Buff Buckets!

Rookiie

Hello forums,

If you know me, you know that I am obsessed with champion kits and balancing. It is the part of the game that I enjoy the most. I have created multiple threads to constructively discuss the launch of champs including Odin, iHulk, DDHK and Ikaris. I discovered the bug which turned DDHK into Hercules, and subsequently got him nerfed! I also managed to get Ikaris nerfed too! Maybe this isn’t a good idea after all …

But seriously, I wanted to create a comprehensive thread where we can discuss outdated champions in a constructive manner. I compiled all the champions that I feel need a buff (96), and placed them into buckets which differ by the type of buff that the champion should receive (6) according to me. Without further ado:

Bucket A - 34 Champs in dire need of a full rework:
Abomination
Beast
Black Bolt
Black Panther Civil War
Black Widow
Captain America
Captain America WWII
Captain Marvel Classic
Cyclops Blue Team
Cyclops New Xavier School
Daredevil Classic
Doctor Strange
Drax
Elektra
Groot
Iron Fist
Iron Patriot
Loki
Moon Knight
Ms Marvel
Ms Marvel Kamala Khan
Night Crawler
Phoenix
Punisher
Rhino
Ronan
Sentry
Spiderman Symbiote
Star-Lord
Superior Iron Man
Thor
Vision Age of Ultron
Winter Soldier
Wolverine X-23

Bucket B - 23 Champs who need a moderate rework or a set of substantial tune-ups to their offensive abilities:
Agent Venom
Air Walker
Ant-Man
Cable
Carnage
Captain Britain
Civil Warrior
Daredevil Hell’s Kitchen
Deadpool X-Force
Dormammu
Ghost Rider
Gwenpool
Hulk Ragnarok
Invisible Woman
Kraven
Mephisto
Old Man Logan
Psylocke
Purgatory
Sabretooth
Thor Jane Faster
Venom the Duck
Wolverine

Bucket C - 13 Champs on the verge of greatness, who need very slight tune-ups to their offensive abilities:
Doctor Octopus
Blade
Hawkeye
Medusa
Misty Knight
Night Thrasher
Peni Parker
Red Goblin
Rogue
Sandman
Spiderman
Spiderman Miles Morales
Thor Ragnarok

Bucket D - 2 Champs who need very slight tune-ups to their defensive abilities:
Cull Obsidian
Spiderman Supreme

Bucket E - 16 Defensive stalwarts who could use a bit more sauce on offense, like Red Skull:
Annihilus
Darkhawk
Green Goblin
Heimdall
Iron Man Infinity War
Korg
MODOK
Man-thing
Mangog
Mister Sinister
Nova
Psycho Man
Super Skrull
Taskmaster
Yellowjacket
Yondu

Bucket F - 8 Trophy champs who need a full rework when all is said and done:
Deadpool
Goldpool
Iron Fist Immortal
Kang
Thanos
Ultron Classic
Unstoppable Colossus
Vision

I hope we can use this thread as our own reference point in relation to Kabam’s balance updates, since commenting on Champion Spotlights is no longer a thing.

Alright forums, fire away!

Pikolu

I'm curious why you think peni Parker needs a slight tuneup to her offensive abilities. She literally kills almost anyone not immune to incinerate in 3-4 bars of power for BGs healthpools if they're of equal ranking. I use mine all the time and she absolutely destroys in all sorts of content. She is very reliable and consistent and I personally don't think she needs a buff at all.

Rookiie

Pikolu said:

I'm curious why you think peni Parker needs a slight tuneup to her offensive abilities. She literally kills almost anyone not immune to incinerate in 3-4 bars of power for BGs healthpools if they're of equal ranking. I use mine all the time and she absolutely destroys in all sorts of content. She is very reliable and consistent and I personally don't think she needs a buff at all.

Hey @Pikolu! Basically, in non-ideal match-ups, I feel that her offensive power rate is below average. I’m not sure if others feel the same way, but with larger healthpools playing her can be a real bore. Damage-wise she’s great, I just wish her ramp-up could be slightly faster (5% increase in offensive combat power rate).

Shadowstrike

Technically Punisher should be in bucket F as a trophy champion, because like Immortal Iron Fist, he can only be acquired through very specific means.

Rookiie

Shadowstrike said:

Technically Punisher should be in bucket F as a trophy champion, because like Immortal Iron Fist, he can only be acquired through very specific means.

You’re right! My bad and thanks for pointing it out

Usagicassidy

Perhaps it's just me, but I would also put Psylocke in bucket A. Heck, I'd prefer she get the FULL overhaul treatment like Iron Man with an updated cosmetic and everything.

She's hands down one of the coolest characters in the game (read: cool character not cool IN game) but is essentially relegated to everyone's champion graveyard.

Rookiie

Usagicassidy said:

Perhaps it's just me, but I would also put Psylocke in bucket A. Heck, I'd prefer she get the FULL overhaul treatment like Iron Man with an updated cosmetic and everything.

She's hands down one of the coolest characters in the game (read: cool character not cool IN game) but is essentially relegated to everyone's champion graveyard.

So, I would agree with you, except she’s got that really cool Power Control mechanic and which is super amplified by that Horseman of Apocalypse synergy - that’s the only reason I placed her in Bucket B, but I see the case for putting her in A!

Regarding the. updated cosmetics, I get the feeling that it’s only going to be given to certain champs in Bucket A - the ‘main / classic’ ones if that makes sense - like the OG Avengers. Wouldn’t mind Psylocke getting that treatment though!

Pikolu

Rookiie said:

Pikolu said:

I'm curious why you think peni Parker needs a slight tuneup to her offensive abilities. She literally kills almost anyone not immune to incinerate in 3-4 bars of power for BGs healthpools if they're of equal ranking. I use mine all the time and she absolutely destroys in all sorts of content. She is very reliable and consistent and I personally don't think she needs a buff at all.

Hey Pikolu! Basically, in non-ideal match-ups, I feel that her offensive power rate is below average. I’m not sure if others feel the same way, but with larger healthpools playing her can be a real bore. Damage-wise she’s great, I just wish her ramp-up could be slightly faster (5% increase in offensive combat power rate).

Peni gains power every time she parries with her sync-shield active. Also if you're playing her as a 7* or as a r5 6*, then her combat power rate is almost too high. The way I play her is I use my sp1 as soon as they have 1 bar of power, then I build to just under 2 bars of power and use my sp1 again right as the opponent is over a bar of power and then you can get to your sp2 within 2 combos thanks to the sync-shield. If my CPR was higher, it would be much more stressful to play her due to not being able to parry because that would push you too high, or you'd have to throw your sp1 earlier and risk losing those extra charges before you get to your sp2 (stingy AI and all of that fun stuff)

Wicket329

Usagicassidy said:

Perhaps it's just me, but I would also put Psylocke in bucket A. Heck, I'd prefer she get the FULL overhaul treatment like Iron Man with an updated cosmetic and everything.

She's hands down one of the coolest characters in the game (read: cool character not cool IN game) but is essentially relegated to everyone's champion graveyard.

HARD disagree (on the first paragraph, we’re good on the second one). Psylocke’s kit has some wild stuff in it, she only really needs two things. 1) combat power rate to not be as nerfed as it is, and 2) put her horseman synergy into her base kit.

She has very good damage output when made into a Horseman. Problem is that making her one for more than like… two fights in a quest requires both Apoc and Cable/Kang/Mr. Sinister. So you’ve got three team slots already dedicated to just making one champ playable.

Pikolu

Pikolu said:

Rookiie said:

Pikolu said:

I'm curious why you think peni Parker needs a slight tuneup to her offensive abilities. She literally kills almost anyone not immune to incinerate in 3-4 bars of power for BGs healthpools if they're of equal ranking. I use mine all the time and she absolutely destroys in all sorts of content. She is very reliable and consistent and I personally don't think she needs a buff at all.

Hey Pikolu! Basically, in non-ideal match-ups, I feel that her offensive power rate is below average. I’m not sure if others feel the same way, but with larger healthpools playing her can be a real bore. Damage-wise she’s great, I just wish her ramp-up could be slightly faster (5% increase in offensive combat power rate).

Peni gains power every time she parries with her sync-shield active. Also if you're playing her as a 7* or as a r5 6*, then her combat power rate is almost too high. The way I play her is I use my sp1 as soon as they have 1 bar of power, then I build to just under 2 bars of power and use my sp1 again right as the opponent is over a bar of power and then you can get to your sp2 within 2 combos thanks to the sync-shield. If my CPR was higher, it would be much more stressful to play her due to not being able to parry because that would push you too high, or you'd have to throw your sp1 earlier and risk losing those extra charges before you get to your sp2 (stingy AI and all of that fun stuff)

To add on to this, this was 4 bars of power with peni Parker in damage. That is enough power to kill anyone in BGs, which is good enough for me.

Usagicassidy

Rookiie said:

Usagicassidy said:

Perhaps it's just me, but I would also put Psylocke in bucket A. Heck, I'd prefer she get the FULL overhaul treatment like Iron Man with an updated cosmetic and everything.

She's hands down one of the coolest characters in the game (read: cool character not cool IN game) but is essentially relegated to everyone's champion graveyard.

So, I would agree with you, except she’s got that really cool Power Control mechanic and which is super amplified by that Horseman of Apocalypse synergy - that’s the only reason I placed her in Bucket B, but I see the case for putting her in A!

Regarding the. updated cosmetics, I get the feeling that it’s only going to be given to certain champs in Bucket A - the ‘main / classic’ ones if that makes sense - like the OG Avengers. Wouldn’t mind Psylocke getting that treatment though!

Yeah perhaps I'm mostly bitter with the X-Men in the game (especially the earliest additions) got whatever they were wearing in the comics at the time and I really just with for a character as iconic as Psylocke we got her iconic look.

Instead, we get what seems like a comination of the Wood and Bunn era outfits, each which only lasted a year, and somehow the in-game design though combining elements of both looks worse than either:



When she really needs to just be in this anyways:

Greed_Exodus

They should honestly take a few months to just rework all the duds, I would rather have that than new versions of iron man or spider man they keep pumping out like braindead goblins

ThatGuyYouSaw235

get Ant-Man out of this list man

Hendross

If this is a list of punching power, it's possible. However, it lacks consideration for utility and synergies

Rookiie

Hendross said:

If this is a list of punching power, it's possible. However, it lacks consideration for utility and synergies

See that’s the thing. I’m not a fan of champs being OP through synergies alone. There’s a fine balance between punching power, utility and synergies, and punching power is always going to hold the most weight no matter how much we look at it, with utility a close second and synergies much further behind.

Take Cable for example, he’s a POWERHOUSE with that Apoc synergy, but I can’t use him alone as a champ, that’s not necessarily good design.

DDHK is packed with utility, but his damage loop is woeful, and needs synergies to elevate him to become a good champ, but those are almost always Skill champs, and I can’t pack a full team of Skill champs everywhere I go.

I’m not saying punching power alone is enough, but it is the most important part of the baseline. Champions should be able to finish non-ideal matchups within a certain time limit in this meta.

Wicket329

Greed_Exodus said:

They should honestly take a few months to just rework all the duds, I would rather have that than new versions of iron man or spider man they keep pumping out like braindead goblins

But are you going to buy pre-release bundles for those reworks? Would you spend actual money on them? Because releasing new champions is what keeps this game profitable, so if you’re asking them to stop doing that, then you need to get the entire community to start shelling out for buffs the same way they do for new champs.

I am hopeful that as more people progress into Valiant and the 7* acquisition rate increases and more people move away from 6*s that Iron Man style buffs will become profitable, because it’ll be all about acquiring the champ as a 7*.

Rookiie

Greed_Exodus said:

They should honestly take a few months to just rework all the duds, I would rather have that than new versions of iron man or spider man they keep pumping out like braindead goblins

I think so too. Kabam is focusing too much on pumping and balancing new champions, without considering the champions that are trailing behind. The first 3 buckets alone account for 70 champs.

Rookiie

Hendross said:

If this is a list of punching power, it's possible. However, it lacks consideration for utility and synergies

There’s also another way to look at this argument. I personally think that the champs in Bucket C are packed with baseline utility, but the potency needs to be enhanced:

Doctor Octopus (increase potency and duration of inflicted debuffs)
Blade (increase potency of Danger Sense)
Medusa (increase potency and duration of Armour Breaks)
Night Thrasher (increase duration of debuffs)
Peni Parker (increase offensive combat power rate, or not as @Pikolu mentioned above, I need to test)
Rogue (increase duration of buffs)

So I do think there is consideration for utility in this sense, because it will make these champs more sustainable in this meta. Utility is closely tied to punching power in the examples given above.

CyborgNinja135

I ranked up my Sabretooth recently and he's got the potential to be really solid. Here are some suggestions.

1. The most important change imo would be to get rid of his wacky persistent charge mechanic. Make it work like Stryfe's instead. At the end of the fight, for each of Sabretooth's personal fury effects active, gain a persistent charge. Max: 30. They can also keep the cap of furies that can be converted by dashing back and idling to 15. It's not a big deal and it's kinda fun.

2. All attacks have X chance to inflict bleed, doubled on crits.

3. Move the Killmonger synergy to his base kit.

This already would make him quite solid. Not the best, but still useful in some areas. Now for some new, and hopefully interesting, abilities he could have.

1. Dashing back and idling for 1 second while Sabretooth has 15+ persistent charges or while the opponent has 10+ bleeds triggers Bloodlust for 12 seconds. Interrupting the opponent's basic, dash or heavy attacks pause bloodlust for 6 seconds. While Bloodlust is active, all bleed effects on the opponent are paused. Additionally, deal instant bleed damage on every hit (can be a small amount; something like 5% of modified attack) and gain life steal equal to the same amount (capped at 3% of missing health). I like the idea of Sabretooth being more of a brawler champion, like Abs Man, and not relying on special attacks for big damage like most mutants. Also the methods for pausing Bloodlust encourage the player to be more aggressive, like Sabretooth

2. Sabretooth is immune to all prowess effects. Whenever he would gain prowess, trigger Bloodlust for 5 seconds; this effect cannot be paused. Ability goes on cooldown for 5 seconds.

3. New ability added to his sig. Against non-Tech champions, if a bleed effect would be prevented by an immunity, apply a corresponding rupture effect instead.

This are mainly ideas I came up with while and had some free time and roughly put together some let me know what you guys think.

Ortoun

Ronan is fine as is, last thing he needs is the guillotine/hood treatment.

Demonzfyre

Silver Centurion confirmed God tier.

SlayerOfGods

I would personally not want Moon Knight to have a full rework if it meant removing his lunar based abilities.

He's the only champ in the game who's abilities change based on the actual moon in real life (besides Werewolf) and I'd love Kabam to expand on that and make him a fun gimmick champ.

Shadowstrike

Rookiie said:

Greed_Exodus said:

They should honestly take a few months to just rework all the duds, I would rather have that than new versions of iron man or spider man they keep pumping out like braindead goblins

I think so too. Kabam is focusing too much on pumping and balancing new champions, without considering the champions that are trailing behind. The first 3 buckets alone account for 70 champs.

I'm not disagreeing with any of this but the reality is that they took a hit from the Iron Man remaster, so financially, there's no upside to prioritizing them and that's not even including the fact that they still have to answer to Marvel themselves, who will say that they want specific champions released to help promote a movie instead of a rework.

The_1140

I really think phoenix deserves a buff but have basically no clue on abilities
Some buff that triggers against certain champs a bit like mags' one but to do some amount of burst damage instead of reducing ability accuracy or that sort of buff
She is one of the coolest and the most powerfull mutant aswell as being really well known from the films so she'd be quite a popular one too.

Rookiie

Demonzfyre said:

Silver Centurion confirmed God tier.

Silver Centurion OP

Rookiie

SlayerOfGods said:

I would personally not want Moon Knight to have a full rework if it meant removing his lunar based abilities.

He's the only champ in the game who's abilities change based on the actual moon in real life (besides Werewolf) and I'd love Kabam to expand on that and make him a fun gimmick champ.

Yeah Moon Knight’s lunar based abilities are so unique and out of the box, so we wouldn’t want to see them removed. However, I can see them doing both, keeping his lunar theme and giving him new abilities, rather than just boosts in Fury and Critical Rating.

Nightheart

SlayerOfGods said:

I would personally not want Moon Knight to have a full rework if it meant removing his lunar based abilities.

He's the only champ in the game who's abilities change based on the actual moon in real life (besides Werewolf) and I'd love Kabam to expand on that and make him a fun gimmick champ.

How about Moon Knight's Moon Phases based on Pre fights... so you can select which phase suits to your needs.

captain_rogers

If peni needs a slight buff, I do believe omega sentinel needs it more than peni, Just by increasing omega sentinel 's debuff duration and letting her sp1 refresh incenerates as well, She may even become better than shuri for everest contents.

Rookiie

CyborgNinja135 said:

I ranked up my Sabretooth recently and he's got the potential to be really solid. Here are some suggestions.

1. The most important change imo would be to get rid of his wacky persistent charge mechanic. Make it work like Stryfe's instead. At the end of the fight, for each of Sabretooth's personal fury effects active, gain a persistent charge. Max: 30. They can also keep the cap of furies that can be converted by dashing back and idling to 15. It's not a big deal and it's kinda fun.

2. All attacks have X chance to inflict bleed, doubled on crits.

3. Move the Killmonger synergy to his base kit.

This already would make him quite solid. Not the best, but still useful in some areas. Now for some new, and hopefully interesting, abilities he could have.

1. Dashing back and idling for 1 second while Sabretooth has 15+ persistent charges or while the opponent has 10+ bleeds triggers Bloodlust for 12 seconds. Interrupting the opponent's basic, dash or heavy attacks pause bloodlust for 6 seconds. While Bloodlust is active, all bleed effects on the opponent are paused. Additionally, deal instant bleed damage on every hit (can be a small amount; something like 5% of modified attack) and gain life steal equal to the same amount (capped at 3% of missing health). I like the idea of Sabretooth being more of a brawler champion, like Abs Man, and not relying on special attacks for big damage like most mutants. Also the methods for pausing Bloodlust encourage the player to be more aggressive, like Sabretooth

2. Sabretooth is immune to all prowess effects. Whenever he would gain prowess, trigger Bloodlust for 5 seconds; this effect cannot be paused. Ability goes on cooldown for 5 seconds.

3. New ability added to his sig. Against non-Tech champions, if a bleed effect would be prevented by an immunity, apply a corresponding rupture effect instead.

This are mainly ideas I came up with while and had some free time and roughly put together some let me know what you guys think.

Some great ideas here and thanks for sharing them! I agree with 1 and 3, because those principles would enable him to hold his own without synergies.

In terms of new abilities, I really like 3. It would make him similar to Lady Deathstrike which actually makes sense considering they’re both clawed and in the Mutant class.

The Bloodlust ability, I’m not really sold on the pausing aspect of it. However, if it dealt Critical Bleeds instead …

Rookiie

Nightheart said:

SlayerOfGods said:

I would personally not want Moon Knight to have a full rework if it meant removing his lunar based abilities.

He's the only champ in the game who's abilities change based on the actual moon in real life (besides Werewolf) and I'd love Kabam to expand on that and make him a fun gimmick champ.

How about Moon Knight's Moon Phases based on Pre fights... so you can select which phase suits to your needs.

No that would take the entire purpose of it away

Armageddøn

Moon knight buff would be great but i like this idea better:
Give us a completely new Moon knight with mystic class, loved that mummy suit outfit in his mcu show. Hope we can see Khonshu in his sp3 as well. A pre fight where we can switch between Moon knight and Mr knight would be sick but I'm probably asking for too much now😂