Really?

Wong_99

Mesmerize is some real BS. 7% chance to evade, and I try 5 hits, 4 of them are evaded. Really, Kabam? What are the chances

Pikolu

The chances are about 7% per hit.

Joking aside, mesmerize definitely does suck, I recommend only hitting them while they're stunned or if you have a champion with slow. Alternative counters are like stryfe where they can't evade his medium and heavy hits.

ItsDamien

If I recall certain types of evade have a duration, much like Ultrons, so even if they evade the first hit they’ll continue evading for a bit afterwards. I feel like @DNA3000 made a post about “Evade states” years ago but I might have imagined it.

DNA3000

Wong_99 said:

Mesmerize is some real BS. 7% chance to evade, and I try 5 hits, 4 of them are evaded. Really, Kabam? What are the chances

If you are swinging continuously, 7%.

One thing most players are unaware of is that evade does not work the way you think it works. You probably think that when a champion has a chance to evade, that chance is applied to every single swing. But actually, when "evade" is triggered it persists for a short window of time. Otherwise, evade would be worthless: we could just swing twice at any champion with a chance to evade and be almost guaranteed to land a hit - conversely, when our own champs tried to evade the AI that evade would trigger once, and any attack that took two swipes would only get evaded once, and then you'd still get hit.

A long time ago experiments and observations showed that when a champion "evades" what happens is for a brief window of time they evade everything heading their way. That's how Black Widow with her low evade chance can evade an entire combo in sequence. If you trigger her evade, she will evade your entire combo much of the time. The same thing is true of mesmerize: if you trigger its evade you have to back off or studder into a hit. You won't be able to "overcome" the evade by rapid-firing attacks. It is the rapid fire itself that causes all of those attacks to be "seen" as a single sequence of attacks to evade. Slow down, and the next swing won't be seen as part of the sequence, and you can clip them with the next attack after the evade.

As far as I'm aware, all triggered evades work like this. Spider-Man, Nightcrawler, Ultron, Black Widow, anything with a small chance to evade will evade multiple rapid fire swings in sequence when their evade is triggered. This allows them to evade multi-hit special attacks and closely spaced basic attacks with one evade.

Pseudo_19

DNA3000 said:

Wong_99 said:

Mesmerize is some real BS. 7% chance to evade, and I try 5 hits, 4 of them are evaded. Really, Kabam? What are the chances

If you are swinging continuously, 7%.

One thing most players are unaware of is that evade does not work the way you think it works. You probably think that when a champion has a chance to evade, that chance is applied to every single swing. But actually, when "evade" is triggered it persists for a short window of time. Otherwise, evade would be worthless: we could just swing twice at any champion with a chance to evade and be almost guaranteed to land a hit - conversely, when our own champs tried to evade the AI that evade would trigger once, and any attack that took two swipes would only get evaded once, and then you'd still get hit.

A long time ago experiments and observations showed that when a champion "evades" what happens is for a brief window of time they evade everything heading their way. That's how Black Widow with her low evade chance can evade an entire combo in sequence. If you trigger her evade, she will evade your entire combo much of the time. The same thing is true of mesmerize: if you trigger its evade you have to back off or studder into a hit. You won't be able to "overcome" the evade by rapid-firing attacks. It is the rapid fire itself that causes all of those attacks to be "seen" as a single sequence of attacks to evade. Slow down, and the next swing won't be seen as part of the sequence, and you can clip them with the next attack after the evade.

As far as I'm aware, all triggered evades work like this. Spider-Man, Nightcrawler, Ultron, Black Widow, anything with a small chance to evade will evade multiple rapid fire swings in sequence when their evade is triggered. This allows them to evade multi-hit special attacks and closely spaced basic attacks with one evade.

So what interaction is going on when I fight sym spidey and nightcrawler where they evade once but during my aggressive “tap tap tap tap tap tap tap” for light attacks, the second one will connect after they evade the first. (I fight a nightcrawler in AQ map 7 with hulking and sym spidey with Galan). The way you described it makes me think it would only work if I slowed down my 5 combo but a lot of times it’ll connect if I rapid fire light attacks.

DNA3000

Pseudo_19 said:

DNA3000 said:

Wong_99 said:

Mesmerize is some real BS. 7% chance to evade, and I try 5 hits, 4 of them are evaded. Really, Kabam? What are the chances

If you are swinging continuously, 7%.

One thing most players are unaware of is that evade does not work the way you think it works. You probably think that when a champion has a chance to evade, that chance is applied to every single swing. But actually, when "evade" is triggered it persists for a short window of time. Otherwise, evade would be worthless: we could just swing twice at any champion with a chance to evade and be almost guaranteed to land a hit - conversely, when our own champs tried to evade the AI that evade would trigger once, and any attack that took two swipes would only get evaded once, and then you'd still get hit.

A long time ago experiments and observations showed that when a champion "evades" what happens is for a brief window of time they evade everything heading their way. That's how Black Widow with her low evade chance can evade an entire combo in sequence. If you trigger her evade, she will evade your entire combo much of the time. The same thing is true of mesmerize: if you trigger its evade you have to back off or studder into a hit. You won't be able to "overcome" the evade by rapid-firing attacks. It is the rapid fire itself that causes all of those attacks to be "seen" as a single sequence of attacks to evade. Slow down, and the next swing won't be seen as part of the sequence, and you can clip them with the next attack after the evade.

As far as I'm aware, all triggered evades work like this. Spider-Man, Nightcrawler, Ultron, Black Widow, anything with a small chance to evade will evade multiple rapid fire swings in sequence when their evade is triggered. This allows them to evade multi-hit special attacks and closely spaced basic attacks with one evade.

So what interaction is going on when I fight sym spidey and nightcrawler where they evade once but during my aggressive “tap tap tap tap tap tap tap” for light attacks, the second one will connect after they evade the first. (I fight a nightcrawler in AQ map 7 with hulking and sym spidey with Galan). The way you described it makes me think it would only work if I slowed down my 5 combo but a lot of times it’ll connect if I rapid fire light attacks.

It is a very tight timing thing. If they evade backwards far enough, it can take long enough for your champion to move forward to connect with them again, and that puts you out of the evade window. Without seeing video, that's what I would assume you are sometimes seeing.

This behavior does not always look consistent to us as players, because extremely tiny timing differences can change the behavior. Clearly, the evade window is very short, or else champs that trigger evade would be able to evade too much. But it has to be long enough to account for things like multi-hit special attacks. No one (that I'm aware of) has ever characterized the exact timing behavior, but when this was discussed back in the day everyone was pretty much in agreement that this was the behavior description that was most consistent with everyone's observations. One triggered evade *can* cause a champ to evade a fast sequence of attacks, but what the precise timing of those attacks must be to fall within this behavior no one has determined exactly.

There might also be an alignment effect that makes this look even more inconsistent but that would get into technical weeds. Short version: when things appear to happen in MCOC must align with animation frames (like, when the screen updates) but when things actually happen internally don't always have to be aligned in that way. So events can sometimes appear to have inconsistent timing.

(The complex role of timing and game clocks is part of what has made addressing all input issues complicated and extremely time consuming).

Pikolu

I remember when it was evade once per swing which made drax a powerful evade counter since his 2 hit medium would bypass the evade of quake and other champions.

DNA3000

Pikolu said:

I remember when it was evade once per swing which made drax a powerful evade counter since his 2 hit medium would bypass the evade of quake and other champions.

Actually, it wasn't evade that worked differently, it was Drax and his attack timing that worked differently. Or to be more precise, it was the game timing that worked differently, and when a game engine upgrade altered that timing slightly, his evade-busting multi-swing attacks ceased working against evade.

This was another sign of how timing-depending many game behaviors actually are. Evade didn't change, Drax didn't change, but the game engine everything ran on changed, and suddenly this interaction changed, even though the way both were defined did not change.

Fit_Fun9329

Interesting stuff here!

It’s still save to do heavy attacks against mordo with AA when he is stunned, right? He will evade the first hit but the second will connect