Paying to win an item? That's is a minimizing statement if I have ever read one. P2W is offensive. I spend in the game because I enjoy playing the game. I have a FT job, I'm a dad, I enjoy spending time away from an iPad/iPhone.
MCOC requires currency from everyone. For most, it's time, for both players who spend and who don't. It's what the majority of us weigh when making a decision on whether to grind arena or pick up an offer. "Do I have time to grind for the featured champ this week or should I pick up the pre-release bundle." "Is this champ worthy of either?" Questions can go on and on.
The moment people start interjecting labels for the "other" side, it evokes a negative response. The data could have been the sole basis for the benefits of the Daily Super Event and the 22hr/7hr events. Do the calculations, put it in a post, and say that there are significantly more benefit to the 22/7 events than the Daily Super one.
I thought the DSE was great. I didn't feel like I had to focus on any one area of the game to get the rewards. It offered variety. For me, the rank 3 mats were more valuable than another 7*. With the prevalence of shards in the game, the sig stones and forming a crystal weren't as important. We had a choice, just like we have when deciding to spend or grind.
14 years playing and being a part of mobile gaming communities; this is the first time I've ever seen p2w called offensive.
I find that impossible to believe. The term “pay to win” has been generally derogatory for basically the entire time I’ve heard the term, going back to the mid 2000s. Yes, there are individual players that will wear it as an (ironic) badge of honor, and yes, there are places where the term has a completely different context (games in Asia, for example), but in most of the western world, I have yet to stumble across a single game community where the term is either seen positively or neutral. The connotation is always that the player in question spent their way to the top instead of getting there through meritocratic game play.
The neutral version of the term pay2win is “spending” and the players who do it are called “spenders.” Saying that pay2win is not intended to be an offensive term borders on gaslighting. When someone says a game is becoming more pay2win, they aren’t celebrating the fact that it is generating more revenue.
There are people who claim that pay2win is just calling it like it is. These people are either intellectually dishonest, or intellectually bankrupt.
There are casual players spending a couple bucks a month here and there for fun, and still slowly working towards becoming Cavalier. These players are not paying to win anything,. There are players who don’t spend regularly, but decide to buy a preview bundle because their favorite champ was just added to the game and they want a shot at getting it. These players are not paying to win anything. There are players who just buy the Sigil and the unit card every month and that’s it, because they just want to support the game. These players are also not paying to win anything. And there are even mega whales spending a ton of money because everyone else in their alliance does and they want to keep up with them. Even these players are not necessarily paying to win anything in particular. Only they know why they are spending so we can’t ascribe motive or intent behind the spending, All we know is that they are spending. Calling them spenders tells it like it is. Calling them anything else is applying a judgment.
How does Super Daily Event affect FTP/STP through arena grinding? Simple, we will have to reduce the amount of lower star level champs ranked for the grind, we won't be able to boost every match of our 3 day grind (9h per day minimum) or our champions, making us UNABLE TO COMPETE for a featured champion and maybe for upcoming 7* arenas.
First of all, only 400-800 players actually earn the featured champ, out of the tens of thousands of arena grinders and hundreds of thousands of players. This sort of impact would be trivial, and focused on players who need the least amount of help, assuming the impact was actually material in the first place.
Second, while the Daily Super Event does have less gold, that's largely compensated for by the gold and ISO in the Traders Outpost. I can't imagine any player concerned about gold not taking advantage of that option. It is progression sensitive, but for Valiant players that's an additional 3 million gold per week, or about 12 million gold per month. The net impact of the Outpost offers and the switch to the Super Daily was still net positive for gold.
Third, absolutely no one grinding at the level you claim to be should have any problems with gold, even if they were not specifically targeting featured champs. You would need to be doing hundreds of rounds of arena every cycle to hit the featured champ every single time, as you claim to be doing. That is millions more gold. Ever since I became an arena grinder, I have never had an issue with gold. Which was about seven years ago.
Fourth, your arena points are based on a base rarity bonus plus 25% of your own PI plus 30% of opponent PI plus a synergy bonus. So a 15% attack bonus would be increasing your points by significantly less than 15% of 25% of maybe 50%-60%. So like maybe 1-2%. They would also speed you up slightly, but most arena fights are over quickly enough that overhead significantly dilute fight speed increases.
The gold thing would have been a problem absent the Outpost additions (I even pointed it out to the devs initially), but my own experience is that nope, in the context of the Outpost offer it doesn't really matter. The boost thing matters a little, but in the specific context of what players can achieve in the arena, the temperature of their phones probably matter more. And outside of the arena few players actually need that many attack boosts.
Also, you're going to have to explain how you are capable of snagging literally every single featured champ (minus one, as you claim) in the arenas and still have enough time to max out all the 22hr and 7hr solo events to actually get all those rewards, since you are comparing the maximum possible rewards from solo events to the Super Daily. That comparison is only relevant to players who were originally get all or nearly all of them. As an arena grinder, I know it was possible to get most of them for a high activity player. But not all of them.
From my perspective, the impact isn't material, it's actually based on not having an option to compete in this game by taking away the grinding resources even though I invest hundreds of hours to achieve this.
Traders outpost does have a 300k gold bundles as you state, however I also need rank up mats and sig stones so I choose to buy out bundles 4 & 5. I have to choose between one or another. With the 7h and 22h solo events I get the gold, no need to choose between bundle 6. .
What did you do before the Traders outpost existed? If those bundles are absolutely necessary, what did you do before you could buy those? The traders outpost hasn’t been out all that long.
Side quests did not usually provide the same level of resource targeting consistently. Now that you have the choice to buy cats or gold or a mix of both, you’re choosing to go al-in on cats and avoid gold altogether. Isn’t it possible that this decision has as much to do with your gold shortage as the Super Daily? Before the outpost, you would have essentially been *forced* to get at least some gold most months from the side quest. You are apparently choosing to no longer get that gold.
Paying to win an item? That's is a minimizing statement if I have ever read one. P2W is offensive. I spend in the game because I enjoy playing the game. I have a FT job, I'm a dad, I enjoy spending time away from an iPad/iPhone.
MCOC requires currency from everyone. For most, it's time, for both players who spend and who don't. It's what the majority of us weigh when making a decision on whether to grind arena or pick up an offer. "Do I have time to grind for the featured champ this week or should I pick up the pre-release bundle." "Is this champ worthy of either?" Questions can go on and on.
The moment people start interjecting labels for the "other" side, it evokes a negative response. The data could have been the sole basis for the benefits of the Daily Super Event and the 22hr/7hr events. Do the calculations, put it in a post, and say that there are significantly more benefit to the 22/7 events than the Daily Super one.
I thought the DSE was great. I didn't feel like I had to focus on any one area of the game to get the rewards. It offered variety. For me, the rank 3 mats were more valuable than another 7*. With the prevalence of shards in the game, the sig stones and forming a crystal weren't as important. We had a choice, just like we have when deciding to spend or grind.
In fact p2w players collude to avoid other p2w players, alliances, guilds, kingdoms, servers, etc. Because they're not spending to be bigger than other p2w, they definitely don't spend to support the game. They spend to be stronger than non spenders. Whenever big spenders meet up and slug it out its always a big deal because big spenders avoid wallet wars.
I feel the majority of this is contradictory to what this community actually is, though. To be competitive at all levels of this game, you're pretty much forced to spend. Highly doubt there's any true F2P in Masters alliances. And those of us who spend are spending to be bigger than our competition who are doing the same thing. And the competitive modes of this game indeed have you slugging it out, because that's the design of those modes. Regardless of skill, if you've got a weak roster and don't spend to change that, "sorry lil bro, you can go chill with the amateur league. This is top dog territory." Even someone as skilled as MSD still spends. Because that's the only way to stay relevant amongst your peers.
Its not comparable. At its core mcoc is player vs ai. It all boils down to who can beat the ai the best. The bragging rights don't hit the same because its not a competitive pvp game. A f2p winning in aw or bgs is not the same as f2p winning a 1v1 or a kvk against a whale or powerful p2w kingdoms.
Paying to win an item? That's is a minimizing statement if I have ever read one. P2W is offensive. I spend in the game because I enjoy playing the game. I have a FT job, I'm a dad, I enjoy spending time away from an iPad/iPhone.
MCOC requires currency from everyone. For most, it's time, for both players who spend and who don't. It's what the majority of us weigh when making a decision on whether to grind arena or pick up an offer. "Do I have time to grind for the featured champ this week or should I pick up the pre-release bundle." "Is this champ worthy of either?" Questions can go on and on.
The moment people start interjecting labels for the "other" side, it evokes a negative response. The data could have been the sole basis for the benefits of the Daily Super Event and the 22hr/7hr events. Do the calculations, put it in a post, and say that there are significantly more benefit to the 22/7 events than the Daily Super one.
I thought the DSE was great. I didn't feel like I had to focus on any one area of the game to get the rewards. It offered variety. For me, the rank 3 mats were more valuable than another 7*. With the prevalence of shards in the game, the sig stones and forming a crystal weren't as important. We had a choice, just like we have when deciding to spend or grind.
14 years playing and being a part of mobile gaming communities; this is the first time I've ever seen p2w called offensive.
I find that impossible to believe. The term “pay to win” has been generally derogatory for basically the entire time I’ve heard the term, going back to the mid 2000s. Yes, there are individual players that will wear it as an (ironic) badge of honor, and yes, there are places where the term has a completely different context (games in Asia, for example), but in most of the western world, I have yet to stumble across a single game community where the term is either seen positively or neutral. The connotation is always that the player in question spent their way to the top instead of getting there through meritocratic game play.
The neutral version of the term pay2win is “spending” and the players who do it are called “spenders.” Saying that pay2win is not intended to be an offensive term borders on gaslighting. When someone says a game is becoming more pay2win, they aren’t celebrating the fact that it is generating more revenue.
There are people who claim that pay2win is just calling it like it is. These people are either intellectually dishonest, or intellectually bankrupt.
There are casual players spending a couple bucks a month here and there for fun, and still slowly working towards becoming Cavalier. These players are not paying to win anything,. There are players who don’t spend regularly, but decide to buy a preview bundle because their favorite champ was just added to the game and they want a shot at getting it. These players are not paying to win anything. There are players who just buy the Sigil and the unit card every month and that’s it, because they just want to support the game. These players are also not paying to win anything. And there are even mega whales spending a ton of money because everyone else in their alliance does and they want to keep up with them. Even these players are not necessarily paying to win anything in particular. Only they know why they are spending so we can’t ascribe motive or intent behind the spending, All we know is that they are spending. Calling them spenders tells it like it is. Calling them anything else is applying a judgment.
Both f2p and p2w judge each other. Just as there are hardcore f2p there are casual p2w. I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying. Only calling bs on the one sided argument one side always want to make. Theres a food chain in mobile gaming. Some small spenders look down on f2p. Big spenders look down on small spenders. And so on.
.So of I call free players Free to lose, implying they are losers would it be fine?...I don't believe in this; but i also don't believe I pay to win...
.So of I call free players Free to lose, implying they are losers would it be fine?...I don't believe in this; but i also don't believe I pay to win...
Funny enough. Spenders use f2p as an insult towards other spenders when they clearly have the upper hand. F2ps are considered peasants in some communities.
.So of I call free players Free to lose, implying they are losers would it be fine?...I don't believe in this; but i also don't believe I pay to win...
Funny enough. Spenders use f2p as an insult towards other spenders when they clearly have the upper hand. F2ps are considered peasants in some communities.
Just to make it clear, I don't have anything against Free players. My problem is with the entitled ones and the ones who use it as an excuse to try to get what they want. Specially the ones who say "We need to get more stuff to keep up", its the stupidest excuse since the spenders will get them too!!!
.So of I call free players Free to lose, implying they are losers would it be fine?...I don't believe in this; but i also don't believe I pay to win...
Funny enough. Spenders use f2p as an insult towards other spenders when they clearly have the upper hand. F2ps are considered peasants in some communities.
Just to make it clear, I don't have anything against Free players. My problem is with the entitled ones and the ones who use it as an excuse to try to get what they want. Specially the ones who say "We need to get more stuff to keep up", its the stupidest excuse since the spenders will get them too!!!
100%. Can't pay those any attention. They're speaking selfishly. And sometimes it comes off as rage bait. Then the other side comes in and start saying their peace and sound worse than who they're arguing with.
First of all, Once you spend (Sigil) you are not a FTP anymore.
As an actual FTP player, I like the super daily event. It makes your gameplay less of a chore. And you can freely grind in whatever mode you want. It gives you more gold when compared to the RNG uncollected gold crystals. And plus rank up materials that would cost you more resources to attain. 750 7*shards a day. You get more from this than most eq or side quest in a month. Not to mention T4 alphas which you can’t find easily which swiping that card.
So I’m not sure what you are on about.
That's why when I explained I said I was Sigil to Play, not because I want to but because I CAN'T compete in arena without it.
That's not a thing. You spend money, you are P2W. You can compete with P2W players, you are not playing from the perspetive of a F2P players
Can we stop this pay to "win" bs?... You don't see us calling others Free to leech.. Its like free players wear a magic cape and a badge and feel special when all they do is complain about not getting stuff...
The game wouldn't survive without pay to win players. The game wouldn't survive without Free to play players as well.
But yk what, The game won't notice a bit if you decide to quit or stop spending in the game. You act like you are the biggest spender in the game and the game is alive because of you.
Even the biggest whales like Usafa are ok with the ptw term cuz it means, They won something (game item) by paying some money to the game. They literally made a purchase.
You act like p2w players and whales are actually donating money for nothing in return, just for the welfare of the game. No, they don't care about kabam or buying their employees a cheeseburger. They want some game item, They don't have the time/patience to grind, but the money to buy it, So they are buying it.
You are just acting like that one rich MBA guy who yaps about capitalism and thinks giving free rations to poor people is the reason for economic hardship, Lol.
You are not getting the point. I act the same way they F2L do. Oh yeah I am pretty sure when they say P2W they mean the item they won rofl, if you believe that you are as naive as they come. Lets add the sob replies they give after saying "Well I have a life, a family, obligatioms and bills" I am pretty sure they mean well when they reply that way rofl. I am not acting like a rich MBA guy, you want to know why? Because I am not starting responses as I am a spender I don't think F2L players should get stuff. I am replying to people who just complain about NOT getting stuff. People who believe getting free stuff will keep them competitive, and that is the biggest lie in the game. If they get stuff guess what? Spenders get it too there is no gap narrowing. They just want more stuff and use the gap as an excuse. True fact if 1000 spenders quit, the quality of game, service, and other stuff lowers. (are we seeing this right now? I think we are) If 1000 F2L players quit, more bandwidth.
To be fair, you started pointing fingers at everyone and got hostile. I'd suggest you tone it down.
To be fair, he just pointed out that the term P2W is offensive and people piled on saying bigger spenders haven't pushed back at the term. If you see the usage of the term in the forums, there is a strong implication that spenders are lesser skilled and somehow their progress in the game is less deserved. Just because only a few people are vocally against it doesn't mean that everyone else is ok with it.
There is no where anything you said has ever been implied. Popcorn diverted what the OP's thread was about and started his own grievances. This isn't the place for it.
My grievance? Did you read OPs post? Used the argument of being f2p (which he is not) and staying compentitive as a "F2P".... Maybe you should have told people to stop calling spenders P2W in the first place
My feelings dont get hurt if I'm spending money on the game. The OP has given an insight as to how much he is missing from the previous system vs this system. Nothing wrong in that. You're taking offense at something that isnt even relevant to the conversation.
Cannot believe bro is still trying to talk about competing as someone who doesn't spend on this game. Straight up delusion at this point. It's really too sad to see
It seems he is competing in Celestial which is a feat. It is a valid opinion to show how much he can get with straight up grinding the game.
This game is a chore to play without the Daily Super Event..
It has to come back these daily rewards are brutally outdated.
As I put in discord about this one. For those that are thronebreaker, paragon, and variant. We should not be getting cav crystals for the daily objectives. That's where the daily event comes in I guess, but they took out the weekly shards. I mean I like opening up crystals. 1 week and I get a paragon crystal which is cool because iso reasons. And more sigs on Champs. They removed the embers and relic shards. I actually liked those. People will probably disagree with what I'm saying but it's cool. I'm not gonna get booty tickled about it.
This game is a chore to play without the Daily Super Event..
It has to come back these daily rewards are brutally outdated.
As I put in discord about this one. For those that are thronebreaker, paragon, and variant. We should not be getting cav crystals for the daily objectives. That's where the daily event comes in I guess, but they took out the weekly shards. I mean I like opening up crystals. 1 week and I get a paragon crystal which is cool because iso reasons. And more sigs on Champs. They removed the embers and relic shards. I actually liked those. People will probably disagree with what I'm saying but it's cool. I'm not gonna get booty tickled about it.
Only chiming in to say how viscerally upsetting the phrase “booty tickled” is. Thanks, I hate it.
.So of I call free players Free to lose, implying they are losers would it be fine?...I don't believe in this; but i also don't believe I pay to win...
Paying to win an item? That's is a minimizing statement if I have ever read one. P2W is offensive. I spend in the game because I enjoy playing the game. I have a FT job, I'm a dad, I enjoy spending time away from an iPad/iPhone.
MCOC requires currency from everyone. For most, it's time, for both players who spend and who don't. It's what the majority of us weigh when making a decision on whether to grind arena or pick up an offer. "Do I have time to grind for the featured champ this week or should I pick up the pre-release bundle." "Is this champ worthy of either?" Questions can go on and on.
The moment people start interjecting labels for the "other" side, it evokes a negative response. The data could have been the sole basis for the benefits of the Daily Super Event and the 22hr/7hr events. Do the calculations, put it in a post, and say that there are significantly more benefit to the 22/7 events than the Daily Super one.
I thought the DSE was great. I didn't feel like I had to focus on any one area of the game to get the rewards. It offered variety. For me, the rank 3 mats were more valuable than another 7*. With the prevalence of shards in the game, the sig stones and forming a crystal weren't as important. We had a choice, just like we have when deciding to spend or grind.
14 years playing and being a part of mobile gaming communities; this is the first time I've ever seen p2w called offensive.
I find that impossible to believe. The term “pay to win” has been generally derogatory for basically the entire time I’ve heard the term, going back to the mid 2000s. Yes, there are individual players that will wear it as an (ironic) badge of honor, and yes, there are places where the term has a completely different context (games in Asia, for example), but in most of the western world, I have yet to stumble across a single game community where the term is either seen positively or neutral. The connotation is always that the player in question spent their way to the top instead of getting there through meritocratic game play.
The neutral version of the term pay2win is “spending” and the players who do it are called “spenders.” Saying that pay2win is not intended to be an offensive term borders on gaslighting. When someone says a game is becoming more pay2win, they aren’t celebrating the fact that it is generating more revenue.
There are people who claim that pay2win is just calling it like it is. These people are either intellectually dishonest, or intellectually bankrupt.
There are casual players spending a couple bucks a month here and there for fun, and still slowly working towards becoming Cavalier. These players are not paying to win anything,. There are players who don’t spend regularly, but decide to buy a preview bundle because their favorite champ was just added to the game and they want a shot at getting it. These players are not paying to win anything. There are players who just buy the Sigil and the unit card every month and that’s it, because they just want to support the game. These players are also not paying to win anything. And there are even mega whales spending a ton of money because everyone else in their alliance does and they want to keep up with them. Even these players are not necessarily paying to win anything in particular. Only they know why they are spending so we can’t ascribe motive or intent behind the spending, All we know is that they are spending. Calling them spenders tells it like it is. Calling them anything else is applying a judgment.
Both f2p and p2w judge each other. Just as there are hardcore f2p there are casual p2w. I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying. Only calling bs on the one sided argument one side always want to make. Theres a food chain in mobile gaming. Some small spenders look down on f2p. Big spenders look down on small spenders. And so on.
It is true that there are spenders who look down on free to play players and free to play players who look down upon the spenders, but it is also true that the vast majority of the public discussion is initiated by free to play players complaining about spenders. Spenders usually return the sentiment, but it is less common for spenders of this or any game to just randomly initiate a conversation or complaint about free to play players. It happens, but it is far less common.
The reason is logical. Spenders and free to play players cannot symmetrically change places. Spenders can stop spending at any time and become free to play players. If a spender thinks free to play players somehow have it better than them, they can become a free to play player with no effort. However, if a free to play player thinks spenders are treated too favorably compared to them, they cannot in general simply choose to become spenders.
And just to be clear, I wasn't saying that free to play players and spenders judge each other, although they do. I was saying that very specifically the term "pay to win" is inherently judgmental, in a way that free to play is not. "Free to play" and its abbreviation "f2p" is both a common colloquialism and a term of art. The game model that MCOC follows is the free to play model, and the players who play for free are the free to play players. That is the literal textbook term for that kind of game and those kinds of players.
"Pay to win" is not a term of art, and the free to play model does not define spenders as the pay to win population. Pay to win is a term created by players to refer to games that require spending to be reasonably competitive, alongside its sister term pay to play, where spending is considered sufficiently important that it is impossible to even play the game at any reasonable level without spending. Both are almost always considered derogatory.
.So of I call free players Free to lose, implying they are losers would it be fine?...I don't believe in this; but i also don't believe I pay to win...
.So of I call free players Free to lose, implying they are losers would it be fine?...I don't believe in this; but i also don't believe I pay to win...
Paying to win an item? That's is a minimizing statement if I have ever read one. P2W is offensive. I spend in the game because I enjoy playing the game. I have a FT job, I'm a dad, I enjoy spending time away from an iPad/iPhone.
MCOC requires currency from everyone. For most, it's time, for both players who spend and who don't. It's what the majority of us weigh when making a decision on whether to grind arena or pick up an offer. "Do I have time to grind for the featured champ this week or should I pick up the pre-release bundle." "Is this champ worthy of either?" Questions can go on and on.
The moment people start interjecting labels for the "other" side, it evokes a negative response. The data could have been the sole basis for the benefits of the Daily Super Event and the 22hr/7hr events. Do the calculations, put it in a post, and say that there are significantly more benefit to the 22/7 events than the Daily Super one.
I thought the DSE was great. I didn't feel like I had to focus on any one area of the game to get the rewards. It offered variety. For me, the rank 3 mats were more valuable than another 7*. With the prevalence of shards in the game, the sig stones and forming a crystal weren't as important. We had a choice, just like we have when deciding to spend or grind.
In fact p2w players collude to avoid other p2w players, alliances, guilds, kingdoms, servers, etc. Because they're not spending to be bigger than other p2w, they definitely don't spend to support the game. They spend to be stronger than non spenders. Whenever big spenders meet up and slug it out its always a big deal because big spenders avoid wallet wars.
I feel the majority of this is contradictory to what this community actually is, though. To be competitive at all levels of this game, you're pretty much forced to spend. Highly doubt there's any true F2P in Masters alliances. And those of us who spend are spending to be bigger than our competition who are doing the same thing. And the competitive modes of this game indeed have you slugging it out, because that's the design of those modes. Regardless of skill, if you've got a weak roster and don't spend to change that, "sorry lil bro, you can go chill with the amateur league. This is top dog territory." Even someone as skilled as MSD still spends. Because that's the only way to stay relevant amongst your peers.
When you say "competitive at all levels" what do you mean specifically? Do you define competitive as "has reasonable chance to be #1?" Because if so you're very likely to need to spend, not because the game is pay to win but for the simple reason that to be competitive with your peers in anything, you likely have to do what they do in large part. True for pick up basketball just as much as it is for MCOC.
But if you mean "at all levels" to be "reasonably competitive verses comparable peer players" then no, you don't need to spend, for the obvious reason that almost no one spends. Spending in mobile games is something only a few percent of all players do, and MCOC is almost certainly not the shining miracle exception to that rule. Hundreds of thousands play, maybe tens of thousands spend, maybe thousands spend more than a little. Competitive play at all levels, and not just the very very top, is not dominated by spenders, for the simple reason there aren't enough of them to dominate competitive play at all levels.
I have no idea if there is a "true" free to play player in Masters today, but Brian was in a masters alliance as a completely free to play account. If he did it, I'm reasonably sure he was not the only one. And completely separate from the "true" free to play players, I'm sure there are players who no longer spend and haven't spent for a significant period of time that are in masters alliances. They might not be "true" free to play players, but they've been free to play long enough to demonstrate that consistent spending is not necessary to be competitive.
And just because someone spends, that doesn't mean they owe their competitive capabilities to spending, or that spending is 100% necessary. MSD might spend, but he's a college student. I don't believe he has the financial resources to keep up with the whales. You could spend a million times more than him and not beat him. Spending enhances his game experience, but I do not believe it defines it. I don't think he's a good example of spending being necessary, because we have years of evidence from his content that spending isn't necessary to be competitive. Would anyone claim that MSD was not a competitive player when he was free to play?
First of all, Once you spend (Sigil) you are not a FTP anymore.
As an actual FTP player, I like the super daily event. It makes your gameplay less of a chore. And you can freely grind in whatever mode you want. It gives you more gold when compared to the RNG uncollected gold crystals. And plus rank up materials that would cost you more resources to attain. 750 7*shards a day. You get more from this than most eq or side quest in a month. Not to mention T4 alphas which you can’t find easily which swiping that card.
So I’m not sure what you are on about.
That's why when I explained I said I was Sigil to Play, not because I want to but because I CAN'T compete in arena without it.
That's not a thing. You spend money, you are P2W. You can compete with P2W players, you are not playing from the perspetive of a F2P players
Can we stop this pay to "win" bs?... You don't see us calling others Free to leech.. Its like free players wear a magic cape and a badge and feel special when all they do is complain about not getting stuff...
The game wouldn't survive without pay to win players. The game wouldn't survive without Free to play players as well.
But yk what, The game won't notice a bit if you decide to quit or stop spending in the game. You act like you are the biggest spender in the game and the game is alive because of you.
Even the biggest whales like Usafa are ok with the ptw term cuz it means, They won something (game item) by paying some money to the game. They literally made a purchase.
You act like p2w players and whales are actually donating money for nothing in return, just for the welfare of the game. No, they don't care about kabam or buying their employees a cheeseburger. They want some game item, They don't have the time/patience to grind, but the money to buy it, So they are buying it.
You are just acting like that one rich MBA guy who yaps about capitalism and thinks giving free rations to poor people is the reason for economic hardship, Lol.
You are not getting the point. I act the same way they F2L do. Oh yeah I am pretty sure when they say P2W they mean the item they won rofl, if you believe that you are as naive as they come. Lets add the sob replies they give after saying "Well I have a life, a family, obligatioms and bills" I am pretty sure they mean well when they reply that way rofl. I am not acting like a rich MBA guy, you want to know why? Because I am not starting responses as I am a spender I don't think F2L players should get stuff. I am replying to people who just complain about NOT getting stuff. People who believe getting free stuff will keep them competitive, and that is the biggest lie in the game. If they get stuff guess what? Spenders get it too there is no gap narrowing. They just want more stuff and use the gap as an excuse. True fact if 1000 spenders quit, the quality of game, service, and other stuff lowers. (are we seeing this right now? I think we are) If 1000 F2L players quit, more bandwidth.
To be fair, you started pointing fingers at everyone and got hostile. I'd suggest you tone it down.
To be fair, he just pointed out that the term P2W is offensive and people piled on saying bigger spenders haven't pushed back at the term. If you see the usage of the term in the forums, there is a strong implication that spenders are lesser skilled and somehow their progress in the game is less deserved. Just because only a few people are vocally against it doesn't mean that everyone else is ok with it.
There is no where anything you said has ever been implied. Popcorn diverted what the OP's thread was about and started his own grievances. This isn't the place for it.
My grievance? Did you read OPs post? Used the argument of being f2p (which he is not) and staying compentitive as a "F2P".... Maybe you should have told people to stop calling spenders P2W in the first place
My feelings dont get hurt if I'm spending money on the game. The OP has given an insight as to how much he is missing from the previous system vs this system. Nothing wrong in that. You're taking offense at something that isnt even relevant to the conversation.
Really? Cause it says keep competitive with spenders, and then someone comes saying P2W, I think its more related than what you think. My feelings don't get hurt if I am spending either, how stupid would I have to be to spend and feel hurt. Now someone judging what I do with my money and even saying I pay to win is a different story.
Really? Cause it says keep competitive with spenders, and then someone comes saying P2W, I think its more related than what you think. My feelings don't get hurt if I am spending either, how stupid would I have to be to spend and feel hurt. Now someone judging what I do with my money and even saying I pay to win is a different story.
You are spending to get an advantage. You are a P2W player, that's what it means. You are getting offended by it while at the same time, contradicting yourself stating you aren't, and even confirming you are right after. Just decide what it is ...
Honestly, I’ve never done 22hr events and it really doesn’t add up unless you are on 24/7 to do the timed dailies. Super Daily was quick, easy and I just want my 112 Generic 6* Sigs a week back so I can do my cracked rank ups/Sig ups 😂
Really? Cause it says keep competitive with spenders, and then someone comes saying P2W, I think its more related than what you think. My feelings don't get hurt if I am spending either, how stupid would I have to be to spend and feel hurt. Now someone judging what I do with my money and even saying I pay to win is a different story.
You are spending to get an advantage. You are a P2W player, that's what it means. You are getting offended by it while at the same time, contradicting yourself stating you aren't, and even confirming you are right after. Just decide what it is ...
If you spend, that doesn’t mean someone is P2W. You can spend and not win at the same time.
Really? Cause it says keep competitive with spenders, and then someone comes saying P2W, I think its more related than what you think. My feelings don't get hurt if I am spending either, how stupid would I have to be to spend and feel hurt. Now someone judging what I do with my money and even saying I pay to win is a different story.
You are spending to get an advantage. You are a P2W player, that's what it means. You are getting offended by it while at the same time, contradicting yourself stating you aren't, and even confirming you are right after. Just decide what it is ...
So Free players should acknowledge that people pay for an advantage and stop crying about how they are in a constant disadvantage right? Deal where do you want me to sign?
Really? Cause it says keep competitive with spenders, and then someone comes saying P2W, I think its more related than what you think. My feelings don't get hurt if I am spending either, how stupid would I have to be to spend and feel hurt. Now someone judging what I do with my money and even saying I pay to win is a different story.
You are spending to get an advantage.
How do you know that?
I mean, it is probably true to some extent, but how do you know that with enough certainty to pin the moniker on another player?
Your opinions about monetization and spending are pretty well represented on the forums, and you've been in enough discussions to know that the term "pay to win" is derogatory. Its why you throw it around, to make a point. But how do you know that any particular spender is spending "to get an advantage."
The last time I bought one of the preview bundles was when it was Invisible Woman. I did not spend that money to gain any sort of advantage. I did it because I thought she was a cool character and I thought it would be fun to spin some crystals to try to get her (and in point of fact, I got lucky and did). I got her, I played around with her, but I did not believe, nor did I expect, that acquiring her would confer any sort of advantage to my roster. In fact, the first time I actually gained any measurable benefit from acquiring her early, besides fun, was when I used my knowledge of her to design a Boss Rush fight, when she was still relatively new and less well known.
People spend for all kinds of reasons. Not all spending is driven by trying to gain a material advantage in the game. In fact, in most gatcha collection style games, a very large chunk of spending is directed at collection itself. People still chase the 2* version of champs in this game with very, very expensive collector crystals. People buy profile pictures. They will often spend more on resources to complete content when the rewards in that content can be purchased for less. None of this spending confers any sort of advantage in the normal sense of the word.
In fact, most of my spending is compensatory, not to gain specific advantage. For reasons I don't wish to rehash here, but I've discussed in the past, I play the game in very specific ways that are not advantageous. But that's how I want to play. So I play the way I want, and then I spend to compensate for some of the disadvantages and lost opportunities owing to the specific way I play. In other words, I spend to buy the right to play the way I want, and still get what I want in the game. Now some might call that sophistry, but they can go climb a tree.
When you say someone is spending to get an advantage, so you have the right to call them pay to win, you don't actually know why they spend any more than anyone else knows why someone else might be a free to play player. We all have our reasons, and none of us should be calling out other players. That's you, me, and everyone else in the thread.
Kabam if you are reading this please bring back the super event behind a paywall, I don't mind paying an extra monthly fee (a reasonable one of course) to get that event unlocked. Also test having ads every 6 fights, maybe that way free players can be a bit grateful about how the game works.
Kabam if you are reading this please bring back the super event behind a paywall, I don't mind paying an extra monthly fee (a reasonable one of course) to get that event unlocked. Also test having ads every 6 fights, maybe that way free players can be a bit grateful about how the game works.
Respectfully, no.
This was clearly stated and intended as a potential replacement for the existing timer events in the game for all players. Not just those who are free to play, spend a bit or spend a lot. Everyone.
This change benefits all players and to try and cut some players out of it is wrong. And the leeches comment backs that up sadly - if I was a new player who read that I'd wonder what the heck I'd just downloaded.
To echo @DNA3000 's sentiments, well worded as always, we can do better than this as a community.
How does Super Daily Event affect FTP/STP through arena grinding? Simple, we will have to reduce the amount of lower star level champs ranked for the grind, we won't be able to boost every match of our 3 day grind (9h per day minimum) or our champions, making us UNABLE TO COMPETE for a featured champion and maybe for upcoming 7* arenas.
First of all, only 400-800 players actually earn the featured champ, out of the tens of thousands of arena grinders and hundreds of thousands of players. This sort of impact would be trivial, and focused on players who need the least amount of help, assuming the impact was actually material in the first place.
Second, while the Daily Super Event does have less gold, that's largely compensated for by the gold and ISO in the Traders Outpost. I can't imagine any player concerned about gold not taking advantage of that option. It is progression sensitive, but for Valiant players that's an additional 3 million gold per week, or about 12 million gold per month. The net impact of the Outpost offers and the switch to the Super Daily was still net positive for gold.
Third, absolutely no one grinding at the level you claim to be should have any problems with gold, even if they were not specifically targeting featured champs. You would need to be doing hundreds of rounds of arena every cycle to hit the featured champ every single time, as you claim to be doing. That is millions more gold. Ever since I became an arena grinder, I have never had an issue with gold. Which was about seven years ago.
Fourth, your arena points are based on a base rarity bonus plus 25% of your own PI plus 30% of opponent PI plus a synergy bonus. So a 15% attack bonus would be increasing your points by significantly less than 15% of 25% of maybe 50%-60%. So like maybe 1-2%. They would also speed you up slightly, but most arena fights are over quickly enough that overhead significantly dilute fight speed increases.
The gold thing would have been a problem absent the Outpost additions (I even pointed it out to the devs initially), but my own experience is that nope, in the context of the Outpost offer it doesn't really matter. The boost thing matters a little, but in the specific context of what players can achieve in the arena, the temperature of their phones probably matter more. And outside of the arena few players actually need that many attack boosts.
Also, you're going to have to explain how you are capable of snagging literally every single featured champ (minus one, as you claim) in the arenas and still have enough time to max out all the 22hr and 7hr solo events to actually get all those rewards, since you are comparing the maximum possible rewards from solo events to the Super Daily. That comparison is only relevant to players who were originally get all or nearly all of them. As an arena grinder, I know it was possible to get most of them for a high activity player. But not all of them.
From my perspective, the impact isn't material, it's actually based on not having an option to compete in this game by taking away the grinding resources even though I invest hundreds of hours to achieve this.
Traders outpost does have a 300k gold bundles as you state, however I also need rank up mats and sig stones so I choose to buy out bundles 4 & 5. I have to choose between one or another. With the 7h and 22h solo events I get the gold, no need to choose between bundle 6. .
What did you do before the Traders outpost existed? If those bundles are absolutely necessary, what did you do before you could buy those? The traders outpost hasn’t been out all that long.
Side quests did not usually provide the same level of resource targeting consistently. Now that you have the choice to buy cats or gold or a mix of both, you’re choosing to go al-in on cats and avoid gold altogether. Isn’t it possible that this decision has as much to do with your gold shortage as the Super Daily? Before the outpost, you would have essentially been *forced* to get at least some gold most months from the side quest. You are apparently choosing to no longer get that gold.
I think we are not understanding each other. I am a valiant player who likes strategy, only buys sigil offer and has fun while trying to be competitive, meaning being able to push for #1 rankings. I try to have a good understanding of the game, champs, kits, masteries, nodes and everything related to the game. I care less to be competitive at Uru level for example, that is not challenging and therefore not fun to me.
How can I as a player stay competitive in Mcoc game modes without spending or only spending on sigil? By grinding out all content in game. Meaning aquiring all extra resources for free that my spending opponents don't because they either don't have the time, or don't care to grind. SDE doesn't help with this because spenders can EASILY aquire same rewards as me by playing 3 BG matches. On the other hand, 7h and 22h solo events will because my spending opponents don't play those events.
Also, arena grinding is the best source to accomplish that because you can earn featured champs after a small time from their release and play them on Mcoc game modes without having to wait 3 months or spend $100 on them. You can buy basic crystals at 10k rather than 15k value because you don't need featured champs anymore. With 100k shards I can dupe 10 champs with basics and gain 2,750 7* shards rather than opening 6 featureds, duping them and only gaining 1,650 7* shards (this not adding extra shards from max sig level crystals). I can also aquire units and battlechips from that grind that can be used on Events like July 4th or Cyberweekend in order to close the gap between roasters. It also gives me extra gold for all my rankings
I am a player that knows how to manage the resources of this game well enough, that plays with strategy and understands the value of things when buying at store currencies.
How does Super Daily Event help solve my problem of closing the roaster gap between spenders in order to stay competitive rather than the 7h and 22h solo events?
It doesn't, It takes away the resources I use to grind arena, I can't compete for featured champs, eliminates my strategy for roaster building and takes away the ONLY chance I have in game to stay competitive in mcoc game modes.
Kabam if you are reading this please bring back the super event behind a paywall, I don't mind paying an extra monthly fee (a reasonable one of course) to get that event unlocked. Also test having ads every 6 fights, maybe that way free players can be a bit grateful about how the game works.
Respectfully, no.
This was clearly stated and intended as a potential replacement for the existing timer events in the game for all players. Not just those who are free to play, spend a bit or spend a lot. Everyone.
This change benefits all players and to try and cut some players out of it is wrong. And the leeches comment backs that up sadly - if I was a new player who read that I'd wonder what the heck I'd just downloaded.
To echo @DNA3000 's sentiments, well worded as always, we can do better than this as a community.
I was being sarcastic. The leeches comment, yeah it was harsh I get it; but sometimes its the only way they can understand how entitled they are. I mean people got on me for calling them leeches and called Pay to win to a guy who buys the sigil rofl. Yeah that's gonna make him win A LOT. They even pointed it out, as if he was trying to infiltrate this extremely exclusive fraternity of F2P players and require a bloodline of pure breed non spending legacies. Oh no you sigil spender you will never be a F2P!!!; but I am the bad guy for calling them leeches.
To be completely honest here, the whole leeches comment is really disrespectful. Sure, there are definitely some ftp players that are leeches. It happens. But there are many many more ftp players out there that do put in their fair share of work for the game. Not just in game but for the community as well. Peole.who create infograpics. Help others complete content etc etc. Heck, take a look at alliances too for that matter. 30 people in an alliance. Let's say 2-3 are spenders maybe even big time spenders. They still won't get far when it comes to alliance events and rewards if those ftp done pull their own weight too. So before anyone Complains about the other half of a gaming community, aka spending vs non spending, remember you need both.
This is my current stash, I have not opened a single 7* for 6 months, waiting for Red Skull, Ounslought and Bullseye Titan pool to go into Basic Crystals. I can do this because I can grind their 6* versions in arena and take them to R6 while using them competitively.
Kabam if you are reading this please bring back the super event behind a paywall, I don't mind paying an extra monthly fee (a reasonable one of course) to get that event unlocked. Also test having ads every 6 fights, maybe that way free players can be a bit grateful about how the game works.
Respectfully, no.
This was clearly stated and intended as a potential replacement for the existing timer events in the game for all players. Not just those who are free to play, spend a bit or spend a lot. Everyone.
This change benefits all players and to try and cut some players out of it is wrong. And the leeches comment backs that up sadly - if I was a new player who read that I'd wonder what the heck I'd just downloaded.
To echo @DNA3000 's sentiments, well worded as always, we can do better than this as a community.
I was being sarcastic. The leeches comment, yeah it was harsh I get it; but sometimes its the only way they can understand how entitled they are. I mean people got on me for calling them leeches and called Pay to win to a guy who buys the sigil rofl. Yeah that's gonna make him win A LOT. They even pointed it out, as if he was trying to infiltrate this extremely exclusive fraternity of F2P players and require a bloodline of pure breed non spending legacies. Oh no you sigil spender you will never be a F2P!!!; but I am the bad guy for calling them leeches.
To be completely honest here, the whole leeches comment is really disrespectful. Sure, there are definitely some ftp players that are leeches. It happens. But there are many many more ftp players out there that do put in their fair share of work for the game. Not just in game but for the community as well. Peole.who create infograpics. Help others complete content etc etc. Heck, take a look at alliances too for that matter. 30 people in an alliance. Let's say 2-3 are spenders maybe even big time spenders. They still won't get far when it comes to alliance events and rewards if those ftp done pull their own weight too. So before anyone Complains about the other half of a gaming community, aka spending vs non spending, remember you need both.
Why do they get to say that people like me pay to win so freely? And please don't give me this story about people putting their work and stuff, they do it for their own personal benefit to off set not spending, they are not really doing favors to the community. The same way that I am not doing any favors by spending.
This is my current stash, I have not opened a single 7* for 6 months, waiting for Red Skull, Ounslought and Bullseye Titan pool to go into Basic Crystals. I can do this because I can grind their 6* versions in arena and take them to R6 while using them competitively.
So let me get this straight.. you can wait for 6 months to wait for a chance on 3 champions out of a pool of what? 100+ by now?; but you can't wait for 3 months to pull a 6* and not have to enslave yourself in arenas...
Comments
The neutral version of the term pay2win is “spending” and the players who do it are called “spenders.” Saying that pay2win is not intended to be an offensive term borders on gaslighting. When someone says a game is becoming more pay2win, they aren’t celebrating the fact that it is generating more revenue.
There are people who claim that pay2win is just calling it like it is. These people are either intellectually dishonest, or intellectually bankrupt.
There are casual players spending a couple bucks a month here and there for fun, and still slowly working towards becoming Cavalier. These players are not paying to win anything,. There are players who don’t spend regularly, but decide to buy a preview bundle because their favorite champ was just added to the game and they want a shot at getting it. These players are not paying to win anything. There are players who just buy the Sigil and the unit card every month and that’s it, because they just want to support the game. These players are also not paying to win anything. And there are even mega whales spending a ton of money because everyone else in their alliance does and they want to keep up with them. Even these players are not necessarily paying to win anything in particular. Only they know why they are spending so we can’t ascribe motive or intent behind the spending, All we know is that they are spending. Calling them spenders tells it like it is. Calling them anything else is applying a judgment.
Side quests did not usually provide the same level of resource targeting consistently. Now that you have the choice to buy cats or gold or a mix of both, you’re choosing to go al-in on cats and avoid gold altogether. Isn’t it possible that this decision has as much to do with your gold shortage as the Super Daily? Before the outpost, you would have essentially been *forced* to get at least some gold most months from the side quest. You are apparently choosing to no longer get that gold.
The reason is logical. Spenders and free to play players cannot symmetrically change places. Spenders can stop spending at any time and become free to play players. If a spender thinks free to play players somehow have it better than them, they can become a free to play player with no effort. However, if a free to play player thinks spenders are treated too favorably compared to them, they cannot in general simply choose to become spenders.
And just to be clear, I wasn't saying that free to play players and spenders judge each other, although they do. I was saying that very specifically the term "pay to win" is inherently judgmental, in a way that free to play is not. "Free to play" and its abbreviation "f2p" is both a common colloquialism and a term of art. The game model that MCOC follows is the free to play model, and the players who play for free are the free to play players. That is the literal textbook term for that kind of game and those kinds of players.
"Pay to win" is not a term of art, and the free to play model does not define spenders as the pay to win population. Pay to win is a term created by players to refer to games that require spending to be reasonably competitive, alongside its sister term pay to play, where spending is considered sufficiently important that it is impossible to even play the game at any reasonable level without spending. Both are almost always considered derogatory.
But if you mean "at all levels" to be "reasonably competitive verses comparable peer players" then no, you don't need to spend, for the obvious reason that almost no one spends. Spending in mobile games is something only a few percent of all players do, and MCOC is almost certainly not the shining miracle exception to that rule. Hundreds of thousands play, maybe tens of thousands spend, maybe thousands spend more than a little. Competitive play at all levels, and not just the very very top, is not dominated by spenders, for the simple reason there aren't enough of them to dominate competitive play at all levels.
I have no idea if there is a "true" free to play player in Masters today, but Brian was in a masters alliance as a completely free to play account. If he did it, I'm reasonably sure he was not the only one. And completely separate from the "true" free to play players, I'm sure there are players who no longer spend and haven't spent for a significant period of time that are in masters alliances. They might not be "true" free to play players, but they've been free to play long enough to demonstrate that consistent spending is not necessary to be competitive.
And just because someone spends, that doesn't mean they owe their competitive capabilities to spending, or that spending is 100% necessary. MSD might spend, but he's a college student. I don't believe he has the financial resources to keep up with the whales. You could spend a million times more than him and not beat him. Spending enhances his game experience, but I do not believe it defines it. I don't think he's a good example of spending being necessary, because we have years of evidence from his content that spending isn't necessary to be competitive. Would anyone claim that MSD was not a competitive player when he was free to play?
I mean, it is probably true to some extent, but how do you know that with enough certainty to pin the moniker on another player?
Your opinions about monetization and spending are pretty well represented on the forums, and you've been in enough discussions to know that the term "pay to win" is derogatory. Its why you throw it around, to make a point. But how do you know that any particular spender is spending "to get an advantage."
The last time I bought one of the preview bundles was when it was Invisible Woman. I did not spend that money to gain any sort of advantage. I did it because I thought she was a cool character and I thought it would be fun to spin some crystals to try to get her (and in point of fact, I got lucky and did). I got her, I played around with her, but I did not believe, nor did I expect, that acquiring her would confer any sort of advantage to my roster. In fact, the first time I actually gained any measurable benefit from acquiring her early, besides fun, was when I used my knowledge of her to design a Boss Rush fight, when she was still relatively new and less well known.
People spend for all kinds of reasons. Not all spending is driven by trying to gain a material advantage in the game. In fact, in most gatcha collection style games, a very large chunk of spending is directed at collection itself. People still chase the 2* version of champs in this game with very, very expensive collector crystals. People buy profile pictures. They will often spend more on resources to complete content when the rewards in that content can be purchased for less. None of this spending confers any sort of advantage in the normal sense of the word.
In fact, most of my spending is compensatory, not to gain specific advantage. For reasons I don't wish to rehash here, but I've discussed in the past, I play the game in very specific ways that are not advantageous. But that's how I want to play. So I play the way I want, and then I spend to compensate for some of the disadvantages and lost opportunities owing to the specific way I play. In other words, I spend to buy the right to play the way I want, and still get what I want in the game. Now some might call that sophistry, but they can go climb a tree.
When you say someone is spending to get an advantage, so you have the right to call them pay to win, you don't actually know why they spend any more than anyone else knows why someone else might be a free to play player. We all have our reasons, and none of us should be calling out other players. That's you, me, and everyone else in the thread.
Also test having ads every 6 fights, maybe that way free players can be a bit grateful about how the game works.
This was clearly stated and intended as a potential replacement for the existing timer events in the game for all players. Not just those who are free to play, spend a bit or spend a lot. Everyone.
This change benefits all players and to try and cut some players out of it is wrong. And the leeches comment backs that up sadly - if I was a new player who read that I'd wonder what the heck I'd just downloaded.
To echo @DNA3000 's sentiments, well worded as always, we can do better than this as a community.
I am a valiant player who likes strategy, only buys sigil offer and has fun while trying to be competitive, meaning being able to push for #1 rankings. I try to have a good understanding of the game, champs, kits, masteries, nodes and everything related to the game. I care less to be competitive at Uru level for example, that is not challenging and therefore not fun to me.
How can I as a player stay competitive in Mcoc game modes without spending or only spending on sigil? By grinding out all content in game. Meaning aquiring all extra resources for free that my spending opponents don't because they either don't have the time, or don't care to grind. SDE doesn't help with this because spenders can EASILY aquire same rewards as me by playing 3 BG matches. On the other hand, 7h and 22h solo events will because my spending opponents don't play those events.
Also, arena grinding is the best source to accomplish that because you can earn featured champs after a small time from their release and play them on Mcoc game modes without having to wait 3 months or spend $100 on them. You can buy basic crystals at 10k rather than 15k value because you don't need featured champs anymore. With 100k shards I can dupe 10 champs with basics and gain 2,750 7* shards rather than opening 6 featureds, duping them and only gaining 1,650 7* shards (this not adding extra shards from max sig level crystals). I can also aquire units and battlechips from that grind that can be used on Events like July 4th or Cyberweekend in order to close the gap between roasters. It also gives me extra gold for all my rankings
I am a player that knows how to manage the resources of this game well enough, that plays with strategy and understands the value of things when buying at store currencies.
How does Super Daily Event help solve my problem of closing the roaster gap between spenders in order to stay competitive rather than the 7h and 22h solo events?
It doesn't, It takes away the resources I use to grind arena, I can't compete for featured champs, eliminates my strategy for roaster building and takes away the ONLY chance I have in game to stay competitive in mcoc game modes.
This is my current stash, I have not opened a single 7* for 6 months, waiting for Red Skull, Ounslought and Bullseye Titan pool to go into Basic Crystals. I can do this because I can grind their 6* versions in arena and take them to R6 while using them competitively.
And please don't give me this story about people putting their work and stuff, they do it for their own personal benefit to off set not spending, they are not really doing favors to the community. The same way that I am not doing any favors by spending.