Give me a genuine explanation why raid chests should be RNG

Normax_X

I get that there should be some sort of rng as is with everything. Like sure you can either get a t7b pull or a t4a pull. But what i dont get is that even if two players get the same pull (eg. T4a) one of them gets a full one and the other gets 25%.

It makes no sense in my mind, PLEASE change my mind cause this might be my last raids with how my rng has been, that a person with 60m points gets 10 valiant crystals and backup strolls after the team and gets a titan crystal..

Im open to conversation i want a constructive genuine reason how this is fair to the alliance members paying the same entry price

Aleor

In short — gambling is addictive, rng = gamble, and gambling is very profitable.

Somebody could argue that in a long run rng averages out, but it's clearly not the case with raids, as you only get to do them once per month. Don't worry about it too much, the rewards will be more or less outdated in couple of months

Wolf911

It’s absolutely NOT fair I would go further and say it’s like they are making a fool out of whole player base

I would love to get an explanation from Kabam why they thought it would be good idea to make these rewards RNG

Let’s look at other game modes

story content / other end game content

there is RNG aspect with crystals, catalysts, awakening gem crystals and rank up gem crystals which is the class of the obtained material

but everyone who completes and explores gets the same amount of resources

alliance wars

every alliance that wins gets the same rewards as any other alliance that won ( in the same tier ) same rewards for losing alliances - no RNG on the rewards itself

regular alliance quests

every alliance that explores same AQ map gets the same glory rewards - no RNG involved

BGs

the rewards for getting the same amount of medals are same for any player

if one is pushing higher in GC they get higher rewards - again no RNG in the rewards

so why in RAIDS which is supposed to be ENDGAME content there is this RNG aspect involved?

Just make these rewards chests into selectors

for example make the first chest be a selector between

4 t6b
4t3a
1 full t6cc

simple as that everyone can CHOOSE what they want.

SirGamesBond

These chests always reminds me of the war seasons crystals. -You know what I'm talking about.

Same investment but DISCRIMINATING rewards.

Beerus2Strong

Wolf911 said:

It’s absolutely NOT fair I would go further and say it’s like they are making a fool out of whole player base

I would love to get an explanation from Kabam why they thought it would be good idea to make these rewards RNG

Let’s look at other game modes

story content / other end game content

there is RNG aspect with crystals, catalysts, awakening gem crystals and rank up gem crystals which is the class of the obtained material

but everyone who completes and explores gets the same amount of resources

alliance wars

every alliance that wins gets the same rewards as any other alliance that won ( in the same tier ) same rewards for losing alliances - no RNG on the rewards itself

regular alliance quests

every alliance that explores same AQ map gets the same glory rewards - no RNG involved

BGs

the rewards for getting the same amount of medals are same for any player

if one is pushing higher in GC they get higher rewards - again no RNG in the rewards

so why in RAIDS which is supposed to be ENDGAME content there is this RNG aspect involved?

Just make these rewards chests into selectors

for example make the first chest be a selector between

4 t6b
4t3a
1 full t6cc

simple as that everyone can CHOOSE what they want.

Now that would justify the amount of resources it takes to enter raids.

CesarSV7

If they don't want to change rng in a competitive game mode, believe me, they care less about changing rng during raids rewards.

I am not saying I agree with it, it's actually the opposite. However at this point, we can't really expect anything from them. (Aside from sales and bugs of course).

captain_rogers

You're spot on. I'm okay to pull t4a, t7b or whatever in the crystal. But let it be in uniform amounts for all players.

Eakomo

None, the rewards could just be the same for completing and exploring raids for everyone or based on score.

but my guess is so they don't have to fix a reward for each summoner no matter the level they are at

Dicedicedicedice

Such high investment end game content should not be RNG based. Nightmare is a hard case for guaranteed 7tb, AG shards.

Monubean

But this is all kabam knows, all they know and are known for is for being a casino. They are legit a casino, under the guise of a gaming company. Everything in the game is a slot machine (chance).

BeastDad

There is absolutely ZERO justification that people working on the same path pull different rewards.

That is slimy at best.

Normax_X

Wolf911 said:

It’s absolutely NOT fair I would go further and say it’s like they are making a fool out of whole player base

I would love to get an explanation from Kabam why they thought it would be good idea to make these rewards RNG

Let’s look at other game modes

story content / other end game content

there is RNG aspect with crystals, catalysts, awakening gem crystals and rank up gem crystals which is the class of the obtained material

but everyone who completes and explores gets the same amount of resources

alliance wars

every alliance that wins gets the same rewards as any other alliance that won ( in the same tier ) same rewards for losing alliances - no RNG on the rewards itself

regular alliance quests

every alliance that explores same AQ map gets the same glory rewards - no RNG involved

BGs

the rewards for getting the same amount of medals are same for any player

if one is pushing higher in GC they get higher rewards - again no RNG in the rewards

so why in RAIDS which is supposed to be ENDGAME content there is this RNG aspect involved?

Just make these rewards chests into selectors

for example make the first chest be a selector between

4 t6b
4t3a
1 full t6cc

simple as that everyone can CHOOSE what they want.

selectors are the easiest way around this yeah or making them equal amounts but random types of pulls if they REALLY need to keep rng involved

KILLMФИGЕЯ

I pulled 10 valiant crystals on all 3 chest in nightmare raids…..it sure lived up to its name lol yay rng

Nemesis_17

Aleor said:

In short — gambling is addictive, rng = gamble, and gambling is very profitable.

Somebody could argue that in a long run rng averages out, but it's clearly not the case with raids, as you only get to do them once per month. Don't worry about it too much, the rewards will be more or less outdated in couple of months

The addiction argument doesn’t work either because there’s no way to buy more rewards chests. Rng is addictive when there’s a chance at a jackpot which makes you wanna buy more chances at it.

In this analogy the example would be trying to entice you to play raids more for a chance at the jackpot, but I think we can all see it’s only had the opposite effect.

ButteredPopcorn8008

So

DNA3000

Aleor said:

In short — gambling is addictive, rng = gamble, and gambling is very profitable.

Somebody could argue that in a long run rng averages out, but it's clearly not the case with raids, as you only get to do them once per month. Don't worry about it too much, the rewards will be more or less outdated in couple of months

The question no one asks is why is gambling a potentially addictive activity. If RNG is bad, and everyone knows it is bad, then how does it become addictive? No one gets addicted to striking their foreheads with hammers.

The reason why gambling has that addictive quality is because of perception. People perceive random rewards to be better. A slot machine could hand you 95 cents back for every dollar you spend, but no one would ever play it. A slot machine that hands you back nothing 19 times and then 19 dollars on the twentieth spin is returning the same 95 cents to the dollar, but people will line up to play it for the chance to get 19 dollars back on a one dollar spin. The perceived return is far higher than the actual return.

Even games that you buy for a fixed price and come in a box you take home, with zero monetization and zero chance to make any more money from you ever again use this perception to elevate the perceived value of the rewards you earn in the game. Video game rewards only have the value players perceive them to have, so perception is everything.

In games with economic balance concerns, leveraging this perception is even more valuable. Every reward you add to the game creates progression and dilution concerns. RNG rewards provide the most perceived return per unit of material reward added to the game. That doesn't mean all rewards should be completely random, but it is the primary motivation for game designers to use RNG rewards in games like this. This can take dark turns in games that over leverage or over monetize certain kinds of RNG rewards. RNG is not all good. But there is a huge upside to them that has nothing directly to do with gambling, or addiction, or greed. Even in games where gambling is impossible, addiction is impossible, and monetization is impossible, game designers still use RNG for its perceptual upsides. It is simply a very powerful reward design tool.

Dungeons and Dragons had random lootboxes in 1974 when people were playing that game with pencils and graph paper. The motivation for using random lootboxes in game design predates monetized video games by almost half a century.

I am *not* arguing that the Raid rewards are balanced or fair. Nor am I even arguing that the path rewards *should* be random. I'm simply saying the reason why they are random by default is unlikely to be nefarious. It isn't that the designers need to come up with a reason to make them random, it is usually the reverse. There has to be a compelling reason why they shouldn't be random that overrides all of the benefits of them being random, and the general "random isn't fair" is not sufficiently compelling. If it were, that would equally apply to all rewards. This game has clearly decided that "random isn't fair" is not a strong enough reason to remove randomness from rewards.

SirGamesBond

Monubean said:

But this is all kabam knows, all they know and are known for is for being a casino. They are legit a casino, under the guise of a gaming company. Everything in the game is a slot machine (chance).

C- Here's our platinum diamond card. Buy it for best value.
Random Customer- Sir, please take my money.
C- Sir, roll a dice to see if you win a bottle of Cognac or a glass of coke. **Wins tap water.
Thank you for for choosing us, it was a pleasure serving you.

BringPopcorn

It doesn't stop players from trying over and over...

Normax_X

.

Normax_X

DNA3000 said:

Aleor said:

In short — gambling is addictive, rng = gamble, and gambling is very profitable.

Somebody could argue that in a long run rng averages out, but it's clearly not the case with raids, as you only get to do them once per month. Don't worry about it too much, the rewards will be more or less outdated in couple of months

There has to be a compelling reason why they shouldn't be random that overrides all of the benefits of them being random, and the general "random isn't fair" is not sufficiently compelling.

I agree that it isnt nefarious, but dont you think players being so sick of the chests being rng should at least provide them with a hint that maybe we shouldn do this? Why isnt that the compelling reason they need? they moved away from the AW crystal because people were getting such different rewards for the same effort, only to bring it back for raids

They can keep the rng whatever, but the discrepancy is insane. 10 valiant crystals vs a titan crystal. 10 valiant crystals vs a t4a. People are already burnt out from nightmare raids on day 1 cause it just didnt seem worth any of the effort we put into it since backup can get an ultron and another player gets 10 5*s. That should at least give them a reason to rethink it, not make it even worse with this new "rewards update"

DNA3000

Normax_X said:

DNA3000 said:

Aleor said:

In short — gambling is addictive, rng = gamble, and gambling is very profitable.

Somebody could argue that in a long run rng averages out, but it's clearly not the case with raids, as you only get to do them once per month. Don't worry about it too much, the rewards will be more or less outdated in couple of months

There has to be a compelling reason why they shouldn't be random that overrides all of the benefits of them being random, and the general "random isn't fair" is not sufficiently compelling.

I agree that it isnt nefarious, but dont you think players being so sick of the chests being rng should at least provide them with a hint that maybe we shouldn do this?

Name me a situation in the game where players aren't complaining about randomness in the rewards? Everyone knows that people will complain when rewards are random. All the while continuing to choose the games that implement them while deserting the ones that don't because they complain about the randomness when they don't get the best possible reward, but they straight up quit games where that isn't at least a possibility.

Nobody thinks McDonalds food is healthy or high quality. But they buy tons of it. McDonalds makes what people will pay for, not what they will congratulate them for. McDonalds actually attempted to make their menu more healthy in the 90s. It was a commercial disaster. People *said* they wanted healthy options, and then didn't buy them. Because the people who said they wanted healthy options were not going to McDonalds to get it.

Again, this is not a specific statement about Raid chests themselves. This is about the general principle that the raid chests aren't special until someone proves they are. And saying people complain about it is like saying water is wet. More players complain about champion crystal randomness than complain about raid chests by several orders of magnitude.

Volume doesn't matter. Signal matters. And when the playerbase complains about everything all of the time, the signal to noise ratio is very low. But the response to this tends to be just complain louder.

Normax_X

DNA3000 said:

Normax_X said:

DNA3000 said:

Aleor said:

In short — gambling is addictive, rng = gamble, and gambling is very profitable.

Somebody could argue that in a long run rng averages out, but it's clearly not the case with raids, as you only get to do them once per month. Don't worry about it too much, the rewards will be more or less outdated in couple of months

There has to be a compelling reason why they shouldn't be random that overrides all of the benefits of them being random, and the general "random isn't fair" is not sufficiently compelling.

I agree that it isnt nefarious, but dont you think players being so sick of the chests being rng should at least provide them with a hint that maybe we shouldn do this?

Name me a situation in the game where players aren't complaining about randomness in the rewards? Everyone knows that people will complain when rewards are random. All the while continuing to choose the games that implement them while deserting the ones that don't because they complain about the randomness when they don't get the best possible reward, but they straight up quit games where that isn't at least a possibility.

Nobody thinks McDonalds food is healthy or high quality. But they buy tons of it. McDonalds makes what people will pay for, not what they will congratulate them for. McDonalds actually attempted to make their menu more healthy in the 90s. It was a commercial disaster. People *said* they wanted healthy options, and then didn't buy them. Because the people who said they wanted healthy options were not going to McDonalds to get it.

Again, this is not a specific statement about Raid chests themselves. This is about the general principle that the raid chests aren't special until someone proves they are. And saying people complain about it is like saying water is wet. More players complain about champion crystal randomness than complain about raid chests by several orders of magnitude.

Volume doesn't matter. Signal matters. And when the playerbase complains about everything all of the time, the signal to noise ratio is very low. But the response to this tends to be just complain louder.

im gonna have to disagree on this one. Randomness and fairness are different in this situation

We both paid 180 tickets
We both did 3 fights and a boss
We both dealt with the same bugs cant forget that part
I should not get a titan crystal when you're getting 10 valiant crystals. Same with war, aq, eq, bgs, ordeal, epoch, necro, whatever content u look at nothing is as rng based and is as unfair as playing raids

Idc if people complain about everything, when they tell us the feedback is being "passed on to the team" when we first ever complained during the initial raids, im getting no reason to believe they actually are. If anything in nightmare raids the discrepancy is even higher

Eakomo

DNA3000 said:

Aleor said:

In short — gambling is addictive, rng = gamble, and gambling is very profitable.

Somebody could argue that in a long run rng averages out, but it's clearly not the case with raids, as you only get to do them once per month. Don't worry about it too much, the rewards will be more or less outdated in couple of months

The question no one asks is why is gambling a potentially addictive activity. If RNG is bad, and everyone knows it is bad, then how does it become addictive? No one gets addicted to striking their foreheads with hammers.

The reason why gambling has that addictive quality is because of perception. People perceive random rewards to be better. A slot machine could hand you 95 cents back for every dollar you spend, but no one would ever play it. A slot machine that hands you back nothing 19 times and then 19 dollars on the twentieth spin is returning the same 95 cents to the dollar, but people will line up to play it for the chance to get 19 dollars back on a one dollar spin. The perceived return is far higher than the actual return.

Even games that you buy for a fixed price and come in a box you take home, with zero monetization and zero chance to make any more money from you ever again use this perception to elevate the perceived value of the rewards you earn in the game. Video game rewards only have the value players perceive them to have, so perception is everything.

In games with economic balance concerns, leveraging this perception is even more valuable. Every reward you add to the game creates progression and dilution concerns. RNG rewards provide the most perceived return per unit of material reward added to the game. That doesn't mean all rewards should be completely random, but it is the primary motivation for game designers to use RNG rewards in games like this. This can take dark turns in games that over leverage or over monetize certain kinds of RNG rewards. RNG is not all good. But there is a huge upside to them that has nothing directly to do with gambling, or addiction, or greed. Even in games where gambling is impossible, addiction is impossible, and monetization is impossible, game designers still use RNG for its perceptual upsides. It is simply a very powerful reward design tool.

Dungeons and Dragons had random lootboxes in 1974 when people were playing that game with pencils and graph paper. The motivation for using random lootboxes in game design predates monetized video games by almost half a century.

I am *not* arguing that the Raid rewards are balanced or fair. Nor am I even arguing that the path rewards *should* be random. I'm simply saying the reason why they are random by default is unlikely to be nefarious. It isn't that the designers need to come up with a reason to make them random, it is usually the reverse. There has to be a compelling reason why they shouldn't be random that overrides all of the benefits of them being random, and the general "random isn't fair" is not sufficiently compelling. If it were, that would equally apply to all rewards. This game has clearly decided that "random isn't fair" is not a strong enough reason to remove randomness from rewards.

to serve as a devil's advocate on the last paragraph, just why shouldn't the rewards be fixed???

the only places we see RNG rewards in the game are usually with event crystals spending or not, i.e. banquet, gifting and also champion crystals.

so if then we have to defend to having fixed rewards for a fairly fixed game mode with regular cadence, why shouldn't all the content in the game also have rng rewards, let the lowest difficulty eq have a chance to give a titan.

There has to be a compelling reason why they shouldn't be random that overrides all of the benefits of them being random, and the general "random isn't fair" is not sufficiently compelling. If it were, that would equally apply to all rewards. This game has clearly decided that "random isn't fair" is not a strong enough reason to remove randomness from rewards.

I guess we should expect loot boxes for the rest of act 9 since fixing the rewards for everyone doing the quest is too valuable and thus have to lower the overall value by just gambling on chest instead.

I personally just don't see how they can justify lootboxes for the effort it takes to complete it

Razorlord7

@DNA3000 Back to farming daily disagrees i see.

JESUSCHRIST

Same with Epoch when you complete 6 paths and you can't choose which class rank up gem you want

And the same defenders in forums will speak up to defend RNG as something good

People lie to themselves so they don't get the rewards they deserve for doing difficult content

JESUSCHRIST

For anyone defending RNG, you can spend money buying crystals and not getting the champion you want

But I won't

I go to a 5* hotel with a booking reservation for the room that I want, not a random room that the hotel staff pick by spinning a wheel

Congrats you hit the Presidential suite but that's not how it works in real life hotel industry

Dicedicedicedice

Plz tell y is this even part of nightmare RNG? After defeating that apoc?

What is wrong with u guys?

Honestly guys. Plz do better before u waste a great game. This is unacceptable.

JESUSCHRIST

Dicedicedicedice said:

Plz tell y is this even part of nightmare RNG? After defeating that apoc?

What is wrong with u guys?

Honestly guys. Plz do better before u waste a great game. This is unacceptable.

Are you valiant?

What is 6* shards doing in nightmare raids? Oh right it's a game from Kabam

SirGamesBond

JESUSCHRIST said:

Dicedicedicedice said:

Plz tell y is this even part of nightmare RNG? After defeating that apoc?

What is wrong with u guys?

Honestly guys. Plz do better before u waste a great game. This is unacceptable.

Are you valiant?

What is 6* shards doing in nightmare raids? Oh right it's a game from Kabam

It's the option you get after defeating Apoc, between 'light essence' vs 'trash alliance trash quest trash raid trash crystal'.

Masquirade

I feel like I'm the only person that doesn't mind getting the 10 Valiant crystals? I don't buy them at all so a few rolls of the dice is exciting to me.

CesarSV7

DNA3000 said:

Aleor said:

In short — gambling is addictive, rng = gamble, and gambling is very profitable.

Somebody could argue that in a long run rng averages out, but it's clearly not the case with raids, as you only get to do them once per month. Don't worry about it too much, the rewards will be more or less outdated in couple of months

The question no one asks is why is gambling a potentially addictive activity. If RNG is bad, and everyone knows it is bad, then how does it become addictive? No one gets addicted to striking their foreheads with hammers.

The reason why gambling has that addictive quality is because of perception. People perceive random rewards to be better. A slot machine could hand you 95 cents back for every dollar you spend, but no one would ever play it. A slot machine that hands you back nothing 19 times and then 19 dollars on the twentieth spin is returning the same 95 cents to the dollar, but people will line up to play it for the chance to get 19 dollars back on a one dollar spin. The perceived return is far higher than the actual return.

Even games that you buy for a fixed price and come in a box you take home, with zero monetization and zero chance to make any more money from you ever again use this perception to elevate the perceived value of the rewards you earn in the game. Video game rewards only have the value players perceive them to have, so perception is everything.

In games with economic balance concerns, leveraging this perception is even more valuable. Every reward you add to the game creates progression and dilution concerns. RNG rewards provide the most perceived return per unit of material reward added to the game. That doesn't mean all rewards should be completely random, but it is the primary motivation for game designers to use RNG rewards in games like this. This can take dark turns in games that over leverage or over monetize certain kinds of RNG rewards. RNG is not all good. But there is a huge upside to them that has nothing directly to do with gambling, or addiction, or greed. Even in games where gambling is impossible, addiction is impossible, and monetization is impossible, game designers still use RNG for its perceptual upsides. It is simply a very powerful reward design tool.

Dungeons and Dragons had random lootboxes in 1974 when people were playing that game with pencils and graph paper. The motivation for using random lootboxes in game design predates monetized video games by almost half a century.

I am *not* arguing that the Raid rewards are balanced or fair. Nor am I even arguing that the path rewards *should* be random. I'm simply saying the reason why they are random by default is unlikely to be nefarious. It isn't that the designers need to come up with a reason to make them random, it is usually the reverse. There has to be a compelling reason why they shouldn't be random that overrides all of the benefits of them being random, and the general "random isn't fair" is not sufficiently compelling. If it were, that would equally apply to all rewards. This game has clearly decided that "random isn't fair" is not a strong enough reason to remove randomness from rewards.

We all understand RNG is an essential part of a gacha game like mcoc, and also understand the addictive components of gambling. The problem is how randomness is implemented in this game which is simply crazy.

Rewards should be seen as a transaction for completing a quest or a game mode and it should have the same value for all players because we are accomplishing the same things. That is fairness.

The gambling aspect of earned rewards should be focused on what we obtain from those rewards with set values while playing the crystal oppening mini games: Random champions from Titan crystals, random champs from Basic crystals, random class rank up gems, random class awakening gems or random class sig stones, etc.

Casinos don't base their randomness on giving customers random value for their money, randomness takes place while playing the slot machines.