As for "They can hoard it until they hit Paragon.", so can Paragons.
WTF does this even mean?
It means nothing is stopping any Player at any progress level from hoarding their Trophies. The limits are the same for everyone. A Paragon can hoard just the same as a Player below. This idea that they're going to gain some kind of unfair advantage by hoarding them (compared to Players that have been Paragon much longer at that) is not logical.
Do you really not understand the hoarding argument? We've been talking about it for like 6 months now and you still don't get it?
Do you really think that an Uncollected player hoarding Trophy Tokens (TT) is a winning strategy vs. a Paragon player?
Suppose an Uncollected (UC) player collects the cap number of TT: 150,000.
How many seasons will that take them?
Victory Track (VT) provides 45,000 TT per season. So it takes them 3 seasons to get 135,000 TT. And 4 seasons to get 150,000 (they will hit the TT cap when they finish Gold 1 on Season 4).
So already we are seeing there might be an advantages difference between an UC player farming 135,000 TT vs 150,000 TT: days budgeted, etc.
How long does a Season Take?
Season 7 Dates: Start April 19th, 2023; End May 17th, 2023 Season 8 Dates: Start May, 24th, 2023; End June 21st, 2023
Each Season lasts 29 days. There is a 7 day period between Seasons.
How many days will it take them do get 135,000 or 150,000 TT?
To get to 135,000 TT will take 73 days (if they farm Season 3's 45k TT in 1 day) to 101 days (if they take all of Season 3 to farm the 45k TT). To get to 150,000 TT will take 109 to 137 days.
Keep in mind, BG matches take an estimated 10-15 minutes each. It takes 17 wins to complete Gold 1, and 41 wins to complete Vibranium 1. So if a player never lost a match (beaten, bug, etc.) it would take them 2.8 to 4.3 hours to farm Gold 1, and 6.8 to 10.3 hours to farm Vibranium 1.
What the heck are you proposing they do then that is such a great strategy?
They've already wasted 73 to 137 days stuck at Uncollected. That's 73-137 days of missed Paragon Daily Crystals, ~3-4 missed Paragon Daily Calendars, ~3-4 missed Paragon and Thronebreaker and Cavalier Side Quest events. Plus (depending on what content they choose to do) things like Paragon AQ, AW, Monthly Quest, access to offers, etc.
And how much TT would they have over the same period if they just Progressed to Paragon instead and played BG as Paragon? Even if its a Meh skill player and they get stuck at Gold 1 (17,100 TT/season), that's 51,300 to 68,400 TT for the same season time. And with this new "easy progression" to Platinum 1, are Meh skill Paragon players still getting stuck at Gold 1? (for reference, Platinum 1 is 25,200 TT/season). And what if they are a skilled Paragon player, then they can get more TT than an Uncollected player, which makes UC hoarding a total net loser.
And how much time is it gonna take them to Complete content to get from Uncollected to Paragon? That time is gonna be part of their missed days for Paragon Daily crystals, Paragon Daily Calendar, might affect Side Quest events depending on the player's time and schedule budget, access to offers, etc..
So take that Uncollected players 135,000 to 150,000 TT and subtract the (rewards only) "opportunity costs": 73-137 days of missed Paragon Daily Crystals ~3-4 missed Paragon Daily Calendars ~3-4 Paragon and Thronebreaker and Cavalier Side Quest events 51,300 to 68,400 TT (if they only get to Gold 1)
Cross cancel the Uncollected TT vs. Paragon TT.
135,000 TT hoarding method:
Meh skill Uncollected player's opportunity cost: 73-101 days of missed Paragon Daily Crystals ~3 missed Paragon Daily Calendars ~3 missed Paragon and Thronebreaker and Cavalier Side Quest events (+ AW, AQ, Monthly Quest, etc. depending on the player and what they do at Paragon)
Meh skill Uncollected player's opportunity cost: 109-137 days of Paragon Daily Crystals ~3-4 Paragon Daily Calendars ~3-4 Paragon and Thronebreaker and Cavalier Side Quest events (+ AW, AQ, Monthly Quest, etc. depending on the player and what they do at Paragon)
Do you have a different hoarding model? Tell me and we can calculate that and see how it matches up.
Or is the 6 months of hoarding argument more of a fantasy thing, that some people want to just accept as real, so they can believe it because it makes them feel better? A lot of MCOC is players paying (money, time, etc.) to access a fantasy outcome. As Justin Y. said, "The intent of gacha games is to provide players with a sense of pride and accomplishment". And that is fine too. Culture and people's lives are full of fantasy to help bolster emotion, health, inspiration, and prosperity.
lol, this is so much writing arguing a point that literally zero people have made.
Because you all see to be having trouble, the "hoarding" argument is that low players don't have to spend their tokens and can hoard them until they raise their level, which is the only argument vs the rearda being different.
As for "They can hoard it until they hit Paragon.", so can Paragons.
WTF does this even mean?
It means nothing is stopping any Player at any progress level from hoarding their Trophies. The limits are the same for everyone. A Paragon can hoard just the same as a Player below. This idea that they're going to gain some kind of unfair advantage by hoarding them (compared to Players that have been Paragon much longer at that) is not logical.
Do you really not understand the hoarding argument? We've been talking about it for like 6 months now and you still don't get it?
Do you really think that an Uncollected player hoarding Trophy Tokens (TT) is a winning strategy vs. a Paragon player?
Suppose an Uncollected (UC) player collects the cap number of TT: 150,000.
How many seasons will that take them?
Victory Track (VT) provides 45,000 TT per season. So it takes them 3 seasons to get 135,000 TT. And 4 seasons to get 150,000 (they will hit the TT cap when they finish Gold 1 on Season 4).
So already we are seeing there might be an advantages difference between an UC player farming 135,000 TT vs 150,000 TT: days budgeted, etc.
How long does a Season Take?
Season 7 Dates: Start April 19th, 2023; End May 17th, 2023 Season 8 Dates: Start May, 24th, 2023; End June 21st, 2023
Each Season lasts 29 days. There is a 7 day period between Seasons.
How many days will it take them do get 135,000 or 150,000 TT?
To get to 135,000 TT will take 73 days (if they farm Season 3's 45k TT in 1 day) to 101 days (if they take all of Season 3 to farm the 45k TT). To get to 150,000 TT will take 109 to 137 days.
Keep in mind, BG matches take an estimated 10-15 minutes each. It takes 17 wins to complete Gold 1, and 41 wins to complete Vibranium 1. So if a player never lost a match (beaten, bug, etc.) it would take them 2.8 to 4.3 hours to farm Gold 1, and 6.8 to 10.3 hours to farm Vibranium 1.
What the heck are you proposing they do then that is such a great strategy?
They've already wasted 73 to 137 days stuck at Uncollected. That's 73-137 days of missed Paragon Daily Crystals, ~3-4 missed Paragon Daily Calendars, ~3-4 missed Paragon and Thronebreaker and Cavalier Side Quest events. Plus (depending on what content they choose to do) things like Paragon AQ, AW, Monthly Quest, access to offers, etc.
And how much TT would they have over the same period if they just Progressed to Paragon instead and played BG as Paragon? Even if its a Meh skill player and they get stuck at Gold 1 (17,100 TT/season), that's 51,300 to 68,400 TT for the same season time. And with this new "easy progression" to Platinum 1, are Meh skill Paragon players still getting stuck at Gold 1? (for reference, Platinum 1 is 25,200 TT/season). And what if they are a skilled Paragon player, then they can get more TT than an Uncollected player, which makes UC hoarding a total net loser.
And how much time is it gonna take them to Complete content to get from Uncollected to Paragon? That time is gonna be part of their missed days for Paragon Daily crystals, Paragon Daily Calendar, might affect Side Quest events depending on the player's time and schedule budget, access to offers, etc..
So take that Uncollected players 135,000 to 150,000 TT and subtract the (rewards only) "opportunity costs": 73-137 days of missed Paragon Daily Crystals ~3-4 missed Paragon Daily Calendars ~3-4 Paragon and Thronebreaker and Cavalier Side Quest events 51,300 to 68,400 TT (if they only get to Gold 1)
Cross cancel the Uncollected TT vs. Paragon TT.
135,000 TT hoarding method:
Meh skill Uncollected player's opportunity cost: 73-101 days of missed Paragon Daily Crystals ~3 missed Paragon Daily Calendars ~3 missed Paragon and Thronebreaker and Cavalier Side Quest events (+ AW, AQ, Monthly Quest, etc. depending on the player and what they do at Paragon)
Meh skill Uncollected player's opportunity cost: 109-137 days of Paragon Daily Crystals ~3-4 Paragon Daily Calendars ~3-4 Paragon and Thronebreaker and Cavalier Side Quest events (+ AW, AQ, Monthly Quest, etc. depending on the player and what they do at Paragon)
Do you have a different hoarding model? Tell me and we can calculate that and see how it matches up.
Or is the 6 months of hoarding argument more of a fantasy thing, that some people want to just accept as real, so they can believe it because it makes them feel better? A lot of MCOC is players paying (money, time, etc.) to access a fantasy outcome. As Justin Y. said, "The intent of gacha games is to provide players with a sense of pride and accomplishment". And that is fine too. Culture and people's lives are full of fantasy to help bolster emotion, health, inspiration, and prosperity.
lol, this is so much writing arguing a point that literally zero people have made.
Because you all see to be having trouble, the "hoarding" argument is that low players don't have to spend their tokens and can hoard them until they raise their level, which is the only argument vs the rearda being different.
Keep up people.
I appreciate your response.
Based on your feedback, I expect we're not going to be able to reach much of a consensus.
I was literally just trying to work with your input to construct models with which to asses claims and stuff. I have a background in economics, accounting, project management, analysis, excel, making models, reports, etc. I can work with you or others to model, analyze, derive takeaways, and document findings for things.
I was providing my initial modeling and review, and asking for your input to adjust it to best reflect your concepts of the issue so as to then better model and review it.
But your feedback implies you see the issue as really being about controlling narrative and outcomes. And the substance of the claims referenced are merely window dressing. You're pushing personal fantasy. Mocking your perceived adversaries and trumpeting your grandeur with bold nonsense assertions wielded like a club.
Nothing wrong with that. MCOC and its community is a flexible, diverse space for people to explore the avenues that interest them. If you're feeling it, have at it. It's all good. You do you.
I feel like the only people disagreeing are the paragon players who benefit off the free wins xD
If you dont have the roster and/or the skill why should you get to progress farther? Why do you feel you should make it past Plat? I am so tired of people complaining that they can’t make it past Victory track. You are able to progress as far as your roster and skill will allow you to progress.
I dont care about victory track if you had eyes and could read i mainly complained about not being able to do solo objectives
You can do half the objectives- play 3 matches everyday for 600 tokens. Maybe you will win a match or 2 at some point to get a few of the win objectives done
Does it look like i want to progress every 3 days
Then you have to complete story content or work on building your roster. It seems like you want everything and you want it now and the only way to do that is drop some serious money.
No no ill probably quit mcoc soon anyway got bigger fish to fry now
As for "They can hoard it until they hit Paragon.", so can Paragons.
WTF does this even mean?
It means nothing is stopping any Player at any progress level from hoarding their Trophies. The limits are the same for everyone. A Paragon can hoard just the same as a Player below. This idea that they're going to gain some kind of unfair advantage by hoarding them (compared to Players that have been Paragon much longer at that) is not logical.
Do you really not understand the hoarding argument? We've been talking about it for like 6 months now and you still don't get it?
Do you really think that an Uncollected player hoarding Trophy Tokens (TT) is a winning strategy vs. a Paragon player?
Suppose an Uncollected (UC) player collects the cap number of TT: 150,000.
How many seasons will that take them?
Victory Track (VT) provides 45,000 TT per season. So it takes them 3 seasons to get 135,000 TT. And 4 seasons to get 150,000 (they will hit the TT cap when they finish Gold 1 on Season 4).
So already we are seeing there might be an advantages difference between an UC player farming 135,000 TT vs 150,000 TT: days budgeted, etc.
How long does a Season Take?
Season 7 Dates: Start April 19th, 2023; End May 17th, 2023 Season 8 Dates: Start May, 24th, 2023; End June 21st, 2023
Each Season lasts 29 days. There is a 7 day period between Seasons.
How many days will it take them do get 135,000 or 150,000 TT?
To get to 135,000 TT will take 73 days (if they farm Season 3's 45k TT in 1 day) to 101 days (if they take all of Season 3 to farm the 45k TT). To get to 150,000 TT will take 109 to 137 days.
Keep in mind, BG matches take an estimated 10-15 minutes each. It takes 17 wins to complete Gold 1, and 41 wins to complete Vibranium 1. So if a player never lost a match (beaten, bug, etc.) it would take them 2.8 to 4.3 hours to farm Gold 1, and 6.8 to 10.3 hours to farm Vibranium 1.
What the heck are you proposing they do then that is such a great strategy?
They've already wasted 73 to 137 days stuck at Uncollected. That's 73-137 days of missed Paragon Daily Crystals, ~3-4 missed Paragon Daily Calendars, ~3-4 missed Paragon and Thronebreaker and Cavalier Side Quest events. Plus (depending on what content they choose to do) things like Paragon AQ, AW, Monthly Quest, access to offers, etc.
And how much TT would they have over the same period if they just Progressed to Paragon instead and played BG as Paragon? Even if its a Meh skill player and they get stuck at Gold 1 (17,100 TT/season), that's 51,300 to 68,400 TT for the same season time. And with this new "easy progression" to Platinum 1, are Meh skill Paragon players still getting stuck at Gold 1? (for reference, Platinum 1 is 25,200 TT/season). And what if they are a skilled Paragon player, then they can get more TT than an Uncollected player, which makes UC hoarding a total net loser.
And how much time is it gonna take them to Complete content to get from Uncollected to Paragon? That time is gonna be part of their missed days for Paragon Daily crystals, Paragon Daily Calendar, might affect Side Quest events depending on the player's time and schedule budget, access to offers, etc..
So take that Uncollected players 135,000 to 150,000 TT and subtract the (rewards only) "opportunity costs": 73-137 days of missed Paragon Daily Crystals ~3-4 missed Paragon Daily Calendars ~3-4 Paragon and Thronebreaker and Cavalier Side Quest events 51,300 to 68,400 TT (if they only get to Gold 1)
Cross cancel the Uncollected TT vs. Paragon TT.
135,000 TT hoarding method:
Meh skill Uncollected player's opportunity cost: 73-101 days of missed Paragon Daily Crystals ~3 missed Paragon Daily Calendars ~3 missed Paragon and Thronebreaker and Cavalier Side Quest events (+ AW, AQ, Monthly Quest, etc. depending on the player and what they do at Paragon)
Meh skill Uncollected player's opportunity cost: 109-137 days of Paragon Daily Crystals ~3-4 Paragon Daily Calendars ~3-4 Paragon and Thronebreaker and Cavalier Side Quest events (+ AW, AQ, Monthly Quest, etc. depending on the player and what they do at Paragon)
Do you have a different hoarding model? Tell me and we can calculate that and see how it matches up.
Or is the 6 months of hoarding argument more of a fantasy thing, that some people want to just accept as real, so they can believe it because it makes them feel better? A lot of MCOC is players paying (money, time, etc.) to access a fantasy outcome. As Justin Y. said, "The intent of gacha games is to provide players with a sense of pride and accomplishment". And that is fine too. Culture and people's lives are full of fantasy to help bolster emotion, health, inspiration, and prosperity.
lol, this is so much writing arguing a point that literally zero people have made.
Because you all see to be having trouble, the "hoarding" argument is that low players don't have to spend their tokens and can hoard them until they raise their level, which is the only argument vs the rearda being different.
Keep up people.
I appreciate your response.
Based on your feedback, I expect we're not going to be able to reach much of a consensus.
I was literally just trying to work with your input to construct models with which to asses claims and stuff. I have a background in economics, accounting, project management, analysis, excel, making models, reports, etc. I can work with you or others to model, analyze, derive takeaways, and document findings for things.
I was providing my initial modeling and review, and asking for your input to adjust it to best reflect your concepts of the issue so as to then better model and review it.
But your feedback implies you see the issue as really being about controlling narrative and outcomes. And the substance of the claims referenced are merely window dressing. You're pushing personal fantasy. Mocking your perceived adversaries and trumpeting your grandeur with bold nonsense assertions wielded like a club.
Nothing wrong with that. MCOC and its community is a flexible, diverse space for people to explore the avenues that interest them. If you're feeling it, have at it. It's all good. You do you.
Easy there buddy u might strain ur fingers typing that much
As for "They can hoard it until they hit Paragon.", so can Paragons.
WTF does this even mean?
It means nothing is stopping any Player at any progress level from hoarding their Trophies. The limits are the same for everyone. A Paragon can hoard just the same as a Player below. This idea that they're going to gain some kind of unfair advantage by hoarding them (compared to Players that have been Paragon much longer at that) is not logical.
Do you really not understand the hoarding argument? We've been talking about it for like 6 months now and you still don't get it?
Do you really think that an Uncollected player hoarding Trophy Tokens (TT) is a winning strategy vs. a Paragon player?
Suppose an Uncollected (UC) player collects the cap number of TT: 150,000.
How many seasons will that take them?
Victory Track (VT) provides 45,000 TT per season. So it takes them 3 seasons to get 135,000 TT. And 4 seasons to get 150,000 (they will hit the TT cap when they finish Gold 1 on Season 4).
So already we are seeing there might be an advantages difference between an UC player farming 135,000 TT vs 150,000 TT: days budgeted, etc.
How long does a Season Take?
Season 7 Dates: Start April 19th, 2023; End May 17th, 2023 Season 8 Dates: Start May, 24th, 2023; End June 21st, 2023
Each Season lasts 29 days. There is a 7 day period between Seasons.
How many days will it take them do get 135,000 or 150,000 TT?
To get to 135,000 TT will take 73 days (if they farm Season 3's 45k TT in 1 day) to 101 days (if they take all of Season 3 to farm the 45k TT). To get to 150,000 TT will take 109 to 137 days.
Keep in mind, BG matches take an estimated 10-15 minutes each. It takes 17 wins to complete Gold 1, and 41 wins to complete Vibranium 1. So if a player never lost a match (beaten, bug, etc.) it would take them 2.8 to 4.3 hours to farm Gold 1, and 6.8 to 10.3 hours to farm Vibranium 1.
What the heck are you proposing they do then that is such a great strategy?
They've already wasted 73 to 137 days stuck at Uncollected. That's 73-137 days of missed Paragon Daily Crystals, ~3-4 missed Paragon Daily Calendars, ~3-4 missed Paragon and Thronebreaker and Cavalier Side Quest events. Plus (depending on what content they choose to do) things like Paragon AQ, AW, Monthly Quest, access to offers, etc.
And how much TT would they have over the same period if they just Progressed to Paragon instead and played BG as Paragon? Even if its a Meh skill player and they get stuck at Gold 1 (17,100 TT/season), that's 51,300 to 68,400 TT for the same season time. And with this new "easy progression" to Platinum 1, are Meh skill Paragon players still getting stuck at Gold 1? (for reference, Platinum 1 is 25,200 TT/season). And what if they are a skilled Paragon player, then they can get more TT than an Uncollected player, which makes UC hoarding a total net loser.
And how much time is it gonna take them to Complete content to get from Uncollected to Paragon? That time is gonna be part of their missed days for Paragon Daily crystals, Paragon Daily Calendar, might affect Side Quest events depending on the player's time and schedule budget, access to offers, etc..
So take that Uncollected players 135,000 to 150,000 TT and subtract the (rewards only) "opportunity costs": 73-137 days of missed Paragon Daily Crystals ~3-4 missed Paragon Daily Calendars ~3-4 Paragon and Thronebreaker and Cavalier Side Quest events 51,300 to 68,400 TT (if they only get to Gold 1)
Cross cancel the Uncollected TT vs. Paragon TT.
135,000 TT hoarding method:
Meh skill Uncollected player's opportunity cost: 73-101 days of missed Paragon Daily Crystals ~3 missed Paragon Daily Calendars ~3 missed Paragon and Thronebreaker and Cavalier Side Quest events (+ AW, AQ, Monthly Quest, etc. depending on the player and what they do at Paragon)
Meh skill Uncollected player's opportunity cost: 109-137 days of Paragon Daily Crystals ~3-4 Paragon Daily Calendars ~3-4 Paragon and Thronebreaker and Cavalier Side Quest events (+ AW, AQ, Monthly Quest, etc. depending on the player and what they do at Paragon)
Do you have a different hoarding model? Tell me and we can calculate that and see how it matches up.
Or is the 6 months of hoarding argument more of a fantasy thing, that some people want to just accept as real, so they can believe it because it makes them feel better? A lot of MCOC is players paying (money, time, etc.) to access a fantasy outcome. As Justin Y. said, "The intent of gacha games is to provide players with a sense of pride and accomplishment". And that is fine too. Culture and people's lives are full of fantasy to help bolster emotion, health, inspiration, and prosperity.
lol, this is so much writing arguing a point that literally zero people have made.
Because you all see to be having trouble, the "hoarding" argument is that low players don't have to spend their tokens and can hoard them until they raise their level, which is the only argument vs the rearda being different.
Keep up people.
I appreciate your response.
Based on your feedback, I expect we're not going to be able to reach much of a consensus.
I was literally just trying to work with your input to construct models with which to asses claims and stuff. I have a background in economics, accounting, project management, analysis, excel, making models, reports, etc. I can work with you or others to model, analyze, derive takeaways, and document findings for things.
I was providing my initial modeling and review, and asking for your input to adjust it to best reflect your concepts of the issue so as to then better model and review it.
But your feedback implies you see the issue as really being about controlling narrative and outcomes. And the substance of the claims referenced are merely window dressing. You're pushing personal fantasy. Mocking your perceived adversaries and trumpeting your grandeur with bold nonsense assertions wielded like a club.
Nothing wrong with that. MCOC and its community is a flexible, diverse space for people to explore the avenues that interest them. If you're feeling it, have at it. It's all good. You do you.
You're arguing a point that no one has claimed. It's really as simple as "low players can cruze to the GC in past seasons or Plat now, hold their tokens until they raise their level, and then spend them once they hit TB or Paragon." That's it. There doesn't need to be any models or analysis.
Any game with a rank system is this way the bigger accounts and the more skilled players get the top rewards and the others work on the account and skills so eventually they can compete at the highest lvl
You're arguing a point that no one has claimed. It's really as simple as "low players can cruze to the GC in past seasons or Plat now, hold their tokens until they raise their level, and then spend them once they hit TB or Paragon." That's it. There doesn't need to be any models or analysis.
All he is trying to tell you is that hoarding tokens makes little sense since there is a cap on the number of tokens you can hold. At the rate at which tokens are acquired, suggesting that players hoard tokens is equivalent to saying don't play BG beyond 2-3 seasons.
Any game with a rank system is this way the bigger accounts and the more skilled players get the top rewards and the others work on the account and skills so eventually they can compete at the highest lvl
The card game Hearthstone has a mode called "Ranked" which is basically the same as MCOC's Battlegrounds.
Years after its release, Hearthstone's Ranked was changed to "help players progress in the ladder without having to grind as much, while still making most matches fair." Battlegrounds can learn from this.
(NOTE 1: To make the review of Hearthstone's Ranked easier, I will be using MCOC Battlegrounds terms in place of the Hearthstone terms for the same things. Example: "Victory Medals" in Battlegrounds are called "Stars" in Hearthstone, so I will just call them Medals).
Also, one key difference is that Hearthstone's Ranked has also always had a "winning streak feature" that grants players a bonus Medal if they also won the previous two matches. This Win Streak bonus is only active for matches up to the completion of Platinum 1.
Hearthstone's Ranked mode launched in 2013, and in 2020 it was overhauled in part to: "make the matchmaking experience fairer... while preserving the essentials of the core system that’s already in place"
Hearthstone's 2020 Overhaul for a "matchmaking experience fairer": =======================================================
Medal Bonuses: "At the start of each season, players will be awarded a Medal Bonus based on their performance the previous season(s). This Medal Bonus acts as a multiplier on the Medals you earn from each win.
For example, if you have a Medal Bonus of 5x and you win a game, you’ll get five Medals instead of one. If your winning game is a part of a win streak, you’ll get double that: 10 Medals." (plus any other Medal bonuses)
"Upon hitting each new Tier in your climb, your Medal Bonus will be reduced by one. When playing with a Medal Bonus you’ll be matched by your matchmaking rating (MMR), meaning you’ll be matched even more precisely with players of your similar skill level when climbing."
"Every player starts with at least 2 Medal Bonus at the beginning of a season. Also, if a player misses playing for multiple seasons, the player will not lose much of their Medal Bonus.
The following is a table of the minimum Medal Bonus a player can start with at the start of a season, provided the player's best rank performance in the last season(s):"
Best rank last season.................Minimum Medal Bonus ======================================= Bronze 3...........................................2x Bronze 1...........................................2x Silver 3..............................................2x Silver 1..............................................3x Gold 3...............................................4x Gold 1...............................................5x Platinum 3........................................6x Platinum 1........................................7x Diamond 3........................................8x Diamond 1........................................9x Vibranium.......................................10x Gladiator's Circuit...........................11x
"Q: How does matchmaking work for each season?
A: There are two matchmaking pools: matchmaking by rating (aka. MMR) and by Tier.
When your Medal Bonus multiplier is bigger than 1 you are (generally) in the first matchmaking pool; when your Medal Bonus drops to 1, you are in the second pool."
"Q: Why are there two matchmaking pools?
A: Since each player starts at the bottom of the ladder at start, we want fair matches for everyone (aka. win-rate close to 50%). At that time, your progression on ladder is protected by your Medal Bonus, thus your net expected gain will be positive through the ladder. Once other players run out of Medal Bonuses, matching by rank will allow for good players, or players who want to push themselves a bit, to be able to progress to a higher rank.
In short, having two matchmaking pools helps players progress in the ladder without having to grind as much, while still making most matches fair."
"Q: If I 'tank' my MMR at certain rank floor, will I be matched with easier opponents next season because you are matchmaking by MMR at the start?
A: No, in general you won’t. At the start of the season we will recover your MMR to certain threshold if it is dropped below that value, which is based on what your rank is in the previous season. Therefore, there would be no benefits to intentionally tank your MMR."
"Q: Do you reset MMR each season?
A: No, we do not."
"Q: Will the value of my previous season’s MMR be exactly same as the new season?
A: Technically no, although the change will be very small and the “value order” will be kept (Player A whose MMR is larger than player B in the last season will still be ordered as such). Mathematically, a re-normalization process takes place at the start of each season to keep the distribution in a nice bell-shaped curve."
"Q: If I missed one season, will I lose my Medal Bonuses when I return?
A: No, you won’t."
"Q: If I missed multiple seasons, will I lose Medal Bonuses when I return?
A: Based on how long you are absent, there will be some small decay applied to your MMR. Therefore, you may (or may not) lose some Medal Bonuses."
Any game with a rank system is this way the bigger accounts and the more skilled players get the top rewards and the others work on the account and skills so eventually they can compete at the highest lvl
I think it’s important to point out that war was NOT this way and it was a joke.
We were a high prestige alliance constantly matching other high prestige alliances, sputtering to 7-5 records and never climbing. When Kabam removed the shadow element of prestige from matchmaking, we spent half a season obliterating alt accounts full of 4-stars until our war rating landed where it should’ve been all along.
This game should NEVER create a disincentive for roster growth. It’s really bad that my cavalier alt, which I abandoned almost two years ago, would have an easier time reaching platinum than my paragon account with two dozen champs that are 6r4 or 7-star.
Well, with the new Season giving Conqueror progression entrance, game developer is very likely to create match-making permitting Conqueror to ascend to the highest tier in VC.
Well, with the new Season giving Conqueror progression entrance, game developer is very likely to create match-making permitting Conqueror to ascend to the highest tier in VC.
I doubt they're gonna touch matchmaking. It'd be too much work, which is exactly what they're trying to avoid by just adding rewards to the current missions. The way they have it set up now should be good enough to let Conquerors have a chance at silver or gold, just with excruciatingly long load times.
It is a mix message from Game developer. The allowing Conqueror into BG is buried into massive text. Which conqueror likely to read something non-relevant to their progression? And the added rewards, I can’t even reach it myself. Ok, does not mean others can’t but Conqueror?
This is one one of my alt at Conqueror. Heading into GC 🔜,
It is a mix message from Game developer. The allowing Conqueror into BG is buried into massive text. Which conqueror likely to read something non-relevant to their progression? And the added rewards, I can’t even reach it myself. Ok, does not mean others can’t but Conqueror?
Years after its release, Hearthstone's Ranked was changed to "help players progress in the ladder without having to grind as much, while still making most matches fair." Battlegrounds can learn from this.
Or, they can implement ranked seasonal restarts, which tackles similar problems in a different way and Kabam has stated they are already working on.
Here's an interesting question: why did Heathstone use the match system they did for so long? Is Kabam ten times smarter than Hearthstone's developers for tackling similar issues that much faster?
Spoilers: not really. Game systems evolve over time based on a number of factors, and rarely can you simply transplant them from one game to another. Chess has been using ELO for competitive purposes for longer than MCOC and Hearthstone have existed combined. Why didn't both of them simply universally implement ELO, when it obviously has a multidecade track record?
Years after its release, Hearthstone's Ranked was changed to "help players progress in the ladder without having to grind as much, while still making most matches fair." Battlegrounds can learn from this.
Or, they can implement ranked seasonal restarts, which tackles similar problems in a different way and Kabam has stated they are already working on.
Here's an interesting question: why did Heathstone use the match system they did for so long? Is Kabam ten times smarter than Hearthstone's developers for tackling similar issues that much faster?
How familiar are you with Hearthstone between 2013 and 2020?
I have time in on both newer MCOC and older Hearthstone. In addition to my "thing" as a designer. So I'm bringing in some measure of context in my review of these matters.
So, depending on your knowledge of HS, I can either just jump into the middle of it if you know older HS well, or I can ease into it slowly and with added notes if you don't know older HS well.
Spoilers: not really. Game systems evolve over time based on a number of factors, and rarely can you simply transplant them from one game to another. Chess has been using ELO for competitive purposes for longer than MCOC and Hearthstone have existed combined. Why didn't both of them simply universally implement ELO, when it obviously has a multidecade track record?
I generally do not subscribe to the notion of game systems incompatibility. To me it's more about what the goals are and considerations of how to derive them.
But I also am generally not one to cast shade on someone else's view and methods in their creative processes.
You're arguing a point that no one has claimed. It's really as simple as "low players can cruze to the GC in past seasons or Plat now, hold their tokens until they raise their level, and then spend them once they hit TB or Paragon." That's it. There doesn't need to be any models or analysis.
All he is trying to tell you is that hoarding tokens makes little sense since there is a cap on the number of tokens you can hold. At the rate at which tokens are acquired, suggesting that players hoard tokens is equivalent to saying don't play BG beyond 2-3 seasons.
He, and you, are wrong. The cap is 150k, which is a few months of hoarding. Paragon can be done in a week of just doing a single clear of the story content.
You're arguing a point that no one has claimed. It's really as simple as "low players can cruze to the GC in past seasons or Plat now, hold their tokens until they raise their level, and then spend them once they hit TB or Paragon." That's it. There doesn't need to be any models or analysis.
All he is trying to tell you is that hoarding tokens makes little sense since there is a cap on the number of tokens you can hold. At the rate at which tokens are acquired, suggesting that players hoard tokens is equivalent to saying don't play BG beyond 2-3 seasons.
He, and you, are wrong. The cap is 150k, which is a few months of hoarding. Paragon can be done in a week of just doing a single clear of the story content.
No one who can go from Uncollected to Paragon in a week is staying at UC for months to hoard tokens. The opportunity cost of doing so is so high. At the minimum you are missing out on 6-8 AGs from side quest objectives alone.
Plus, those players will get the same matchups they got earlier (since matchmaking is not progression based). Why are these weird caricatures of UC players you have built up, staying at UC if they can get to Paragon in a week?
If someone can get GC or Plat Season after season then they are able to push Paragon if they choose to.
Seatin got his f2p account to TB in a month after not playing for a few years. Don't give me some sob story about how hard it is to get a higher title. Especially if you're going to argue that titles don't represent a player's skill level. If those UCs and Cavs are so good that they'd beat Paragons with an equal roster, like has been argues, then getting Paragon would be pretty easy.
If someone can get GC or Plat Season after season then they are able to push Paragon if they choose to.
Seatin got his f2p account to TB in a month after not playing for a few years. Don't give me some sob story about how hard it is to get a higher title. Especially if you're going to argue that titles don't represent a player's skill level. If those UCs and Cavs are so good that they'd beat Paragons with an equal roster, like has been argues, then getting Paragon would be pretty easy.
I'm not giving you a sob story. I'm genuinely asking you why you think someone would decide to stay at UC if it was so easy for them to get to Paragon. Token hoarding as a reason makes no sense. The way matchmaking works they would get the same matches with their roster at Paragon that they would get at UC - they can get the same tokens irrespective of where they are in the story. With additional rewards from other game modes, why does anyone who can get to the top progression tier in a week (or even a month) chose to spend 3-4 months at UC?
If someone can get GC or Plat Season after season then they are able to push Paragon if they choose to.
Seatin got his f2p account to TB in a month after not playing for a few years. Don't give me some sob story about how hard it is to get a higher title. Especially if you're going to argue that titles don't represent a player's skill level. If those UCs and Cavs are so good that they'd beat Paragons with an equal roster, like has been argues, then getting Paragon would be pretty easy.
I'm not giving you a sob story. I'm genuinely asking you why you think someone would decide to stay at UC if it was so easy for them to get to Paragon. Token hoarding as a reason makes no sense. The way matchmaking works they would get the same matches with their roster at Paragon that they would get at UC - they can get the same tokens irrespective of where they are in the story. With additional rewards from other game modes, why does anyone who can get to the top progression tier in a week (or even a month) chose to spend 3-4 months at UC?
What do you mean they would get the same matches at Paragon? The matches for UC players are not the same as Paragons, that's what all these threads are about.
Keeping your account low to get easy matches for a few seasons only to boost your title and then spend the tokens is the smartest thing for low accounts to do.
If someone can get GC or Plat Season after season then they are able to push Paragon if they choose to.
Seatin got his f2p account to TB in a month after not playing for a few years. Don't give me some sob story about how hard it is to get a higher title. Especially if you're going to argue that titles don't represent a player's skill level. If those UCs and Cavs are so good that they'd beat Paragons with an equal roster, like has been argues, then getting Paragon would be pretty easy.
I'm not giving you a sob story. I'm genuinely asking you why you think someone would decide to stay at UC if it was so easy for them to get to Paragon. Token hoarding as a reason makes no sense. The way matchmaking works they would get the same matches with their roster at Paragon that they would get at UC - they can get the same tokens irrespective of where they are in the story. With additional rewards from other game modes, why does anyone who can get to the top progression tier in a week (or even a month) chose to spend 3-4 months at UC?
What do you mean they would get the same matches at Paragon? The matches for UC players are not the same as Paragons, that's what all these threads are about.
Keeping your account low to get easy matches for a few seasons only to boost your title and then spend the tokens is the smartest thing for low accounts to do.
Matchmaking isn't by progression levels but by roster strength. Matches for large rosters is not same as matches for small rosters. I don't think progression level is an input to matchmaking. The discussions use prestige/title as a proxy for roster strength. No one is implying that the players are siloed by actual story progression (only the BG store is).
Rosters don't move from 9-11k to 15-17K in a week or a month, however well one does on the story progression. You might get a prestige bump up because you were able to rank up a couple of champs but your broader roster (and BG deck) isn't going to change dramatically in a week or month. UCs who are at 9-11K and who you think can get to Paragon in a week will still face the same opponents in BG that they were earlier facing. They are not suddenly going to face 17k rosters. So there is really no need for them to camp.
Also, if one can get to Paragon they should. Tactically, there is no reason to stay at lower levels, especially not to hoard token. It is definitely not the smartest thing to do.
You have to increase your roster to raise your title so roster size is directly relates to your roster size.
Prestige is only 5 champs so if you do the content and r4 3 champs you can easily raise your prestige drastically by doing the story content and raising your title.
Hoarding is the name of the game. If you choose to blow all your tokens in an overpriced store (which is the whole F'n argument if you've forgotten) then that's up to you. My point is that it's not hard to raise your title to lower the price if you want to be smart with your resources.
You have to increase your roster to raise your title so roster size is directly relates to your roster size.
Prestige is only 5 champs so if you do the content and r4 3 champs you can easily raise your prestige drastically by doing the story content and raising your title.
Hoarding is the name of the game. If you choose to blow all your tokens in an overpriced store (which is the whole F'n argument if you've forgotten) then that's up to you. My point is that it's not hard to raise your title to lower the price if you want to be smart with your resources.
It is NOT that easy to jet to Paragon. Regardless of some professional YouTubers. You're also ignoring the fact that hoarding for months is less of an issue of Rewards structure and more of a personal issue of keeping Players from being able to advance. There is no system that prevents anyone from hoarding their Trophies. You're not going to stop them from doing it by beating them down in Bronze. You've also ignored the logic presented about how that's not advantageous to do at all, and just leads to months of falling behind anyone who is already Paragon. If your sole concern is preventing anyone lower than you from making any progress, your focus is misplaced.
Comments
Based on your feedback, I expect we're not going to be able to reach much of a consensus.
I was literally just trying to work with your input to construct models with which to asses claims and stuff. I have a background in economics, accounting, project management, analysis, excel, making models, reports, etc. I can work with you or others to model, analyze, derive takeaways, and document findings for things.
I was providing my initial modeling and review, and asking for your input to adjust it to best reflect your concepts of the issue so as to then better model and review it.
But your feedback implies you see the issue as really being about controlling narrative and outcomes. And the substance of the claims referenced are merely window dressing. You're pushing personal fantasy. Mocking your perceived adversaries and trumpeting your grandeur with bold nonsense assertions wielded like a club.
Nothing wrong with that. MCOC and its community is a flexible, diverse space for people to explore the avenues that interest them. If you're feeling it, have at it. It's all good. You do you.
Years after its release, Hearthstone's Ranked was changed to "help players progress in the ladder without having to grind as much, while still making most matches fair." Battlegrounds can learn from this.
(NOTE 1: To make the review of Hearthstone's Ranked easier, I will be using MCOC Battlegrounds terms in place of the Hearthstone terms for the same things. Example: "Victory Medals" in Battlegrounds are called "Stars" in Hearthstone, so I will just call them Medals).
Also, one key difference is that Hearthstone's Ranked has also always had a "winning streak feature" that grants players a bonus Medal if they also won the previous two matches. This Win Streak bonus is only active for matches up to the completion of Platinum 1.
Hearthstone's Ranked mode launched in 2013, and in 2020 it was overhauled in part to:
"make the matchmaking experience fairer... while preserving the essentials of the core system that’s already in place"
Hearthstone's 2020 Overhaul for a "matchmaking experience fairer":
=======================================================
Medal Bonuses:
"At the start of each season, players will be awarded a Medal Bonus based on their performance the previous season(s). This Medal Bonus acts as a multiplier on the Medals you earn from each win.
For example, if you have a Medal Bonus of 5x and you win a game, you’ll get five Medals instead of one. If your winning game is a part of a win streak, you’ll get double that: 10 Medals."
(plus any other Medal bonuses)
"Upon hitting each new Tier in your climb, your Medal Bonus will be reduced by one. When playing with a Medal Bonus you’ll be matched by your matchmaking rating (MMR), meaning you’ll be matched even more precisely with players of your similar skill level when climbing."
"Every player starts with at least 2 Medal Bonus at the beginning of a season. Also, if a player misses playing for multiple seasons, the player will not lose much of their Medal Bonus.
The following is a table of the minimum Medal Bonus a player can start with at the start of a season, provided the player's best rank performance in the last season(s):"
Best rank last season.................Minimum Medal Bonus
=======================================
Bronze 3...........................................2x
Bronze 1...........................................2x
Silver 3..............................................2x
Silver 1..............................................3x
Gold 3...............................................4x
Gold 1...............................................5x
Platinum 3........................................6x
Platinum 1........................................7x
Diamond 3........................................8x
Diamond 1........................................9x
Vibranium.......................................10x
Gladiator's Circuit...........................11x
"Q: How does matchmaking work for each season?
A: There are two matchmaking pools: matchmaking by rating (aka. MMR) and by Tier.
When your Medal Bonus multiplier is bigger than 1 you are (generally) in the first matchmaking pool; when your Medal Bonus drops to 1, you are in the second pool."
"Q: Why are there two matchmaking pools?
A: Since each player starts at the bottom of the ladder at start, we want fair matches for everyone (aka. win-rate close to 50%). At that time, your progression on ladder is protected by your Medal Bonus, thus your net expected gain will be positive through the ladder. Once other players run out of Medal Bonuses, matching by rank will allow for good players, or players who want to push themselves a bit, to be able to progress to a higher rank.
In short, having two matchmaking pools helps players progress in the ladder without having to grind as much, while still making most matches fair."
"Q: If I 'tank' my MMR at certain rank floor, will I be matched with easier opponents next season because you are matchmaking by MMR at the start?
A: No, in general you won’t. At the start of the season we will recover your MMR to certain threshold if it is dropped below that value, which is based on what your rank is in the previous season. Therefore, there would be no benefits to intentionally tank your MMR."
"Q: Do you reset MMR each season?
A: No, we do not."
"Q: Will the value of my previous season’s MMR be exactly same as the new season?
A: Technically no, although the change will be very small and the “value order” will be kept (Player A whose MMR is larger than player B in the last season will still be ordered as such). Mathematically, a re-normalization process takes place at the start of each season to keep the distribution in a nice bell-shaped curve."
"Q: If I missed one season, will I lose my Medal Bonuses when I return?
A: No, you won’t."
"Q: If I missed multiple seasons, will I lose Medal Bonuses when I return?
A: Based on how long you are absent, there will be some small decay applied to your MMR. Therefore, you may (or may not) lose some Medal Bonuses."
"Q: Where do the Win Steak bonuses end?
A: Platinum 1."
We were a high prestige alliance constantly matching other high prestige alliances, sputtering to 7-5 records and never climbing. When Kabam removed the shadow element of prestige from matchmaking, we spent half a season obliterating alt accounts full of 4-stars until our war rating landed where it should’ve been all along.
This game should NEVER create a disincentive for roster growth. It’s really bad that my cavalier alt, which I abandoned almost two years ago, would have an easier time reaching platinum than my paragon account with two dozen champs that are 6r4 or 7-star.
This is one one of my alt at Conqueror. Heading into GC 🔜,
Here's an interesting question: why did Heathstone use the match system they did for so long? Is Kabam ten times smarter than Hearthstone's developers for tackling similar issues that much faster?
Spoilers: not really. Game systems evolve over time based on a number of factors, and rarely can you simply transplant them from one game to another. Chess has been using ELO for competitive purposes for longer than MCOC and Hearthstone have existed combined. Why didn't both of them simply universally implement ELO, when it obviously has a multidecade track record?
I have time in on both newer MCOC and older Hearthstone. In addition to my "thing" as a designer. So I'm bringing in some measure of context in my review of these matters.
So, depending on your knowledge of HS, I can either just jump into the middle of it if you know older HS well, or I can ease into it slowly and with added notes if you don't know older HS well. I generally do not subscribe to the notion of game systems incompatibility. To me it's more about what the goals are and considerations of how to derive them.
But I also am generally not one to cast shade on someone else's view and methods in their creative processes.
Plus, those players will get the same matchups they got earlier (since matchmaking is not progression based). Why are these weird caricatures of UC players you have built up, staying at UC if they can get to Paragon in a week?
Seatin got his f2p account to TB in a month after not playing for a few years. Don't give me some sob story about how hard it is to get a higher title. Especially if you're going to argue that titles don't represent a player's skill level. If those UCs and Cavs are so good that they'd beat Paragons with an equal roster, like has been argues, then getting Paragon would be pretty easy.
Keeping your account low to get easy matches for a few seasons only to boost your title and then spend the tokens is the smartest thing for low accounts to do.
Rosters don't move from 9-11k to 15-17K in a week or a month, however well one does on the story progression. You might get a prestige bump up because you were able to rank up a couple of champs but your broader roster (and BG deck) isn't going to change dramatically in a week or month. UCs who are at 9-11K and who you think can get to Paragon in a week will still face the same opponents in BG that they were earlier facing. They are not suddenly going to face 17k rosters. So there is really no need for them to camp.
Also, if one can get to Paragon they should. Tactically, there is no reason to stay at lower levels, especially not to hoard token. It is definitely not the smartest thing to do.
Prestige is only 5 champs so if you do the content and r4 3 champs you can easily raise your prestige drastically by doing the story content and raising your title.
Hoarding is the name of the game. If you choose to blow all your tokens in an overpriced store (which is the whole F'n argument if you've forgotten) then that's up to you. My point is that it's not hard to raise your title to lower the price if you want to be smart with your resources.
You're also ignoring the fact that hoarding for months is less of an issue of Rewards structure and more of a personal issue of keeping Players from being able to advance.
There is no system that prevents anyone from hoarding their Trophies. You're not going to stop them from doing it by beating them down in Bronze.
You've also ignored the logic presented about how that's not advantageous to do at all, and just leads to months of falling behind anyone who is already Paragon.
If your sole concern is preventing anyone lower than you from making any progress, your focus is misplaced.