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Deep Dive: High Evolutionary

EdisonLawEdisonLaw Member Posts: 11,077 ★★★★★
in General Discussion
https://youtu.be/GL01inx7z1k?si=4nsBAibtlxBawi4B

The next science defender is here
«1

Comments

  • Darkraw346Darkraw346 Member Posts: 2,738 ★★★★★
    He's so cool!
    Couldn't care less for him being a defender, but I really like his Devolve and Aspect of evolution mechanics! I wonder what is the comics refrence to the Evolutionery field tho
  • EdisonLawEdisonLaw Member Posts: 11,077 ★★★★★
    Darkraw346 said:

    He's so cool!
    Couldn't care less for him being a defender, but I really like his Devolve and Aspect of evolution mechanics! I wonder what is the comics refrence to the Evolutionery field tho

    Well he’s known for evolving lesser beings as in the comics, his goal is to create the perfect being
  • Darkraw346Darkraw346 Member Posts: 2,738 ★★★★★
    EdisonLaw said:

    Darkraw346 said:

    He's so cool!
    Couldn't care less for him being a defender, but I really like his Devolve and Aspect of evolution mechanics! I wonder what is the comics refrence to the Evolutionery field tho

    Well he’s known for evolving lesser beings as in the comics, his goal is to create the perfect being
    Yeah but I mean if there's anything specific and similar to the Evolutinery field in the comics. Just wonder about this concept of a mechanic
  • EdisonLawEdisonLaw Member Posts: 11,077 ★★★★★
    Gentsy12 said:

    Another 5/5 defender combined with the fact he’s the new top prestige champ. Gonna be a lot of whaling going on for him.

    Makes sense, he’s the top prize of the FF recruitment event
  • TheInfintyTheInfinty Member Posts: 1,515 ★★★★★
    Science defender was needed tbf. Besides like photon what other elite level science defenders are there. Science by FAR has the worst defenders so i do like science getting a new good defender for the first time in a while.
  • EdisonLawEdisonLaw Member Posts: 11,077 ★★★★★
    Squidopus said:

    NONYABIZZ said:

    Love that we're getting a new sci defender but i am unable to put my dissatisfaction and anger about how designers practically "CHEAT" when they make 5/5 defenders. Its so crazy.
    Undermine was supposed to be the upgrade from true accuracy as it is not affected by AAR but now they wanna bypass WHAT THEY CREATED with an autoblocker who practically stops champs from gaining undermine. LOL. His autoblock can't even be defeated by DAAR basically turning off his skill counters. If that ain't cheating I don't know what is honestly. How are they going to produce a counter it'll probably be something stupid and oddly specific like NTW and her counter evade. Unless they create a skill champ that is completely immune to debuffs and has undermine or is nearly permanently unblockable. Ohh well they'll probably think of something after all "unfair mechanics leave room for new design spaces and mechanics".

    Defenders SHOULD NOT COUNTER THE MECHANIC YOU'VE ALREADY IMPLEMENTED IN YOUR GAME TO COUNTER THEM.

    Now he has a new debuff called desolve which LITERALLY turns off EVERYTHING YOU'D USE TO ATTACK HIM attack rating Crit rating, crit damage, armor pen you name it. I hate this serpent design mindset where defenders have to be immune to most common sources of damage.

    Ohh well at least the desolve on paper should be avoidable as long as he doesn't get pushed to sp2. He's going to be A HUGE PROBLEM on that combat power node or LITERALLY ANY POWERGAIN NODE WHICH HAPPENS to be EVERY BATTLEGROUND META.

    5/5 defenders DO NOT HAVE TO SHUT OUT 95% OF THE CHAMPION POOL. This design philosophy is just so tiring.

    1) Undermine is as subject to AAR as True Accuracy is, it’s just that there’s less AAR effects like Arcade and the True Lies node that directly target it.
    2) High Evolutionary doesn’t even counter True Accuracy, he blocks True Sense. Go nuts with your True Accuracy and True Strike champs like Odin, Bullseye, Medusa, etc.
    3) Devolve is 1.6% potency, to a max of 16% at max stacks. It affects a lot of things but it’s not particularly strong, he’s no Yelena when it comes to damage reduction.

    And to the larger point, “cheating” in design is a subjective measure. What works, works. If you want a difficult challenge, you have to block off at least some of the easy autopilot counterplay. High Evolutionary looks tough enough to be worthy of a 5/5 defender rating, but I’m not seeing anything here that makes him seem unfair.
    To me he seems more like an Arnim Zola type of threat rather than the next Serpent.
  • ZuroZuro Member Posts: 2,985 ★★★★★
    Squidopus said:

    NONYABIZZ said:

    Love that we're getting a new sci defender but i am unable to put my dissatisfaction and anger about how designers practically "CHEAT" when they make 5/5 defenders. Its so crazy.
    Undermine was supposed to be the upgrade from true accuracy as it is not affected by AAR but now they wanna bypass WHAT THEY CREATED with an autoblocker who practically stops champs from gaining undermine. LOL. His autoblock can't even be defeated by DAAR basically turning off his skill counters. If that ain't cheating I don't know what is honestly. How are they going to produce a counter it'll probably be something stupid and oddly specific like NTW and her counter evade. Unless they create a skill champ that is completely immune to debuffs and has undermine or is nearly permanently unblockable. Ohh well they'll probably think of something after all "unfair mechanics leave room for new design spaces and mechanics".

    Defenders SHOULD NOT COUNTER THE MECHANIC YOU'VE ALREADY IMPLEMENTED IN YOUR GAME TO COUNTER THEM.

    Now he has a new debuff called desolve which LITERALLY turns off EVERYTHING YOU'D USE TO ATTACK HIM attack rating Crit rating, crit damage, armor pen you name it. I hate this serpent design mindset where defenders have to be immune to most common sources of damage.

    Ohh well at least the desolve on paper should be avoidable as long as he doesn't get pushed to sp2. He's going to be A HUGE PROBLEM on that combat power node or LITERALLY ANY POWERGAIN NODE WHICH HAPPENS to be EVERY BATTLEGROUND META.

    5/5 defenders DO NOT HAVE TO SHUT OUT 95% OF THE CHAMPION POOL. This design philosophy is just so tiring.

    1) Undermine is as subject to AAR as True Accuracy is, it’s just that there’s less AAR effects like Arcade and the True Lies node that directly target it.
    2) High Evolutionary doesn’t even counter True Accuracy, he blocks True Sense. Go nuts with your True Accuracy and True Strike champs like Odin, Bullseye, Medusa, etc.
    3) Devolve is 1.6% potency, to a max of 16% at max stacks. It affects a lot of things but it’s not particularly strong, he’s no Yelena when it comes to damage reduction.

    And to the larger point, “cheating” in design is a subjective measure. What works, works. If you want a difficult challenge, you have to block off at least some of the easy autopilot counterplay. High Evolutionary looks tough enough to be worthy of a 5/5 defender rating, but I’m not seeing anything here that makes him seem unfair.
    I don't think he will be as insane as Yelena, but the devolve paired with inequity will make him Photon-like annoying
  • EdisonLawEdisonLaw Member Posts: 11,077 ★★★★★
    Gentsy12 said:

    I understand why they created a 5/5 science defender but honestly on first glance he seems more limited in options than serpent had at release.

    I don’t think he’ll be as strong as Serpent
  • EdisonLawEdisonLaw Member Posts: 11,077 ★★★★★
    Darkraw346 said:

    EdisonLaw said:

    Darkraw346 said:

    He's so cool!
    Couldn't care less for him being a defender, but I really like his Devolve and Aspect of evolution mechanics! I wonder what is the comics refrence to the Evolutionery field tho

    Well he’s known for evolving lesser beings as in the comics, his goal is to create the perfect being
    Yeah but I mean if there's anything specific and similar to the Evolutinery field in the comics. Just wonder about this concept of a mechanic
    I don’t think he specifically has that in the comics, but he does have an evolutionary accelerator

    Plus he’s pretty powerful in comics as well

    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/respect-the-high-evolutionary-the-worldmaker-compl-2046709/

  • EdisonLawEdisonLaw Member Posts: 11,077 ★★★★★
    Wolf911 said:

    Lots of words to say “here’s the new science 5/5 defender who is going to screw you over the course of next year or so”

    So basically the next photon
  • EdisonLawEdisonLaw Member Posts: 11,077 ★★★★★
    Devolve and aspect of evolution sound interesting, they may be on future champs as well
  • captain_rogerscaptain_rogers Member Posts: 13,448 ★★★★★
    Squidopus said:

    NONYABIZZ said:

    Love that we're getting a new sci defender but i am unable to put my dissatisfaction and anger about how designers practically "CHEAT" when they make 5/5 defenders. Its so crazy.
    Undermine was supposed to be the upgrade from true accuracy as it is not affected by AAR but now they wanna bypass WHAT THEY CREATED with an autoblocker who practically stops champs from gaining undermine. LOL. His autoblock can't even be defeated by DAAR basically turning off his skill counters. If that ain't cheating I don't know what is honestly. How are they going to produce a counter it'll probably be something stupid and oddly specific like NTW and her counter evade. Unless they create a skill champ that is completely immune to debuffs and has undermine or is nearly permanently unblockable. Ohh well they'll probably think of something after all "unfair mechanics leave room for new design spaces and mechanics".

    Defenders SHOULD NOT COUNTER THE MECHANIC YOU'VE ALREADY IMPLEMENTED IN YOUR GAME TO COUNTER THEM.

    Now he has a new debuff called desolve which LITERALLY turns off EVERYTHING YOU'D USE TO ATTACK HIM attack rating Crit rating, crit damage, armor pen you name it. I hate this serpent design mindset where defenders have to be immune to most common sources of damage.

    Ohh well at least the desolve on paper should be avoidable as long as he doesn't get pushed to sp2. He's going to be A HUGE PROBLEM on that combat power node or LITERALLY ANY POWERGAIN NODE WHICH HAPPENS to be EVERY BATTLEGROUND META.

    5/5 defenders DO NOT HAVE TO SHUT OUT 95% OF THE CHAMPION POOL. This design philosophy is just so tiring.

    1) Undermine is as subject to AAR as True Accuracy is, it’s just that there’s less AAR effects like Arcade and the True Lies node that directly target it.
    2) High Evolutionary doesn’t even counter True Accuracy, he blocks True Sense. Go nuts with your True Accuracy and True Strike champs like Odin, Bullseye, Medusa, etc.
    3) Devolve is 1.6% potency, to a max of 16% at max stacks. It affects a lot of things but it’s not particularly strong, he’s no Yelena when it comes to damage reduction.

    And to the larger point, “cheating” in design is a subjective measure. What works, works. If you want a difficult challenge, you have to block off at least some of the easy autopilot counterplay. High Evolutionary looks tough enough to be worthy of a 5/5 defender rating, but I’m not seeing anything here that makes him seem unfair.
    I agree but making his autoblock immune to aar is a dirty move. Unblockable hits don't reduce combo count as well. So basically have to perfectly play mix master all the time or get screwed, there's just no way to counter him atm.
  • captain_rogerscaptain_rogers Member Posts: 13,448 ★★★★★
    NONYABIZZ said:

    altavista said:

    NONYABIZZ said:

    Ohh well they'll probably think of something after all "unfair mechanics leave room for new design spaces and mechanics".

    To add insult to injury, going Unblockable is penalized as well.

    Now the floodgates are open for Evade that ignore Pursuit and Unstoppable that ignores Grit.


    LOL!!! Create new mechanics that do not work with AA then just throw them right out the gate when a new defender comes to town. Love this.
    Not to mention up until now champs can only either reduce ability accuracy of true effects or nullify them (if they are a buff). But now opponents can outright invalidate true strike and undermine effects (like invalidate against prowess effects). This tech can allow them toe xtend this to every effect if required.
  • EdisonLawEdisonLaw Member Posts: 11,077 ★★★★★
    altavista said:

    NONYABIZZ said:

    Ohh well they'll probably think of something after all "unfair mechanics leave room for new design spaces and mechanics".

    To add insult to injury, going Unblockable is penalized as well.

    Now the floodgates are open for Evade that ignore Pursuit and Unstoppable that ignores Grit.


    So I can’t use Adam Warlock then?
  • SquidopusSquidopus Member Posts: 1,029 ★★★★★
    captain_rogers said:

    Squidopus said:

    NONYABIZZ said:

    Love that we're getting a new sci defender but i am unable to put my dissatisfaction and anger about how designers practically "CHEAT" when they make 5/5 defenders. Its so crazy.
    Undermine was supposed to be the upgrade from true accuracy as it is not affected by AAR but now they wanna bypass WHAT THEY CREATED with an autoblocker who practically stops champs from gaining undermine. LOL. His autoblock can't even be defeated by DAAR basically turning off his skill counters. If that ain't cheating I don't know what is honestly. How are they going to produce a counter it'll probably be something stupid and oddly specific like NTW and her counter evade. Unless they create a skill champ that is completely immune to debuffs and has undermine or is nearly permanently unblockable. Ohh well they'll probably think of something after all "unfair mechanics leave room for new design spaces and mechanics".

    Defenders SHOULD NOT COUNTER THE MECHANIC YOU'VE ALREADY IMPLEMENTED IN YOUR GAME TO COUNTER THEM.

    Now he has a new debuff called desolve which LITERALLY turns off EVERYTHING YOU'D USE TO ATTACK HIM attack rating Crit rating, crit damage, armor pen you name it. I hate this serpent design mindset where defenders have to be immune to most common sources of damage.

    Ohh well at least the desolve on paper should be avoidable as long as he doesn't get pushed to sp2. He's going to be A HUGE PROBLEM on that combat power node or LITERALLY ANY POWERGAIN NODE WHICH HAPPENS to be EVERY BATTLEGROUND META.

    5/5 defenders DO NOT HAVE TO SHUT OUT 95% OF THE CHAMPION POOL. This design philosophy is just so tiring.

    1) Undermine is as subject to AAR as True Accuracy is, it’s just that there’s less AAR effects like Arcade and the True Lies node that directly target it.
    2) High Evolutionary doesn’t even counter True Accuracy, he blocks True Sense. Go nuts with your True Accuracy and True Strike champs like Odin, Bullseye, Medusa, etc.
    3) Devolve is 1.6% potency, to a max of 16% at max stacks. It affects a lot of things but it’s not particularly strong, he’s no Yelena when it comes to damage reduction.

    And to the larger point, “cheating” in design is a subjective measure. What works, works. If you want a difficult challenge, you have to block off at least some of the easy autopilot counterplay. High Evolutionary looks tough enough to be worthy of a 5/5 defender rating, but I’m not seeing anything here that makes him seem unfair.
    I agree but making his autoblock immune to aar is a dirty move. Unblockable hits don't reduce combo count as well. So basically have to perfectly play mix master all the time or get screwed, there's just no way to counter him atm.
    Keep in mind that Combo Detonation checks the combo meter, not just how many hits you land. Multi-hit basic champs, QS and Northstar especially, will have an easier time with it. More importantly, there’s a number of skill champs that have ways of directly increasing their combo. Black Cat and especially Okoye I imagine will rinse High Evolutionary if you can manage the relatively simple task of baiting sp1s and alternating basics, and buffed Patriot next month may be able to do a similar job if all goes well there.

    We’ll see how it plays out, but I do think that there’s also decent odds some of the stronger nukes out there who don’t mind basically playing mix master can just kill High Evolutionary before Combo Detonation even gets the chance to expire, at least in BGs, which reduces the stress of needing a counter that can manage that.
  • captain_rogerscaptain_rogers Member Posts: 13,448 ★★★★★
    Squidopus said:

    captain_rogers said:

    Squidopus said:

    NONYABIZZ said:

    Love that we're getting a new sci defender but i am unable to put my dissatisfaction and anger about how designers practically "CHEAT" when they make 5/5 defenders. Its so crazy.
    Undermine was supposed to be the upgrade from true accuracy as it is not affected by AAR but now they wanna bypass WHAT THEY CREATED with an autoblocker who practically stops champs from gaining undermine. LOL. His autoblock can't even be defeated by DAAR basically turning off his skill counters. If that ain't cheating I don't know what is honestly. How are they going to produce a counter it'll probably be something stupid and oddly specific like NTW and her counter evade. Unless they create a skill champ that is completely immune to debuffs and has undermine or is nearly permanently unblockable. Ohh well they'll probably think of something after all "unfair mechanics leave room for new design spaces and mechanics".

    Defenders SHOULD NOT COUNTER THE MECHANIC YOU'VE ALREADY IMPLEMENTED IN YOUR GAME TO COUNTER THEM.

    Now he has a new debuff called desolve which LITERALLY turns off EVERYTHING YOU'D USE TO ATTACK HIM attack rating Crit rating, crit damage, armor pen you name it. I hate this serpent design mindset where defenders have to be immune to most common sources of damage.

    Ohh well at least the desolve on paper should be avoidable as long as he doesn't get pushed to sp2. He's going to be A HUGE PROBLEM on that combat power node or LITERALLY ANY POWERGAIN NODE WHICH HAPPENS to be EVERY BATTLEGROUND META.

    5/5 defenders DO NOT HAVE TO SHUT OUT 95% OF THE CHAMPION POOL. This design philosophy is just so tiring.

    1) Undermine is as subject to AAR as True Accuracy is, it’s just that there’s less AAR effects like Arcade and the True Lies node that directly target it.
    2) High Evolutionary doesn’t even counter True Accuracy, he blocks True Sense. Go nuts with your True Accuracy and True Strike champs like Odin, Bullseye, Medusa, etc.
    3) Devolve is 1.6% potency, to a max of 16% at max stacks. It affects a lot of things but it’s not particularly strong, he’s no Yelena when it comes to damage reduction.

    And to the larger point, “cheating” in design is a subjective measure. What works, works. If you want a difficult challenge, you have to block off at least some of the easy autopilot counterplay. High Evolutionary looks tough enough to be worthy of a 5/5 defender rating, but I’m not seeing anything here that makes him seem unfair.
    I agree but making his autoblock immune to aar is a dirty move. Unblockable hits don't reduce combo count as well. So basically have to perfectly play mix master all the time or get screwed, there's just no way to counter him atm.
    Keep in mind that Combo Detonation checks the combo meter, not just how many hits you land. Multi-hit basic champs, QS and Northstar especially, will have an easier time with it. More importantly, there’s a number of skill champs that have ways of directly increasing their combo. Black Cat and especially Okoye I imagine will rinse High Evolutionary if you can manage the relatively simple task of baiting sp1s and alternating basics, and buffed Patriot next month may be able to do a similar job if all goes well there.

    We’ll see how it plays out, but I do think that there’s also decent odds some of the stronger nukes out there who don’t mind basically playing mix master can just kill High Evolutionary before Combo Detonation even gets the chance to expire, at least in BGs, which reduces the stress of needing a counter that can manage that.
    It's fine but how do you think the next counters/hard counters for high evol will be designed? Just having more combo increasing abilities (like okoye) or a champ with another way to counter autoblock (like true strike but with a different name) and few years again one champ will be immune to it. Just doesn't make sense lol.
  • WednesdayLengthWednesdayLength Member Posts: 3,231 ★★★★★
    NONYABIZZ said:

    Love that we're getting a new sci defender but i am unable to put my dissatisfaction and anger about how designers practically "CHEAT" when they make 5/5 defenders. Its so crazy.
    Undermine was supposed to be the upgrade from true accuracy as it is not affected by AAR but now they wanna bypass WHAT THEY CREATED with an autoblocker who practically stops champs from gaining undermine. LOL. His autoblock can't even be defeated by DAAR basically turning off his skill counters. If that ain't cheating I don't know what is honestly. How are they going to produce a counter it'll probably be something stupid and oddly specific like NTW and her counter evade. Unless they create a skill champ that is completely immune to debuffs and has undermine or is nearly permanently unblockable. Ohh well they'll probably think of something after all "unfair mechanics leave room for new design spaces and mechanics".

    Defenders SHOULD NOT COUNTER THE MECHANIC YOU'VE ALREADY IMPLEMENTED IN YOUR GAME TO COUNTER THEM.

    Now he has a new debuff called desolve which LITERALLY turns off EVERYTHING YOU'D USE TO ATTACK HIM attack rating Crit rating, crit damage, armor pen you name it. I hate this serpent design mindset where defenders have to be immune to most common sources of damage.

    Ohh well at least the desolve on paper should be avoidable as long as he doesn't get pushed to sp2. He's going to be A HUGE PROBLEM on that combat power node or LITERALLY ANY POWERGAIN NODE WHICH HAPPENS to be EVERY BATTLEGROUND META.

    5/5 defenders DO NOT HAVE TO SHUT OUT 95% OF THE CHAMPION POOL. This design philosophy is just so tiring.

    You can still use true strike and accuracy, they just made it so that cosmic options weren't ideal
  • WednesdayLengthWednesdayLength Member Posts: 3,231 ★★★★★
    captain_rogers said:

    NONYABIZZ said:

    altavista said:

    NONYABIZZ said:

    Ohh well they'll probably think of something after all "unfair mechanics leave room for new design spaces and mechanics".

    To add insult to injury, going Unblockable is penalized as well.

    Now the floodgates are open for Evade that ignore Pursuit and Unstoppable that ignores Grit.


    LOL!!! Create new mechanics that do not work with AA then just throw them right out the gate when a new defender comes to town. Love this.
    Not to mention up until now champs can only either reduce ability accuracy of true effects or nullify them (if they are a buff). But now opponents can outright invalidate true strike and undermine effects (like invalidate against prowess effects). This tech can allow them toe xtend this to every effect if required.
    Not true strike, just true sense
  • WednesdayLengthWednesdayLength Member Posts: 3,231 ★★★★★
    edited July 6
    He seems way stronger on offense than i was expecting, though it's very clear he was designed by the guy that made BRB given that their damage loop is near identical lmao
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