Why Archangel should NOT be changed

AsmodeyusAsmodeyus Posts: 218
edited June 2018 in General Discussion
So here is my breakdown and how I understand how the character works but I believe these are the reasons this change is not needed, or warranted.
Neurotoxin - Is a passive effect, thus the stun induced from a passive effect should be passive as well, and thus the only thing that can bypass a limber or any other stun reduction or immunity mastery. (Why? Because it makes the character completely and totally unique!) Here are some other reasons I've thought about.

To apply Neurotoxin you have to crit hit 1-4+ times to EVEN get the chance to apply a poison
Once bleed is applied, you then can ONLY apply poisons through blocked attacks, (means you still take some damage, regardless)
Then after you have a poison stack, now you have to repeat step one again to gain a SINGLE neurotoxin

So lets say you have perfect odds, Heavy (4 Bleeds), Block (One poison and you took some block damage), Heavy/Medium/Light (1 Neurotoxin application)
Now keep in mind this is perfect chances, crits all 4 hits, then another after block. Now wait, there's even more of a wait...
To get the neurotoxin stun, you then have to wait for Neurotoxin to EXPIRE!

That is a pretty hefty compound of actions to get a single application of Neurotoxin for a 1.5 second stun! In 1.5 seconds you MAYBE have a chance to get a single combo before the stun ends.

Now lets compare that to Iceman's passive damage (needs duped so using my encounters with 4* Iceman for this)
1st off, ONLY TWO characters can nullify this damage. (Sabertooth/Mephisto) Yes, you can cold snap the iceman too.... (we won't get into that, that's an entirely different discussion for a different time, probably entailing a lot of swearing)
Now the damage I have taken BOTH in quests, and Alliance war has been between 30-60% of my entire hp pool. SOMETIMES OVER HALF! Unless I have a regener/willpower/salve, etc, I'm probably dead if I took those off. (BTW pro tip, AA can't do SQUAT to Iceman with Neurotoxin) OH, and Coldsnap stops all auto evades. To add to this, there is Mephisto's Incinerate Aura that can only be countered by 3 champions, Vulture (Has to be duped), Iceman, Quake (bypasses it by passive damage) Yes he can burn himself.

So this brings me to:
Question 1 - How is 1.5 second PASSIVE stun anywhere comparable to 30-50% unblockable damage on all but TWO champions in the entire contest?

Question 2 - How is this in anyway considered anything other than a UNIQUE ability?

Here's why, here is a list of all the characters that CAN'T be neurotoxin'd - Ultron, Ultron OG, Vision, Vision OG, Nebula, Iceman, Medusa, Blackbolt, Kamala Khan, Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel, Ronan, Joe Fix It, Hulk, Abomination, Hyperion, She Hulk, Dormammu, Mephisto, Ghost Rider, Morningstar, Unstoppable Colossus, Colossus, Groot, King Groot, Luke Cage

Hard to Neurotoxin - Old Man Logan, Gambit, Beast, Blade, Rogue, Red Hulk, Kingpin, Agent Venom, Crossbones, Iron Paitriot, Karnak, Cable (Degen per bleed)

That is 26 Champions that absolutely CANNOT be neurotoxin'd and another 11 which are hard, and lastly 1 that makes you pay in damage back for even doing it! A total of 38 champions that can cause problems to Archangel AS HE IS NOW!

If anything, leaving him as is will and does encourage a bit more diversity in alliance war defense. Kamala Khan, Gambit, Beast, Joe Fix It, Blackbolt, Colossus, Groots, and She Hulks? Why? Cause that's at least 8 more that absolutely can't be Neurotoxin stunned.

Question 3 - Why make this change when it will subsequently hurt your ongoing push for diversity in Alliance wars? Why push this when sentineloids are all immune? Why shoot yourself in the foot more?

Question 4 - This in my understanding clearly qualifies for a rank down ticket if you continue the change as there is clearly 37 choices to place on stun immune nodes in war WHILE giving an increase in diversity. Keeping the change just reinforces the fact that these are absolutely and totally useless champions that really just clutter the rosters, cause anger and contempt, and more over, collect dust on the rosters. With Archangel able to bypass the stun immune node over HALF of those champions now have a fairly important use!

So let me hear from you devs, @Kabam Miike @Kabam Vydious @Kabam Zibiit

Comments

  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 7,044
    These are all reasons why you don't want it changed, but that's not the same thing as good reasons why it shouldn't be changed.

    The devs only need one reason to make the change, which overrides all others. A far as the current technology of the game is concerned, flagging a stun effect as a passive means the effect bypasses all immunities and resistances, which makes it literally impossible to create content that is immune to stun even if that is intended. An effect that doesn't obey the normal mechanical rules of the game in a way that breaks their content is something the developers are going to change over any and every objection. Period.
  • AsmodeyusAsmodeyus Posts: 218
    edited June 2018
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    These are all reasons why you don't want it changed, but that's not the same thing as good reasons why it shouldn't be changed.

    The devs only need one reason to make the change, which overrides all others. A far as the current technology of the game is concerned, flagging a stun effect as a passive means the effect bypasses all immunities and resistances, which makes it literally impossible to create content that is immune to stun even if that is intended. An effect that doesn't obey the normal mechanical rules of the game in a way that breaks their content is something the developers are going to change over any and every objection. Period.

    I can't argue the fact I don't want it changed. However change or not, I'm still going to use him. These are viable reasons why. I chose this because it shows the imbalance, and offers a reason why it may include other non used champions. It gives them a purpose to be used. Anyone that posts any comparison to anything else is going to be assumed or viewed as 'their' personal reasons.

    So I ask you this, can you give a reason to use the following champs? Kamala Khan, Joe Fixit, Blackbolt, She Hulk, etc?
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 16,752
    Technically speaking, I used Joe even before the WP changes because his Bleed is decent and bypassed it in its day. Kamala would be useful in situations where you need cumulative Damage but can't rely on Debuffs. She's also Poison Immune. Shulk is useful for consistent Stuns....etc. They may be considered the lowest, but if you apply them to situations, they can have a use. It's really subjective, based on the fact that there are more preferable Champs.
  • Mr_OtterMr_Otter Posts: 1,614
    You’re not even using AA properly

    Heavy attacks have 50% all hits opposed to like 0.4*0.3(being GENEROUS) out of 1 to bleed before calculating diminishing returns

    Also each bleed MAKES +25% flat to incluct poison via special attacks with each hit having that chance

    And blocking does increase it more


    Honestly if you use AA similar to Quake excerpt you hit with the heavy attack instead of charging it and you won’t even be able to keep the ENEMY alive long enough to stun them via Neurotoxin
  • Mr_OtterMr_Otter Posts: 1,614
    Also… you list 36? That for intensive purposes are hard/impossible to neuro except most of them still take Bleed Damage and do you expect to be able to kill EVERYTHING with a DoT attacker besides SL who still needs AAR/Evasion hunters and power control allies as well as probably a healer and immune allies depending on what messed up path/boss you have to fight

    AA is basically a bleed reliant champion that has the added bonus of poison damage to compliment his bleed and can combine them if you can do both. Yes he’s limited but when I can CASUALLY fight Act5.4 enemies in 40 hits or less without really trying then… does it matter?
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 16,752
    edited June 2018
    Bleed, Poison, Neurotoxin, AAR, Stun....definitely not the focus of his use to bypass.
  • Mr_OtterMr_Otter Posts: 1,614
    FURTHER MORE I do have to ask why you want to stun a stun immune champ

    There was SUCH an outrage when Iceman was being incinerated in LoL and ice ALREADY made the joke about Groot bleeding Sap

    Not to mention Blade specifically bypasses “immunities” of danger sensed enemies but he only effects AAR immune and not oh… bleeding Morningstar or poisoning Abomination. We kinda need regulations or we have another mini-arms race that will end up being another IMIW
  • AsmodeyusAsmodeyus Posts: 218
    Mr_Otter wrote: »
    You’re not even using AA properly

    Heavy attacks have 50% all hits opposed to like 0.4*0.3(being GENEROUS) out of 1 to bleed before calculating diminishing returns

    Also each bleed MAKES +25% flat to incluct poison via special attacks with each hit having that chance

    And blocking does increase it more


    Honestly if you use AA similar to Quake excerpt you hit with the heavy attack instead of charging it and you won’t even be able to keep the ENEMY alive long enough to stun them via Neurotoxin

    Did you even read example? I used it to show what was needed to be 100% hence the (perfect case senario, go re-read it), that doesn't mean you can't poison with 1 bleed. It's an example for a reason. Again I used 4 in the example to state that the block would induce poison, IE the 100% you just stated. Since you are too stuck on exact percentages fine here we go.

    EVERY critical hit is 40% chance to bleed, Heavy is 50% chance to bleed.

    0% chance to poison WHILE blocking. Each bleed increases it by 25%, hence 4 bleeds = 100% chance to poison on a blocked hit.

    Special 1 - 20% chance to bleed, 0% base chance for poison (add in all bleeds on target to get 25/50/75/100)
    Special 2 - 50% chance to bleed, -40% base chance, (IE 1 Bleed = -15%, 2 bleeds = 10%, etc, etc)
    Special 3 100% chance to bleed, 100% chance to poison
  • AsmodeyusAsmodeyus Posts: 218
    Mr_Otter wrote: »
    Also… you list 36? That for intensive purposes are hard/impossible to neuro except most of them still take Bleed Damage and do you expect to be able to kill EVERYTHING with a DoT attacker besides SL who still needs AAR/Evasion hunters and power control allies as well as probably a healer and immune allies depending on what messed up path/boss you have to fight

    AA is basically a bleed reliant champion that has the added bonus of poison damage to compliment his bleed and can combine them if you can do both. Yes he’s limited but when I can CASUALLY fight Act5.4 enemies in 40 hits or less without really trying then… does it matter?

    I listed everyone that is immune to either bleed or poison first, secondly, shrug off chances, meaning since they have a chance to shrug it off, or end it quickly, it DOES make it more difficult.
  • AsmodeyusAsmodeyus Posts: 218
    Technically speaking, I used Joe even before the WP changes because his Bleed is decent and bypassed it in its day. Kamala would be useful in situations where you need cumulative Damage but can't rely on Debuffs. She's also Poison Immune. Shulk is useful for consistent Stuns....etc. They may be considered the lowest, but if you apply them to situations, they can have a use. It's really subjective, based on the fact that there are more preferable Champs.

    Yes they are subjective, and you do make good points. However it does add to the reason to use them on a stun immune node, especially since they are bleed, poison, or immune to both.
  • AsmodeyusAsmodeyus Posts: 218
    edited June 2018
    Bleed, Poison, Neurotoxin, AAR, Stun....definitely not the focus of his use to bypass.

    No they aren't the focus but they are the steps needed to obtain a neurotoxin debuff. First bleed, second poison, third bleed again while a poison is in effect to consume and aquire neurotoxin debuff. Which means you have to bypass those "gates/steps" to get to the neurotoxin effect. They aren't the focus but they are needed.
  • AsmodeyusAsmodeyus Posts: 218
    Mr_Otter wrote: »
    FURTHER MORE I do have to ask why you want to stun a stun immune champ

    There was SUCH an outrage when Iceman was being incinerated in LoL and ice ALREADY made the joke about Groot bleeding Sap

    Not to mention Blade specifically bypasses “immunities” of danger sensed enemies but he only effects AAR immune and not oh… bleeding Morningstar or poisoning Abomination. We kinda need regulations or we have another mini-arms race that will end up being another IMIW

    Okay, I'll humor you since you seem to be posting happy. How many stun immune or for that matter limber nodes in Alliance War? Which by the way seems to be the only real use for the stun immune nodes, the idea is, yes make it more difficult, change your play style, force something different. So again I ask, why is 1 champ out of all the options that big of a deal to bypass?
  • Mr_OtterMr_Otter Posts: 1,614
    Asmodeyus wrote: »
    Mr_Otter wrote: »
    You’re not even using AA properly

    Heavy attacks have 50% all hits opposed to like 0.4*0.3(being GENEROUS) out of 1 to bleed before calculating diminishing returns

    Also each bleed MAKES +25% flat to incluct poison via special attacks with each hit having that chance

    And blocking does increase it more


    Honestly if you use AA similar to Quake excerpt you hit with the heavy attack instead of charging it and you won’t even be able to keep the ENEMY alive long enough to stun them via Neurotoxin

    Did you even read example? I used it to show what was needed to be 100% hence the (perfect case senario, go re-read it), that doesn't mean you can't poison with 1 bleed. It's an example for a reason. Again I used 4 in the example to state that the block would induce poison, IE the 100% you just stated. Since you are too stuck on exact percentages fine here we go.

    EVERY critical hit is 40% chance to bleed, Heavy is 50% chance to bleed.

    0% chance to poison WHILE blocking. Each bleed increases it by 25%, hence 4 bleeds = 100% chance to poison on a blocked hit.

    Special 1 - 20% chance to bleed, 0% base chance for poison (add in all bleeds on target to get 25/50/75/100)
    Special 2 - 50% chance to bleed, -40% base chance, (IE 1 Bleed = -15%, 2 bleeds = 10%, etc, etc)
    Special 3 100% chance to bleed, 100% chance to poison



    4/55 5* has a 23.5% Crit rate or 0.235
    40%=0.4
    If 23.5/100 have a chance to Crit than 40% if 23.5 is 9.4%

    The heavy bleeds at 50% are all a different bleed than the Crit bleeds and the heavy attack has 3 potential bleeds PLUS critical chance bleeds to stack

    Special bleeds are independent from critical bleeds and as such either 1 or the other could trigger, both can, or neither can.


    Like I said if you need the neuro-stun or even let it get that far well… I just showed you how to increase your bleeds with AA by a multiple of FIVE!

    As for Neuro-immunity… AGAIN THERES A REASON YOU CANT JUST WIN EVERY FIGHT WITH A SINGLE CHAMP
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 16,752
    Asmodeyus wrote: »
    Bleed, Poison, Neurotoxin, AAR, Stun....definitely not the focus of his use to bypass.

    No they aren't the focus but they are the steps needed to obtain a neurotoxin debuff. First bleed, second poison, third bleed again while a poison is in effect to consume and aquire neurotoxin debuff. Which means you have to bypass those "gates/steps" to get to the neurotoxin effect. They aren't the focus but they are needed.

    I was highlighting the fact that he's extremely useful without the Immunity bypass. For all intents and purposes, they don't want a Champ to be able to bypass. According to recent comments, it was a fix, not a change. Now, the question comes up as to why now, but I don't believe there's a shelf life on fixing issues. Seldom would you see a Dev forego pushing something because it existed for so long, especially when future content would make it more problematic.
  • AsmodeyusAsmodeyus Posts: 218
    Mr_Otter wrote: »
    Asmodeyus wrote: »
    Mr_Otter wrote: »
    You’re not even using AA properly

    Heavy attacks have 50% all hits opposed to like 0.4*0.3(being GENEROUS) out of 1 to bleed before calculating diminishing returns

    Also each bleed MAKES +25% flat to incluct poison via special attacks with each hit having that chance

    And blocking does increase it more


    Honestly if you use AA similar to Quake excerpt you hit with the heavy attack instead of charging it and you won’t even be able to keep the ENEMY alive long enough to stun them via Neurotoxin

    Did you even read example? I used it to show what was needed to be 100% hence the (perfect case senario, go re-read it), that doesn't mean you can't poison with 1 bleed. It's an example for a reason. Again I used 4 in the example to state that the block would induce poison, IE the 100% you just stated. Since you are too stuck on exact percentages fine here we go.

    EVERY critical hit is 40% chance to bleed, Heavy is 50% chance to bleed.

    0% chance to poison WHILE blocking. Each bleed increases it by 25%, hence 4 bleeds = 100% chance to poison on a blocked hit.

    Special 1 - 20% chance to bleed, 0% base chance for poison (add in all bleeds on target to get 25/50/75/100)
    Special 2 - 50% chance to bleed, -40% base chance, (IE 1 Bleed = -15%, 2 bleeds = 10%, etc, etc)
    Special 3 100% chance to bleed, 100% chance to poison



    4/55 5* has a 23.5% Crit rate or 0.235
    40%=0.4
    If 23.5/100 have a chance to Crit than 40% if 23.5 is 9.4%

    The heavy bleeds at 50% are all a different bleed than the Crit bleeds and the heavy attack has 3 potential bleeds PLUS critical chance bleeds to stack

    Special bleeds are independent from critical bleeds and as such either 1 or the other could trigger, both can, or neither can.


    Like I said if you need the neuro-stun or even let it get that far well… I just showed you how to increase your bleeds with AA by a multiple of FIVE!

    As for Neuro-immunity… AGAIN THERES A REASON YOU CANT JUST WIN EVERY FIGHT WITH A SINGLE CHAMP

    I believe Iceman, Ultron, Ultron OG, Vision, Vision OG, and Nebula make that already impossible. For that matter any bleed immune champ so there's some right there that make it impossible to win every fight with a single champ.
  • AsmodeyusAsmodeyus Posts: 218
    Asmodeyus wrote: »
    Bleed, Poison, Neurotoxin, AAR, Stun....definitely not the focus of his use to bypass.

    No they aren't the focus but they are the steps needed to obtain a neurotoxin debuff. First bleed, second poison, third bleed again while a poison is in effect to consume and aquire neurotoxin debuff. Which means you have to bypass those "gates/steps" to get to the neurotoxin effect. They aren't the focus but they are needed.

    I was highlighting the fact that he's extremely useful without the Immunity bypass. For all intents and purposes, they don't want a Champ to be able to bypass. According to recent comments, it was a fix, not a change. Now, the question comes up as to why now, but I don't believe there's a shelf life on fixing issues. Seldom would you see a Dev forego pushing something because it existed for so long, especially when future content would make it more problematic.

    Fair enough, and I do agree with you on that point for the length of time. It does seem like there is another reason unstated for it to have gone on for over a year before the 'fix'
  • Mr_OtterMr_Otter Posts: 1,614
    Asmodeyus wrote: »
    Mr_Otter wrote: »
    Asmodeyus wrote: »
    Mr_Otter wrote: »
    You’re not even using AA properly

    Heavy attacks have 50% all hits opposed to like 0.4*0.3(being GENEROUS) out of 1 to bleed before calculating diminishing returns

    Also each bleed MAKES +25% flat to incluct poison via special attacks with each hit having that chance

    And blocking does increase it more


    Honestly if you use AA similar to Quake excerpt you hit with the heavy attack instead of charging it and you won’t even be able to keep the ENEMY alive long enough to stun them via Neurotoxin

    Did you even read example? I used it to show what was needed to be 100% hence the (perfect case senario, go re-read it), that doesn't mean you can't poison with 1 bleed. It's an example for a reason. Again I used 4 in the example to state that the block would induce poison, IE the 100% you just stated. Since you are too stuck on exact percentages fine here we go.

    EVERY critical hit is 40% chance to bleed, Heavy is 50% chance to bleed.

    0% chance to poison WHILE blocking. Each bleed increases it by 25%, hence 4 bleeds = 100% chance to poison on a blocked hit.

    Special 1 - 20% chance to bleed, 0% base chance for poison (add in all bleeds on target to get 25/50/75/100)
    Special 2 - 50% chance to bleed, -40% base chance, (IE 1 Bleed = -15%, 2 bleeds = 10%, etc, etc)
    Special 3 100% chance to bleed, 100% chance to poison



    4/55 5* has a 23.5% Crit rate or 0.235
    40%=0.4
    If 23.5/100 have a chance to Crit than 40% if 23.5 is 9.4%

    The heavy bleeds at 50% are all a different bleed than the Crit bleeds and the heavy attack has 3 potential bleeds PLUS critical chance bleeds to stack

    Special bleeds are independent from critical bleeds and as such either 1 or the other could trigger, both can, or neither can.


    Like I said if you need the neuro-stun or even let it get that far well… I just showed you how to increase your bleeds with AA by a multiple of FIVE!

    As for Neuro-immunity… AGAIN THERES A REASON YOU CANT JUST WIN EVERY FIGHT WITH A SINGLE CHAMP

    I believe Iceman, Ultron, Ultron OG, Vision, Vision OG, and Nebula make that already impossible. For that matter any bleed immune champ so there's some right there that make it impossible to win every fight with a single champ.

    EX-ACT-LY!
    The only ones that SHOULD be able to live long enough to get stunned by Neurotoxin are the ones that CANNOT be inflicted with neurotoxin and you’d OBVIOUSLY use someone else
  • MuffRyderMuffRyder Posts: 2
    Why Kabam always nerf some popular champions?
    I remembered Doctor Stanger, then Scarlet Witch last year. Now Kabam is going to nerf AA but no rank down tickets. Did Kabam know how much we have invested in those champions? If Kabam do so, pls tell me when u going to nerf Blade. At least we can prepare. fxxk
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