Sabretooth and Sasquatch Synergy [Merged Threads]

CoatHang3r · July 2020

LilMaddogHT said:

Extremely interesting that there is all this hype built up by CCP members by their awesome videos of showcasing the new synergy and today we get Sabretooth crystals offered.... midway thru the day, Kabam announcing they are nerfing Sabretooth.

Crystals are released relative to a champions run in arenas, given ST’s ended Thursday it would be abnormal for to not have a crystal at this time. Check back in a week, you’ll see guardian crystals. A week after that and you’ll see the champion after guardian.

Thicco_Mode said:

CoatHang3r said:
The crystals run relative to the arenas, it’s not what you are suggesting.
I'm not saying that they planned this so poeple would buy sabretooth crystals, but they control who is in the arenas

Yes the arena that started for him 2 Thursday’s ago. That was likely planned in advance of that and before any CCP video and before they were aware of how that synergy impacted him.

TheBennyX · July 2020

Heattblastt said:
So she hulk was able to end her combo with heavy which was not writte
Seraphion said:
that synergy isnt even practical...

What it does is making him not a super dissapointment when you run out of charges mid quest and makes him somewhat playable for AOL /LOL with a lot of revives spending and a risky playstyle.

Especialy in AoL. Running out of charges vs the collector? Good luck with the rest after you used over 20 revives to build him.

I prob would never use that synergy but it would have been refreshing to see some1 rival Aegon in Special content.

Cant have good things with kabam I guess.

At least make it cap at 50 or something.
The synergy is great u kidding, u never lose ur damage as long as u have persistent charges. I wish they would put a decent cap on his furies, maybe 25.

Gamer · July 2020

Seraphion said:
that synergy isnt even practical...

What it does is making him not a super dissapointment when you run out of charges mid quest and makes him somewhat playable for AOL /LOL with a lot of revives spending and a risky playstyle.

Especialy in AoL. Running out of charges vs the collector? Good luck with the rest after you used over 20 revives to build him.

I prob would never use that synergy but it would have been refreshing to see some1 rival Aegon in Special content.

Cant have good things with kabam I guess.

At least make it cap at 50 or something.

Let be real 50 is far to much make it 30 and half one the middle grund.

U_R_Mean14 · July 2020

Kabam Miike said:
I'm checking on this. Sabretooth's description clearly calls out "Sabretooth cannot convert his passive Fury effects while fighting if he has 15 or more permanent passive Fury effects active.", so I don't know what is happening here.

I definitely agree with you that Sabretooth can only convert 5 fury buffs into *passive* fury buffs per fight, up to 15. The difference is that it also says in his ‘persistent charge’ section that: “reactivating all of his fury effects that were active at the end of his last fight as permanent passive fury effects” the key being ‘end of the fight.’ Which means you can gain 1 if you have the multiple of 10 counter combo and 1 more if you end with an L3, then starting your next fight you’ll have 7 instead of the regular 5. Sabretooth could always go over his limit, be at 14 charges in 2 fights (very challenging to do) and then have +2 every fight after (never converted passively, just ending the fight with them) to max out at 22 on the 6th fight (which is irrelevant since he will go back to 0 furies because no persistent charges remain).

lowlevelplayer · July 2020

did any of you look at the CCP videos before publishing and then think "wait... thats not right.."? Why did you release the crystals, let the CCP publish the synergy videos, build up hype, and then nerf the synergy to the ground?

TheInfinty · July 2020

Well This is a interesting situation. I think it’s good Kabam realizes that it’s bugged before it goes live. This is a very mixed reaction for me I can see both sides of the argument. I’m gonna try to stay as neutral as possible. On one hand am I upset they are changing him? I mean sorta but not a lot.Bugs plague basically every game in existence. I’m more happy that they fixed the synergy before someone accidentally spent all their money on the new Sasquatch just for the synergy.

KILLMФИGЕЯ · July 2020

Kabam Miike said:
Hey guys,

Can confirm that this is a Bug. We are discussing the course of action right now and will let you know what exactly needs to be fixed, and how fast we can do it.

Sabretooth should NOT be able to get to this many Fury effects.

I understand it needs to be fixed even though dec notes show you can end a fight with sp3 to gain a fury but it’s absolutely insane that you can legally sell sabretooth crystals on the morning after 20 videos showing how crazy OP sabretooth will be lol
You guys really need to be on top of things earlier than this.

Thicco_Mode · July 2020

CoatHang3r said:

LilMaddogHT said:

Extremely interesting that there is all this hype built up by CCP members by their awesome videos of showcasing the new synergy and today we get Sabretooth crystals offered.... midway thru the day, Kabam announcing they are nerfing Sabretooth.
Crystals are released relative to a champions run in arenas, given ST’s ended Thursday it would be abnormal for to not have a crystal at this time. Check back in a week, you’ll see guardian crystals. A week after that and you’ll see the champion after guardian.
Thicco_Mode said:

CoatHang3r said:
The crystals run relative to the arenas, it’s not what you are suggesting.
I'm not saying that they planned this so poeple would buy sabretooth crystals, but they control who is in the arenas
Yes the arena that started for him 2 Thursday’s ago. That was likely planned in advance of that and before any CCP video and before they were aware of how that synergy impacted him.

well the entire theory was based on the premise that kabam knew about this and "baited" us. again, not saying I believe this theory

Gkevery · July 2020

So now that Kabam has deemed the Fury stacking with Sasquatch as a
“long standing bug”....

i would like to purpose the question to as why this wasnt addressed before?
I would understand it to be that 20-21 furies is acceptable standards in kabams eyes, at a time when it will fall off back to 0 and champ would be back to useless status, but with the soon release of Sasquatch, that shifts the bug into the “Pro-Player” catagory, and must be addressed now.

I still see the “bug” as a pay wall... given You will use 15-20 revives getting up to the 50 fury mark.... and however i have not done the abyss yet, but putting the eggs into the “OP sabertooth” method. What implications will that cause for collector? from what i have seen, its not very viable getting to sp3 on the final fight, so with 80k max damage, and 5-6 shots at him going to be enough? i know ive seen a few videos of aegon (broken heavy) still needing far more than that. and he has the ability to go unblockable/unstoppable with truestrike....

Was Saber for AoL going to really be that broken?

DNA3000 · July 2020

Kabam Miike said:
So, just posted this in an announcement, but should share it here too:

Sabretooth has had a long-standing bug where players can maintain more Fury Effects than you should be able to. It states in his Abilities that he can have a maximum of 15 Permanent Passive Fury Effects. Regardless of the method of getting them, you should not be able to exceed this maximum.

We are working to get this fixed as soon as possible. This affects some of the videos that you may have seen where Sabretooth is able to achieve significantly more Passive Fury Effects than intended.

This bug may have been well known to some of you, but it was never the intended case, and this synergy just helped bring it to light. The Synergy was designed to extend Sabretooth's fully ramped state, and not increase the runway for him to ramp up.

It actually doesn't say that. It says in his abilities:

"Sabretooth cannot convert his passive Fury effects while fighting if he has 15 or more permanent passive Fury effects active."

It does not say, or even imply, that Sabretooth is capped at 15 passive furies. In fact, it actually goes out of its way to imply that it is possible to get more than 15 passive furies when it states "... if he has 15 or more permanent passive Fury effects active."

And there are two ways to convert fury buffs to passive fury effects. Both are listed in his abilities. First:

"Dodging back and allowing Sabretooth to idle for 1 second allows him to convert a temporary Fury buff into a permanent passive effect."

This is obviously something you do "while fighting." But there's another way:

"At the start of the fight, if Sabretooth has a Persisstent Charge, he consumes one, re-activating all of his Fury effects that were active at the end of his last fight as permanent Passive Fury effects."

This is something you do when not fighting. His abilities state that when he has "15 or more" passive fury effects, he cannot do the first one to gain any more. But his abilities do not say that the second method doesn't work when he has 15 or more passive Fury effects.

And the Developer spotlight emphasizes the fact that the fury buffs will carry over into the next fight:

"Developer Note: Sabretooth is all about building up damage over multiple fights and will be really good against bosses. Any active Fury effects will be reactivated as passive effects in the next fight if you have a Persistent Charge. This means, if you have 10 passive Permanent Fury effects and 1 temporary Fury Buff active at the end of the fight, Sabretooth will have 11 Fury effects in the next fight as passive Permanent effects."

And:

"Developer Note: Sabretooth’s Special 3 Fury has a very short duration but is extremely powerful! Finish fights with his Special 3 Attack to guarantee having this Fury effect in the next fight."

If it was ever the intent of the designer that Sabretooth would be capped at 15 passive fury effects, it nowhere states that or even implies that in his abilities or spotlight. And it would have been trivial to do so, as the abilities could have simply stated "passive fury effects are capped to 15." The fact that the abilities descriptions appear to go way out of their way to *not* say that is at least ambiguous, if not directly contradicting.

Sceptilemaniac · July 2020

TheInfinty said:
Well This is a interesting situation. I think it’s good Kabam realizes that it’s bugged before it goes live. This is a very mixed reaction for me I can see both sides of the argument. I’m gonna try to stay as neutral as possible. On one hand am I upset they are changing him? I mean sorta but not a lot.Bugs plague basically every game in existence. I’m more happy that they fixed the synergy before someone accidentally spent all their money on the new Sasquatch just for the synergy.

See, I'm a casual player and since I wasn't gonna get Sasquatch any soon, I wasn't that excited about the synergy.
That being said, it definitely was way too OP.
But this is a clear nerf to Sabertooth!! He used to be able to get to upto 21 furies without the synergy since he was released. There's a lot of contents, tons of gameplay of it. Didn't kabam see that? Heck his description even says "15 OR MORE furies"
This was clearly a pathetic attempt to avoid introducing an overpowered synergy by nerfing a champion that has been in the game for quite some time.

_hbtygbty423_ · July 2020

Oh well, it was fun while it lasted...

CoatHang3r · July 2020

Potentially Losing his persistent charges to the collector means little when you have other champions behind ST. Additionally getting to that s3 wouldn’t necessarily be very difficult with the KM synergy allowing him to bypass tenacity and unstoppable.

Savage · July 2020

Kabam Miike said:
Hey guys,

Can confirm that this is a Bug. We are discussing the course of action right now and will let you know what exactly needs to be fixed, and how fast we can do it.

Sabretooth should NOT be able to get to this many Fury effects.

For two years Sabretooth has been able to exceed the maximum of 15 passive furies through in-fight conversions depending upon the fury buffs you have, two maximum, at the end of each fight. This is even justified through the champion spotlight. Everyone who has played Sabretooth has known this and has taken advantage of it until his persistant charges went out. Now that you have introduced this synergy, it's the same thing except now he can do it the whole quest. Instead of nerfing his abilities altogether, why not just prevent Sabretooth from getting furies from revives and make it only apply to winning a fight? That way he can probably only achieve 30 maximum depending on how many fights he does? This is definitely not a bug, but a huge nerf and rank down tickets are ABSOLUTELY necessary for this instance. You have completely changed how a champion has worked for a long period of time.

Gkevery · July 2020

ok thanks. i still have not run abyss.... still in aegon-lockout. was hoping this might be an alternitive.... but guess will just wait on the 1/180 chance i get lucky

but will then say, Ok so now “OP Sabertooth” team now consists of
Saber
Sasquatch
Killmonger
(omega red nice add)

how is this any different than the current 4 horsemen?
Aegon
Torch
Doom
Fury

LibertyPrimeV1 · July 2020

Kabam Miike said:
So, just posted this in an announcement, but should share it here too:

Sabretooth has had a long-standing bug where players can maintain more Fury Effects than you should be able to. It states in his Abilities that he can have a maximum of 15 Permanent Passive Fury Effects. Regardless of the method of getting them, you should not be able to exceed this maximum.

We are working to get this fixed as soon as possible. This affects some of the videos that you may have seen where Sabretooth is able to achieve significantly more Passive Fury Effects than intended.

This bug may have been well known to some of you, but it was never the intended case, and this synergy just helped bring it to light. The Synergy was designed to extend Sabretooth's fully ramped state, and not increase the runway for him to ramp up.

The way you say "Regardless of the method of getting them, you should not be able to exceed this maximum." Does that mean the Sp3 Fury Conversion is getting Nerfed also, even though it's a part of his Spotlight that it bypasses the Limit?

Also would it really be too much to ask for his Limit to be increased to even just 20 or 25 Passive Furies, at this stage in the game with Sabretooth's already Limited Utility almost completely relying on Synergies like with Killmonger and his once Rare Coldsnap/Frostbite Immunities now being on Many More and Much Better Champions, all Sabretooth really had was his Damage and now that's getting reduced too...

Realistically in the Majority of Quests you'd never reach 50+ Furies without having to Revive and use many a Health Potions, because not only do you already have a Cap of 5 Conversions in each Fight, even then certain Nodes and Champions can completely Wall him making all of it a real waste of Time and Resources.

As well in fights Quests like Labyrinth and Abyss the initial fights would take so long that you'd hit the Enrage Time in Labyrinth and Combo Cap in Abyss before getting a meaningful amount of Furies, oh but again you'd still have to restart those fights over and over using Revives and Potions because you already have the 5 Conversion Limiter on him... Locking his Fury Passives at 15 really doesn't make sense now that I think about it because that 5 Conversion Limiter already limits the maximum amount of Furies you can get in any one Quest, already talked about Labyrinth/Abyss but even in the other Longest Pieces of Content AQ/AW Sabretooth is an unrealistic choice because of the Utility and Immunities they Require with a only 3 Champion Roster meaning you don't want to waste any Champion Slots.

Rockypantherx · July 2020

Savage said:

Kabam Miike said:
Hey guys,

Can confirm that this is a Bug. We are discussing the course of action right now and will let you know what exactly needs to be fixed, and how fast we can do it.

Sabretooth should NOT be able to get to this many Fury effects.
For two years Sabretooth has been able to exceed the maximum of 15 passive furies through in-fight conversions depending upon the fury buffs you have, two maximum, at the end of each fight. This is even justified through the champion spotlight. Everyone who has played Sabretooth has known this and has taken advantage of it until his persistant charges went out. Now that you have introduced this synergy, it's the same thing except now he can do it the whole quest. Instead of nerfing his abilities altogether, why not just prevent Sabretooth from getting furies from revives and make it only apply to winning a fight? That way he can probably only achieve 30 maximum depending on how many fights he does? This is definitely not a bug, but a huge nerf and rank down tickets are ABSOLUTELY necessary for this instance. You have completely changed how a champion has worked for a long period of time.

This is actually a brilliant suggestion. Seriously.

_Kill_Switch_ · July 2020

DNA3000 said:

Kabam Miike said:
So, just posted this in an announcement, but should share it here too:

Sabretooth has had a long-standing bug where players can maintain more Fury Effects than you should be able to. It states in his Abilities that he can have a maximum of 15 Permanent Passive Fury Effects. Regardless of the method of getting them, you should not be able to exceed this maximum.

We are working to get this fixed as soon as possible. This affects some of the videos that you may have seen where Sabretooth is able to achieve significantly more Passive Fury Effects than intended.

This bug may have been well known to some of you, but it was never the intended case, and this synergy just helped bring it to light. The Synergy was designed to extend Sabretooth's fully ramped state, and not increase the runway for him to ramp up.
It actually doesn't say that. It says in his abilities:

"Sabretooth cannot convert his passive Fury effects while fighting if he has 15 or more permanent passive Fury effects active."

It does not say, or even imply, that Sabretooth is capped at 15 passive furies. In fact, it actually goes out of its way to imply that it is possible to get more than 15 passive furies when it states "... if he has 15 or more permanent passive Fury effects active."

And there are two ways to convert fury buffs to passive fury effects. Both are listed in his abilities. First:

"Dodging back and allowing Sabretooth to idle for 1 second allows him to convert a temporary Fury buff into a permanent passive effect."

This is obviously something you do "while fighting." But there's another way:

"At the start of the fight, if Sabretooth has a Persisstent Charge, he consumes one, re-activating all of his Fury effects that were active at the end of his last fight as permanent Passive Fury effects."

This is something you do when not fighting. His abilities state that when he has "15 or more" passive fury effects, he cannot do the first one to gain any more. But his abilities do not say that the second method doesn't work when he has 15 or more passive Fury effects.

And the Developer spotlight emphasizes the fact that the fury buffs will carry over into the next fight:

"Developer Note: Sabretooth is all about building up damage over multiple fights and will be really good against bosses. Any active Fury effects will be reactivated as passive effects in the next fight if you have a Persistent Charge. This means, if you have 10 passive Permanent Fury effects and 1 temporary Fury Buff active at the end of the fight, Sabretooth will have 11 Fury effects in the next fight as passive Permanent effects."

And:

"Developer Note: Sabretooth’s Special 3 Fury has a very short duration but is extremely powerful! Finish fights with his Special 3 Attack to guarantee having this Fury effect in the next fight."

If it was ever the intent of the designer that Sabretooth would be capped at 15 passive fury effects, it nowhere states that or even implies that in his abilities or spotlight. And it would have been trivial to do so, as the abilities could have simply stated "passive fury effects are capped to 15." The fact that the abilities descriptions appear to go way out of their way to *not* say that is at least ambiguous, if not directly contradicting.

This. I mean... This! THIS RIGHT HERE!

Kabam Miike · July 2020

Hey all,

We're looking into another method to tackle this so it would not affect how you all know and play as him at this time. Will have more information for you all soon.

lowlevelplayer · July 2020

RIP BG and his abyss run

DNA3000 · July 2020

Rhymenocerus said:
Way to go dumbass YTers.

Not sure why you're blaming the content creators. It is part of their job to tear these new champs apart and report on them, and so they were just doing what they were supposed to be doing. And this synergy is so ridiculously overpowered that anyone with a brain who looked at it for more than two seconds would have seen the potential of it. The moment I spent any time looking at the champs carefully I would have blown the whistle on this thing as well. You can't keep something like this a secret.

But the longer it takes to get exposed, the more players will be negatively impacted by the inevitable nerf or change. So it is far better that this get resolved sooner than later.

Sceptilemaniac · July 2020

Kabam Miike said:
Hey all,

We're looking into another method to tackle this so it would not affect how you all know and play as him at this time. Will have more information for you all soon.

What about this being a "long-standing bug" then? Shouldn't bugs get fixed?
Convenience, I guess.
Anyway, I'm glad you guys decided to do this.

Rockypantherx · July 2020

Kabam Miike said:
Hey all,

We're looking into another method to tackle this so it would not affect how you all know and play as him at this time. Will have more information for you all soon.

Thank you! Maybe. But +1 point for being somewhat flexible

LilMaddogHT · July 2020

DNA3000 said:

Kabam Miike said:
So, just posted this in an announcement, but should share it here too:

Sabretooth has had a long-standing bug where players can maintain more Fury Effects than you should be able to. It states in his Abilities that he can have a maximum of 15 Permanent Passive Fury Effects. Regardless of the method of getting them, you should not be able to exceed this maximum.

We are working to get this fixed as soon as possible. This affects some of the videos that you may have seen where Sabretooth is able to achieve significantly more Passive Fury Effects than intended.

This bug may have been well known to some of you, but it was never the intended case, and this synergy just helped bring it to light. The Synergy was designed to extend Sabretooth's fully ramped state, and not increase the runway for him to ramp up.
It actually doesn't say that. It says in his abilities:

"Sabretooth cannot convert his passive Fury effects while fighting if he has 15 or more permanent passive Fury effects active."

It does not say, or even imply, that Sabretooth is capped at 15 passive furies. In fact, it actually goes out of its way to imply that it is possible to get more than 15 passive furies when it states "... if he has 15 or more permanent passive Fury effects active."

And there are two ways to convert fury buffs to passive fury effects. Both are listed in his abilities. First:

"Dodging back and allowing Sabretooth to idle for 1 second allows him to convert a temporary Fury buff into a permanent passive effect."

This is obviously something you do "while fighting." But there's another way:

"At the start of the fight, if Sabretooth has a Persisstent Charge, he consumes one, re-activating all of his Fury effects that were active at the end of his last fight as permanent Passive Fury effects."

This is something you do when not fighting. His abilities state that when he has "15 or more" passive fury effects, he cannot do the first one to gain any more. But his abilities do not say that the second method doesn't work when he has 15 or more passive Fury effects.

And the Developer spotlight emphasizes the fact that the fury buffs will carry over into the next fight:

"Developer Note: Sabretooth is all about building up damage over multiple fights and will be really good against bosses. Any active Fury effects will be reactivated as passive effects in the next fight if you have a Persistent Charge. This means, if you have 10 passive Permanent Fury effects and 1 temporary Fury Buff active at the end of the fight, Sabretooth will have 11 Fury effects in the next fight as passive Permanent effects."

And:

"Developer Note: Sabretooth’s Special 3 Fury has a very short duration but is extremely powerful! Finish fights with his Special 3 Attack to guarantee having this Fury effect in the next fight."

If it was ever the intent of the designer that Sabretooth would be capped at 15 passive fury effects, it nowhere states that or even implies that in his abilities or spotlight. And it would have been trivial to do so, as the abilities could have simply stated "passive fury effects are capped to 15." The fact that the abilities descriptions appear to go way out of their way to *not* say that is at least ambiguous, if not directly contradicting.

All this... This is spot on @DNA3000 and well said. It's NOT a bug. Kabam is trying to nerf ST original's abilities because they are adding a synergy that can make ST op in certain niche situations that actually consumes a lot of resources to accomplish. Getting above 15 furies is a normal map 6 AQ occurrence for me... If you don't want him to get ramped up to super-OP Fury strengths, Kabam should add a cap (above the 15 - maybe 23?) and not cap him altogether at 15.

With 6 Persistent Charges, ST was already capable of achieving 23 furies w/o ANY synergies:
1st fight: Gain 6 charges, manually convert 5, L3 + 10 combo fury at end: Bank 7 Fury
2nd fight: Consume 1 charge to 5, manually convert 5, L3 + 10 combo fury at end: Bank another 7 Fury = 14
3rd fight: Consume 1 charge to 4, manually convert 1 (at max convertable 15), L3 + 10 combo fury at end: Bank another 3 Fury = 17
4th fight: Consume 1 charge to 3, L3 + 10 combo fury at end: Bank another 2 Fury = 19
5th fight: Consume 1 charge to 2, L3 + 10 combo fury at end: Bank another 2 Fury = 21
6th fight: Consume 1 charge to 1, L3 + 10 combo fury at end: Bank another 2 Fury = 23
7th fight: Consume 1 charge to 0. Fight with 23 fury. You can get additional Fury from 10 combo or L3 while fighting but at end nothing will be converted or carried over as all charges are consumed.

You add the Mutant Fury that he gets from the SW/Magento synergy, that fury has been able to be banked at fights end
The Heimdall & Hela/Angela synergy Fury was not able to be banked... I tested it this weekend. No longer bank'able... Thought it was in the past.

Rookiie · July 2020

Kabam Miike said:
Hey all,

We're looking into another method to tackle this so it would not affect how you all know and play as him at this time. Will have more information for you all soon.

Early June?

DNA3000 · July 2020

Savage said:

Kabam Miike said:
Hey guys,

Can confirm that this is a Bug. We are discussing the course of action right now and will let you know what exactly needs to be fixed, and how fast we can do it.

Sabretooth should NOT be able to get to this many Fury effects.
For two years Sabretooth has been able to exceed the maximum of 15 passive furies through in-fight conversions depending upon the fury buffs you have, two maximum, at the end of each fight. This is even justified through the champion spotlight. Everyone who has played Sabretooth has known this and has taken advantage of it until his persistant charges went out. Now that you have introduced this synergy, it's the same thing except now he can do it the whole quest. Instead of nerfing his abilities altogether, why not just prevent Sabretooth from getting furies from revives and make it only apply to winning a fight? That way he can probably only achieve 30 maximum depending on how many fights he does? This is definitely not a bug, but a huge nerf and rank down tickets are ABSOLUTELY necessary for this instance. You have completely changed how a champion has worked for a long period of time.

I think the better option would be to change the synergy and leave ST alone. Change the synergy so that two passive furies are burned to gain a persistent charge with the synergy. Without the synergy, ST works the way he always did. With the synergy he would effectively be capped at 15 passive furies as once he hits 15 the only way he can get more is by holding a fury buff and gaining one for an instant with SP3. Burning two to get a persistent charge would mean when he's played with sustainable persistent charges through the synergy he will be floating at or near 15 passive furies (assuming you keep replenishing the two lost with each SP3).

Sabretooth and Sasquatch Synergy [Merged Threads]

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