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Longshot vs domino interaction

AmaadAkiraAmaadAkira Posts: 388 ★★★
It states in longshot's abilities this his ability accuracy can only be reduced via debuffs. So why does he take the crit failure damage from domino or am I missing something?
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    AmaadAkiraAmaadAkira Posts: 388 ★★★
    Maratox said:

    Longshot has abilities that don’t have 100% chance to activate. It’s got nothing to do with AAR

    Ah okay got it
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    Lovejoy72Lovejoy72 Posts: 1,858 ★★★★
    mgj0630 said:

    Someone like @DNA3000 could probably explain it better, but I'm guessing it has something to do with what AAR value Kabam checks first.

    It's true that Longshot has the 300% base AAR, but Domino's kit has 100% to for evade and dex to fail when unlucky.

    To put numbers to it, let's say Longshot's base AAR is 10. 300% of that is 30.

    But 100% of 30 is 30, so if Domino's numbers as a defender are checked after Longshot's as an attacker, it's still gonna fail.

    Someone smarter than me may understand and be able to explain it better, but that's how I've always interpreted it.

    Maybe! Beroman did a video testing it yesterday. Quite a few champs claiming to be immune to ability accuracy reduction still couldn’t dex while unlucky. I think only OML was able out of the ability accuracy champs (other than Attuma, of course). Similar with those supposedly unable to be struck while dashing back. Only NC was able to pull it off
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    MagrailothosMagrailothos Posts: 5,517 ★★★★★
    Lovejoy72 said:

    mgj0630 said:

    Someone like @DNA3000 could probably explain it better, but I'm guessing it has something to do with what AAR value Kabam checks first.

    It's true that Longshot has the 300% base AAR, but Domino's kit has 100% to for evade and dex to fail when unlucky.

    To put numbers to it, let's say Longshot's base AAR is 10. 300% of that is 30.

    But 100% of 30 is 30, so if Domino's numbers as a defender are checked after Longshot's as an attacker, it's still gonna fail.

    Someone smarter than me may understand and be able to explain it better, but that's how I've always interpreted it.

    Maybe! Beroman did a video testing it yesterday. Quite a few champs claiming to be immune to ability accuracy reduction still couldn’t dex while unlucky. I think only OML was able out of the ability accuracy champs (other than Attuma, of course). Similar with those supposedly unable to be struck while dashing back. Only NC was able to pull it off
    Domino doesn't stop Dexterity working by reducing Ability Accuracy. It's a completely separate function of the Unlucky Passive:


    If you think of it this way, it makes a lot more sense: effectively Domino's Unlucky Passive grants you a new 'ability', which is for your Dexterity to fail.

    (Not all 'abilities' are intrinsically helpful, as it happens...)

    Immunity to AAR won't affect your new 'ability'.
    As regards Longshot and Attuma, their own abilities probably interact like this:
    • Longshot's base 300% Ability accuracy means he now has a 300% chance for Dexterity to fail.
    • Attuma inverts the usual AAR from fighting Domino and being Unlucky (15%+35%) to give himself a 150% chance for his new 'Ability' to 'succeed'... at failing...
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    DeaconDeacon Posts: 4,145 ★★★★★
    It's just one of those things you have to just deal with. Longshot can completely shut down Falcon's lock on on say a node like Hazard Shift ... but he can't get away from Domino. The crit fail thing takes precedence over every other ability even when it's something like Longshot's.

    Quite ridiculous and confusing but just sigh and keep playing through it.
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    AverageDesiAverageDesi Posts: 5,260 ★★★★★

    It's just one of those things you have to just deal with. Longshot can completely shut down Falcon's lock on on say a node like Hazard Shift ... but he can't get away from Domino. The crit fail thing takes precedence over every other ability even when it's something like Longshot's.

    Quite ridiculous and confusing but just sigh and keep playing through it.

    Crit fail is because his abilities fail. It's consistent
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    Lovejoy72Lovejoy72 Posts: 1,858 ★★★★

    Hmmm. Too late to edit the above, but if Attuma can still Dex, then that's not the full story.

    Unless he's inverting a +100% on his new ability to -100%...

    Yeah, and we still have to deal with the fact the OML can dex it, based entirely on his immunity to ability accuracy modification.
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    BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 2,343 ★★★★★
    Too bad Vulture is tech, I'd like to see if he would still get hit. He should be in the Nightcrawler situation and still able to dodge it. Quicksilver has his other dash Evade interaction, when (QS) vs. while (NC), and the timing of his Dodge invulnerability window (if it was during the entirety of his dodge back, there would be no value in increasing the window at max momentum, except to include once it was done and he was no longer dodging) muddying the waters.
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    BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 2,343 ★★★★★
    edited February 2023
    DNA3000 said:

    Lovejoy72 said:

    mgj0630 said:

    Someone like @DNA3000 could probably explain it better, but I'm guessing it has something to do with what AAR value Kabam checks first.

    It's true that Longshot has the 300% base AAR, but Domino's kit has 100% to for evade and dex to fail when unlucky.

    To put numbers to it, let's say Longshot's base AAR is 10. 300% of that is 30.

    But 100% of 30 is 30, so if Domino's numbers as a defender are checked after Longshot's as an attacker, it's still gonna fail.

    Someone smarter than me may understand and be able to explain it better, but that's how I've always interpreted it.

    Maybe! Beroman did a video testing it yesterday. Quite a few champs claiming to be immune to ability accuracy reduction still couldn’t dex while unlucky. I think only OML was able out of the ability accuracy champs (other than Attuma, of course). Similar with those supposedly unable to be struck while dashing back. Only NC was able to pull it off
    So I took a look at the video. Here's what I see:

    Longshot can't dex because Domino reduces Evade AA by 100%. This reduces Longshot's Evade-specific ability accuracy to zero, and even his 300% base ability accuracy still multiplies zero into zero.

    Attuma can dex, because Attuma reverses Domino's -100% Evade ability accuracy to +100% Evade ability accuracy.

    OML can dex, because OML is immune to ability accuracy modification, period.

    AA is supposedly immune to "AAR from opponent's abilities", while Mordo, and Mephisto are all supposedly immune to "passive ability accuracy" modification. All three suggest to me their AAR immunity was designed either at a time before general AAR immunity did not exist in the game or were patterned after champs designed before that technology was added to the game engine. The wording suggests that they date from a time where such immunity had to be spelled out in the champion implementation, ability by ability. In other words, if you wanted to be immune to all AAR from passive abilities, there was no way to tell the game engine that. You instead, as the champion designer, had to find all the passive abilities with AAR and then make the champion immune to all of those AAR effects individually. This meant an ability could be missed, and also as new champs were added to the game these champs would have to be constantly revisited and updated. These probably have holes in their AAR protection that makes them not immune to Unlucky.

    I'm not sure why NC can avoid being hit when dashing back while Unlucky while Quicksilver and Invisible Woman cannot. I'm not sure how "cannot be hit while dashing back" mechanics works or how ability accuracy interacts with it. I will try to find out.
    How is an unlucky passive doing anything to Longshot's ability accuracy? If it is, that's a bug that should be fixed. Kabam says his base ability accuracy is 300% and not "3 times his 100% base accuracy". It wouldn't make sense for Domino to take 100 from 100.
    The earlier explanation for why Attuma can evade is interesting. If Attuma reverses the chances, would he have a 135% evade chance? He can evade normally (if it was 100%, he would reverse it to -100% and never evade), so can we use as a working assumption that the chance from dexterity to not get hit is an absolute since other aar works on the precision, but not the invulnerability while dodging and Domino makes it have an ability accuracy number that she can affect?
    Is swiping back to evade always "dodging back", "dashing back", and the difference is what the opponent's doing or will it remain a black box where who knows what it going on inside? Kabam uses both dodging and dashing in descriptions regarding not getting hit. Quicksilver has a dashing Evade ability and a dodging ability that has an invulnerability window.
    It wouldn't surprise me if an old champ like OML had different coding for "No ability accuracy modifications" than a newer champ would. Similar to how old synergies increased base attack and were effective with the LoL attack-based mechanics while newer ones were just another attack modifier and didn't work with it.
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    psp742psp742 Posts: 2,390 ★★★★
    I appreciate DNA3000 explanation of this.. Longshot is one of my favorite champions.. when I play correctly I can take down opponents easily if rng crits occur in sp1 or sp2.
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    AmaadAkiraAmaadAkira Posts: 388 ★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Lovejoy72 said:

    mgj0630 said:

    Someone like @DNA3000 could probably explain it better, but I'm guessing it has something to do with what AAR value Kabam checks first.

    It's true that Longshot has the 300% base AAR, but Domino's kit has 100% to for evade and dex to fail when unlucky.

    To put numbers to it, let's say Longshot's base AAR is 10. 300% of that is 30.

    But 100% of 30 is 30, so if Domino's numbers as a defender are checked after Longshot's as an attacker, it's still gonna fail.

    Someone smarter than me may understand and be able to explain it better, but that's how I've always interpreted it.

    Maybe! Beroman did a video testing it yesterday. Quite a few champs claiming to be immune to ability accuracy reduction still couldn’t dex while unlucky. I think only OML was able out of the ability accuracy champs (other than Attuma, of course). Similar with those supposedly unable to be struck while dashing back. Only NC was able to pull it off
    So I took a look at the video. Here's what I see:

    Longshot can't dex because Domino reduces Evade AA by 100%. This reduces Longshot's Evade-specific ability accuracy to zero, and even his 300% base ability accuracy still multiplies zero into zero.

    Attuma can dex, because Attuma reverses Domino's -100% Evade ability accuracy to +100% Evade ability accuracy.

    OML can dex, because OML is immune to ability accuracy modification, period.

    AA is supposedly immune to "AAR from opponent's abilities", while Mordo, and Mephisto are all supposedly immune to "passive ability accuracy" modification. All three suggest to me their AAR immunity was designed either at a time before general AAR immunity did not exist in the game or were patterned after champs designed before that technology was added to the game engine. The wording suggests that they date from a time where such immunity had to be spelled out in the champion implementation, ability by ability. In other words, if you wanted to be immune to all AAR from passive abilities, there was no way to tell the game engine that. You instead, as the champion designer, had to find all the passive abilities with AAR and then make the champion immune to all of those AAR effects individually. This meant an ability could be missed, and also as new champs were added to the game these champs would have to be constantly revisited and updated. These probably have holes in their AAR protection that makes them not immune to Unlucky.

    I'm not sure why NC can avoid being hit when dashing back while Unlucky while Quicksilver and Invisible Woman cannot. I'm not sure how "cannot be hit while dashing back" mechanics works or how ability accuracy interacts with it. I will try to find out.
    Interesting. But Longshot also has an effect that states his ability accuracy can ONLY be reduced via debuffs. Domino's unlucky passive is a passive and not a debuff right? So what's up with that?
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    World EaterWorld Eater Posts: 3,624 ★★★★★
    edited February 2023
    In other words….. it’s a mess

    its domino

    it’s not consistent

    Maybe we’re dealing with dated code for various champs
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    Fit_Fun9329Fit_Fun9329 Posts: 1,869 ★★★★★
    How shall the average summoner understand such things? Man, look at those explanations which are like Essays
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    How is an unlucky passive doing anything to Longshot's ability accuracy? If it is, that's a bug that should be fixed. Kabam says his base ability accuracy is 300% and not "3 times his 100% base accuracy". It wouldn't make sense for Domino to take 100 from 100.

    Interesting. But Longshot also has an effect that states his ability accuracy can ONLY be reduced via debuffs. Domino's unlucky passive is a passive and not a debuff right? So what's up with that?

    If my understanding is correct, and I'm attempting to interpret what I see within the context of my current understanding of how ability accuracy works, Unlucky is not doing *anything* to Longshot's ability accuracy.

    Longshot - like all champions - has an actual stat called Ability Accuracy. This is not his chance to evade or anything else. It is his base ability accuracy. This is a thing separate from any ability. His abilities, just like all champion abilities, also have ability accuracies. They specify the chance for that ability to do whatever they do. Many things that don't *seem* to have ability accuracy because "they just happen" actually have 100% ability accuracy that is just unspecified.

    When Unlucky says "100% chance for Evade or Dexterity Mastery to fail" I am interpreting that phrase as meaning that the game engine implementation for Unlucky is reducing Evade ability accuracy by 100 percentage points and the Dexterity mastery ability accuracy also by 100 percentage points. Unlucky is NOT touching Longshot's ability accuracy at all. That is not just words that mean "whatever Longshot wants to do." Longshot Ability Accuracy is a stat, like attack, like health, like physical resistance. It has a value. That value is 3.0 (aka 300%). Unlucky does not touch this stat at all. Unlucky finds Longshot's Evade abilities and reduces all of their ability accuracies by 100 percentage points and Longshot's Dexterity mastery and reduces that mastery's ability accuracy by 100 percentage points. Without touching Longshot's ability accuracy itself.

    Longshot's ability accuracy is still 300%. But that doesn't mean his abilities fire 300% of the time. Rather, his abilities fire 300% more often than their actual intrinsic ability accuracy specifies. If he had an ability that had an intrinsic 17% chance to fire, it will actually fire 51% of the time. If he has the Dexterity mastery and that mastery has a 100% chance to do something, it will actually have a 300% chance to do that something. But also, if the Dexterity mastery's chance to fire is reduced from 100% to zero, his 300% base ability accuracy will cause Dex to fire three times more often than zero. Meaning: zero.

    Incidentally, separate from all other testing and anecdotal evidence to support this theory of how ability accuracy works, the game used to tell us this. This explanation for how ability accuracy works actually used to be one of the loading screen tips within the game. It was changed a couple years ago to a more simplified explanation that removes this bit of technical detail. But this is also how ability accuracy has always been described as working whenever more complex interactions have been discussed.
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    DNA3000 said:

    How is an unlucky passive doing anything to Longshot's ability accuracy? If it is, that's a bug that should be fixed. Kabam says his base ability accuracy is 300% and not "3 times his 100% base accuracy". It wouldn't make sense for Domino to take 100 from 100.

    Interesting. But Longshot also has an effect that states his ability accuracy can ONLY be reduced via debuffs. Domino's unlucky passive is a passive and not a debuff right? So what's up with that?

    If my understanding is correct, and I'm attempting to interpret what I see within the context of my current understanding of how ability accuracy works, Unlucky is not doing *anything* to Longshot's ability accuracy.

    Longshot - like all champions - has an actual stat called Ability Accuracy. This is not his chance to evade or anything else. It is his base ability accuracy. This is a thing separate from any ability. His abilities, just like all champion abilities, also have ability accuracies. They specify the chance for that ability to do whatever they do. Many things that don't *seem* to have ability accuracy because "they just happen" actually have 100% ability accuracy that is just unspecified.

    When Unlucky says "100% chance for Evade or Dexterity Mastery to fail" I am interpreting that phrase as meaning that the game engine implementation for Unlucky is reducing Evade ability accuracy by 100 percentage points and the Dexterity mastery ability accuracy also by 100 percentage points. Unlucky is NOT touching Longshot's ability accuracy at all. That is not just words that mean "whatever Longshot wants to do." Longshot Ability Accuracy is a stat, like attack, like health, like physical resistance. It has a value. That value is 3.0 (aka 300%). Unlucky does not touch this stat at all. Unlucky finds Longshot's Evade abilities and reduces all of their ability accuracies by 100 percentage points and Longshot's Dexterity mastery and reduces that mastery's ability accuracy by 100 percentage points. Without touching Longshot's ability accuracy itself.

    Longshot's ability accuracy is still 300%. But that doesn't mean his abilities fire 300% of the time. Rather, his abilities fire 300% more often than their actual intrinsic ability accuracy specifies. If he had an ability that had an intrinsic 17% chance to fire, it will actually fire 51% of the time. If he has the Dexterity mastery and that mastery has a 100% chance to do something, it will actually have a 300% chance to do that something. But also, if the Dexterity mastery's chance to fire is reduced from 100% to zero, his 300% base ability accuracy will cause Dex to fire three times more often than zero. Meaning: zero.

    Incidentally, separate from all other testing and anecdotal evidence to support this theory of how ability accuracy works, the game used to tell us this. This explanation for how ability accuracy works actually used to be one of the loading screen tips within the game. It was changed a couple years ago to a more simplified explanation that removes this bit of technical detail. But this is also how ability accuracy has always been described as working whenever more complex interactions have been discussed.

    Seems like playing fast and loose with the meanings of words and their consistent application to have Domino trample over immunities by something as dumb as
    Domino: "I'm not passively reducing your ability accuracy, I'm passively reducing the ability accuracy of the things you're trying to do."
    Longshot: "But I'M the one doing them and I've got immunity!"
    Domino: "Guess not."
    It's actually not being loose with meanings of words but being extra precise with the use of words. As any rules lawyer in D&D would know, the exact verbiage of how something is said, affects how the thing words.

    Domino's exact wording is 100% chance for Evade or the Dexterity mastery to fail. It doesn't say, reduce ability accuracy of all evades or the Dexterity mastery by 100%.

    While it might conventionally seem like both of these imply the exact same thing, they really are 2 different entities in entirety.
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    DNA3000 said:

    How is an unlucky passive doing anything to Longshot's ability accuracy? If it is, that's a bug that should be fixed. Kabam says his base ability accuracy is 300% and not "3 times his 100% base accuracy". It wouldn't make sense for Domino to take 100 from 100.

    Interesting. But Longshot also has an effect that states his ability accuracy can ONLY be reduced via debuffs. Domino's unlucky passive is a passive and not a debuff right? So what's up with that?

    If my understanding is correct, and I'm attempting to interpret what I see within the context of my current understanding of how ability accuracy works, Unlucky is not doing *anything* to Longshot's ability accuracy.

    Longshot - like all champions - has an actual stat called Ability Accuracy. This is not his chance to evade or anything else. It is his base ability accuracy. This is a thing separate from any ability. His abilities, just like all champion abilities, also have ability accuracies. They specify the chance for that ability to do whatever they do. Many things that don't *seem* to have ability accuracy because "they just happen" actually have 100% ability accuracy that is just unspecified.

    When Unlucky says "100% chance for Evade or Dexterity Mastery to fail" I am interpreting that phrase as meaning that the game engine implementation for Unlucky is reducing Evade ability accuracy by 100 percentage points and the Dexterity mastery ability accuracy also by 100 percentage points. Unlucky is NOT touching Longshot's ability accuracy at all. That is not just words that mean "whatever Longshot wants to do." Longshot Ability Accuracy is a stat, like attack, like health, like physical resistance. It has a value. That value is 3.0 (aka 300%). Unlucky does not touch this stat at all. Unlucky finds Longshot's Evade abilities and reduces all of their ability accuracies by 100 percentage points and Longshot's Dexterity mastery and reduces that mastery's ability accuracy by 100 percentage points. Without touching Longshot's ability accuracy itself.

    Longshot's ability accuracy is still 300%. But that doesn't mean his abilities fire 300% of the time. Rather, his abilities fire 300% more often than their actual intrinsic ability accuracy specifies. If he had an ability that had an intrinsic 17% chance to fire, it will actually fire 51% of the time. If he has the Dexterity mastery and that mastery has a 100% chance to do something, it will actually have a 300% chance to do that something. But also, if the Dexterity mastery's chance to fire is reduced from 100% to zero, his 300% base ability accuracy will cause Dex to fire three times more often than zero. Meaning: zero.

    Incidentally, separate from all other testing and anecdotal evidence to support this theory of how ability accuracy works, the game used to tell us this. This explanation for how ability accuracy works actually used to be one of the loading screen tips within the game. It was changed a couple years ago to a more simplified explanation that removes this bit of technical detail. But this is also how ability accuracy has always been described as working whenever more complex interactions have been discussed.
    Seems like playing fast and loose with the meanings of words and their consistent application to have Domino trample over immunities by something as dumb as
    Domino: "I'm not passively reducing your ability accuracy, I'm passively reducing the ability accuracy of the things you're trying to do."
    Longshot: "But I'M the one doing them and I've got immunity!"
    Domino: "Guess not."
    I don't think that's a fair criticism, because none of this "tramples on the meanings of words." The problem seems to be that you are overgeneralizing without foundation. There is no rule that says the champion's ability accuracy defines the chance for them to do everything. How is it that X-23 has a 15% chance to gain regeneration buffs but an 80% chance to trigger bleeds on crits? How can those two chances be different? It is X-23 trying to do both things, shouldn't the chance be the same for X-23 to do both? That's what you're saying when you say that Longshot's ability accuracy should be the chance for him to do everything. There are no other ability accuracies according to your portrayal of them, because when Longshot's description says *his* ability accuracy is immune to AAR except from debuffs, that means all ability accuracy for all the things he does.

    Except that's not the case. Different abilities have different separate ability accuracies, separate from the champion's ability accuracy itself. And there is no reason to assume that if one of those is immune to something, all of them are.

    This seems to come up again and again when it comes to effects like immunities. Some players refuse to accept that these things work the way they are described. They expect them to work the way they conceptualize them to work, irrespective of description. If Longshot has "immunity" then his abilities should also have that immunity, because those abilities are just a part of him. But that's not how it works, because that's not how the game is designed to work. In the same way that some people simply refuse to accept that passive effects are not buffs or debuffs because that's how they conceptualize them. But the game works differently, as all games do. The horsey in Chess can jump over the castle tower, even though horses can't really jump over towers.

    If there is one thing the developers might have (and probably should have) done, it was to name these things different things. "Ability accuracy" is itself the kind of pseudo-meta descriptive naming convention game developers invent when they want to get creative with mechanical systems, when they should be aiming for clarity. But that ship has sailed off over the horizon, never to return. It is odd, but it is not semantically incorrect.
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    BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 2,343 ★★★★★
    Pikolu said:

    DNA3000 said:

    How is an unlucky passive doing anything to Longshot's ability accuracy? If it is, that's a bug that should be fixed. Kabam says his base ability accuracy is 300% and not "3 times his 100% base accuracy". It wouldn't make sense for Domino to take 100 from 100.

    Interesting. But Longshot also has an effect that states his ability accuracy can ONLY be reduced via debuffs. Domino's unlucky passive is a passive and not a debuff right? So what's up with that?

    If my understanding is correct, and I'm attempting to interpret what I see within the context of my current understanding of how ability accuracy works, Unlucky is not doing *anything* to Longshot's ability accuracy.

    Longshot - like all champions - has an actual stat called Ability Accuracy. This is not his chance to evade or anything else. It is his base ability accuracy. This is a thing separate from any ability. His abilities, just like all champion abilities, also have ability accuracies. They specify the chance for that ability to do whatever they do. Many things that don't *seem* to have ability accuracy because "they just happen" actually have 100% ability accuracy that is just unspecified.

    When Unlucky says "100% chance for Evade or Dexterity Mastery to fail" I am interpreting that phrase as meaning that the game engine implementation for Unlucky is reducing Evade ability accuracy by 100 percentage points and the Dexterity mastery ability accuracy also by 100 percentage points. Unlucky is NOT touching Longshot's ability accuracy at all. That is not just words that mean "whatever Longshot wants to do." Longshot Ability Accuracy is a stat, like attack, like health, like physical resistance. It has a value. That value is 3.0 (aka 300%). Unlucky does not touch this stat at all. Unlucky finds Longshot's Evade abilities and reduces all of their ability accuracies by 100 percentage points and Longshot's Dexterity mastery and reduces that mastery's ability accuracy by 100 percentage points. Without touching Longshot's ability accuracy itself.

    Longshot's ability accuracy is still 300%. But that doesn't mean his abilities fire 300% of the time. Rather, his abilities fire 300% more often than their actual intrinsic ability accuracy specifies. If he had an ability that had an intrinsic 17% chance to fire, it will actually fire 51% of the time. If he has the Dexterity mastery and that mastery has a 100% chance to do something, it will actually have a 300% chance to do that something. But also, if the Dexterity mastery's chance to fire is reduced from 100% to zero, his 300% base ability accuracy will cause Dex to fire three times more often than zero. Meaning: zero.

    Incidentally, separate from all other testing and anecdotal evidence to support this theory of how ability accuracy works, the game used to tell us this. This explanation for how ability accuracy works actually used to be one of the loading screen tips within the game. It was changed a couple years ago to a more simplified explanation that removes this bit of technical detail. But this is also how ability accuracy has always been described as working whenever more complex interactions have been discussed.

    Seems like playing fast and loose with the meanings of words and their consistent application to have Domino trample over immunities by something as dumb as
    Domino: "I'm not passively reducing your ability accuracy, I'm passively reducing the ability accuracy of the things you're trying to do."
    Longshot: "But I'M the one doing them and I've got immunity!"
    Domino: "Guess not."
    It's actually not being loose with meanings of words but being extra precise with the use of words. As any rules lawyer in D&D would know, the exact verbiage of how something is said, affects how the thing words.

    Domino's exact wording is 100% chance for Evade or the Dexterity mastery to fail. It doesn't say, reduce ability accuracy of all evades or the Dexterity mastery by 100%.

    While it might conventionally seem like both of these imply the exact same thing, they really are 2 different entities in entirety.
    What's the difference between immune to bleed, immune to poison, immune to buffs, and immune to passive ability accuracy reduction? The others are inviolable throughout the game and one means squat, apparently.
    Invisible Woman's abilities say, "While dodging backward, Invisible Woman is not struck by attacks" with no ambiguity, no percentage chance, and no mention of Dexterity mastery or Evade ability to muddy the issue but she still gets hit while Unlucky.
    There's no extra small asterisk next to the various ability accuracy modification immunities and a footnote that says *(Except for Domino.)
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    Pikolu said:

    DNA3000 said:

    How is an unlucky passive doing anything to Longshot's ability accuracy? If it is, that's a bug that should be fixed. Kabam says his base ability accuracy is 300% and not "3 times his 100% base accuracy". It wouldn't make sense for Domino to take 100 from 100.

    Interesting. But Longshot also has an effect that states his ability accuracy can ONLY be reduced via debuffs. Domino's unlucky passive is a passive and not a debuff right? So what's up with that?

    If my understanding is correct, and I'm attempting to interpret what I see within the context of my current understanding of how ability accuracy works, Unlucky is not doing *anything* to Longshot's ability accuracy.

    Longshot - like all champions - has an actual stat called Ability Accuracy. This is not his chance to evade or anything else. It is his base ability accuracy. This is a thing separate from any ability. His abilities, just like all champion abilities, also have ability accuracies. They specify the chance for that ability to do whatever they do. Many things that don't *seem* to have ability accuracy because "they just happen" actually have 100% ability accuracy that is just unspecified.

    When Unlucky says "100% chance for Evade or Dexterity Mastery to fail" I am interpreting that phrase as meaning that the game engine implementation for Unlucky is reducing Evade ability accuracy by 100 percentage points and the Dexterity mastery ability accuracy also by 100 percentage points. Unlucky is NOT touching Longshot's ability accuracy at all. That is not just words that mean "whatever Longshot wants to do." Longshot Ability Accuracy is a stat, like attack, like health, like physical resistance. It has a value. That value is 3.0 (aka 300%). Unlucky does not touch this stat at all. Unlucky finds Longshot's Evade abilities and reduces all of their ability accuracies by 100 percentage points and Longshot's Dexterity mastery and reduces that mastery's ability accuracy by 100 percentage points. Without touching Longshot's ability accuracy itself.

    Longshot's ability accuracy is still 300%. But that doesn't mean his abilities fire 300% of the time. Rather, his abilities fire 300% more often than their actual intrinsic ability accuracy specifies. If he had an ability that had an intrinsic 17% chance to fire, it will actually fire 51% of the time. If he has the Dexterity mastery and that mastery has a 100% chance to do something, it will actually have a 300% chance to do that something. But also, if the Dexterity mastery's chance to fire is reduced from 100% to zero, his 300% base ability accuracy will cause Dex to fire three times more often than zero. Meaning: zero.

    Incidentally, separate from all other testing and anecdotal evidence to support this theory of how ability accuracy works, the game used to tell us this. This explanation for how ability accuracy works actually used to be one of the loading screen tips within the game. It was changed a couple years ago to a more simplified explanation that removes this bit of technical detail. But this is also how ability accuracy has always been described as working whenever more complex interactions have been discussed.

    Seems like playing fast and loose with the meanings of words and their consistent application to have Domino trample over immunities by something as dumb as
    Domino: "I'm not passively reducing your ability accuracy, I'm passively reducing the ability accuracy of the things you're trying to do."
    Longshot: "But I'M the one doing them and I've got immunity!"
    Domino: "Guess not."
    It's actually not being loose with meanings of words but being extra precise with the use of words. As any rules lawyer in D&D would know, the exact verbiage of how something is said, affects how the thing words.

    Domino's exact wording is 100% chance for Evade or the Dexterity mastery to fail. It doesn't say, reduce ability accuracy of all evades or the Dexterity mastery by 100%.

    While it might conventionally seem like both of these imply the exact same thing, they really are 2 different entities in entirety.
    What's the difference between immune to bleed, immune to poison, immune to buffs, and immune to passive ability accuracy reduction? The others are inviolable throughout the game and one means squat, apparently.
    Invisible Woman's abilities say, "While dodging backward, Invisible Woman is not struck by attacks" with no ambiguity, no percentage chance, and no mention of Dexterity mastery or Evade ability to muddy the issue but she still gets hit while Unlucky.
    There's no extra small asterisk next to the various ability accuracy modification immunities and a footnote that says *(Except for Domino.)
    Show me where Longshot says he is immune to ability accuracy reduction effects.

    Hint: nowhere does his description say that.

    Longshot's description states:

    Due to Longshot's innate luck his Ability Accuracy can only be reduced through the effects of Debuffs.

    His Ability Accuracy can only be reduced through the effects of Debuffs.

    Domino does not reduce Longshot's Ability Accuracy. Longshot's ability accuracy remains 300% when Domino inflicts Unlucky upon Longshot.

    If Longshot's description stated that he was immune to passive ability accuracy effects, then he should be immune to Unlucky which is a passive ability accuracy reduction effect. It does not state that. It states that his ability accuracy can only be reduced by debuffs.

    His ability accuracy is not a concept or an idea or a description of his capabilities. His ability accuracy is a stat. Unlucky does not touch that stat, so it does not violate Longshot's protection against his ability accuracy being reduced by something other than a Debuff.

    It is you that is playing fast and loose with the wording. You are taking his actual description, which states that his ability accuracy cannot be reduced by anything except debuffs and you are rewriting it to say he is immune to passive ability accuracy reduction effects. But there are many different kinds of passive ability accuracy effects. He is only protected against one kind of them: the ones that target specifically his own ability accuracy stat.

    Longshot's ability accuracy should not be reduced by Unlucky. It is not. Therefore, this is working as designed and as described. You are the one claiming that if Longshot's ability accuracy can only be modified by Debuffs, that means he must be immune to all passive ability accuracy reduction effects in the game. What gives you the right to make the leap that immunity to one kind of effect ought to confer immunity to all other similar effects? What kind of silly game would honor such an expectation. That wasn't implemented in Roblox.

    In every game I have ever played that implemented more complex mechanics than Tetris, the wording of the description of effects was critical, because if the only thing you have is a fuzzy myopic understanding of how things worked, you wouldn't be able to handle the nuances of more complex interactions. And Kabam doesn't always get this right: I have pointed out more descriptive errors than possible any two other players combined. But in this case, they got the description correct. There are champion ability accuracy stats, and there are actual ability ability accuracy stats. These are two different things, and they have their own sets of rules. This is something people simply have to learn. Or they can choose to be confused, because so long as this is true, the wording of effects will have to be interpreted with this understanding. Players who refuse to do so can claim Kabam is "using words wrong" but it is actually they who is using the wrong conceptualization of the game. The wording is accurate, and thus cannot be corrected. The game behaves as this description states it should.

    As to Invisible Woman, while there's some question as to how the dash back mechanics work, the objection that there's "no percentage chance" listed is simply a question of convention. Everything has a percentage chance to occur (well, almost: certain things like combat power gain have no such explicit chance to occur mechanically). If it always happens, this chance is probably 100%. If AAR doesn't reduce this chance, it is probably unaffected by AAR effects. Once upon a time Ultron's heal had no chance listed (before Ultron's buff) and yet it was affected by, and could be stopped by, ability accuracy reduction. It was stated back then that the heal had a base 100% chance to heal, but the game did not explicitly take the time to state that everything with a 100% chance to happen actually had a 100% chance to happen.
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    DeaconDeacon Posts: 4,145 ★★★★★

    How shall the average summoner understand such things? Man, look at those explanations which are like Essays

    and that has always been an issue for me. instead of Kabam simply explaining EXACTLY how this stuff is suppose to work instead we have to theorize ourselves. so that's why i say just press through and keep it moving lol
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    BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 2,343 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Show me where Longshot says he is immune to ability accuracy reduction effects.

    I never said he was or should be.
    DNA3000 said:


    You are the one claiming that if Longshot's ability accuracy can only be modified by Debuffs, that means he must be immune to all passive ability accuracy reduction effects in the game.

    Calm down, bud. Again, I never said any such thing. I never said he should be immune to Unlucky, I do think he should unaffected by the ability accuracy effects of the Unlucky passive. It has other effects that it makes perfect sense for him to be susceptible to. There's nothing in his kit that implies immunity to Unlucky.

    So what is the explanation for Old Man Logan to still dex while Unlucky? How is it that OML's "cannot be increased or decreased" is unaffected by the Unlucky passive while Longshot's "can only be reduced through the effects of debuffs" is fair game?
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    Pikolu said:

    DNA3000 said:

    How is an unlucky passive doing anything to Longshot's ability accuracy? If it is, that's a bug that should be fixed. Kabam says his base ability accuracy is 300% and not "3 times his 100% base accuracy". It wouldn't make sense for Domino to take 100 from 100.

    Interesting. But Longshot also has an effect that states his ability accuracy can ONLY be reduced via debuffs. Domino's unlucky passive is a passive and not a debuff right? So what's up with that?

    If my understanding is correct, and I'm attempting to interpret what I see within the context of my current understanding of how ability accuracy works, Unlucky is not doing *anything* to Longshot's ability accuracy.

    Longshot - like all champions - has an actual stat called Ability Accuracy. This is not his chance to evade or anything else. It is his base ability accuracy. This is a thing separate from any ability. His abilities, just like all champion abilities, also have ability accuracies. They specify the chance for that ability to do whatever they do. Many things that don't *seem* to have ability accuracy because "they just happen" actually have 100% ability accuracy that is just unspecified.

    When Unlucky says "100% chance for Evade or Dexterity Mastery to fail" I am interpreting that phrase as meaning that the game engine implementation for Unlucky is reducing Evade ability accuracy by 100 percentage points and the Dexterity mastery ability accuracy also by 100 percentage points. Unlucky is NOT touching Longshot's ability accuracy at all. That is not just words that mean "whatever Longshot wants to do." Longshot Ability Accuracy is a stat, like attack, like health, like physical resistance. It has a value. That value is 3.0 (aka 300%). Unlucky does not touch this stat at all. Unlucky finds Longshot's Evade abilities and reduces all of their ability accuracies by 100 percentage points and Longshot's Dexterity mastery and reduces that mastery's ability accuracy by 100 percentage points. Without touching Longshot's ability accuracy itself.

    Longshot's ability accuracy is still 300%. But that doesn't mean his abilities fire 300% of the time. Rather, his abilities fire 300% more often than their actual intrinsic ability accuracy specifies. If he had an ability that had an intrinsic 17% chance to fire, it will actually fire 51% of the time. If he has the Dexterity mastery and that mastery has a 100% chance to do something, it will actually have a 300% chance to do that something. But also, if the Dexterity mastery's chance to fire is reduced from 100% to zero, his 300% base ability accuracy will cause Dex to fire three times more often than zero. Meaning: zero.

    Incidentally, separate from all other testing and anecdotal evidence to support this theory of how ability accuracy works, the game used to tell us this. This explanation for how ability accuracy works actually used to be one of the loading screen tips within the game. It was changed a couple years ago to a more simplified explanation that removes this bit of technical detail. But this is also how ability accuracy has always been described as working whenever more complex interactions have been discussed.

    Seems like playing fast and loose with the meanings of words and their consistent application to have Domino trample over immunities by something as dumb as
    Domino: "I'm not passively reducing your ability accuracy, I'm passively reducing the ability accuracy of the things you're trying to do."
    Longshot: "But I'M the one doing them and I've got immunity!"
    Domino: "Guess not."
    It's actually not being loose with meanings of words but being extra precise with the use of words. As any rules lawyer in D&D would know, the exact verbiage of how something is said, affects how the thing words.

    Domino's exact wording is 100% chance for Evade or the Dexterity mastery to fail. It doesn't say, reduce ability accuracy of all evades or the Dexterity mastery by 100%.

    While it might conventionally seem like both of these imply the exact same thing, they really are 2 different entities in entirety.
    What's the difference between immune to bleed, immune to poison, immune to buffs, and immune to passive ability accuracy reduction? The others are inviolable throughout the game and one means squat, apparently.
    Invisible Woman's abilities say, "While dodging backward, Invisible Woman is not struck by attacks" with no ambiguity, no percentage chance, and no mention of Dexterity mastery or Evade ability to muddy the issue but she still gets hit while Unlucky.
    There's no extra small asterisk next to the various ability accuracy modification immunities and a footnote that says *(Except for Domino.)
    Have you taken a moment to consider it doesn't say Longshots Ability accuracy can't be lowered by debuff passives? It is very likely that Domino's unlucky is counted as a passive debuff which satisfies the condition for Longshots ability accuracy to be lowered.
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    Saru2244Saru2244 Posts: 181
    I understand the confusion surrounding the discussion and I didn't quite understand what was happening at the beginning either. But after reading the various posts from @DNA3000 and @Pikolu, I understood that the crucial point is where the different abilities work. As I understand it, Longshot's ability changes the factor used to calculate how often an ability triggers, here by 300% more than usual. However, Domino affects the tax base from which the calculation is made.

    I think the problem starts with how to interpret the description. "100% chance for Evade to fail" can of course be understood to mean that the probability of evading is reduced by 100%, then Longshot comes and increases this probability by 300% again and so evading should be possible. But if you really understand the description to mean that the probability of dodging is not reduced by 100%, but the ability to dodge at all is reduced by 100%, i.e. the ability to perform this action at all is eliminated, then you can't evade. Then this ability is set to 0.


    If you understand the description in this way, then Domino does not reduce the probability of dodging by 100%, but rather sets the ability to dodge to 0. If Longshot now lets his probability of being able to trigger an ability go over 300%, the probability remains the same still at 0. In the end, however, three times nothing is still nothing.

    You could compare this to the fact that if Longshot had a 300% ability to trigger regeneration but the ability to gain regeneration is not included in his kit, he could never trigger a regeneration either, whether he had a 300%, 500% or 5% chance would have to get one. And that's what Domino does: it eliminates the ability to dodge bey setting it at 0.

    As far as I have understood that, the problem arises at the point that both abilities work on different levels and thus ultimately lead to this (plausible) result despite different percentages.

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    Nameless_IWNameless_IW Posts: 981 ★★★★
    and do you really kabam would do around doing all these math % ????? which in theory should be easy. but i highly doubt it LOL. but i could be wrong
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