What happened to class advantages?

JarlofModesto25JarlofModesto25 Member Posts: 41
I don’t get what’s going on with champions that counter their disadvantage. Why are cosmics immune to fate seal, nullify and power steal? No techs do any of that(except one vision). Now there’s destroyer who is immune to slow… he should be HURT by slow like everyone else. Serpent who probably counters mystic more than tech. He stops unstoppable.. but tech doesn’t go unstoppable! Directly counters juggernaut. Kabam is more and more making all my favorite champions useless.
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Comments

  • JarlofModesto25JarlofModesto25 Member Posts: 41
    Samanun said:

    well i mean anyone counters juggy but yeah I understand what you mean but i dont really mind it tho

    A lot of people counter Juggs but not many make him unplayable
  • JarlofModesto25JarlofModesto25 Member Posts: 41
    Pikolu said:

    I blame Magneto

    Haha magneto is the exception. I think it all started after Galan
  • winterthurwinterthur Member Posts: 8,058 ★★★★★
    ahmynuts said:

    Time to bring back Role Reversal global node.

    Be careful what you wish for
    Thought it will be good. All six classes will be OP over Collector and the likes.
  • Jack2634Jack2634 Member Posts: 921 ★★★

    but tech doesn’t go unstoppable! .

    *laughed in nimgoat and red skull*
  • Toproller89Toproller89 Member Posts: 887 ★★★
    A

    Pikolu said:

    I blame Magneto

    Haha magneto is the exception. I think it all started after Galan
    Nope, Angela
  • captain_rogerscaptain_rogers Member Posts: 9,458 ★★★★★
    @Ercarret
    I don't think mystic class died with doom. Obviously doom is broken and do a lot of things, but that doesn't mean They can introduce a lot of nullify/stagger/fateseal immune champs.

    There are broken mystic champs, but none of them have any abiltiy to counter or purify non damaging debuffs (Science class effects). Similarly no science champs counter purify/cleanse or Critical hits (Skill class effects). Similarly no skill champ counters or removes prowess or regen effects, or apply heal block (Mutant class effects).

    Some mutants like magneto and onslaught counter metal champs, which is mostly tech, but they are exception since magneto's entire character revolves around controlling metals.

    Kitty is a issue. She reduces AAR of robots by 20% while phasing, which is a unwanted abiltiy.

    Except these champs, only cosmic and tech champs have abilities that counter class advantage.

    Galan, adam and serpent counter fateseal. Adam, maestro and vox counter neutralize, gladiator if I'm not wrong, counter nullify as well I think. That is literally every cosmic released after 2023 counters nullify or neutralize in some way.

    Similarly, nimrod and lady D counter Armor break. And Peni parker goes one step beyond and completely shut down true strike buffs.

    Cosmic champs are more punishing nowadays with their anti mystic abiltiies.
  • IlociaM97IlociaM97 Member Posts: 163
    It use to be that brocken Champs had their kits nerfed on class disadvantage, like colossus or falcon
  • EdisonLawEdisonLaw Member Posts: 7,527 ★★★★★
    It’s to keep the contest growing. Without new interactions or mechanics, the game would quickly become boring if every single champ had the same kit as the other
  • JarlofModesto25JarlofModesto25 Member Posts: 41
    Ercarret said:

    The mystic class basically died after Doom came out in 2019. He has some of the best power control in the game, best buff control, best a lot of things that mystic champions were typically made for. He basically made the rest of the entire class redundant because he could do most things the best, so there was no need to really invest in other champions.

    Since then, Kabam has branched out both what the mystic class can do and what kind of counters the cosmic class needs. Suddenly, Doom is no longer automatically the best option because his nullify and stagger are no longer the only mechanics to deal with buffs, and some cosmic champions require other counters. Basically, the classes evolved past the "cosmics gain buffs and mystics nullify them" relationship that had been there since pretty much the start of the game.

    This does cause friction at times. Especially when champions are released before the mechanics intended to combat them effectively aren't yet in the game (I remember when America Chavez came into the game and one of the ways to counter her was to place a Wither debuff on her, which confused a lot of people since that wasn't a thing in the game at that point and only came out some time later when Spidey 2099 was released).

    However, I strongly disagree with the notion that champions should be limited to "their" class's utility. I have no problem whatsoever that Serpent counters Unstoppable. That's great! Just because there aren't that many tech champions with it doesn't mean they can't stand on top of nodes that grant them it, either now or in the future.

    Plus, we recently got the newly-buffed Red Skull, one of who's brand-new mechanics is a super annoying unstoppable that won't go away until you hit his block and take damage. Sounds like something that would need a cosmic counter, and what do you know! Serpant can deal with it.

    Overall, I think Kabam needed to reevaluate how they design champion a couple of years ago. I'm pretty sure that's why it took such an insanely long time to get a new mutant into the game, because Nimrod countered their whole design philosophy to mutants. He's a monster even against all of the mutants that were released after him, up until Onslaught.

    Ultimately, the game needs to evolve. The same mystic champion can't be OP for years on end, just like the best cosmic or tech or whichever class champion can't. As such, developing new champions that need different counters is, in the end, healthy for the game even if it can be annoying for a bit for us as players.

    He should counter armor up, not unstoppable as Mystics go unstoppable not techs besides one sometimes. That’s just how class advantages are supposed to work. You counter the class that you have an advantage on not the other way around. When I’d use Galan, more often than not I’d use him on mystics. Yes it surely was a way to stop everyone from relying on doom but they’ve overdone it by far. And for some reason they’re now countering fate seal as if everyone was relying on Longshot.

    The game should not evolve. Mutants counter purify, skill usually benefit from debuffs, science are supposed to counter regen and unstoppable but I guess they won’t be doing that anymore.. mystics are supposed to punish buffs but that’s unlikely unless you’ve got the right rank up by chance. Which class will they destroy next? Are mutants going to be immune to power drain or something??
  • JarlofModesto25JarlofModesto25 Member Posts: 41
    EdisonLaw said:

    It’s to keep the contest growing. Without new interactions or mechanics, the game would quickly become boring if every single champ had the same kit as the other

    So they’re just dissolving class advantages to keep it interesting? Don’t get it. For science I’d have a few heavy hitters that could take any mystics. However with a cosmic boss you’ll likely only have one Mystic counter in your whole team because they’re immune to nullify and fate seal or whatever, not even counting the nodes. It makes class balancing your roster pointless
  • JarlofModesto25JarlofModesto25 Member Posts: 41
    Ercarret said:

    I don't think the mystic class is currently dead, but I do think that what revitalized it was the introduction of new ways of dealing with buffs and new ways for cosmic champions to counter the age-old ways of mystics.

    If we compare the mystic class with the science one, for example. Mystics main area is buff control while the science champs' are non-damaging debuffs.

    Mystics: Prior to 2019, buff control was basically just done via nullify.
    Science champs: prior to 2019, you had concussion, enervate, armor break, petrify, heal block, power stings, fatigue, exhaust, weakness, and I'm probably forgetting something.

    In essence, it didn't matter what kind of utility cosmic champions got from their buffs, because any mystic could deal with it via the same old tried and true way - nullify. Meanwhile, if a mystic champion came with some new type of utility, there needed to come a new science champ with a new type of debuff to handle it.

    Science champs were infinitely more versatile than mystic champs since all of those basically just did the same thing in different ways, and Doom did them the best. After you ranked him up, there wasn't much of a point to the rest of the mutant class. Whereas even if you ranked up the best science champ (around 2019, that must have been Torch, right?), there were still a lot of utility that he didn't have and that you needed other science champions for.

    That was not the case with the mystic class. I vividly remember ranking him up and thinking, okay, I'm done with the mystics now. I don't need anyone else just to do the same thing that he does - worse - in a different way. I did end up ranking up Mojo and Tigra because they did actually interact differently with buffs and did offer me something new to enjoy with the class, but the class was still in bad form. Those two champs came out in 2020, so the year after Doom, and in 2021, the only really good champ is Sigil Witch and she barely counts since she's paywalled off. America Chavez is good after her buff but that didn't come until two years or so later.

    However, in 2022, we finally started seeing a change. The cosmic champs that came out needed different counters and suddenly Tigra and Mojo weren't fringe characters anymore. Similarly, new champions were introduced that countered the new cosmic non-nullify shenanigans. I feel like 2022 was the year that finally revitalized the mystic class.

    It's also worth noting that, while there have been a lot of champions that are immune to fate seal and nullify in various forms and combinations, Kabam has also released someone like Vox who is extremely vulnerable to it.

    If Kabam hadn't decided to give their new cosmic champions ways to deal with nullify, we would probably see a lot more cosmic champions like Knull that rely very little on buffs that can be nullified in the first place. I really don't think that just trudging along with cosmic champions getting new buffs that any old mystic champion could easily deal with would have been viable. Things needed to be shaken up.

    Doom was pretty well rounded but I’d certainly say he wasn’t all you’d need. He’s not great vs purify and personally I hate his play style, relying on the AI to be cooperative. And by the time cosmic counters came around I think there were already better mystics out there if I remember right. They’re definitely in overkill mode now and making all mystics only partially useful, not just doom. I do not want to have to rank up 5 mystics while I only have/need 2 skill. They’re definitely not stopping, just wait for the next cosmic or mystic.
  • JarlofModesto25JarlofModesto25 Member Posts: 41

    @Ercarret
    I don't think mystic class died with doom. Obviously doom is broken and do a lot of things, but that doesn't mean They can introduce a lot of nullify/stagger/fateseal immune champs.

    There are broken mystic champs, but none of them have any abiltiy to counter or purify non damaging debuffs (Science class effects). Similarly no science champs counter purify/cleanse or Critical hits (Skill class effects). Similarly no skill champ counters or removes prowess or regen effects, or apply heal block (Mutant class effects).

    Some mutants like magneto and onslaught counter metal champs, which is mostly tech, but they are exception since magneto's entire character revolves around controlling metals.

    Kitty is a issue. She reduces AAR of robots by 20% while phasing, which is a unwanted abiltiy.

    Except these champs, only cosmic and tech champs have abilities that counter class advantage.

    Galan, adam and serpent counter fateseal. Adam, maestro and vox counter neutralize, gladiator if I'm not wrong, counter nullify as well I think. That is literally every cosmic released after 2023 counters nullify or neutralize in some way.

    Similarly, nimrod and lady D counter Armor break. And Peni parker goes one step beyond and completely shut down true strike buffs.

    Cosmic champs are more punishing nowadays with their anti mystic abiltiies.

    I didn’t know about those tech champions, that’s just insane. What’s funny is there’s more cosmics immune to nullify than science champs. Destroyer is immune to the slow debuff for some reason. Kinda seems like a skill trait if you ask me. Who’s next? Mutants immune to power burn? Science stopping those who purify? Not playing the game if only 1/4 of my class is usable on the boss forcing me to have 5+ of one class.
  • Greed_ExodusGreed_Exodus Member Posts: 392 ★★★
    Now we just need a skill champ who can cook all the op mutant defenders lol
  • GlassbackGlassback Member Posts: 641 ★★★
    I don’t mind it for those champs because eventually you get the roster to mitigate it, but when it’s a mystery champ like on the preview, can’t see who is so you bring a Mystic for someone like Angela it’s quite frustrating.
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