Future Antman stuns on combo enders

Having a minimum 10% chance of being stunned while ending a combo against this guy is a really bad idea as it will inevitably be treated as a 100% chance by most players, especially in competitive content.

Many champions (especially non-meta relevant ones) require ending a combo as part of their rotation, or simply sacrifice too much damage (that they already don't have) by not ending a combo. Whereas the already insane champions, IE Herc, Hulkling, Doom, Tigra, KP, Nick, Apoc, AA, Kitty, Magneto, Ghost, QS, Valk, list goes on... can avoid the stun completely in their main rotation or have anti-stun mechanics. I wouldn't mind this as much if it was a one-off, but more and more champions solely exist now to be countered by S-tier champions, leaving everybody else behind.

Why does it matter though? Honestly, if this was the first champion to have this kind of mechanic, I wouldn't care at all. But it is becoming increasingly too common for Kabam to create champions that are to be countered by newer champions 6 months down the line rather than the older champions which are quickly becoming outdated with each passing day.

Tl;dr Future antman has a stun mechanic that imo only increases the disparity between OK champions and the S-tier champions which isn't good for the game.

Comments

CyborgNinja135

There are plenty of very good champions in the game that don't need to land combo ending hits to perform their rotations.

Science: Ant-Man, AV, CapIW, any of the Hulks, any of the Spider people, any of the F4, Mr Negative.

Skill: KP, OG BP, Black Cat, DDHK, Hawkeye, Blade, Crossbones, Hit-Monkey, Massacre, Mantis, Moleman.

Mutant: Colossus, Namor, Cap Brittain, Stryfe, Namor, Bishop, OR, Wags, Jubilee.

Tech: pretty much anyone

Cosmic: anyone asides from CGR

Mystic: Except for maybe OG Ghost Rider and Wiccan, I think everyone can deal with him

It's a new mechanic and people tend to say it's OP without having even fought the new champion yet. People will just learn how to adapt their playstyle when fighting Future Antman like they have been doing with every strong defender for years. It's not the end of the world.

Eb0ny-O-M4w

Every champion is made defensive for the sake of it. Either annoying specials to dodge or unavoidable mechanics/damage.

Shadowstrike

You forgot scorpion for science. I don't even use combos when I'm fighting with him, I just focus on mediums and heavy attacks and let the opponent take themselves out with their specials

Ghost_Fan

Apocalypse is stun immune while attacking and having 3+ charges

Shadowstrike

But that's the story every month when we're breaking down a new champ's abilities and that first month is always a pain because we don't have the rotations figured out but then what happens? We learn to live with it and suddenly it's no longer a big deal.

CyborgNinja135

True. There are just so many champions that don't have to land combo enders that idk why OP is making such a big fuss about it. If anything, the glancing has the potential to be the most annoying part about fighting Future Ant-man

AmaadAkira

You're just mentioning more S-tier champions that don't need to combo end and it is further proving my point. My point isn't that there are very limited counters, it is that the counters are more concentrated among the S-tier champions. Why pretend it isn't happening?

Every month we get champions that further increase the disparity between the top 20 champions in MCOC and everyone else, that recent buffs to champions like Hulk, Juggernaut, IMIW, Gorr, Antman, Thor (JF) etc. are outdated before they are even introduced. None of the above champions counter Future Antman, Cassie Lang, Zemo, Absorbing man, Attuma, Spot, etc. INTUITIVELY.

How on earth is this good for the game?

SpideyFunko

More than half the listed champs aren’t s tier

AmaadAkira

And this is incorrect, hilariously so. Not doing 5 hit combos make Jubilee MUCH harder to play. Hit monkey is an M-L-M champion. Hawkeye needs extended combos to keep up his bleed duration (while his damage is already bad), iHulk LITERALLY NEEDS TO end in mediums to keep up his gamma charges, Namor needs 2nd medium to ramp up quicker (his ramp up already takes too long), and you've completely excluded Gorr (who needs to end combos for his buffs and to inflict debuffs), Medusa (who needs M-M for armor shatter), Mysterio (who needs M-M to ramp up for poisons), Guardian (to be able to build up to SP2 without losing his charges), Stealthy (a spiderperson mind you) to get furies and apply his debuffs, and many, MANY more.

You notice anything in common with those champs? They were slowly bumped out of the meta by the S-tier champions and for this EXACT reason.

AmaadAkira

More than half he listed either require it/benefit from it enough to make them trash against this mechanic, and the rest, he's completely ignored, ie iHulk (yet apparently no hulk does), Stealthy (yet apparently no spidey does), Gorr (yet apparently no cosmic except CGR does), Mysterio (yet apparently no tech does), Sasquatch (yet apparently only OG Ghost rider and wiccan do). And there's much more. He's clearly never played half those champions he's mentioned before. All it does is make champions that are mediocre/pushed out of the present meta, worse.

Nobody is going to 4 hit combo Future Antman with mediocre champs that have bad damage as it is. You're just going to bring Herc, Nick fury, Kitty, Doom, Tigra and every other S-tier champion that nukes every defender that releases nowadays.

CyborgNinja135

I intentionally listed those champions because a lot of them wouldn't really be considered S-tier by a huge percentage of the playerbase. You want more counters?

Zemo: you can parry him so all you have to do is avoid inflicting debuffs other than stun. It's that simple.

Absorbing Man: at least 50% of the science class has a way to deal with regeneration. Learn how to heavy counter his specials to prevent him from refining his form.

Attuma: Stryfe, Namor, Bishop, Captain Brittain, Toad. Any mutant that punishes purify will be great.

Spot: Just don't hit him while untouchable.

Cassie Lang doesn't look like she'll need specific counters and I already gave you a huge list for Future Ant-Man.

None of these champions are particularly difficult defenders. They are just annoying. If you can't find a way to adapt to each scenario then that's on you for being inflexible as a player.

ege999men

10%? With armor ups it goes to 70%. And you can't get rid of the armor ups in any way. What you can do is 4 hit combos, won't stun.
There's a bigger issue here I think and it's speed. Without AAR or pierce you're dealing with 70% glance practically always and this adds to a toxic game design of absolutely requiring counter champions. There aren't that many pierce champs and AAR is almost never high enough to be reliable

AmaadAkira

Zemo: Almost every champion applies debuffs, ESPECIALLY the none S-tier champions, so back to square one with this one.

Absorbing man: Knock him down, which then goes on a 20-second CD. If he throws 2 SP1s or SP2s in that time frame (not difficult seen as he's a mystic champ with MD), you're gonna wish you brought a better counter.

Attuma: Most the above champions don't counter him as they do not have incinerate, so he'll go unstoppable and you'll be wishing you brought a better counter.

Spot: You have to hit him to trigger his untouchable to begin with and he will counterattack your miss - gonna wish you had a better counter

Cassie Lang: 9% chance to evade on every hit at sig 200 -- better counter. Oddly enough I don't mind this one, know why? Because it makes older champions useful again as in there's no Herc, Kitty, Doom, go brrrr

CyborgNinja135

You can play iHulk without a second medium, same for Sasquatch. You can play Hit-Monkey only using ML and intercepting. Guardian doesn't really need to land second mediums to reach the sp2 faster. Only Mysterio, Stealthy and Gorr are innacuracies on my part. Hawkeye's damage is already bad? It seems to me like you're the one who hasn't actually played with those champions.

All you're really showing is that you can't be flexible with your playstyle.

CosmicGuardian

Like with any new defensive mechanic, it requires adaptation on the player’s part. As people have stated, there are many champs that do not require the use of combo enders, to list them all would take far too much time. Even if you don’t have someone that explicitly counters Future Ant Man, there will still be other viable champs that will get you through the fight, it just requires you to adjust your play style.

AmaadAkira

I've got a R3 Hawkeye. He serves the same purpose as Wong, I'll use him if my 20 better champions are locked up in AQ, AW or Story mode.

Funnily enough, I've also got iHulk at R3. Try playing him or Sasquatch without the 2nd medium. You make a mediocre champion go to trash tier. Guardian doesn't just need 5 hit combos to build his specials quicker, he also needs them for his armor up buffs that provide him most his utility.

ege999men

Can't wait to see him on "consistent combos" node btw, "if your combo ends in less than 5 hits you get 100% glance" XD

AmaadAkira

I get that but when 90% of his best counters are the top 20 champions in the game right now (just like with every other defender released nowadays), it makes every other champion irrelevant. I wouldn't care if the 5th hit caused a shock or a power detonation or whatever else. Because then the older champions can actually be useful for it over some of the S-tier ones.

I'm not saying he's difficult to fight, every R4 I have will make pudding out of him. But all the recently buffed champions or the average champions are growing more and more useless by the day. How does no one see this lmao. This isn't about skill anymore, it's about using the same 10 champions over and over again, EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

CyborgNinja135

You can use shock to reduce Attuma's hydration stacks, an ability that Stryfe has.

Zemo: plenty of champions have damage that does not rely on debuffs like Stryfe, Cap Wilson, Guardian, Peni, Punisher 2099, Sersi, the Champion, Angela. The list goes on.

Absorbing Man: I said a lot of science champions have a way to deal with healing, even easier if you have despair. You know what else science champions are known for? Not having many, if any, buffs to counter mystic abilities that punish buffs.

Spot: Really easy. Bring someone who can't miss, trigger untouchable and back off until it ends. You'll only get a rupture on yourself which won't be a lot of damage.

CyborgNinja135

I also have a r3 iHulk and guess what? doing ML and intercepting with an aggressive AI will keep up your rage stacks. You can also double them with a heavy. You don't need to get to 25 stacks of rage to deal significant damage.

Hawkeye: maybe if you made the effort to use him a lot more you'd realize how versatile he is. Poison immunity with NF, critical ruptures and poison, easy to access slow, massive DOT that can last the entire fight and doesn't need 5 hit combos to keep up. Just intercept.

Since when does Guardian need to land combo enders to gain armor ups??? He gains them on heavy attacks and he already starts the fight with one, which is all you need in most match-ups.

CosmicGuardian

While I know there are many people who are not overly fond of relics, I feel like the Valkyrie relic may be of use in countering this mechanic. It provides a 12 second pierce effect regardless of star level, so that would allow you to avoid his glancing. As well, champs with purify or cleanse mechanics could also be of use in the case you want to go for combo enders or do one accidentally out of instinct.

AmaadAkira

Oh yeah, you're correct on Guardian, I confused it with power drain on 4th light. But if you are playing iHulk with simple Medium intercepts, even against aggressive AI the risk-payoff is NOT worth it. I play him everyday and this NEVER works as a useful playstyle.

Also, I maintain hawkeye is bad. You tell me one good thing he can do, and there are about 20 champions that do it better. This hype for hawkeye is hilarious considering you NEVER see people using him in AW, AQ, Story Mode (unless to show off his abilities), incursions, BGs etc.

P.S., Don't bring half those champs you previously mentioned against Zemo, especially angela.

AmaadAkira

Honestly, this has just become - Kabam make a champion that is countered by Herc, Kitty or Doom speed run.

Never thought I'd see the day where I'd miss defenders like thing & korg, who actually required skill to play but were also counterable by the average day to day champions.

CyborgNinja135

The champs I mentioned work for Zemo because I have tested them. They don't inflict debuffs on basic attacks. You can play Angela without every launching a special and still deal good damage.

Look if you don't wanna use Hawkeye, I'm not gonna force you. I bring my Hawkeye everywhere and I have fun using him. He's not bad, that's just inaccurate. IMO he's in A tier but you do you.

I listed plenty of champions that can deal with the supposedly "OP" defenders. If you want to use them good, if you don't want to use them, not my problem. Just stop whining about them only having a handful of S tier champions as counters when that is just not true.

AmaadAkira

Angela without specials has trash damage. Cap Wilson cannot perform his rotation. Guardians SP2 does barely any damage is shock is purified. You aren't giving counters, you're telling me to play champions suboptimally in non suitable match ups.

But thanks for the advice. I'll just use Kitty to counter all of them as per usual.

GroundedWisdom

Angela doesn't have trash Damage without Specials.
Honestly, this isn't the first Champ that's come along that has required us to use different play styles.
As for the Tier List, I don't bother with it. I use whatever Champs suit the job. I don't need mass approval.

AmaadAkira

Angela vs. Winter soldier when her furies run out by never using specials: 2.6k medium crit 1.6k light

Gladiator hulk with class disadvantage vs winter soldier: 2.5k medium crit.

(Both 5* R5)

Yes, she does.

GroundedWisdom

That one Fight in the game isn't a testament to everything else. It's a comparative gauge.

Fantomaxop

Your statement could be valid if there were a lot of old/non-meta champions that would get hurt from not being able
to do 5 hit combos. The thing is, there are not that many of them, even from point of entire champion roster.
2015 - the only 2 champions that might get hurt from inability to perform 5 hit combos is Star-Lord and Juggernaut. Not the end of the world, that just might screw a little with their ramp-ups.
2016 - Ghost Rider and Civil warrior definitely suffer, Ghost rider specifically since he gets no access to full scope of judgements. But i'm not even sure if you want to play with him into new Ant-man, he should be hero so ghosty should be irrelevant anyway?
2017 - no one gets hurt in particular
2018 - again no one relies on exactly 5 hit combos
2019 - Stealth Spidey is unable to spent cartridge debuffs without sp 2
2020 - very likely this ability was given in first place to counter these matchups - Terrax and CGR. Both of them are cosmic armor-breakers that can stack a lot of them and very fast if used with right rotations. Only CGR gets hurt by it to the point of being bad matchup. I guess they wanted to make new tech guy to not be cheesable by him.
2021 - We are entering the territory where champions can barely be called old, but i will still name a few.
Shang and Strife. That's it. And for them its not even a problem.
2022 - Found another 3 characters that might have complicated relationships with chance of being stunned of 5 hit combo. But 2022 is last year and these are champs that considered pretty solid by community. I wonder what's the trend...
Wong, Rintrah and Wiccan. Wiccan can't reliably place incinerate on opponnent. Rintrah might need to do light ender combo into block. Wong will need to play parry into 4 lights to switch his mandalas. That's it.
TL;DR: 4 champions that significantly lose from ability to get stunned from new Ant-man and 8 champs that might need to switch playstyle a little. Bruh

AmaadAkira

Point isn't that you can't 4 hit combos with literally any champ in the game. The point is by preventing people from doing 5 hit combos (thus losing out on potential damage), you're making weaker champs LESS APPEALING. I don't know how this is difficult to understand.

Let's say (hypothetically) there's a new champion that only allows 2 hit combos. You aren't gonna bring Doc Ock, EVEN IF HE'S VIABLE, because Scorpion/Herc/Nick/Kingpin etc. will do a lot more damage in a shorter amount of time. This mechanic adds 0 skill to the game compared to rockstacks, power detonation, evades etc. All it serves is to make stronger champions, more OP, and lower-damage champions less attractive.

But thanks for the essay, anyway, even if you missed the entire point.