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Changes to Defense Tactics for Season 21

2

Comments

  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 4,965 ★★★★★
    edited September 2020

    gsil6374 said:

    For you people who do AW, is this change good or bad? I haven't done alliance wars in a while so I wouldn't know.

    IMO, it isn’t player positive and I’m pretty confused by people saying it tones down stubborn.

    Don’t see how when a modifier that forces blocking, removes the chance to make those required blocks do no damage is a positive thing. Not to mention the lost value to defensive attackers in non stubborn fights that helps get them to the stubborn fights.
    it's just another nerf to the tactic, it'll make war easier and lower item use
    Explain please, there is no context to that statement.

    How is it a nerf?
    How does it make war easier?
    How does it lower item use?
    are you being sarcastic?
    Nope, simple questions because I don’t see how replacing the ability to gain 30% perfect block (in all fights) with the ability to punish a special attack (against a few defenders) doing any of that. Go ahead teach, teach.
  • J0eySn0wJ0eySn0w Posts: 865 ★★★★
    I think the stubborn adjustment is really good. This Apocalypse guy would have caused a lot of trouble with the current stubborn tactics. I haven’t really confirm if he’s defensive but I assume he is.

    I’m guessing, stubborn fights can be a lot more flexible with some creativity than before.

    We can actually test it on upcoming wars.
  • ccrider474ccrider474 Posts: 650 ★★★
    Siliyo said:

    Are you going to change matchmaking times? You guys don’t seem to have a regard for game-life balance, especially for those of us in the EST time zone where war typically ends around 2pm which is in the middle of the day.

    Better than my time zone at 4am.
  • danielmathdanielmath Posts: 4,045 ★★★★★

    gsil6374 said:

    For you people who do AW, is this change good or bad? I haven't done alliance wars in a while so I wouldn't know.

    IMO, it isn’t player positive and I’m pretty confused by people saying it tones down stubborn.

    Don’t see how when a modifier that forces blocking, removes the chance to make those required blocks do no damage is a positive thing. Not to mention the lost value to defensive attackers in non stubborn fights that helps get them to the stubborn fights.
    it's just another nerf to the tactic, it'll make war easier and lower item use
    Explain please, there is no context to that statement.

    How is it a nerf?
    How does it make war easier?
    How does it lower item use?
    are you being sarcastic?
    Nope, simple questions because I don’t see how replacing the ability to gain 30% perfect block (in all fights) with the ability to punish a special attack (against a few defenders) doing any of that. Go ahead teach, teach.
    haha well played! There's only a couple fights where stubborn matters, the biggest one being Thing bosses. Void will now have a much easier time against him
  • Nameless_IWNameless_IW Posts: 980 ★★★★

    gsil6374 said:

    For you people who do AW, is this change good or bad? I haven't done alliance wars in a while so I wouldn't know.

    IMO, it isn’t player positive and I’m pretty confused by people saying it tones down stubborn.

    Don’t see how when a modifier that forces blocking, removes the chance to make those required blocks do no damage is a positive thing. Not to mention the lost value to defensive attackers in non stubborn fights that helps get them to the stubborn fights.
    it's just another nerf to the tactic, it'll make war easier and lower item use
    Explain please, there is no context to that statement.

    How is it a nerf?
    How does it make war easier?
    How does it lower item use?
    are you being sarcastic?
    Nope, simple questions because I don’t see how replacing the ability to gain 30% perfect block (in all fights) with the ability to punish a special attack (against a few defenders) doing any of that. Go ahead teach, teach.
    haha well played! There's only a couple fights where stubborn matters, the biggest one being Thing bosses. Void will now have a much easier time against him
    Thanks for not explaining how this is a nerf, wars will be easier, and how it lowers item use? *thats sarcasm.

    Perhaps you can explain how void will have a much easier time with thing bosses? I ask because the fights I’ve seen against thing bosses won’t benefit from the Change unless you count a couple seconds of up time for the indestructible as more significant than reducing the block damage taken during the fight from a boss with large amounts of attack.

    Stubborn requires blocking to do damage and the added ability to reduce the damage taken while blocking is being removed. I really just cannot see how taking more damage (In all fights, not just stubborn) is beneficial.
    I completely agree with this guy. Kabam is taking out the chance of perfect block for all matches against stubborn/defensive opponents and non stubborn/defensive as well, which means more potions and revives being spent as well.

    Kabam should have let the attacker defensive tactics the way it was with the perfect block chance and just add the indestructible charge on top of it.

    Proposing the change to be read as follow:

    "If the Attacker is #Defensive, their Well-Timed Blocks will grant them 15% Perfect Block chance for 10 second(s), stacking up to 2 time(s) and a Destructible charge. When a #Defensive attacker dodges a hit from a #Defensive defender the Defender does not gain an indestructible passive and one Destructible charge is removed. Consuming a Destructible charge by dodging a special hit will stop the attacker from gaining Indestructible Passive from Stubborn for the duration of the attack.
  • SeraphionSeraphion Posts: 1,496 ★★★★

    gsil6374 said:

    For you people who do AW, is this change good or bad? I haven't done alliance wars in a while so I wouldn't know.

    IMO, it isn’t player positive and I’m pretty confused by people saying it tones down stubborn.

    Don’t see how when a modifier that forces blocking, removes the chance to make those required blocks do no damage is a positive thing. Not to mention the lost value to defensive attackers in non stubborn fights that helps get them to the stubborn fights.
    Bc the really tricky fights are the stunimmune and that makes them a lot easier. Esp if you take 1 combo into your block and you parry everything = 5 charges.

    That will make the bosses a lot easier.

    I would say its a trade off. But I personal like this one more.
  • SeraphionSeraphion Posts: 1,496 ★★★★

    gsil6374 said:

    For you people who do AW, is this change good or bad? I haven't done alliance wars in a while so I wouldn't know.

    IMO, it isn’t player positive and I’m pretty confused by people saying it tones down stubborn.

    Don’t see how when a modifier that forces blocking, removes the chance to make those required blocks do no damage is a positive thing. Not to mention the lost value to defensive attackers in non stubborn fights that helps get them to the stubborn fights.
    it's just another nerf to the tactic, it'll make war easier and lower item use
    Explain please, there is no context to that statement.

    How is it a nerf?
    How does it make war easier?
    How does it lower item use?
    are you being sarcastic?
    Nope, simple questions because I don’t see how replacing the ability to gain 30% perfect block (in all fights) with the ability to punish a special attack (against a few defenders) doing any of that. Go ahead teach, teach.
    haha well played! There's only a couple fights where stubborn matters, the biggest one being Thing bosses. Void will now have a much easier time against him
    Thanks for not explaining how this is a nerf, wars will be easier, and how it lowers item use? *thats sarcasm.

    Perhaps you can explain how void will have a much easier time with thing bosses? I ask because the fights I’ve seen against thing bosses won’t benefit from the Change unless you count a couple seconds of up time for the indestructible as more significant than reducing the block damage taken during the fight from a boss with large amounts of attack.

    Stubborn requires blocking to do damage and the added ability to reduce the damage taken while blocking is being removed. I really just cannot see how taking more damage (In all fights, not just stubborn) is beneficial.
    bc you DONT need to block anymore when you used a few well-timed blocks. Parry a combo or 2 (vs stun immune Thing boss for example) and you are golden for the rest of the fight. 15%-30% PB is nice but not having to block and be able to dex SPs and punish them is much more useful I think. Ofc it sucks vs non stubborn def to lose the PB but I think that trade off is still good.

    Ofc time will tell.
  • GamerGamer Posts: 10,167 ★★★★★
    Seraphion said:

    gsil6374 said:

    For you people who do AW, is this change good or bad? I haven't done alliance wars in a while so I wouldn't know.

    IMO, it isn’t player positive and I’m pretty confused by people saying it tones down stubborn.

    Don’t see how when a modifier that forces blocking, removes the chance to make those required blocks do no damage is a positive thing. Not to mention the lost value to defensive attackers in non stubborn fights that helps get them to the stubborn fights.
    it's just another nerf to the tactic, it'll make war easier and lower item use
    Explain please, there is no context to that statement.

    How is it a nerf?
    How does it make war easier?
    How does it lower item use?
    are you being sarcastic?
    Nope, simple questions because I don’t see how replacing the ability to gain 30% perfect block (in all fights) with the ability to punish a special attack (against a few defenders) doing any of that. Go ahead teach, teach.
    haha well played! There's only a couple fights where stubborn matters, the biggest one being Thing bosses. Void will now have a much easier time against him
    Thanks for not explaining how this is a nerf, wars will be easier, and how it lowers item use? *thats sarcasm.

    Perhaps you can explain how void will have a much easier time with thing bosses? I ask because the fights I’ve seen against thing bosses won’t benefit from the Change unless you count a couple seconds of up time for the indestructible as more significant than reducing the block damage taken during the fight from a boss with large amounts of attack.

    Stubborn requires blocking to do damage and the added ability to reduce the damage taken while blocking is being removed. I really just cannot see how taking more damage (In all fights, not just stubborn) is beneficial.
    bc you DONT need to block anymore when you used a few well-timed blocks. Parry a combo or 2 (vs stun immune Thing boss for example) and you are golden for the rest of the fight. 15%-30% PB is nice but not having to block and be able to dex SPs and punish them is much more useful I think. Ofc it sucks vs non stubborn def to lose the PB but I think that trade off is still good.

    Ofc time will tell.
    That’s depen if the changes is limte to 1 to then it won’t be good at all
  • BassanioBassanio Posts: 162
    edited September 2020
    Kabam Boo said:

    Summoners!


    Stubborn

    Currently, the attacker portion of Stubborn is: If the Attacker is #Defensive, their Well-Timed Blocks grant them 15% Perfect Block chance for 10 second(s), stacking up to 2 time(s).

    Another dramatic change, the updated functionality and description will be: If the Attacker is #Defensive, their Well-Timed Blocks will grant them a Destructible charge. When a #Defensive attacker dodges a hit from a #Defensive defender the Defender does not gain an indestructible passive and one Destructible charge is removed. Consuming a Destructible charge by dodging a special hit will stop the attacker from gaining Indestructible Passive from Stubborn for the duration of the attack.

    Consuming a Destructible charge by dodging a special hit will stop the
    “attacker” or "defender"
    from gaining Indestructible Passive from Stubborn for the duration of the attack.

    @Kabam Miike @Kabam Lyra
  • SeraphionSeraphion Posts: 1,496 ★★★★
    edited September 2020
    Gamer said:

    Seraphion said:

    gsil6374 said:

    For you people who do AW, is this change good or bad? I haven't done alliance wars in a while so I wouldn't know.

    IMO, it isn’t player positive and I’m pretty confused by people saying it tones down stubborn.

    Don’t see how when a modifier that forces blocking, removes the chance to make those required blocks do no damage is a positive thing. Not to mention the lost value to defensive attackers in non stubborn fights that helps get them to the stubborn fights.
    it's just another nerf to the tactic, it'll make war easier and lower item use
    Explain please, there is no context to that statement.

    How is it a nerf?
    How does it make war easier?
    How does it lower item use?
    are you being sarcastic?
    Nope, simple questions because I don’t see how replacing the ability to gain 30% perfect block (in all fights) with the ability to punish a special attack (against a few defenders) doing any of that. Go ahead teach, teach.
    haha well played! There's only a couple fights where stubborn matters, the biggest one being Thing bosses. Void will now have a much easier time against him
    Thanks for not explaining how this is a nerf, wars will be easier, and how it lowers item use? *thats sarcasm.

    Perhaps you can explain how void will have a much easier time with thing bosses? I ask because the fights I’ve seen against thing bosses won’t benefit from the Change unless you count a couple seconds of up time for the indestructible as more significant than reducing the block damage taken during the fight from a boss with large amounts of attack.

    Stubborn requires blocking to do damage and the added ability to reduce the damage taken while blocking is being removed. I really just cannot see how taking more damage (In all fights, not just stubborn) is beneficial.
    bc you DONT need to block anymore when you used a few well-timed blocks. Parry a combo or 2 (vs stun immune Thing boss for example) and you are golden for the rest of the fight. 15%-30% PB is nice but not having to block and be able to dex SPs and punish them is much more useful I think. Ofc it sucks vs non stubborn def to lose the PB but I think that trade off is still good.

    Ofc time will tell.
    That’s depen if the changes is limte to 1 to then it won’t be good at all
    I agree 100% but I think you can stack them after I read how they talked about it:

    "One charge will be removed" suggests to there will be more. But lets see what kabam will tell us.

    If its really only 1 then its worse I think
  • Panchulon21Panchulon21 Posts: 2,605 ★★★★★
    I’m just wondering the same as most folks, is destructible capped at 2/3/4? Or as many as you can take block damage from.
  • Here i agree with @CoatHang3r , Removing PB chance really sucks. I use stubborn attackers most ofthe time, and use void to solo doom bosses. THe PB chance is HUGE. You can wait for the petrify then parry doom's specials. Coupled with KM, that gives void great sustain to take these fights. Now you HAVE to parry doom, who has insane block penetration. Even Vs thing bosses, yo u can parry him to get perfect PB to take blocked hits. This change doesnt really help, or reduce item use. It forces you to take blocked hits.
  • UltimatheoryUltimatheory Posts: 520 ★★★
    I’d prefer to have the perfect block chance tbh. It turned defensive attackers into pretty crazy tanks. It will make some fights easier and some fights harder. Just need to adapt I guess.
  • Can someone explain me what is destructible charge ?
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 4,965 ★★★★★

    Can someone explain me what is destructible charge ?

    A destructible charge is a passive effect gained when an attacking #defensive champion performs a well timed block when the global Stubborn modifier is active.

    The charge cancels out the indestructible charge gained from #defensive defenders when you dodge, evade or cause them to miss an attack.
  • shield456shield456 Posts: 1,979 ★★★
    Why defenders reduced to 3
  • Lvernon15Lvernon15 Posts: 11,596 ★★★★★
    shield456 said:

    Why defenders reduced to 3

    Probably to make it easier to balance, less confusing for people entering tier 5 for the first time etc
  • LeNoirFaineantLeNoirFaineant Posts: 8,638 ★★★★★

    Arifutera said:

    here's a thought although i like the changes ... why not just get rid of defense tactics all together. they cause more stress than necessary on alliances.

    then the top alliances will have a lot of wars that are 0-0, 1-0, etc.
    Oh they can stop that pretty easy by limiting consumables based on war tier.

    here's a thought although i like the changes ... why not just get rid of defense tactics all together. they cause more stress than necessary on alliances.

    then the top alliances will have a lot of wars that are 0-0, 1-0, etc.
    Oh they can stop that pretty easy by limiting consumables based on war tier.
    Then kabam loses some revenue from aw and that will affect the game eventually, we don't want that to happen, do we?
    It would be likely to actually increase revenue in that area as premium consumables would be more valuable to those players.

    So there we go limit consumables based on tier and it’s good for the game. Thanks for your support. ;)
    That would be a fantastic change. Also with regard to revenue, a lot of people quit playing war seriously because of defensive tactics. If they dropped them and it cause more gold/lower plat players to come back that would offset any revenue lost.
  • Colinwhitworth69Colinwhitworth69 Posts: 7,183 ★★★★★


    Prolly a dumb question but do these charges count as debuffs on the defender?

  • Thicco_ModeThicco_Mode Posts: 8,852 ★★★★★



    Prolly a dumb question but do these charges count as debuffs on the defender?

    id assume they are passives
  • WorknprogressWorknprogress Posts: 7,233 ★★★★★
    Haji_Saab said:

    Arifutera said:

    here's a thought although i like the changes ... why not just get rid of defense tactics all together. they cause more stress than necessary on alliances.

    then the top alliances will have a lot of wars that are 0-0, 1-0, etc.
    Oh they can stop that pretty easy by limiting consumables based on war tier.

    here's a thought although i like the changes ... why not just get rid of defense tactics all together. they cause more stress than necessary on alliances.

    then the top alliances will have a lot of wars that are 0-0, 1-0, etc.
    Oh they can stop that pretty easy by limiting consumables based on war tier.
    Then kabam loses some revenue from aw and that will affect the game eventually, we don't want that to happen, do we?
    It would be likely to actually increase revenue in that area as premium consumables would be more valuable to those players.

    So there we go limit consumables based on tier and it’s good for the game. Thanks for your support. ;)
    That would be a fantastic change. Also with regard to revenue, a lot of people quit playing war seriously because of defensive tactics. If they dropped them and it cause more gold/lower plat players to come back that would offset any revenue lost.
    I think defensive tactics in tier 4 and 5 are too much. Those players are not that serious about war to learn how to get around them.

    But the counter argument is that if they don't have defence tactics in those tiers than it is not possible to ever become ready for tier 1 to 3.
    Yeah you have to draw that line and add them in somewhere. Also with most of the people that have major issues with them in those tiers it's not necessarily an ability problem but they just don't care enough about war in general to want to deal with them
  • TheTalentsTheTalents Posts: 2,254 ★★★★★

    Haji_Saab said:

    Arifutera said:

    here's a thought although i like the changes ... why not just get rid of defense tactics all together. they cause more stress than necessary on alliances.

    then the top alliances will have a lot of wars that are 0-0, 1-0, etc.
    Oh they can stop that pretty easy by limiting consumables based on war tier.

    here's a thought although i like the changes ... why not just get rid of defense tactics all together. they cause more stress than necessary on alliances.

    then the top alliances will have a lot of wars that are 0-0, 1-0, etc.
    Oh they can stop that pretty easy by limiting consumables based on war tier.
    Then kabam loses some revenue from aw and that will affect the game eventually, we don't want that to happen, do we?
    It would be likely to actually increase revenue in that area as premium consumables would be more valuable to those players.

    So there we go limit consumables based on tier and it’s good for the game. Thanks for your support. ;)
    That would be a fantastic change. Also with regard to revenue, a lot of people quit playing war seriously because of defensive tactics. If they dropped them and it cause more gold/lower plat players to come back that would offset any revenue lost.
    I think defensive tactics in tier 4 and 5 are too much. Those players are not that serious about war to learn how to get around them.

    But the counter argument is that if they don't have defence tactics in those tiers than it is not possible to ever become ready for tier 1 to 3.
    Yeah you have to draw that line and add them in somewhere. Also with most of the people that have major issues with them in those tiers it's not necessarily an ability problem but they just don't care enough about war in general to want to deal with them
    Its all desire. My alliance started using items again for war because we got too close to the better rewards.

    Also, we have jumped from gold 2 to p3 in two seasons but we did have to use items to get here and I surprisingly no longer hate war. I remember you said that you didn't think the jump would be as high as people think and it is.
  • WorknprogressWorknprogress Posts: 7,233 ★★★★★

    Haji_Saab said:

    Arifutera said:

    here's a thought although i like the changes ... why not just get rid of defense tactics all together. they cause more stress than necessary on alliances.

    then the top alliances will have a lot of wars that are 0-0, 1-0, etc.
    Oh they can stop that pretty easy by limiting consumables based on war tier.

    here's a thought although i like the changes ... why not just get rid of defense tactics all together. they cause more stress than necessary on alliances.

    then the top alliances will have a lot of wars that are 0-0, 1-0, etc.
    Oh they can stop that pretty easy by limiting consumables based on war tier.
    Then kabam loses some revenue from aw and that will affect the game eventually, we don't want that to happen, do we?
    It would be likely to actually increase revenue in that area as premium consumables would be more valuable to those players.

    So there we go limit consumables based on tier and it’s good for the game. Thanks for your support. ;)
    That would be a fantastic change. Also with regard to revenue, a lot of people quit playing war seriously because of defensive tactics. If they dropped them and it cause more gold/lower plat players to come back that would offset any revenue lost.
    I think defensive tactics in tier 4 and 5 are too much. Those players are not that serious about war to learn how to get around them.

    But the counter argument is that if they don't have defence tactics in those tiers than it is not possible to ever become ready for tier 1 to 3.
    Yeah you have to draw that line and add them in somewhere. Also with most of the people that have major issues with them in those tiers it's not necessarily an ability problem but they just don't care enough about war in general to want to deal with them
    Its all desire. My alliance started using items again for war because we got too close to the better rewards.

    Also, we have jumped from gold 2 to p3 in two seasons but we did have to use items to get here and I surprisingly no longer hate war. I remember you said that you didn't think the jump would be as high as people think and it is.
    I said I didn't think it would be for some. I still don't bc while matching is far more normalized than right after the rating cut, I still don't think it's fully leveled out.
  • TheTalentsTheTalents Posts: 2,254 ★★★★★

    Haji_Saab said:

    Arifutera said:

    here's a thought although i like the changes ... why not just get rid of defense tactics all together. they cause more stress than necessary on alliances.

    then the top alliances will have a lot of wars that are 0-0, 1-0, etc.
    Oh they can stop that pretty easy by limiting consumables based on war tier.

    here's a thought although i like the changes ... why not just get rid of defense tactics all together. they cause more stress than necessary on alliances.

    then the top alliances will have a lot of wars that are 0-0, 1-0, etc.
    Oh they can stop that pretty easy by limiting consumables based on war tier.
    Then kabam loses some revenue from aw and that will affect the game eventually, we don't want that to happen, do we?
    It would be likely to actually increase revenue in that area as premium consumables would be more valuable to those players.

    So there we go limit consumables based on tier and it’s good for the game. Thanks for your support. ;)
    That would be a fantastic change. Also with regard to revenue, a lot of people quit playing war seriously because of defensive tactics. If they dropped them and it cause more gold/lower plat players to come back that would offset any revenue lost.
    I think defensive tactics in tier 4 and 5 are too much. Those players are not that serious about war to learn how to get around them.

    But the counter argument is that if they don't have defence tactics in those tiers than it is not possible to ever become ready for tier 1 to 3.
    Yeah you have to draw that line and add them in somewhere. Also with most of the people that have major issues with them in those tiers it's not necessarily an ability problem but they just don't care enough about war in general to want to deal with them
    Its all desire. My alliance started using items again for war because we got too close to the better rewards.

    Also, we have jumped from gold 2 to p3 in two seasons but we did have to use items to get here and I surprisingly no longer hate war. I remember you said that you didn't think the jump would be as high as people think and it is.
    I said I didn't think it would be for some. I still don't bc while matching is far more normalized than right after the rating cut, I still don't think it's fully leveled out.
    It hasn't leveled out yet. But the alliances that are on my level meaning prestige and hero rating are all plat 1. Most alliances I face are still 30-35 mill with 10.2-10.5k prestige. So I might face you in less you guys next season if I'm lucky haha.
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