the game, the more important that step is.
IIRC when they were doing strikers last time (or maybe it was somewhere else) they added some parts of multi part abilities that would trigger when actions were taken against the opponent even if AAR prevented other things. They have shown they both have the ability to allow things to activate for us even when AAR is in play as well as showing that they think some things should not be affected by AAR so I am not sure that it is unreasonable to want that to apply to all of the beneficial node effects for us that are prevented by AAR.

I really don't understand why the special node effects need to be applied to the enemy to then be triggered on us instead of just giving us the conditional effect in the fight since us using AAR on an opponent is supposed to effect them and not us. I don't know if the coding to apply an effect directly on us absent using a boost or something is something they haven't created and would be too difficult for them to do but it seems strange if they couldn't do that.
I never said the developers couldn't do it. I said players shouldn't expect the developers to do it.

Node effects are not "applied" to the defender and then "applied" to us. All abilities, and that includes nodes, have an originator. All effects have a target. Node abilities generally are designed with the defender as the source, and some of the effects of nodes have the defender as the target and some have the attacker as the target.

"Beneficial node effects" are subjective. There are effects that benefit some champions and not others. Who is going to decide which node benefits are "supposed to" benefit the player and which are not, and which champions will thus benefit from those node effects and which are not? You?

If we're just going to pick and choose which things we want to function and which we can just decide to not function just because, why bother playing the game? Why not just decide you win all the fights, the end. That death mechanic? I don't like that one when it affects me. I don't mind when it affects the defender.

I wasn't trying to say you said they couldn't do it or that they should have to do it. I realize looking through the posts a bit more that this may be just talking about some specific fights with EOP or something. I wasn't trying to address that but was just commenting on this concept in general, throughout other game content.

I don't have a technical understanding or vocabulary for coding and game design so I am sorry if I phrased things incorrectly.

You did say the node abilities are "generally" designed with the defender as the source which I take to mean they can be done with the attacker as the source so that maybe AAR wouldn't interfere with certain things but it may have just been a general phrase you were using. I always assumed AAR affected some of the abilities/nodes that most people wouldn't want them to because they didn't consider having champs we could use who would have AAR abilities when they designed how the systems work. I thought it was an oversight or not wanting to go back and change things when new mechanics were added but if it is an intentional design choice then of course it is their game and they can design its' challenges however they feel is appropriate.

I don't think they should have to change anything myself or that it should be an exhaustive thing where every possible interaction is looked at and evaluated. I just think that in certain cases, like when they made the strikers and gave them special effects that could be applied beyond just the attack damage, that those are things that could be looked at as they are making them. That was the main reason I brought up the striker example originally; I believe the 1st iteration didn't have any of the effects apply when using AAR but they changed it with the 2nd (I may be misremembering and am not stating this as absolute fact). It just seemed weird to me that they did allow some of the node effects to occur regardless of AAR but didn't allow all of the effects to apply.

As far as beneficial effects being subjective, of course I agree with that in some cases. There are certain things though that I believe get interfered with by AAR that I don't see as being only subjectively beneficial, though I haven't spent a long time analyzing it. For example, I believe the node that makes it so you have to knock an enemy down to be able to KO them can be interfered with and things like the striker giving you unblockable or unstoppable was an issue. These things don't really seem like things only some people would think are helpful or could hurt you in some situations. I am sure there are other similar kinds of effects as well.

I am not saying we shouldn't have to play the game around AAR interfering with these kinds of things but I guess the main point I was trying to make was that it doesn't seem unreasonable to ask why it can't be reexamined.

Sorry for the long post, it is late and I am tired so it may be a bit rambling.

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Farrukh_tv

I dont agree with your AAR backfiring on this node cause you already lose out on gaining power normally from matador. To take take away the power your supposed to gain from their SPs because of AAR feels like double the penalty. It feels like getting cheated.

but you chose to "Reduce" the Matador node's AA along with the other nodes. Yes, you are getting penalized in this case but you also gain an advantage because other nodes are also failing. And you should make that decision should you bring AAR and sacrifice your ability to gain power but make other parts of the fight easier or find another way to counter the nodes

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Kerneas

AAR always affected these nodes. Just like Slow affects Fight or Flight on both champs. AAR is a fouble edged sword and it's fine

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Farrukh_tv

I dont agree with your AAR backfiring on this node cause you already lose out on gaining power normally from matador. To take take away the power your supposed to gain from their SPs because of AAR feels like double the penalty. It feels like getting cheated.
but you chose to "Reduce" the Matador node's AA along with the other nodes. Yes, you are getting penalized in this case but you also gain an advantage because other nodes are also failing. And you should make that decision should you bring AAR and sacrifice your ability to gain power but make other parts of the fight easier or find another way to counter the nodes
While your point is somewhat valid the problem for me is the fact the AAR only half shuts down the matador effect. If it is shuttting it down to prevent me from getting power on defenders SP activation why doesnt the same shut down allow me to gain power through regular attacks. This should work both ways in my opinion

The problem is Matador node has 2 parts, first part being "The Attacker gains 1 Bar of Power every time the Defender Activates a Special Attack" second part is "This is the only way the Attacker can gain Power in this fight." and second part is applied at the start of the fight and it cant be prevented. just like heal block, any debuff immunity nodes work. 1 st part happens during the fight and is counted as an ability that's why it can fail.

OWENS

I used domino and got the solo, used an sp3 and the AAR turned off the unblockable/unstoppable, 12k bleed per tick and refreshed with sp1... it took me about 20 tries between last night and this morning to get it right,but better than using revives imo

LordSmasher

I dont agree with your AAR backfiring on this node cause you already lose out on gaining power normally from matador. To take take away the power your supposed to gain from their SPs because of AAR feels like double the penalty. It feels like getting cheated.

This. If AAR is preventing you from getting power, it should prevent you from not getting power.

Gameplay should trump mechanics everyime. This game is super complex with a huge amount of interactions and reducing the complexity should be a priority.
I know people who have quit the game because "I'm sicking of youtubing for 15 mins to do a 3 minute fight".

Lucky7Luciano

What the heck did I just read

Kerneas

AAR always affected these nodes. Just like Slow affects Fight or Flight on both champs. AAR is a fouble edged sword and it's fine
Is it double edged? It only shuts down matador's ability to give you power through defender SP activation. It doesnt stop matador's ability to prevent you from gaining power from regular attacks. Why doesnt it work both ways?

Fair point. I see WHY that happens. The "gain no power" part was activated with unreduced 100% AA at the beginning, and it is going on for the entire fight. If CGR gives Armorbreak to villains, it also lasts entire fight even through AAR. That makes sense. If it's fair, idk. I don't find it bad but that doesn't mean you are wrong

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Sw0rdMaster

🧀🧀🧀Do the doom cheese dance, bebe

How are you going to do the other 2 objectives?

Looperdude55

Kabam made the objectives so that’s why we have to use certain champs it’s not that we choose to do it for fun kabam is making use a small pool to get the objectives and I agree if there abilities prevent matador bar of power gain why am in it gaining power on basic attacks from the node apparently being shut down. If the node is truly shut down I should be gaining power in the normal way. So clearly kabam can control those aspects of ability accuracy reduction

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DarkEternity

Cry harder, I had to use Mags to one shot. You can do it with an AA

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DarkEternity

Cry harder, I had to use Mags to one shot. You can do it with an AA
Sounds like you are the one who is crying. And you didnt have to use anybody. Just because you chose to do it a certain way doesn't mean anything.

I did it with Domino, Venom, and Doom to hit all the objectives. That's not the point. This thread is about the questionable interaction of matador node, AAR, and how AAR only partially affects the node.

Actually, the thread came about because OP didn’t want to deal with Kraven becoming slightly inconvenient because of AAR. Can you read?

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DarkEternity

Cry harder, I had to use Mags to one shot. You can do it with an AA
Sounds like you are the one who is crying. And you didnt have to use anybody. Just because you chose to do it a certain way doesn't mean anything.

I did it with Domino, Venom, and Doom to hit all the objectives. That's not the point. This thread is about the questionable interaction of matador node, AAR, and how AAR only partially affects the node.
Actually, the thread came about because OP didn’t want to deal with Kraven becoming slightly inconvenient because of AAR. Can you read?
You mean like AAR and matador on Kraven? Clearly i can read better than you.

Now go back to crying about using Mags which got you a whole 0 objectives accomplished

Mags is X-Force, incredible reading comprehension from yourself 😳

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