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Rank down tickets for Zemo and Kraven…

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  • Options
    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,367 ★★★★★
    AverageDesi said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    AverageDesi said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    AverageDesi said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    AngelMcNugget said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    SecondSkriller said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    AverageDesi said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    I shared it. It was on the Trello board, at least since April.

    That's still ages after the champs released. Not enough. Not to mention trello isn't as popular as forums. Least they could have done is put up a forum post since it's such a crucial bug. Or at least, you know, on the Baron Zemo rebalance post
    About a year and 4 months. When was it reported? What usually happens in these cases is people don't report them when they're useful in some way.
    Root has had issues all along the way. Rintrah, for example. It's been known that he was taking no Damage. Even people pointing out that Root is bugged when they gave it the green light.
    Listen, I empathize with the OP and I appreciate how passionate they are, but I do not agree with RDTs for bug fixes. I didn't the last times they gave them out for it, and I don't now.
    They're for major intended changes to how a Champ is supposed to perform. There isn't any evidence, other than "That's how they worked." to support that. If it was a listed ability and it changed, fair enough. That's not what we have.
    You should stop trying to argue this, they never sait Root is bugged even in your trollo board. They only mentioned Zemo by name. No one is opposing this change as long as they offer tickets for the now worse champion. What does it even matter to you, are you on some payroll what the hell?
    Root is a mechanic. Not a Champion. If it was bugged and they fixed it, they can't just give Tickets for every Champ with Root.
    Perhaps a lack of communication, sure. I don't see notes in the Patch Notes. You benefitted from a bug for some time. Take it for what it is. I don't agree with giving Tickets. I don't make their decisions, though. So it's not up to me. I'm still not going to agree with it.

    On Beta.
    Hickdog27 said:

    "You benefitted from a bug for some time. Take it for what it is. I don't agree with giving Tickets. I don't make their decisions, though. So it's not up to me. I'm still not going to agree with it."

    Just to be clear, the players are not the ones who benefitted from the bug, Kabam did. They sold an awful lot of Zemo cavs, sig stones, and rank up materials that were put in to him as a result of this "bug".

    If you're pushing the narrative that they did a Bait and Switch, that is as old as my presence on the Forum.
    This AI behaviour was explicitly stated in Kraven Deep Dive as the intended behaviour. It's not just beta
    GroundedWisdom said:

    AverageDesi said:

    GroundedWisdom said:


    On Beta.
    .

    This AI behaviour was explicitly stated as the intended behaviour on the Kraven Deep Dive as a feature
    . Nothing about preventing L3s.
    As opposed to preventing L1 and L2?
    By way of lower Combo Power Rate. Why would they indicate that it can be removed with Specials and then say you can't use them? I mean, come on now.
    If the combat power is low as to prevent L1 and L2, L3 isn't even in the picture. Because it's meant for the attacker to escape. Not once has an AI thrown the special and broken free of root till now. In facts, as said earlier, kabam explicitly said that rooted AI is meant to block and throw heavies to try to break free from the root. Now, throwing heavies does not free you from block. Then why would they that? Come on now
    This is a strange interpretation of what was said in the Deep Dive, considering it was your own example.
    Kabam's statement " AI throws heavy to break free from root" . Now, throwing heavy does nothing to remove the root. So why would kabam say that?
    What they said was it will "try" to break free from Root by using Heavies.
  • Options
    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,367 ★★★★★
    Drago_von_Drago said:

    @GroundedWisdom

    Can you answer these please? You keep quoting everyone and arguing with nonsense but aren’t answering questions to help us understand where you’re coming from.

    1. What is the “bug” here?
    2. What was the “fix” here?
    3. Where was a bug with root announced prior to the Zemo note in the trello board?
    4. Do you believe root has been “bugged” since Kraven’s release?
    5. When do you think Kabam became aware of a “bug” with the root mechanic?
    6. If your answer to 5 is any time before the April note on the trello board, please point to where it was communicated with players.

    Root is the bug. Root has been bugged for some time. Yes, it's had issues since its release, regardless of the Champs. I have no idea when they became aware. I'm not them.
  • Options
    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,367 ★★★★★
    AverageDesi said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    AverageDesi said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    AverageDesi said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    AverageDesi said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    AngelMcNugget said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    SecondSkriller said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    AverageDesi said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    I shared it. It was on the Trello board, at least since April.

    That's still ages after the champs released. Not enough. Not to mention trello isn't as popular as forums. Least they could have done is put up a forum post since it's such a crucial bug. Or at least, you know, on the Baron Zemo rebalance post
    About a year and 4 months. When was it reported? What usually happens in these cases is people don't report them when they're useful in some way.
    Root has had issues all along the way. Rintrah, for example. It's been known that he was taking no Damage. Even people pointing out that Root is bugged when they gave it the green light.
    Listen, I empathize with the OP and I appreciate how passionate they are, but I do not agree with RDTs for bug fixes. I didn't the last times they gave them out for it, and I don't now.
    They're for major intended changes to how a Champ is supposed to perform. There isn't any evidence, other than "That's how they worked." to support that. If it was a listed ability and it changed, fair enough. That's not what we have.
    You should stop trying to argue this, they never sait Root is bugged even in your trollo board. They only mentioned Zemo by name. No one is opposing this change as long as they offer tickets for the now worse champion. What does it even matter to you, are you on some payroll what the hell?
    Root is a mechanic. Not a Champion. If it was bugged and they fixed it, they can't just give Tickets for every Champ with Root.
    Perhaps a lack of communication, sure. I don't see notes in the Patch Notes. You benefitted from a bug for some time. Take it for what it is. I don't agree with giving Tickets. I don't make their decisions, though. So it's not up to me. I'm still not going to agree with it.

    On Beta.
    Hickdog27 said:

    "You benefitted from a bug for some time. Take it for what it is. I don't agree with giving Tickets. I don't make their decisions, though. So it's not up to me. I'm still not going to agree with it."

    Just to be clear, the players are not the ones who benefitted from the bug, Kabam did. They sold an awful lot of Zemo cavs, sig stones, and rank up materials that were put in to him as a result of this "bug".

    If you're pushing the narrative that they did a Bait and Switch, that is as old as my presence on the Forum.
    This AI behaviour was explicitly stated in Kraven Deep Dive as the intended behaviour. It's not just beta
    GroundedWisdom said:

    AverageDesi said:

    GroundedWisdom said:


    On Beta.
    .

    This AI behaviour was explicitly stated as the intended behaviour on the Kraven Deep Dive as a feature
    . Nothing about preventing L3s.
    As opposed to preventing L1 and L2?
    By way of lower Combo Power Rate. Why would they indicate that it can be removed with Specials and then say you can't use them? I mean, come on now.
    If the combat power is low as to prevent L1 and L2, L3 isn't even in the picture. Because it's meant for the attacker to escape. Not once has an AI thrown the special and broken free of root till now. In facts, as said earlier, kabam explicitly said that rooted AI is meant to block and throw heavies to try to break free from the root. Now, throwing heavies does not free you from block. Then why would they that? Come on now
    This is a strange interpretation of what was said in the Deep Dive, considering it was your own example.
    Kabam's statement " AI throws heavy to break free from root" . Now, throwing heavy does nothing to remove the root. So why would kabam say that?
    What they said was it will "try" to break free from Root by using Heavies.
    Why would it try to break from root by doing something that does not do that? Kabam purposely programmed the AI to do that.

    If they wanted to they could make the AI just behave normal and make it throw specials which it does not. You can clearly observe that I'm the videos if rooted AI put out by kabam themselves. They do not even 'try' to use specials which will for sure take it out of root.

    And now after the 'fix' they even have special lock icon for the AI when rooted. So why would kabam say throw specials to break root and then special lock!
    I'm going to say this again. They indicated the AI would be more apt to TRY and break free using those moves. Like a fly would try to wiggle free from a spider web, for example.
    They didn't say that was how to do it. That's conjecture.
  • Options
    DukenpukeDukenpuke Posts: 658 ★★★
    BeastDad said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    I would love to hear a valid argument for why they would not be issued.

    Something tells me you have a pretty subjective view of what is considered "valid".
    My view is based on facts and how to conduct business dealings in fair and just manner.

    Subjective? Not really.
    To be clear, I'm not affected by this bug. I don't have a ranked Zemo or Kraven (or Spot, Spidey Supreme, or Sandman). I personally think they should issue rank down tickets, but I also think there are plenty of valid reasons why they shouldn't.
    I have them all, and use Zemo a ton so this issue affects me greatly. It is beyond clear that rank down tickets are warranted, and the clear and obvious right thing to do given the circumstances.

    Rank down tickets simply give back the resources that someone already spent, they are not some weird perk that gives someone added value they did not earn. A massive change was made silently, the least that could be done is to make it right.
    ...and like I said, I think they should issue rank down tickets. It is very similar to the Mole Man situation from last year.

    My only concern was that you claimed that you have yet to see a valid argument against doing so, and I took issue with that. There are plenty of valid arguments on both sides.
  • Options
    BeastDadBeastDad Posts: 1,549 ★★★★★
    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    I would love to hear a valid argument for why they would not be issued.

    Something tells me you have a pretty subjective view of what is considered "valid".
    My view is based on facts and how to conduct business dealings in fair and just manner.

    Subjective? Not really.
    To be clear, I'm not affected by this bug. I don't have a ranked Zemo or Kraven (or Spot, Spidey Supreme, or Sandman). I personally think they should issue rank down tickets, but I also think there are plenty of valid reasons why they shouldn't.
    I have them all, and use Zemo a ton so this issue affects me greatly. It is beyond clear that rank down tickets are warranted, and the clear and obvious right thing to do given the circumstances.

    Rank down tickets simply give back the resources that someone already spent, they are not some weird perk that gives someone added value they did not earn. A massive change was made silently, the least that could be done is to make it right.
    ...and like I said, I think they should issue rank down tickets. It is very similar to the Mole Man situation from last year.

    My only concern was that you claimed that you have yet to see a valid argument against doing so, and I took issue with that. There are plenty of valid arguments on both sides.
    You may have taken issue with it, but you sure didn't disprove it. I don't see a single justifiable reason to not send out rank tickets.

    And the issue is more similar to the She Hulk maneuver from a few years back. But if you want to use Mole Man that works too, Kabam understood rank down tickets were 100% justified in that instance as well.
  • Options
    DukenpukeDukenpuke Posts: 658 ★★★
    Drago_von_Drago said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    I would love to hear a valid argument for why they would not be issued.

    Something tells me you have a pretty subjective view of what is considered "valid".
    My view is based on facts and how to conduct business dealings in fair and just manner.

    Subjective? Not really.
    To be clear, I'm not affected by this bug. I don't have a ranked Zemo or Kraven (or Spot, Spidey Supreme, or Sandman). I personally think they should issue rank down tickets, but I also think there are plenty of valid reasons why they shouldn't.
    I have them all, and use Zemo a ton so this issue affects me greatly. It is beyond clear that rank down tickets are warranted, and the clear and obvious right thing to do given the circumstances.

    Rank down tickets simply give back the resources that someone already spent, they are not some weird perk that gives someone added value they did not earn. A massive change was made silently, the least that could be done is to make it right.
    ...and like I said, I think they should issue rank down tickets. It is very similar to the Mole Man situation from last year.

    My only concern was that you claimed that you have yet to see a valid argument against doing so, and I took issue with that. There are plenty of valid arguments on both sides.
    Can you try to articulate plenty of valid arguments for not issuing RDTs? I’m not trying to be argumentative. Some of us are genuinely lost as to what we are missing here so if there are plenty of valid arguments, even if you don’t agree with them, please try to outline them.
    1. There was never anything in any description that said rooted champs should have been special locked at any level. Fixing a "broken" mechanic to align with the description shouldn't warrant rank down tickets.

    2. Fixing this bug does not break Zemo. It only removes an unintended functionality. Zemo is still a very good champion without the indefinite special lock mechanic. As KarateMike said the other day, "if you're playing zemo with the infinite root strategy you're playing him wrong."

    3. Just like they did with issuing Mole Man rdts, issuing rdts for this situation sets a dangerous precedent for future bug fixes. The next time there's a bug fix that affects a very small percentage of the player base, those players are going to demand rdts as well, and before you know it rdts will become a regular occurrence. This was a valid argument against the Mole Man rdts as well.

    Because they issued the rdts for Mole Man, there's a precedent for issuing rdts for Zemo and Kraven in a similar situation that I think Kabam would be mistaken to overlook. However, there are still valid arguments against it.
  • Options
    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,367 ★★★★★
    BigBlueOx said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    AverageDesi said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    AverageDesi said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    AverageDesi said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    AverageDesi said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    AngelMcNugget said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    SecondSkriller said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    AverageDesi said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    I shared it. It was on the Trello board, at least since April.

    That's still ages after the champs released. Not enough. Not to mention trello isn't as popular as forums. Least they could have done is put up a forum post since it's such a crucial bug. Or at least, you know, on the Baron Zemo rebalance post
    About a year and 4 months. When was it reported? What usually happens in these cases is people don't report them when they're useful in some way.
    Root has had issues all along the way. Rintrah, for example. It's been known that he was taking no Damage. Even people pointing out that Root is bugged when they gave it the green light.
    Listen, I empathize with the OP and I appreciate how passionate they are, but I do not agree with RDTs for bug fixes. I didn't the last times they gave them out for it, and I don't now.
    They're for major intended changes to how a Champ is supposed to perform. There isn't any evidence, other than "That's how they worked." to support that. If it was a listed ability and it changed, fair enough. That's not what we have.
    You should stop trying to argue this, they never sait Root is bugged even in your trollo board. They only mentioned Zemo by name. No one is opposing this change as long as they offer tickets for the now worse champion. What does it even matter to you, are you on some payroll what the hell?
    Root is a mechanic. Not a Champion. If it was bugged and they fixed it, they can't just give Tickets for every Champ with Root.
    Perhaps a lack of communication, sure. I don't see notes in the Patch Notes. You benefitted from a bug for some time. Take it for what it is. I don't agree with giving Tickets. I don't make their decisions, though. So it's not up to me. I'm still not going to agree with it.

    On Beta.
    Hickdog27 said:

    "You benefitted from a bug for some time. Take it for what it is. I don't agree with giving Tickets. I don't make their decisions, though. So it's not up to me. I'm still not going to agree with it."

    Just to be clear, the players are not the ones who benefitted from the bug, Kabam did. They sold an awful lot of Zemo cavs, sig stones, and rank up materials that were put in to him as a result of this "bug".

    If you're pushing the narrative that they did a Bait and Switch, that is as old as my presence on the Forum.
    This AI behaviour was explicitly stated in Kraven Deep Dive as the intended behaviour. It's not just beta
    GroundedWisdom said:

    AverageDesi said:

    GroundedWisdom said:


    On Beta.
    .

    This AI behaviour was explicitly stated as the intended behaviour on the Kraven Deep Dive as a feature
    . Nothing about preventing L3s.
    As opposed to preventing L1 and L2?
    By way of lower Combo Power Rate. Why would they indicate that it can be removed with Specials and then say you can't use them? I mean, come on now.
    If the combat power is low as to prevent L1 and L2, L3 isn't even in the picture. Because it's meant for the attacker to escape. Not once has an AI thrown the special and broken free of root till now. In facts, as said earlier, kabam explicitly said that rooted AI is meant to block and throw heavies to try to break free from the root. Now, throwing heavies does not free you from block. Then why would they that? Come on now
    This is a strange interpretation of what was said in the Deep Dive, considering it was your own example.
    Kabam's statement " AI throws heavy to break free from root" . Now, throwing heavy does nothing to remove the root. So why would kabam say that?
    What they said was it will "try" to break free from Root by using Heavies.
    Why would it try to break from root by doing something that does not do that? Kabam purposely programmed the AI to do that.

    If they wanted to they could make the AI just behave normal and make it throw specials which it does not. You can clearly observe that I'm the videos if rooted AI put out by kabam themselves. They do not even 'try' to use specials which will for sure take it out of root.

    And now after the 'fix' they even have special lock icon for the AI when rooted. So why would kabam say throw specials to break root and then special lock!
    I'm going to say this again. They indicated the AI would be more apt to TRY and break free using those moves. Like a fly would try to wiggle free from a spider web, for example.
    They didn't say that was how to do it. That's conjecture.
    Man hanging your whole position around the word “try”…

    Do “try” and go and use these champs in their current form and then compare that to the marketing materials.

    Then please “try” and find a wide spread and clear statement from Kabam that this was communicated as a bug to the player base.

    Then I’d love to hear you “try” again to defend this perspective.
    I'm quite sure I acknowledged there was a lack of communication.
    I don't support the request for RDTs.
  • Options
    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,367 ★★★★★
    SecondSkriller said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BigBlueOx said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    AverageDesi said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    AverageDesi said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    AverageDesi said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    AverageDesi said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    AngelMcNugget said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    SecondSkriller said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    AverageDesi said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    I shared it. It was on the Trello board, at least since April.

    That's still ages after the champs released. Not enough. Not to mention trello isn't as popular as forums. Least they could have done is put up a forum post since it's such a crucial bug. Or at least, you know, on the Baron Zemo rebalance post
    About a year and 4 months. When was it reported? What usually happens in these cases is people don't report them when they're useful in some way.
    Root has had issues all along the way. Rintrah, for example. It's been known that he was taking no Damage. Even people pointing out that Root is bugged when they gave it the green light.
    Listen, I empathize with the OP and I appreciate how passionate they are, but I do not agree with RDTs for bug fixes. I didn't the last times they gave them out for it, and I don't now.
    They're for major intended changes to how a Champ is supposed to perform. There isn't any evidence, other than "That's how they worked." to support that. If it was a listed ability and it changed, fair enough. That's not what we have.
    You should stop trying to argue this, they never sait Root is bugged even in your trollo board. They only mentioned Zemo by name. No one is opposing this change as long as they offer tickets for the now worse champion. What does it even matter to you, are you on some payroll what the hell?
    Root is a mechanic. Not a Champion. If it was bugged and they fixed it, they can't just give Tickets for every Champ with Root.
    Perhaps a lack of communication, sure. I don't see notes in the Patch Notes. You benefitted from a bug for some time. Take it for what it is. I don't agree with giving Tickets. I don't make their decisions, though. So it's not up to me. I'm still not going to agree with it.

    On Beta.
    Hickdog27 said:

    "You benefitted from a bug for some time. Take it for what it is. I don't agree with giving Tickets. I don't make their decisions, though. So it's not up to me. I'm still not going to agree with it."

    Just to be clear, the players are not the ones who benefitted from the bug, Kabam did. They sold an awful lot of Zemo cavs, sig stones, and rank up materials that were put in to him as a result of this "bug".

    If you're pushing the narrative that they did a Bait and Switch, that is as old as my presence on the Forum.
    This AI behaviour was explicitly stated in Kraven Deep Dive as the intended behaviour. It's not just beta
    GroundedWisdom said:

    AverageDesi said:

    GroundedWisdom said:


    On Beta.
    .

    This AI behaviour was explicitly stated as the intended behaviour on the Kraven Deep Dive as a feature
    . Nothing about preventing L3s.
    As opposed to preventing L1 and L2?
    By way of lower Combo Power Rate. Why would they indicate that it can be removed with Specials and then say you can't use them? I mean, come on now.
    If the combat power is low as to prevent L1 and L2, L3 isn't even in the picture. Because it's meant for the attacker to escape. Not once has an AI thrown the special and broken free of root till now. In facts, as said earlier, kabam explicitly said that rooted AI is meant to block and throw heavies to try to break free from the root. Now, throwing heavies does not free you from block. Then why would they that? Come on now
    This is a strange interpretation of what was said in the Deep Dive, considering it was your own example.
    Kabam's statement " AI throws heavy to break free from root" . Now, throwing heavy does nothing to remove the root. So why would kabam say that?
    What they said was it will "try" to break free from Root by using Heavies.
    Why would it try to break from root by doing something that does not do that? Kabam purposely programmed the AI to do that.

    If they wanted to they could make the AI just behave normal and make it throw specials which it does not. You can clearly observe that I'm the videos if rooted AI put out by kabam themselves. They do not even 'try' to use specials which will for sure take it out of root.

    And now after the 'fix' they even have special lock icon for the AI when rooted. So why would kabam say throw specials to break root and then special lock!
    I'm going to say this again. They indicated the AI would be more apt to TRY and break free using those moves. Like a fly would try to wiggle free from a spider web, for example.
    They didn't say that was how to do it. That's conjecture.
    Man hanging your whole position around the word “try”…

    Do “try” and go and use these champs in their current form and then compare that to the marketing materials.

    Then please “try” and find a wide spread and clear statement from Kabam that this was communicated as a bug to the player base.

    Then I’d love to hear you “try” again to defend this perspective.
    I'm quite sure I acknowledged there was a lack of communication.
    I don't support the request for RDTs.
    So you just don’t want others to be happy then? That’s your only argument, since you just admitted that you acknowledge the lack of communication.
    I outlined the reasons I don't support Tickets being given in these cases. It really has nothing to do with happiness. I'm not evil. I don't take joy in others being unhappy. I'm not a malicious person. That doesn't mean I agree with things I believe are unhealthy just because it will make people happy.
  • Options
    DukenpukeDukenpuke Posts: 658 ★★★
    AngelMcNugget said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    Drago_von_Drago said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    I would love to hear a valid argument for why they would not be issued.

    Something tells me you have a pretty subjective view of what is considered "valid".
    My view is based on facts and how to conduct business dealings in fair and just manner.

    Subjective? Not really.
    To be clear, I'm not affected by this bug. I don't have a ranked Zemo or Kraven (or Spot, Spidey Supreme, or Sandman). I personally think they should issue rank down tickets, but I also think there are plenty of valid reasons why they shouldn't.
    I have them all, and use Zemo a ton so this issue affects me greatly. It is beyond clear that rank down tickets are warranted, and the clear and obvious right thing to do given the circumstances.

    Rank down tickets simply give back the resources that someone already spent, they are not some weird perk that gives someone added value they did not earn. A massive change was made silently, the least that could be done is to make it right.
    ...and like I said, I think they should issue rank down tickets. It is very similar to the Mole Man situation from last year.

    My only concern was that you claimed that you have yet to see a valid argument against doing so, and I took issue with that. There are plenty of valid arguments on both sides.
    Can you try to articulate plenty of valid arguments for not issuing RDTs? I’m not trying to be argumentative. Some of us are genuinely lost as to what we are missing here so if there are plenty of valid arguments, even if you don’t agree with them, please try to outline them.
    1. There was never anything in any description that said rooted champs should have been special locked at any level. Fixing a "broken" mechanic to align with the description shouldn't warrant rank down tickets.

    2. Fixing this bug does not break Zemo

    3. Just like they did with issuing Mole Man rdts, issuing rdts for this situation sets a dangerous precedent for future bug fixes
    1. There still isn't. The first 3 pages of this thread are dedicated to exactly what you're saying. Currently, the Root description does not align with the Special Lock mechanic that Root currently has. The only thing that changed was the Defender's ability to throw the Sp3, which has never been in the Root description.

    2. It's not about the quality of the champion

    3. Correct, and if a situation like this happens again, RDT's will again be warranted. Kabam can take that as inspiration to not make these mistakes a second time.

    I would highly recommend anyone who isn't fully aware to read through this thread. It's a very complex issue that hasn't been fully broken down in KT1 or Prof Hoff's videos, which is where I imagine a lot of these views are coming from.
    Again, just because you disagree doesn't mean they're not valid arguments.
  • Options
    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,367 ★★★★★
    I had the same stance then. Sorry you disagree with me, but making things personal isn't going to help your case.
    I've made my points. At this point, it's devolving. Good luck.
  • Options
    DukenpukeDukenpuke Posts: 658 ★★★
    BeastDad said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    I would love to hear a valid argument for why they would not be issued.

    Something tells me you have a pretty subjective view of what is considered "valid".
    My view is based on facts and how to conduct business dealings in fair and just manner.

    Subjective? Not really.
    To be clear, I'm not affected by this bug. I don't have a ranked Zemo or Kraven (or Spot, Spidey Supreme, or Sandman). I personally think they should issue rank down tickets, but I also think there are plenty of valid reasons why they shouldn't.
    I have them all, and use Zemo a ton so this issue affects me greatly. It is beyond clear that rank down tickets are warranted, and the clear and obvious right thing to do given the circumstances.

    Rank down tickets simply give back the resources that someone already spent, they are not some weird perk that gives someone added value they did not earn. A massive change was made silently, the least that could be done is to make it right.
    ...and like I said, I think they should issue rank down tickets. It is very similar to the Mole Man situation from last year.

    My only concern was that you claimed that you have yet to see a valid argument against doing so, and I took issue with that. There are plenty of valid arguments on both sides.
    You may have taken issue with it, but you sure didn't disprove it. I don't see a single justifiable reason to not send out rank tickets.

    And the issue is more similar to the She Hulk maneuver from a few years back. But if you want to use Mole Man that works too, Kabam understood rank down tickets were 100% justified in that instance as well.
    Also "valid" and "justified" are not the same thing.
  • Options
    BigBlueOxBigBlueOx Posts: 1,634 ★★★★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    I had the same stance then. Sorry you disagree with me, but making things personal isn't going to help your case.
    I've made my points. At this point, it's devolving. Good luck.

    I’m sorry you feel this is a personal comment, not my intent, and I don’t believe it is. Just pointing out the singular stance that is the root of your argument and the track record that stance has.
  • Options
    Drago_von_DragoDrago_von_Drago Posts: 781 ★★★★
    Going into the weekend with the mystery unsolved…
  • Options
    Drago_von_DragoDrago_von_Drago Posts: 781 ★★★★
    AngelMcNugget said:

    Drago_von_Drago said:

    Going into the weekend with the mystery unsolved…

    Honestly seems like Kabam intends to comment on this once they fix the bigger issues and figure out what to do. They haven't yet closed this thread and Miike just merged another thread into this one earlier. With creators making videos on this, I doubt they'll be able to just ignore it.
    I’m sure you’re right. I’m guessing all communication has to go through him with Jax out and he’s certainly busy with everything else going on.
  • Options
    BeastDadBeastDad Posts: 1,549 ★★★★★
    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    I would love to hear a valid argument for why they would not be issued.

    Something tells me you have a pretty subjective view of what is considered "valid".
    My view is based on facts and how to conduct business dealings in fair and just manner.

    Subjective? Not really.
    To be clear, I'm not affected by this bug. I don't have a ranked Zemo or Kraven (or Spot, Spidey Supreme, or Sandman). I personally think they should issue rank down tickets, but I also think there are plenty of valid reasons why they shouldn't.
    I have them all, and use Zemo a ton so this issue affects me greatly. It is beyond clear that rank down tickets are warranted, and the clear and obvious right thing to do given the circumstances.

    Rank down tickets simply give back the resources that someone already spent, they are not some weird perk that gives someone added value they did not earn. A massive change was made silently, the least that could be done is to make it right.
    ...and like I said, I think they should issue rank down tickets. It is very similar to the Mole Man situation from last year.

    My only concern was that you claimed that you have yet to see a valid argument against doing so, and I took issue with that. There are plenty of valid arguments on both sides.
    You may have taken issue with it, but you sure didn't disprove it. I don't see a single justifiable reason to not send out rank tickets.

    And the issue is more similar to the She Hulk maneuver from a few years back. But if you want to use Mole Man that works too, Kabam understood rank down tickets were 100% justified in that instance as well.
    Also "valid" and "justified" are not the same thing.
    But basic rational thought certainly covers both.
  • Options
    VaniteliaVanitelia Posts: 367 ★★★
    Dukenpuke said:

    Drago_von_Drago said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    I would love to hear a valid argument for why they would not be issued.

    Something tells me you have a pretty subjective view of what is considered "valid".
    My view is based on facts and how to conduct business dealings in fair and just manner.

    Subjective? Not really.
    To be clear, I'm not affected by this bug. I don't have a ranked Zemo or Kraven (or Spot, Spidey Supreme, or Sandman). I personally think they should issue rank down tickets, but I also think there are plenty of valid reasons why they shouldn't.
    I have them all, and use Zemo a ton so this issue affects me greatly. It is beyond clear that rank down tickets are warranted, and the clear and obvious right thing to do given the circumstances.

    Rank down tickets simply give back the resources that someone already spent, they are not some weird perk that gives someone added value they did not earn. A massive change was made silently, the least that could be done is to make it right.
    ...and like I said, I think they should issue rank down tickets. It is very similar to the Mole Man situation from last year.

    My only concern was that you claimed that you have yet to see a valid argument against doing so, and I took issue with that. There are plenty of valid arguments on both sides.
    Can you try to articulate plenty of valid arguments for not issuing RDTs? I’m not trying to be argumentative. Some of us are genuinely lost as to what we are missing here so if there are plenty of valid arguments, even if you don’t agree with them, please try to outline them.
    1. There was never anything in any description that said rooted champs should have been special locked at any level. Fixing a "broken" mechanic to align with the description shouldn't warrant rank down tickets.

    2. Fixing this bug does not break Zemo. It only removes an unintended functionality. Zemo is still a very good champion without the indefinite special lock mechanic. As KarateMike said the other day, "if you're playing zemo with the infinite root strategy you're playing him wrong."

    3. Just like they did with issuing Mole Man rdts, issuing rdts for this situation sets a dangerous precedent for future bug fixes. The next time there's a bug fix that affects a very small percentage of the player base, those players are going to demand rdts as well, and before you know it rdts will become a regular occurrence. This was a valid argument against the Mole Man rdts as well.

    Because they issued the rdts for Mole Man, there's a precedent for issuing rdts for Zemo and Kraven in a similar situation that I think Kabam would be mistaken to overlook. However, there are still valid arguments against it.
    I can get behind #2, but you're wrong on a couple of things.

    1.The ability section never mentioned special locks. They added that to the root mechanic which has now impacted multiple champs that have root as their core mechanic.
    2. Zemo isn't useless now, he needs to be played differently. He is now much more of a matchup champ than he used to be.
    3. They should take some time to test champs and their core mechanic interactions prior to release. If they miss something, the CCPs hopefully catch it. If that doesn't happen, then they should catch it by the time of their rebalance. If they still don't catch it, then no changes to the mechanic or character should occur. What's the purpose of data over 6 months if it doesn't prevent these issues from happening?
  • Options
    DukenpukeDukenpuke Posts: 658 ★★★
    Vanitelia said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    Drago_von_Drago said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    Dukenpuke said:

    BeastDad said:

    I would love to hear a valid argument for why they would not be issued.

    Something tells me you have a pretty subjective view of what is considered "valid".
    My view is based on facts and how to conduct business dealings in fair and just manner.

    Subjective? Not really.
    To be clear, I'm not affected by this bug. I don't have a ranked Zemo or Kraven (or Spot, Spidey Supreme, or Sandman). I personally think they should issue rank down tickets, but I also think there are plenty of valid reasons why they shouldn't.
    I have them all, and use Zemo a ton so this issue affects me greatly. It is beyond clear that rank down tickets are warranted, and the clear and obvious right thing to do given the circumstances.

    Rank down tickets simply give back the resources that someone already spent, they are not some weird perk that gives someone added value they did not earn. A massive change was made silently, the least that could be done is to make it right.
    ...and like I said, I think they should issue rank down tickets. It is very similar to the Mole Man situation from last year.

    My only concern was that you claimed that you have yet to see a valid argument against doing so, and I took issue with that. There are plenty of valid arguments on both sides.
    Can you try to articulate plenty of valid arguments for not issuing RDTs? I’m not trying to be argumentative. Some of us are genuinely lost as to what we are missing here so if there are plenty of valid arguments, even if you don’t agree with them, please try to outline them.
    1. There was never anything in any description that said rooted champs should have been special locked at any level. Fixing a "broken" mechanic to align with the description shouldn't warrant rank down tickets.

    2. Fixing this bug does not break Zemo. It only removes an unintended functionality. Zemo is still a very good champion without the indefinite special lock mechanic. As KarateMike said the other day, "if you're playing zemo with the infinite root strategy you're playing him wrong."

    3. Just like they did with issuing Mole Man rdts, issuing rdts for this situation sets a dangerous precedent for future bug fixes. The next time there's a bug fix that affects a very small percentage of the player base, those players are going to demand rdts as well, and before you know it rdts will become a regular occurrence. This was a valid argument against the Mole Man rdts as well.

    Because they issued the rdts for Mole Man, there's a precedent for issuing rdts for Zemo and Kraven in a similar situation that I think Kabam would be mistaken to overlook. However, there are still valid arguments against it.
    I can get behind #2, but you're wrong on a couple of things.

    1.The ability section never mentioned special locks. They added that to the root mechanic which has now impacted multiple champs that have root as their core mechanic.
    2. Zemo isn't useless now, he needs to be played differently. He is now much more of a matchup champ than he used to be.
    3. They should take some time to test champs and their core mechanic interactions prior to release. If they miss something, the CCPs hopefully catch it. If that doesn't happen, then they should catch it by the time of their rebalance. If they still don't catch it, then no changes to the mechanic or character should occur. What's the purpose of data over 6 months if it doesn't prevent these issues from happening?
    Again, I don't necessarily disagree, which is why I think they should give out rdts. There is certainly precedent for doing so. So while rdt's may be "justified" in this case, there are certainly "valid" arguments to be made against them.

    One place where I disagree is that I don't think most people need to play Zemo differently. I think most people already play him without the indefinite root strategy and are more than satisfied with him.
This discussion has been closed.