Question about Red Guardian

Crimson8399

He is immune to buffs but somehow Wiccan is neutralizing something he can’t gain. Is this another one of kabams this is correct just because with no real logic or am I missing something?

Crimson8399

AverageDesi

Ability accuracy takes place before immunity triggers

Magrailothos

It's a frustrating interaction that 'makes sense' due to the way the game engine works, but is pretty stupid in practicality, since it largely punishes Science champions, who were trying to rely on an ability designed to give them an advantage against Mystic champions, finding that the ability achieves nothing against the new Meta of Mystic champions who Neutralise.

However, the game-engine explanation works something like this:

1. A buff (or debuff) is an effect that is applied to you.
   
2. Dexterity applies a buff to you
   
3. Immunity to buffs (or any other effects) will only be checked when the effect is actually being applied.
   
4. However the Neutralise takes effect at an earlier stage; when your Dexterity Mastery attempts to generate a buff in the first place (it usually has a 100% success rate, but Neutralise reduces it to zero)
   
5. Since your attempt to generate a buff fails, your immunity is never even checked.
   
6. Since your Buff fails due to reduced Ability accuracy, you get Incinerated

Chobbly

This has caught me out a few times, if I remember Spider-Man 2099 is the same. It's a bit annoying but that's how the engine works - great breakdown @Magrailothos .

AverageDesi

Magrailothos said:

It's a frustrating interaction that 'makes sense' due to the way the game engine works, but is pretty stupid in practicality, since it largely punishes Science champions, who were trying to rely on an ability designed to give them an advantage against Mystic champions, finding that the ability achieves nothing against the new Meta of Mystic champions who Neutralise.

However, the game-engine explanation works something like this:

1. A buff (or debuff) is an effect that is applied to you.
   
2. Dexterity applies a buff to you
   
3. Immunity to buffs (or any other effects) will only be checked when the effect is actually being applied.
   
4. However the Neutralise takes effect at an earlier stage; when your Dexterity Mastery attempts to generate a buff in the first place (it usually has a 100% success rate, but Neutralise reduces it to zero)
   
5. Since your attempt to generate a buff fails, your immunity is never even checked.
   
6. Since your Buff fails due to reduced Ability accuracy, you get Incinerated

There's a way it makes perfect sense intuitively too.

If a Nick fury who's ability accuracy has been reduced by 100% were to do a medium attack on Colossus and no bleed is placed, was it because of the immunity or due to aar. Similarly here since it's aar that prevents the buff , incinerate occurs

Ortoun

In a way it makes sense for buff immune champs that actually get a benefit when they would otherwise get a buff, but it happens to Titania too and she gets nothing out of the deal.

Crimson8399

Magrailothos said:

It's a frustrating interaction that 'makes sense' due to the way the game engine works, but is pretty stupid in practicality, since it largely punishes Science champions, who were trying to rely on an ability designed to give them an advantage against Mystic champions, finding that the ability achieves nothing against the new Meta of Mystic champions who Neutralise.

However, the game-engine explanation works something like this:

1. A buff (or debuff) is an effect that is applied to you.
   
2. Dexterity applies a buff to you
   
3. Immunity to buffs (or any other effects) will only be checked when the effect is actually being applied.
   
4. However the Neutralise takes effect at an earlier stage; when your Dexterity Mastery attempts to generate a buff in the first place (it usually has a 100% success rate, but Neutralise reduces it to zero)
   
5. Since your attempt to generate a buff fails, your immunity is never even checked.
   
6. Since your Buff fails due to reduced Ability accuracy, you get Incinerated

That’s wild. It’s does make sense when explained like that but it still feels kinda cheap. Say for instance you are immune to incinerate. Against Wiccan or any AAR node/champ, when a buff fails the incinerate immunity doesn’t go away. Why does it not negate the immunity to incinerate?

AverageDesi

Crimson8399 said:

Magrailothos said:

It's a frustrating interaction that 'makes sense' due to the way the game engine works, but is pretty stupid in practicality, since it largely punishes Science champions, who were trying to rely on an ability designed to give them an advantage against Mystic champions, finding that the ability achieves nothing against the new Meta of Mystic champions who Neutralise.

However, the game-engine explanation works something like this:

1. A buff (or debuff) is an effect that is applied to you.
   
2. Dexterity applies a buff to you
   
3. Immunity to buffs (or any other effects) will only be checked when the effect is actually being applied.
   
4. However the Neutralise takes effect at an earlier stage; when your Dexterity Mastery attempts to generate a buff in the first place (it usually has a 100% success rate, but Neutralise reduces it to zero)
   
5. Since your attempt to generate a buff fails, your immunity is never even checked.
   
6. Since your Buff fails due to reduced Ability accuracy, you get Incinerated

That’s wild. It’s does make sense when explained like that but it still feels kinda cheap. Say for instance you are immune to incinerate. Against Wiccan or any AAR node/champ, when a buff fails the incinerate immunity doesn’t go away. Why does it not negate the immunity to incinerate?

I don't understand exactly what you meant but immunities are unaffected by ability accuracy reduction unless particularly specified. But they are almost non-existent

Crimson8399

AverageDesi said:

Crimson8399 said:

Magrailothos said:

It's a frustrating interaction that 'makes sense' due to the way the game engine works, but is pretty stupid in practicality, since it largely punishes Science champions, who were trying to rely on an ability designed to give them an advantage against Mystic champions, finding that the ability achieves nothing against the new Meta of Mystic champions who Neutralise.

However, the game-engine explanation works something like this:

1. A buff (or debuff) is an effect that is applied to you.
   
2. Dexterity applies a buff to you
   
3. Immunity to buffs (or any other effects) will only be checked when the effect is actually being applied.
   
4. However the Neutralise takes effect at an earlier stage; when your Dexterity Mastery attempts to generate a buff in the first place (it usually has a 100% success rate, but Neutralise reduces it to zero)
   
5. Since your attempt to generate a buff fails, your immunity is never even checked.
   
6. Since your Buff fails due to reduced Ability accuracy, you get Incinerated

That’s wild. It’s does make sense when explained like that but it still feels kinda cheap. Say for instance you are immune to incinerate. Against Wiccan or any AAR node/champ, when a buff fails the incinerate immunity doesn’t go away. Why does it not negate the immunity to incinerate?

I don't understand exactly what you meant but immunities are unaffected by ability accuracy reduction unless particularly specified. But they are almost non-existent

I believe I understand a little more now. After rereading the description on neutralize for the 10th time lol, the AAR only affects anything that has to due with a buff gained. I.E. when Red Guardian tries to gain a buff he instead gets a charge to his shield. The neutralize isn’t affecting the buff itself per say but the effect that the buff gives. It has no effect on non buff abilities like base kit immunity.

nIHSEAN

What is even the point of using class advantage and buff immune character?

Thats such an awful design.

It forces to use archangel or any other high ability acc champ.

Pikolu

A fun interaction to go along with what @Magrailothos said is QS is unaffected by neutralize due to him replacing the Dexterity mastery. So because of how he works, a Dexterity buff doesn't even attempt to be placed on him and thus he can dex just fine while neutralized.

13579rebel_

It's time for Kabam to add the first neutralize immune champion without synergies

Maybe sandman

AverageDesi

13579rebel_ said:

It's time for Kabam to add the first neutralize immune champion without synergies

Maybe sandman

Any aar immune champ works. Archangel for example