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Hawkeye & Kate Bishop, how is the student so much better than the Master?

Eugene_VirtuosoEugene_Virtuoso Posts: 351 ★
in General Discussion
Hello. I recently got back to the game from a few months break. In catching up with the new champs i.e. watching videos and reading their descriptions, I'm honestly taken aback by how underwhelming Kate makes Hawkeye look. Considering he mentored her & taught her about his trick arrows, Hawkeye should be almost as good as her if not better in game. Almost never (if ever) in the history of Master and Student has the latter bested the former. For instance Batman-Robin, Green Arrow-Red Arrow (I used DC as there are very few similar Marvel examples), etc. It's just my two cents because being a fan of Hawkeye it saddens me, he is honestly average in the game and I'm forced to not rank him up at my level due to his very limited abilities. But maybe it's just me, what do you think?
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    AverageDesiAverageDesi Posts: 5,260 ★★★★★
    New blood baby
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    BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 2,283 ★★★★★
    This Kate Bishop is from a universe where her Master is Green Arrow from the Injustice games and that's why she basically does what he does instead of what Hawkeye does.
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    Sundance_2099Sundance_2099 Posts: 2,817 ★★★★★
    Because now the master has become the apprentice.
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    noclutchnoclutch Posts: 186 ★★
    Kate is a new character and has a kit that is designed to have better appeal.
    Its their decision and I dont know what other factors they consider for kit design.
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    Fire_3Fire_3 Posts: 129 ★
    Also look at Kung fu Panda. Po (student) becomes a greater warrior than Shi fu (master)
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    Eugene_VirtuosoEugene_Virtuoso Posts: 351 ★
    Thank you for taking time to share your insight.
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    Eugene_VirtuosoEugene_Virtuoso Posts: 351 ★
    I guess it's just hard to have to leave behind older champions that you may like as they have been outdated.
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    Eugene_VirtuosoEugene_Virtuoso Posts: 351 ★
    DNA3000 said:

    Eugene_Virtuoso said:

    Hello. I recently got back to the game from a few months break. In catching up with the new champs i.e. watching videos and reading their descriptions, I'm honestly taken aback by how underwhelming Kate makes Hawkeye look. Considering he mentored her & taught her about his trick arrows, Hawkeye should be almost as good as her if not better in game. Almost never (if ever) in the history of Master and Student has the latter bested the former. For instance Batman-Robin, Green Arrow-Red Arrow (I used DC as there are very few similar Marvel examples), etc. It's just my two cents because being a fan of Hawkeye it saddens me, he is honestly average in the game and I'm forced to not rank him up at my level due to his very limited abilities. But maybe it's just me, what do you think?

    The game design explanation is that newer champions tend to be created in an environment where the older champions already exist in the game and they need to be made distinct from them, and also can take advantage of newer technology that allows for more sophisticated mechanics. Newer champions are made to offer something older ones didn't. No one would make a champion deliberately worse than another because they were "supposed to be" in the comics, any more than we make champions able to defeat all other champions by a mile just because they are supposed to be that powerful in the comics. The comics serve as a guide and as inspiration, but the needs of the game come first.

    The in-game fiction explanation is that the champions are pulled from various alternate realities and from different times. The Hawkeye in the game doesn't even have to be the one that ultimately trained Kate Bishop. He isn't necessarily the same 616 Hawkeye from the comics, or the MCU Hawkeye. He's a variant specific to the Battlerealm. Furthermore, every champion in the Battlerealm is empowered by ISO-8. ISO-8 is the residue life force of a Celestial, and functions analogously to the Power Cosmic in the Marvel 616 universe. In other words, as Galactus in 616 can empower his heralds with the power cosmic, so does every champion in the Battlerealm get empowered with ISO-8, increasing their abilities in non-proportional ways. This is how the Punisher can take on Dormammu.

    For game design reason and for in-game Marvel fiction reasons, the power levels of the champions on Battlerealm are not automatically identical to or proportional to what their related entities have in the 616 universe. They are their own thing.
    Thank you especially for this very well written insight. I appreciate it a lot @DNA3000
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    Rohit_316Rohit_316 Posts: 3,386 ★★★★★
    You want Kate to be as mid as Hawkeye ? Makes no sense.
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    noclutchnoclutch Posts: 186 ★★
    Rohit_316 said:

    You want Kate to be as mid as Hawkeye ? Makes no sense.

    I think he means to say that Kate undermines Hawkeye as a attacker and his kit could have been better that it is.
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    Shake_a_QuakeShake_a_Quake Posts: 462 ★★★
    Tbh, I'm sure MCOC Hawkeye will be really happy with how Kate turned out. He quite definitely needed a successor.
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    Batman_bruce31Batman_bruce31 Posts: 210 ★★
    Just like how Anakin Skywalker is more powerful than Obi - Wan Kenobi.
    Some students are gonna surpass the masters
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    DrZolaDrZola Posts: 8,551 ★★★★★
    Just consider OGIM and Superior Iron Man. Later permutation, and the name says everything you need to know: Superior. ;)

    Dr. Zola
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    SHIELD4AGENTSHIELD4AGENT Posts: 915 ★★★★
    In this game not everything has to make sense compared to real life or in this case when compared to the marvel universe or the mcu.
    for example, out of all the #GODS in mcoc why only Herc has immortality? why not thor, odin, hela, heimdall?? herc is not even a full olympian god himself but got immortality.. the point is not everything has to make sense, they just have to be convenient.
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    Colinwhitworth69Colinwhitworth69 Posts: 7,185 ★★★★★
    Running over yourself with a snow plow doesn't help.
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    Eb0ny-O-M4wEb0ny-O-M4w Posts: 13,764 ★★★★★
    Isn't Kung Fu Panda so much better than his master as well?
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    ButtehrsButtehrs Posts: 4,781 ★★★★★
    Colinwhitworth69 said:

    Running over yourself with a snow plow doesn't help.

    I mean he WAS trying to help someone else at the time. You know, in character and everything.
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    LeatherhotheadLeatherhothead Posts: 29 ★
    Rohit_316 said:

    You want Kate to be as mid as Hawkeye ? Makes no sense.

    Fun fact. Hawkeye damage output is about the same or even better than Kate if you use him right. Utility wise ofc Kate is better plus passive coldsnap thing. My 7* awakened Hawkeye takes down rol WS within a minute and 45 hits. That's better than 85% of the champs in the game if you just look at damage output.
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    Sw0rdMasterSw0rdMaster Posts: 1,727 ★★★★
    Just look at successful athletes. Are they better than their teacher?
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    Saru2244Saru2244 Posts: 181 ★
    my main criticism is that Hawkey's real skill is that he never misses and always, really always hits. If a hero has such a distinctive feature, then it should be reflected in the game. If Hawkeye could bypass dodge fpr example, this would be cool
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    CyborgNinja135CyborgNinja135 Posts: 1,109 ★★★★
    Saru2244 said:

    my main criticism is that Hawkey's real skill is that he never misses and always, really always hits. If a hero has such a distinctive feature, then it should be reflected in the game. If Hawkeye could bypass dodge fpr example, this would be cool

    I mean he can apply a slow debuff with his heavy attack so he can bypass evade to a certain extent
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    MaiThuyneMaiThuyne Posts: 8 ★
    LOL, game just be game :))))
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    Eugene_VirtuosoEugene_Virtuoso Posts: 351 ★
    noclutch said:

    Rohit_316 said:

    You want Kate to be as mid as Hawkeye ? Makes no sense.

    I think he means to say that Kate undermines Hawkeye as a attacker and his kit could have been better that it is.
    Yes, this is the point I was trying to drive home. Like I wrote in my post, he should at least be almost as good as her in game being that he trained her.

    There is no issue with a student surpassing the master as is with some of the examples you guys have given, but in this specific case it shouldn't be that the student is so great yet the master is so average.
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