I think that Negative Armour is real

MagrailothosMagrailothos Posts: 3,171 ★★★★★
Is there such a thing as negative armour any more? (Do read the whole post before replying!)

There's a common held belief that negative armour doesn't exist any more, post-12.0; and I think that actually it does.

Yes, I know a mod did say something along those lines back around 12.0 (I was around then, too!); but version 12.0 was also supposed to introduce Armour Penetration, Block Penetration, and Critical Resistance. Those were rolled back. I think negative armour was too; it just wasn't really noticed by the gamers; and wasn't made clear in the announcement reversing the planned changes.

Don't believe me?

4* 3/30 Netflix Daredevil vs Iron Fist
(A champ who stacks armour break against one with zero base armour)

In the arena, in the same game. Health >50% throughout, so Attack not increased by Courage. No boosts or suicides.

Damage inflicted by DDNF on critical Medium hits:

0 Armour Breaks = 473 damage
3 Armour Breaks = 551 damage
5 Armour Breaks = 592 damage

As Iron Fist starts at zero armour, and DDNF has no other mechanism to increase his damage, it must be possible to take your opponent into negative armour. Or alternately, Iron Fist has invisible armour we just didn't know about.

However, I also note that three armour breaks increases the damage by 68 (approx 23 each), whilst a further two stacks increases it by 41 (approx 20.5 each).

My hypothesis is that - whilst a floor of zero was planned for 12.0 - this decision was reversed when it was decided not to implement those additional stats (armour/block penetration, crit resistance). However, they did make negative armour less effective by making it subjective to Diminishing Returns (DR) in the same way that positive armour is.

As critical rate, and critical damage rating are also subject to DR, Iron Fist (for example) therefore got substantially less effective with 12.0. However, the fact that recent champs like Emma Frost, Ghost, IMIW and Killmonger have all had specific built-in vulnerability to armour break suggests his day isn't quite done yet.

Personally, I'm convinced that negative armour still exists. And if anyone wants to recommend a good video capture App for Android I'll try making a video demonstrating it.

However, as a scientist, I'll be perfectly happy for someone to prove me wrong. But please don't just quote a vague memory of the same statement I've already acknowledged: show us some evidence - play the game with an Armour Break champ against a zero armour champ and show us your damage not increasing.

Looking forwards to your comments, both gamers and (hopefully) mods.


  • iRetr0iRetr0 Posts: 1,240 ★★★★
    Oh so you are one of those that wants something that was removed and benefited the players to be confirmed that it was removed
  • MagrailothosMagrailothos Posts: 3,171 ★★★★★
    No, my point is that I don't think it was removed at all. I think the evidence is staring us in the face, and so I wanted to see if anyone could come up with a better interpretation of it.

    Also, negative armour wouldn't actually benefit the player base all that much, with Diminishing Return, and your champions would be just as vulnerable to negative armour as they would be capable of inflicting it.

    Individual champions would be more effective if I'm right. Like Iron Fist, but also like Thor, Corvus, Proxima and Gwenpool, all of whom have massive armour break abilities.
  • Kobster84Kobster84 Posts: 2,898 ★★★★★
    Well look at Medusa If she couldn’t get people to negative armor she wouldn’t do nearly as much damage as she does
  • MagrailothosMagrailothos Posts: 3,171 ★★★★★
    I think the best way to prove this theory is by using Corvus against IF with an Armor Break active from his Well-Timed Block. If there is still negative armor then Corvus's damage should increase since True Damage already ignores all armor and Armor Break would bring it to the negatives. If his damage doesn't change then we know that negative armor is removed from the game.

    Unfortunately it's not really clear how True Damage would interact with negative armour. Is it coded to alter all armour modifiers to zero? Would it cancel out negative armour, and prevent you seeing the benefits?

    That's why I specifically avoided a champion with True Strike.

    That and my current state of Corvus deficiency.
  • Solrac_2Solrac_2 Posts: 497 ★★
    I've wondered if it still exists but I do think that it was nerfed some.
  • KaruseusKaruseus Posts: 409 ★★
    edited September 2018
    True strike ignores armor, so no matter how much armor break you have on opponent, your damage won’t change. Kabam mentioned it on Heimdal champion spotlight
    But then again, what they say on champion spotlight isn’t always accurate...
  • MagrailothosMagrailothos Posts: 3,171 ★★★★★
    Just a thought - for research purposes, does anyone know a duel target with an Iron Fist? He's in the six Star crystal, so some lucky soul might have him in their top four champions.
  • MagrailothosMagrailothos Posts: 3,171 ★★★★★
    Found this in Heimdall's spotlight:

    Heimdall enters The Contest August 16th at 10AM PDT...

    Special 1: Hofund - Heimdall wields his uru sword Hofund with powerful sweeping blows, combining his natural strength with enchantments woven into the blade by Odin himself.

    • 100% chance to Armor Break the Opponent once for each Fury Buff more than Armor Up Buff currently active on Heimdall. These Armor Breaks reduce Armor by 105 and last for 10 seconds.

    *** Developer Note: Heimdall’s Armor Breaks won’t grant him additional Damage while his True Strike is active, as it’s ignoring his Opponent’s Armor (positive or negative), however they’re still very useful in certain matchups clearing Armor effects from the Opponent.

    It seems the developers still think armour can go negative. It also seems that (they think that) True Strike ignores all armour, so doesn't benefit from Armour Break.

    But hey, what does the game design team know? There's developer notes are probably wrong and ill-informed.

    Let's just go on remembering an announcement by a forum moderator that they were planning to remove negative armour back in 12.0.

    Plans never change, and as we all know, the mods are never wrong. Let's just keep saying there's no such thing as negative armour...
  • Frivolousz21Frivolousz21 Posts: 424 ★★

    Just fought Iron fist in chapter 2.1 if the master level EQ.

    No nodes.

    I used Netflix Daredevil.

    No teammates. Only brought DD.

    My five star Netflix Dardevil is 1/25.


    Daredevil did the following medium crit damage:

    No armor breaks: 797
    One armor break: 970
    Two armor breaks: 1170-1190
    Three armor breaks: 1410

    So if there isn't negative armor how is that possible?
  • MagrailothosMagrailothos Posts: 3,171 ★★★★★
    Thanks, @Frivolousz21. Nice that some people are prepared to try stuff out!

    I think our colleague in the other thread simply likes arguing and isn't interested in letting observable facts change his mind because he didn't wish it to be changed.

    So there's a node that actually proves negative armor still exists. Look at it it's Breakthrough, but the thing is it that the armor now is just additive while 12.0 was multiplicative which is how Thor's sp3 was able to do so much damage when the opponent had abunch or armor breaks.
  • MagrailothosMagrailothos Posts: 3,171 ★★★★★
    John757 said:

    What are your thoughts on the shape of the Earth?

    Oblate spheroid.

  • John757John757 Posts: 1,065 ★★★

    John757 said:

    What are your thoughts on the shape of the Earth?

    Oblate spheroid.

    Okay just verifying you weren’t a flat earther
  • MagrailothosMagrailothos Posts: 3,171 ★★★★★
    John757 said:

    John757 said:

    What are your thoughts on the shape of the Earth?

    Oblate spheroid.

    Okay just verifying you weren’t a flat earther
    Quite the reverse. It's a bit of an article of faith amongst the community that "there is no negative armour any more"; making this something of an iconoclastic thread. Just bringing the subject up will often be met with blank denial, and a refusal to engage with the subject.
  • Arbiter2426Arbiter2426 Posts: 346
    What about Gwenpool? Her special three makes her do almost double her damage with the armor reduction, she may be a exception to the no negative armor rule anymore
  • Suros_moonSuros_moon Posts: 118
    Corvus hits harder when armor break is active. Just try him against howard, you parry and youll have 8 or 9 armor breaks which allows his damage to spike for a little while until they expire and it is back to base. True strike ignores armor, so effectively it ignores 100% of armor. Add an armor break that ignores 15% you now have 115% armor which should translate into 15% more damage. Its not truly "negative" just additive to damage.
  • Colonaut123Colonaut123 Posts: 2,518 ★★★★★
    Now people are going to laugh, but the champion with the highest armor break is... Hulkbuster. His SP3 applies an armor break that's in the 3000. Against almost any champion, that would go straight into the negative. Against IF, the full armor break makes the SP3 deal +60% damage.
Sign In or Register to comment.