Champion Inaccuracies in the Game

Hey everyone, this is just something I was thinking about lately and was wondering if anyone else was thinking the same thing. There are some big inaccuracies within some characters in the game. For example, Venom and other symbiote champions don't reduce evade or Electro not being immune to shock damage. Just things that are so obvious that they shouldn't be excluded from a character design and when Carnage released without any evade reduction I knew it needed to be addressed. I made a video talking about this topic (link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XKdqt0_dg8&t=1s ). My goal is to start the conversation about this, anyone else been wondering the same thing?

Comments

Kabam Miike

Hey MastaChief117,

Thank you for taking the time to make that video! Although we definitely see where you're coming from, it's important to note that while all of our design choices are heavily influenced by how these Characters act and exist in the mainstream Marvel Universes, they are not exactly the same.

Why is that? Because this universe exists within a game, and each of these Characters needs to be balanced against each other. If this were completely accurate to the Comic Book universe, it wouldn't be much of a match up between Hawkeye and the Hulk. It would also be a very messy cleanup, and I don't think neither the Collector, nor the Grandmaster want to take the time to do that.

Mr_Otter

Kabam Miike wrote: »

Hey MastaChief117,

Thank you for taking the time to make that video! Although we definitely see where you're coming from, it's important to note that while all of our design choices are heavily influenced by how these Characters act and exist in the mainstream Marvel Universes, they are not exactly the same.

Why is that? Because this universe exists within a game, and each of these Characters needs to be balanced against each other. If this were completely accurate to the Comic Book universe, it wouldn't be much of a match up between Hawkeye and the Hulk. It would also be a very messy cleanup, and I don't think neither the Collector, nor the Grandmaster want to take the time to do that.

1 word… HYPERION

TKal

Mr_Otter wrote: »

Kabam Miike wrote: »

Hey MastaChief117,

Thank you for taking the time to make that video! Although we definitely see where you're coming from, it's important to note that while all of our design choices are heavily influenced by how these Characters act and exist in the mainstream Marvel Universes, they are not exactly the same.

Why is that? Because this universe exists within a game, and each of these Characters needs to be balanced against each other. If this were completely accurate to the Comic Book universe, it wouldn't be much of a match up between Hawkeye and the Hulk. It would also be a very messy cleanup, and I don't think neither the Collector, nor the Grandmaster want to take the time to do that.

1 word… HYPERION

Let's just be fair here, they really can't put the champs as they are in the comics, Hyperion in the game is not nearly as strong as in the comics.

But about that Evade thing of the symbiotes, it would be a great buff for venom and carnage that are a little behind right now

MastaChief117

Kabam Miike wrote: »

Hey MastaChief117,

Thank you for taking the time to make that video! Although we definitely see where you're coming from, it's important to note that while all of our design choices are heavily influenced by how these Characters act and exist in the mainstream Marvel Universes, they are not exactly the same.

Why is that? Because this universe exists within a game, and each of these Characters needs to be balanced against each other. If this were completely accurate to the Comic Book universe, it wouldn't be much of a match up between Hawkeye and the Hulk. It would also be a very messy cleanup, and I don't think neither the Collector, nor the Grandmaster want to take the time to do that.

I completely agree and understand this is a game and do see it as an alternate universe. However there are some things that wouldn't break the game nor make a champion unbalanced (as addressed in the video). Things like Electro being shock immune. He'd still be prone to bleed, degen, incinerate and poison. Same with Venom and symbiote champs, Agent Venom has a 50% evade reduction yet no other symbiote has that, just seems odd too me. 50% wouldn't make these champs overpowered but still include that trademark Venom ability. Again, this is just to open up discussion would like to hear what everyone has to say

MastaChief117

TKal wrote: »

Mr_Otter wrote: »

Kabam Miike wrote: »

Hey MastaChief117,

Thank you for taking the time to make that video! Although we definitely see where you're coming from, it's important to note that while all of our design choices are heavily influenced by how these Characters act and exist in the mainstream Marvel Universes, they are not exactly the same.

Why is that? Because this universe exists within a game, and each of these Characters needs to be balanced against each other. If this were completely accurate to the Comic Book universe, it wouldn't be much of a match up between Hawkeye and the Hulk. It would also be a very messy cleanup, and I don't think neither the Collector, nor the Grandmaster want to take the time to do that.

1 word… HYPERION

Let's just be fair here, they really can't put the champs as they are in the comics, Hyperion in the game is not nearly as strong as in the comics.

But about that Evade thing of the symbiotes, it would be a great buff for venom and carnage that are a little behind right now

I agree 100% and it doesn't need to be anything overpowered either. I mean, Agent Venom has a 50% chance to reduce evade but no other symbiote does. It's just strange to leave it out.

TKal

MastaChief117 wrote: »

TKal wrote: »

Mr_Otter wrote: »

Kabam Miike wrote: »

Hey MastaChief117,

Thank you for taking the time to make that video! Although we definitely see where you're coming from, it's important to note that while all of our design choices are heavily influenced by how these Characters act and exist in the mainstream Marvel Universes, they are not exactly the same.

Why is that? Because this universe exists within a game, and each of these Characters needs to be balanced against each other. If this were completely accurate to the Comic Book universe, it wouldn't be much of a match up between Hawkeye and the Hulk. It would also be a very messy cleanup, and I don't think neither the Collector, nor the Grandmaster want to take the time to do that.

1 word… HYPERION

Let's just be fair here, they really can't put the champs as they are in the comics, Hyperion in the game is not nearly as strong as in the comics.

But about that Evade thing of the symbiotes, it would be a great buff for venom and carnage that are a little behind right now

I agree 100% and it doesn't need to be anything overpowered either. I mean, Agent Venom has a 50% chance to reduce evade but no other symbiote does. It's just strange to leave it out.

Yeah I made a post about the fact that symbiotes should be able to reduces evade, it would be a great little improvement no game changer

xtremegamer

Kabam Miike wrote: »

Hey MastaChief117,

Thank you for taking the time to make that video! Although we definitely see where you're coming from, it's important to note that while all of our design choices are heavily influenced by how these Characters act and exist in the mainstream Marvel Universes, they are not exactly the same.

Why is that? Because this universe exists within a game, and each of these Characters needs to be balanced against each other. If this were completely accurate to the Comic Book universe, it wouldn't be much of a match up between Hawkeye and the Hulk. It would also be a very messy cleanup, and I don't think neither the Collector, nor the Grandmaster want to take the time to do that.

Ok I am all in for balance and understand that chamiopns needs to be balanced
but how can you justify balance in offence abilities only, is that one word "money".

lets take a example of spiderman is he balanced as defender no I am not saying he is undefeatable but he is op as a defender where only like 30% chances of evading in harder content making him evading every 2nd hit.

Lagmelongtime

Mr_Otter wrote: »

Kabam Miike wrote: »

Hey MastaChief117,

Thank you for taking the time to make that video! Although we definitely see where you're coming from, it's important to note that while all of our design choices are heavily influenced by how these Characters act and exist in the mainstream Marvel Universes, they are not exactly the same.

Why is that? Because this universe exists within a game, and each of these Characters needs to be balanced against each other. If this were completely accurate to the Comic Book universe, it wouldn't be much of a match up between Hawkeye and the Hulk. It would also be a very messy cleanup, and I don't think neither the Collector, nor the Grandmaster want to take the time to do that.

1 word… HYPERION

Yeah he needs to be buff for sure to live up to his superman status instead of getting own by mystics.

SlySly

Kabam Miike wrote: »

It would also be a very messy cleanup, and I don't think neither the Collector, nor the Grandmaster want to take the time to do that.

Which in other words means ain't nobody got time fo dat son

Sirnoob

SlySly wrote: »

Kabam Miike wrote: »

It would also be a very messy cleanup, and I don't think neither the Collector, nor the Grandmaster want to take the time to do that.

Which in other words means ain't nobody got time fo dat son

Beat me to it

FAL7EN

I 100% agree with everything you said. Characters do need to have more likeness to the comics. You don't have to make characters overpowered to achieve that. Example is why does the Hulks not have healing factor? You could even throw the weak Old Man Logan heal on them and I would be satisfied.

K1lltastic

FAL7EN wrote: »

I 100% agree with everything you said. Characters do need to have more likeness to the comics. You don't have to make characters overpowered to achieve that. Example is why does the Hulks not have healing factor? You could even throw the weak Old Man Logan heal on them and I would be satisfied.

I'd be happy if they switched Wolverine's healing factor for Deadpool's... It makes more sense with their powers. Wolverine's healing factor is always going, while Deadpool's healing factor doesn't even kick in sometimes (comic wise). It only makes sense that Wolverine should have the healing that Deadpool has in the game... and DP should have the whole 'healing factor triggers on 8% of attacks to or from'

DNA3000

FAL7EN wrote: »

I 100% agree with everything you said. Characters do need to have more likeness to the comics. You don't have to make characters overpowered to achieve that. Example is why does the Hulks not have healing factor? You could even throw the weak Old Man Logan heal on them and I would be satisfied.

They can't make the Hulk true to the comics because the playerbase is so mad all the time every time anyone played the Hulk he'd crush his opponent with one punch.

FPC3

Yeah, but Miike, you ALWAYS reference back to the same concept: "How else would Hulk and Hawkeye fight in this game?"

I don't think any of us are arguing that. Of course there are factors that have to change to make the game work. But I strongly agree with the OP that there are smaller nuances, that truly identify with characters, that have been left out.

Now, your team HAS actually implemented a few, here and there. Like, DD bypassing Hood's Invisibility because he's blind. That's a perfect example of what I wish there was more of. Specific champion to champion fight dynamics. In the OP's video, he mentions Venom not bypassing Spider-Man's Spider Sense. That is a perfect example. Venom could have a 100% ability reduction to Spider-Man specifically, not necessarily a reduction to other evaders like NC, BW, DD etc.. But little nuances like that are hugely popular and appreciated by the fans and players of this game.

You talk about balance, but it seems to me that making the characters RIGHT, and THEN balancing their overall damage/health/etc/ around that, would be a great way to keep champions authentic AND balanced.

A few other examples that come to mind:
Wolverine - Should have a Rage component. He's ALWAYS been a berserker, how is this NOT part of his kit? Should also shrug off debuffs faster (like Rogue or Groot). There's plenty of examples in the comics of his waking up before others when the whole team got stunned, or fighting off poisons very quickly.
Cap Marvel / Ms. Marvel - Should be flying, and shrug off debuffs faster. I mean, Rogue LITERALLY stole Ms. Marvel's powers, so why is that Rogue does this and they don't??
Iceman - Should be immune to the Cold Snap of other Iceman champs. I mean, this is just common sense. The dude creates intense cold, why the heck would intense cold then hurt him??
Electro - Should be immune to Shock AND Electrostatic of OTHER Electros.
Ghost Rider and Dormammu - Should be immune to Incinerate.
Ultron and Vision - Should be immune to Champion-inflicted Degen.
Vision - I really like the OP's suggestion about Phasing. It's definitely a huge part of the character, and Hood's Invisibility is very similar in functionality, so it's possible.

Lambda1

Kabam Miike wrote: »

Hey MastaChief117,

Thank you for taking the time to make that video! Although we definitely see where you're coming from, it's important to note that while all of our design choices are heavily influenced by how these Characters act and exist in the mainstream Marvel Universes, they are not exactly the same.

Why is that? Because this universe exists within a game, and each of these Characters needs to be balanced against each other. If this were completely accurate to the Comic Book universe, it wouldn't be much of a match up between Hawkeye and the Hulk. It would also be a very messy cleanup, and I don't think neither the Collector, nor the Grandmaster want to take the time to do that.

Come on... Do you really think the game would be unbalanced with a so logical Electro's shock imunity? Or GR incinerate imune?

If you think so, you haven't played MCOC that often.

shingbab

Nice video, but ARGH please put a new battery in your smoke detector!

DLegend

LOL. Unless you want some champs to end up as OP as hyperion, i suggest that every character should be left as they are.

Lets focus on fixing bugs first. This is why we don't care about new content/changes to the game. Unless you want the same thing to happen when 12.0 was released.

weavile

thing like Hulk regen or strenght is a balance problem, but I don't see how thing like electro being shock immune or Ghost rider incinerate immune would change anything at all.

FPC3

DLegend wrote: »

LOL. Unless you want some champs to end up as OP as hyperion, i suggest that every character should be left as they are.

Lets focus on fixing bugs first. This is why we don't care about new content/changes to the game. Unless you want the same thing to happen when 12.0 was released.

Not that I completely disagree with you, but any "proper" game team should be able to both fix bugs AND update/modify champions.

BitterSteel

Thing is, kabam always hides behind the "oh hulk vs hawk eye fight" (and I myself have used that example before) but thinking about it more, it doesn't make sense. We aren't saying that every champion should be the exact replica of comic book character. Just a bit of common sense, like iceman immune to cold snap, electro and storm immune to stun, ghost rider and dormammu immune to incinerate, iron man (and all his iron friends) should be immune to bleed except for wolverine, magneto and x23.

TKal

BitterSteel wrote: »

Thing is, kabam always hides behind the "oh hulk vs hawk eye fight" (and I myself have used that example before) but thinking about it more, it doesn't make sense. We aren't saying that every champion should be the exact replica of comic book character. Just a bit of common sense, like iceman immune to cold snap, electro and storm immune to stun, ghost rider and dormammu immune to incinerate, iron man (and all his iron friends) should be immune to bleed except for wolverine, magneto and x23.

And I would say that actually Hawkeye is the only one who killed the Hulk in the comics. Oh ironic

RockandrollinaD

I said the same thing one time and kabam miike put the same example of hulk vs hawkeye and I understand that but nobody asked to be the exact same characters from the comics or it wouldn't be a fighting game at all because power levels.

We're just asking for characters to have their most important abilitys like for example Venom counter the spider sense, or magneto projecting his magnetic force field. Vision with his phase ability, electro inmune to shock or at least electrical resistance, ghost rider inmune to poison and incinerate.

And what about the worst of the worst like kamala she is a bad copy from crossbones but she is useless. Or what about hulkbuster? He is just armor and armor break and colossus that is armor only. They are just bad.

Eb0ny-O-M4w

These type of things were already discussed a lot of times. Is like 1/2 threads each week.
Since this is a completely different universe, it makes sense for things to be as they are right now

rwhack

I don't think you can talk about "competitive balance" when there are more heroes that are bad/useless than are usable.

Spidey Gwen
She Hulk
Karmala Khan

....are ones that jump to mind. Where is the competitive balance when looking at those.

K1lltastic

TKal wrote: »

BitterSteel wrote: »

Thing is, kabam always hides behind the "oh hulk vs hawk eye fight" (and I myself have used that example before) but thinking about it more, it doesn't make sense. We aren't saying that every champion should be the exact replica of comic book character. Just a bit of common sense, like iceman immune to cold snap, electro and storm immune to stun, ghost rider and dormammu immune to incinerate, iron man (and all his iron friends) should be immune to bleed except for wolverine, magneto and x23.

And I would say that actually Hawkeye is the only one who killed the Hulk in the comics. Oh ironic

I guess that's true... Because Deadpool waited until Hulk calmed down, and chopped Banner's head off.

TKal

K1lltastic wrote: »

TKal wrote: »

BitterSteel wrote: »

Thing is, kabam always hides behind the "oh hulk vs hawk eye fight" (and I myself have used that example before) but thinking about it more, it doesn't make sense. We aren't saying that every champion should be the exact replica of comic book character. Just a bit of common sense, like iceman immune to cold snap, electro and storm immune to stun, ghost rider and dormammu immune to incinerate, iron man (and all his iron friends) should be immune to bleed except for wolverine, magneto and x23.

And I would say that actually Hawkeye is the only one who killed the Hulk in the comics. Oh ironic

I guess that's true... Because Deadpool waited until Hulk calmed down, and chopped Banner's head off.

I was talking about the earth-616 universe. Cause wolwerine did kill Hulk in Old Man Logan, and the illuminati did kill hulk in Planet Hulk alternative version

I_am_Groot

FAL7EN wrote: »

I 100% agree with everything you said. Characters do need to have more likeness to the comics. You don't have to make characters overpowered to achieve that. Example is why does the Hulks not have healing factor? You could even throw the weak Old Man Logan heal on them and I would be satisfied.

I was thinking regen isn't necessary for Hulk but he could health bleed faster than the normal. That isnt so OP and make sense because he isn't 100% injury immune.

FAL7EN

I_am_Groot wrote: »

I was thinking regen isn't necessary for Hulk but he could health bleed faster than the normal. That isnt so OP and make sense because he isn't 100% injury immune.

Regen is something he does so why not have it. Having a constant regen that ticks 10-13 health per sec won't break the game or make him op.

DNA3000

BitterSteel wrote: »

Thing is, kabam always hides behind the "oh hulk vs hawk eye fight" (and I myself have used that example before) but thinking about it more, it doesn't make sense. We aren't saying that every champion should be the exact replica of comic book character. Just a bit of common sense, like iceman immune to cold snap, electro and storm immune to stun, ghost rider and dormammu immune to incinerate, iron man (and all his iron friends) should be immune to bleed except for wolverine, magneto and x23.

Miike's statement doesn't make sense because it is incomplete. The full problem is that every champion created for the game must conform to and be balanced within a very large number of parameters. That isn't just how powerful they are in a one-dimensional sense: that includes precisely how they implement that power, how they are used, even what the game engine supports and how that champion will be differentiated from the previous champions. One guy designs that champion, but they become either directly accountable to, or indirectly influenced by the feedback from many other devs. The final champion design is a consensus of many different people with often fundamentally different ideas for how to make that champion. And there's a time limit to how long you can argue over the details.

When you say the devs should apply some common sense, there's no such thing. You say it is obvious Iceman should be immune to cold snap. I don't think that's obvious. I don't think it is obvious that Ghost Rider should be immune to incinerate because Ghost Rider has no special immunity to fire in the comics - he's immune to *everything* and the "flames" he's surrounded by are explicitly stated to be magical and not even normally hot (they don't generally physically burn normal people when they are close to him), and not normal fire. What you think is obvious, other people won't. That same level of debate happens in dev teams as well, and what gets designed is ultimately a compromise between those various voices.

Against the backdrop of the lack of complete consensus over conceptual issues are the game mechanical imperatives, which can be different. So whether something is bleed immune or possesses stun gets pulled in many different directions: some will argue it is conceptually obvious, some will argue it is not: some will argue it is necessary for power balance, some that it should be excluded because of ability frequency, some that argue it should be put back in because of class guidelines, and so on.

And there's one additional meta issue. These people you are arguing with and want to override? You have to work with them tomorrow. The more you try to impose your opinions on everyone else, the more they are going to push back on you the next go around.

The notion that there's a general consensus that Kabam got the champions wrong is an illusion. First, the people who think they got it right don't generally voice that opinion. Second, the people who agree that Kabam got it wrong don't consistently agree on *how* they got it wrong or what the correct remedy is to resolve that. Not to specifically call anyone out, but because FPC3 made a list, I can say I wouldn't sign off on just about any of those suggestions. Not that I think any of them are particularly bad, just none of them seem obviously necessary to me either in mechanical terms or conceptual terms. I don't think I'm alone there.

I_am_Groot

FAL7EN wrote: »

I_am_Groot wrote: »

I was thinking regen isn't necessary for Hulk but he could health bleed faster than the normal. That isnt so OP and make sense because he isn't 100% injury immune.

Regen is something he does so why not have it. Having a constant regen that ticks 10-13 health per sec won't break the game or make him op.

Yes i know, he has regen in cannon, in fact it's an insane regen.
I'm agree a **** regen don't break anything that even it's unfair and a waste hability. But I'm saying the healing bleed thing as a middle point suggestion.

If they don't want a decent regen and they don't want a **** regen neither, I'm giving another option.
IMO it's just absurd he's bleeding as any mortal. I'm not asking too much.