**RESOLVED ISSUE WITH SIDE QUEST KEYS**
The game team has resolved this issue. Keys will be distributed via in-game messages and the quest timer will be extended.
More information and timeline here.
*This includes currently unclaimable keys as well*
**WINTER OF WOE - BONUS OBJECTIVE POINT**
As previously announced, the team will be distributing an additional point toward milestones to anyone who completed the Absorbing Man fight in the first step of the Winter of Woe.
This point will be distributed at a later time as it requires the team to pull and analyze data.
The timeline has not been set, but work has started.

Let's be honest, there are really no other benefits to reaching the higher levels of progression...

ValrozValroz Posts: 157 ★★
A...subject continued...(Uncollected, Cavalier, Thronebreaker, Paragon, ? (someday)...except:

1. Access to later end game content whether story mode or the monthly EQ/side/"sub-side" events like EOP)
2. Cheaper cost of items in the stores
3. Access to higher tier rank up materials
4. The "title" to show off what rank you are
5. Access to better rewards in the unit store or offers

(Nothing here really directly benefits the Summoner per se in terms of negotiating the actual fighting except of being able to grow your roster faster than someone who is lower rank than you).

B. Why doesn't the Kabam game dev team consider providing the following as you progress in summoner rank:

1. Additional levels (10 more would be nice)
2. Additional masteries (10 more would be optimum)
3. Access to certain special nodes or pre-fight abilities not available to lower ranks

Imagine if Kabam considers "B," for a moment. It solves a plethora of problems. Allowing higher tier players to have access to levels, masteries and special nodes will enable them (us) to negotiate more end game content with the power and abilities justified for their rank. The highly problematic mystic path in this month's newly released Thronebreaker difficulty level EQ will be mitigated and/or compensated for that special power that a Thronebreaker or Paragon player will have (like a semi-direct counter for the node that will lessen its harshness).

While this might be an unfair or comparing-apples-to-oranges comparison, imagine a Level 60 Fighter's only difference with a Level 30 fighter is that he can buy a +5 Plate Mail cheaper from the blacksmith. But in actual combat they are at par with their fighting abilities. Or a Level 60 Wizard's fireball has the same damage as the fireball of a Level 30 Wizard.

There are so many ways to spin this off. It's just really frustrating, after reaching Paragon, there's not much difference from an Uncollected player except those I stated in "A".

Thoughts?
«1

Comments

  • FrostGiantLordFrostGiantLord Posts: 1,503 ★★★★
    Yeah, I agree. They need to add more content for UC+ players. The gap between UC and TB is especially lacking, without any specifically targeted quest towards UC and Cav players. TB and above have access to things such as EOP and the Gauntlet. However, BGs helps to add more variety to the game, and is doing a good job at keeping the game alive.
  • CrusaderjrCrusaderjr Posts: 1,059 ★★★★
    imagine thinking staying uncollected paying out more or not having a difference in rewards in a month, than cav, now imagine the same argument comparing it to paragon :D
    50 daily uncollected crystals wouldnt even come close to a single TB daily crystal.
    bro you got some outlandish thoughts...
  • ValrozValroz Posts: 157 ★★
    I think op means literally in a fight there's no difference between progression levels.

    This sums up what I said, basically.

    There should be at least some kind of fighting "perk" provided for every level of advancement in rank progression.

    Maybe a better metaphor or analogy would be the mythic rank in the popular Pathfinders Game series by Owlcat. When you get to Mythic rank, your character will be given special powers that is not available before you reached the mythic status.

    @Crusaderjr I never said to take out whatever is already the rewards system. My concern is the fighting power or ability. Everything stays the same except that Kabam consider adding perks that will be commensurate to the rank you are in.
  • ValrozValroz Posts: 157 ★★
    And I do not understand how adding several more levels or masteries will "hurt" the game where the meta is at right now that 7*s are in the horizon. Sure 6*s were given that unique ability adrenaline. But why stop at giving unique ability to "*s"? Why not expand providing unique abilities to a Summoner's rank as well?

    Or maybe the relics mechanic can be incorporated into this idea of giving a fighting perk on a summoner's rank in the game?

    Of course it's cool to be Paragon and all but there should be more than just easier game economics that benefits reaching Paragon.
  • ValrozValroz Posts: 157 ★★

    Absolutely not. This is horrendous

    So if you were an "archmage (Paragon), you're perfectly fine that your fireball does the same damage as a non-archmage level mage?

    I think not.
  • IvarTheBonelessIvarTheBoneless Posts: 1,218 ★★★★
    edited January 2023
    Double comlent and cant delete. Ignore.
  • ValrozValroz Posts: 157 ★★
    edited January 2023

    Valroz said:

    Absolutely not. This is horrendous

    So if you were an "archmage (Paragon), you're perfectly fine that your fireball does the same damage as a non-archmage level mage?

    I think not.
    I think yes. Because as an archmage (paragon) my fireball (6r4) does more damage than a non archmage (6r2/3).

    You see where your analogy with another game isn't 100% correct?

    Shouldn't your comparison be: You're using an R4 6* as an Archmage (Paragon) vs a "Pre-Archmage" (Thronebreaker) also using an R4 6* doing the same damage? Both of you are Level 60, except as Paragon, you have reached Mythic status (of sorts).

    Shouldn't you have at least 1 strategic advantage as a Paragon over the Thronebreaker in dealing damage, all else being equal.

    Yes, I agree, Pathfinders Wrath of the Righteous might not be the best game to compare but it's the only game I can think of at the moment that can somewhat get my point across. haha

    Okay this is a long shot. Shouldn't the Catholic Pope have special privilege over the other Cardinals who are technically also his level, except that he is Pope? LOL. Pope would be a Level 60 Cleric casting a Turn Undead Spell vs Cardinal also Level 60 Cleric casting Turn Undead ... the Pope should turn more undead right? haha.
  • TheLightBringerTheLightBringer Posts: 453 ★★★★
    You buy cheaper items with increased amounts from every store in game based on progression, paragons got better rewards in EOP for almost an entire year, xmas gift, calendar were based on progression, higher levels of difficulty locked for certain progression levels on monthly eq.


    I think that's alot of staff you get when you progress.
  • IvarTheBonelessIvarTheBoneless Posts: 1,218 ★★★★

    Valroz said:

    Absolutely not. This is horrendous

    So if you were an "archmage (Paragon), you're perfectly fine that your fireball does the same damage as a non-archmage level mage?

    I think not.
    I think yes. Because as an archmage (paragon) my fireball (6r4) does more damage than a non archmage (6r2/3).

    You see where your analogy with another mage isn't 100% correct?
    Valroz said:

    Valroz said:

    Absolutely not. This is horrendous

    So if you were an "archmage (Paragon), you're perfectly fine that your fireball does the same damage as a non-archmage level mage?

    I think not.
    I think yes. Because as an archmage (paragon) my fireball (6r4) does more damage than a non archmage (6r2/3).

    You see where your analogy with another game isn't 100% correct?

    Shouldn't your comparison be: You're using an R4 6* as an Archmage (Paragon) vs a "Pre-Archmage" (Thronebreaker) also using an R4 6* doing the same damage? Both of you are Level 60, except as Paragon, you have reached Mythic status (of sorts).

    Shouldn't you have at least 1 strategic advantage as a Paragon over the Thronebreaker in dealing damage, all else being equal.

    Yes, I agree, Pathfinders Wrath of the Righteous might not be the best game to compare but it's the only game I can think of at the moment that can somewhat get my point across. haha

    Okay this is a long shot. Shouldn't the Catholic Pope have special privilege over the other Cardinals who are technically also his level, except that he is Pope? LOL. Pope would be a Level 60 Cleric casting a Turn Undead Spell vs Cardinal also Level 60 Cleric casting Turn Undead ... the Pope should turn more undead right? haha.
    As a paragon you have a strategic advantage in dealing damage over a thronebreaker. Your advantage isn't shown in a fight but in your number of options to win the fight. I get what you mean but I think its unnecessary for mcoc.

    Let me turn your first analogy around: i shouldn't have an advantage with a 6r4 (paragon) vs the same 6r4 (thronebreaker). Correct that we're both lvl 60 but the one with mythic status (paragon) has much more access to r4 materials that he will have more 6r4. So while thronebreakee will have 1 or 2 (3 at most) options, the paragon player will at least have 4 options at that power level.

    I hope I explained myself well. You can't compare mcoc to the genre of games you mentioned because roster building is such a great aspect of mcoc. You aren't just one character but you are all the characters in your roster.
  • LokxLokx Posts: 281 ★★★

    Valroz said:

    Absolutely not. This is horrendous

    So if you were an "archmage (Paragon), you're perfectly fine that your fireball does the same damage as a non-archmage level mage?

    I think not.
    I think yes. Because as an archmage (paragon) my fireball (6r4) does more damage than a non archmage (6r2/3).

    You see where your analogy with another mage isn't 100% correct?
    Valroz said:

    Valroz said:

    Absolutely not. This is horrendous

    So if you were an "archmage (Paragon), you're perfectly fine that your fireball does the same damage as a non-archmage level mage?

    I think not.
    I think yes. Because as an archmage (paragon) my fireball (6r4) does more damage than a non archmage (6r2/3).

    You see where your analogy with another game isn't 100% correct?

    Shouldn't your comparison be: You're using an R4 6* as an Archmage (Paragon) vs a "Pre-Archmage" (Thronebreaker) also using an R4 6* doing the same damage? Both of you are Level 60, except as Paragon, you have reached Mythic status (of sorts).

    Shouldn't you have at least 1 strategic advantage as a Paragon over the Thronebreaker in dealing damage, all else being equal.

    Yes, I agree, Pathfinders Wrath of the Righteous might not be the best game to compare but it's the only game I can think of at the moment that can somewhat get my point across. haha

    Okay this is a long shot. Shouldn't the Catholic Pope have special privilege over the other Cardinals who are technically also his level, except that he is Pope? LOL. Pope would be a Level 60 Cleric casting a Turn Undead Spell vs Cardinal also Level 60 Cleric casting Turn Undead ... the Pope should turn more undead right? haha.
    As a paragon you have a strategic advantage in dealing damage over a thronebreaker. Your advantage isn't shown in a fight but in your number of options to win the fight. I get what you mean but I think its unnecessary for mcoc.

    Let me turn your first analogy around: i shouldn't have an advantage with a 6r4 (paragon) vs the same 6r4 (thronebreaker). Correct that we're both lvl 60 but the one with mythic status (paragon) has much more access to r4 materials that he will have more 6r4. So while thronebreakee will have 1 or 2 (3 at most) options, the paragon player will at least have 4 options at that power level.

    I hope I explained myself well. You can't compare mcoc to the genre of games you mentioned because roster building is such a great aspect of mcoc. You aren't just one character but you are all the characters in your roster.
    Just to add further to this as they said each progression level does have a difference in fire power,

    Paragon have more r4s then thorn breaker
    Thorn-breaker have less r4 but more r3 then cavs
    cav player may have less r3 but more 6* then uncollected
    Uncollected have less 6* but more r4 5* then conqueror and ect.

    This games progress level isn’t linked to how well they fight (although it may have a small part) its mainly the depth of their roster level.
  • PseudouberPseudouber Posts: 748 ★★★
    It really should unlock more levels and allow more masteries by now.
  • AverageDesiAverageDesi Posts: 5,260 ★★★★★
    Valroz said:

    Absolutely not. This is horrendous

    So if you were an "archmage (Paragon), you're perfectly fine that your fireball does the same damage as a non-archmage level mage?

    I think not.
    Yes. Absolutely. Only the Rank and level of our the champion should matter
  • GeneralMerceGeneralMerce Posts: 236 ★★
    paragon 4hr and daily crystals speak for themselves.... I'm happy with them as a nice reward for my grind
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,320 Guardian

    It really should unlock more levels and allow more masteries by now.

    Except there are no more masteries. And the problem with adding more masteries is the existing ones already tell us that if they aren't spectacular people won't use them and complain about their ineffectiveness, and if they are spectacular the devs won't be able to balance content around them except by adding nodes that neutralize them, which will cause players to complain about the content unfairly countering the expensive masteries they worked so hard to get.

    Until they can resolve that issue, no new masteries. And without new masteries to unlock no new levels. Levels are gates to other stuff, not things unto themselves. Without particularly important stuff to gate, more levels is pointless.

    The OP is basically saying "the game could do more." Which is always true. But every thing you ask for is something else you don't get to have, and you also don't get to decide which things to trade because different things require different areas of expertise and workload. You want new masteries, you can't just say well, I'll trade relics for those. You may lose things like EoP and Gauntlet instead. You might lose champion updates. Or because new masteries will change the balance metrics across the entire game, maybe what you lose is reward updates for the next two years.
  • ValrozValroz Posts: 157 ★★
    DNA3000 said:

    It really should unlock more levels and allow more masteries by now.

    Except there are no more masteries. And the problem with adding more masteries is the existing ones already tell us that if they aren't spectacular people won't use them and complain about their ineffectiveness, and if they are spectacular the devs won't be able to balance content around them except by adding nodes that neutralize them, which will cause players to complain about the content unfairly countering the expensive masteries they worked so hard to get.

    Until they can resolve that issue, no new masteries. And without new masteries to unlock no new levels. Levels are gates to other stuff, not things unto themselves. Without particularly important stuff to gate, more levels is pointless.

    The OP is basically saying "the game could do more." Which is always true. But every thing you ask for is something else you don't get to have, and you also don't get to decide which things to trade because different things require different areas of expertise and workload. You want new masteries, you can't just say well, I'll trade relics for those. You may lose things like EoP and Gauntlet instead. You might lose champion updates. Or because new masteries will change the balance metrics across the entire game, maybe what you lose is reward updates for the next two years.
    I always find your replies very insightful, DNA. It's been years since I last read your response to a post of mine from my first account.

    Anyway, from your vantage, I totally agree that the introduction of new masteries and new levels will most likely compromise other existing "perks" of higher rank players.

    Perhaps I've been too persistent relentless in comparing MCOC to a traditional Dungeons and Dragons game which both operate on very difficult mechanics, mainly that MCOC is really an action/fighting/collecting game while a game like Pathfinders is RPG/adventure/strategy.

  • Denslo500Denslo500 Posts: 900 ★★★
    Why not make more, out of what we have?

    More mastery points would allow that.

    Inequity and Resonance look interesting, but they are hard to justify with the current mastery budget.
  • SkunkcabbageSkunkcabbage Posts: 204 ★★
    Whenever I've explored story mode I feel like I've completed the game and have no direction. Ranking up champions feels pointless.. BGs has helped reduce this feeling quite a bit though.
  • NastyPhishNastyPhish Posts: 583 ★★★
    We have this. They are called masteries. And you have to spend weeks grinding to get all the mastery cores you need to unlock masteries. If not months or years.

    Would it be nice to have some kind of added base power? Sure. Oh ****. We do. Mastery points.

    I will admit titles alone don’t feel like enough. And getting a daily crystal with a mostly junk base pool doesn’t really feel like a reward.

    So sure things need to get better.

    But another 10 mastery points would go a long way towards that.
  • DawsManDawsMan Posts: 2,122 ★★★★★
    I mean once you hit thronbreaker you get a bunch of things that help you rank new champions, and paragon your daily crystals are really really good. I think masteries are something that have been discussed for a long time and we all hope we get access to new masteries or more points.
  • CederCeder Posts: 668 ★★★
    Hitting TB is huge, Paragon not so much but it's still ok
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,320 Guardian
    Valroz said:

    Perhaps I've been too persistent relentless in comparing MCOC to a traditional Dungeons and Dragons game which both operate on very difficult mechanics, mainly that MCOC is really an action/fighting/collecting game while a game like Pathfinders is RPG/adventure/strategy.

    A long time ago I was part of the Champions Online beta. In fact, I was one of the very early pre-alpha people. And there were many discussions during that time where people were comparing what the game should and would be to the pen and paper Champions RPG. My position then and now was initially controversial, until time progressed and we saw the game go from pre-alpha to alpha design to pre-beta to alpha design to beta to release (long story). And that position is basically this: PnP games are HORRIBLY broken. Champions and the HERO system especially, but all of them in general.

    The problem is that PnP games and (MMO)RPGs have one critical fundamental difference that makes how we judge balance completely different. Pathfinder (and D&D 5e) are both relatively well balanced when judged as PnP games. But if we judge them by the same standards as online games, they are childishly, unimaginably broken. What is the difference that makes the standard so different?

    PnP games have human game masters.

    Human GMs are the regulating presence that makes PnP games function. Pathfinder is not the Pathfinder 2e books. The game isn't in those books. Pathfinder is Pathfinder 2e filtered through a human being, which if you have an even half-way decent GM is a hundred times more complex and complete than the rulebooks themselves. They prevent the game's rules from being exploited to the point of completely destroying the game.

    MCOC doesn't have a GM. If there is even the slightest bit of breakage anywhere, someone is going to find it and exploit it. And while hundreds of thousands of players play Pathfinder or D&D, a game typically has less than a dozen players who all (usually) have a vested interest in not breaking the game. MCOC is played by hundreds of thousands of players *none* of whom have a vested interest in not finding and exploiting the absolute best possible performance they can get out of the game.

    Paizo can introduce any mechanics they want, any additions they want, any modifications or extensions they want, and if they are broken there are thousands of GMs ready to reject them to protect their games. If Kabam introduces a breakage, well we know from experience what happens next.

    The dynamics of PnP social role playing games is fundamentally different from that of online MMORPGs and similar games like MCOC. It would be like if there was just one massive Pathfinder campaign going on 7x24, with one super GM running it all, and all of his or her rulings were absolute, binding, and inescapable, and the vast majority of players playing this campaign had no idea who you were and had no reason not to simply TPK your alliance when they stumbled upon it just to get the better loot and then disappear back into anonymity. Pathfinder's rules would probably be a lot more rigorous, a lot more explicit, and a lot more tightly controlled than they are now.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,320 Guardian
    Denslo500 said:

    Why not make more, out of what we have?

    More mastery points would allow that.

    Inequity and Resonance look interesting, but they are hard to justify with the current mastery budget.

    And that's why there is a mastery budget. It is there so you have to choose. If there were enough points that players didn't have to choose, that would literally eliminate the purpose of masteries. The purpose of masteries is not to give you more power. The purpose of masteries is to give players choices, and force them to choose.

    There are players who take inequity and/or resonance. They looked at the same masteries you did, but they made a different choice. If there were enough mastery points to allow you to take those, and allow the people who took them to take what you took instead, then in effect your choices would matter less, because you both would get more of what you want, and in the process look more alike. Choice would no longer differentiate you, and as a result choice would cease to matter.

    Games and game design are fundamentally about choice. Creating choices, presenting choices, and ensuring that choices matter.
  • CoppinCoppin Posts: 2,601 ★★★★★
    Valroz said:

    A...subject continued...(Uncollected, Cavalier, Thronebreaker, Paragon, ? (someday)...except:

    1. Access to later end game content whether story mode or the monthly EQ/side/"sub-side" events like EOP)
    2. Cheaper cost of items in the stores
    3. Access to higher tier rank up materials
    4. The "title" to show off what rank you are
    5. Access to better rewards in the unit store or offers

    (Nothing here really directly benefits the Summoner per se in terms of negotiating the actual fighting except of being able to grow your roster faster than someone who is lower rank than you).

    B. Why doesn't the Kabam game dev team consider providing the following as you progress in summoner rank:

    1. Additional levels (10 more would be nice)
    2. Additional masteries (10 more would be optimum)
    3. Access to certain special nodes or pre-fight abilities not available to lower ranks

    Imagine if Kabam considers "B," for a moment. It solves a plethora of problems. Allowing higher tier players to have access to levels, masteries and special nodes will enable them (us) to negotiate more end game content with the power and abilities justified for their rank. The highly problematic mystic path in this month's newly released Thronebreaker difficulty level EQ will be mitigated and/or compensated for that special power that a Thronebreaker or Paragon player will have (like a semi-direct counter for the node that will lessen its harshness).

    While this might be an unfair or comparing-apples-to-oranges comparison, imagine a Level 60 Fighter's only difference with a Level 30 fighter is that he can buy a +5 Plate Mail cheaper from the blacksmith. But in actual combat they are at par with their fighting abilities. Or a Level 60 Wizard's fireball has the same damage as the fireball of a Level 30 Wizard.

    There are so many ways to spin this off. It's just really frustrating, after reaching Paragon, there's not much difference from an Uncollected player except those I stated in "A".

    Thoughts?

    So there is no benefits; but somehow u managed to list 5....
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,320 Guardian
    Coppin said:

    Valroz said:

    A...subject continued...(Uncollected, Cavalier, Thronebreaker, Paragon, ? (someday)...except:

    1. Access to later end game content whether story mode or the monthly EQ/side/"sub-side" events like EOP)
    2. Cheaper cost of items in the stores
    3. Access to higher tier rank up materials
    4. The "title" to show off what rank you are
    5. Access to better rewards in the unit store or offers

    (Nothing here really directly benefits the Summoner per se in terms of negotiating the actual fighting except of being able to grow your roster faster than someone who is lower rank than you).

    B. Why doesn't the Kabam game dev team consider providing the following as you progress in summoner rank:

    1. Additional levels (10 more would be nice)
    2. Additional masteries (10 more would be optimum)
    3. Access to certain special nodes or pre-fight abilities not available to lower ranks

    Imagine if Kabam considers "B," for a moment. It solves a plethora of problems. Allowing higher tier players to have access to levels, masteries and special nodes will enable them (us) to negotiate more end game content with the power and abilities justified for their rank. The highly problematic mystic path in this month's newly released Thronebreaker difficulty level EQ will be mitigated and/or compensated for that special power that a Thronebreaker or Paragon player will have (like a semi-direct counter for the node that will lessen its harshness).

    While this might be an unfair or comparing-apples-to-oranges comparison, imagine a Level 60 Fighter's only difference with a Level 30 fighter is that he can buy a +5 Plate Mail cheaper from the blacksmith. But in actual combat they are at par with their fighting abilities. Or a Level 60 Wizard's fireball has the same damage as the fireball of a Level 30 Wizard.

    There are so many ways to spin this off. It's just really frustrating, after reaching Paragon, there's not much difference from an Uncollected player except those I stated in "A".

    Thoughts?

    So there is no benefits; but somehow u managed to list 5....
    I sent you a police car, a boat, and a helicopter. What more do you want from me?
Sign In or Register to comment.