The first day I saw root I thought 'This is going to be a bit messy..." Only took 2 years to fulfil my prediction.
Root was never well defined and that needs fixing - nowhere does it say it could special lock but that was because it was not an attacker feature when t was release. It did say you can unroot using specials, and this was relevant when root was just a defender node and no champs could do it. The definition was applicable only to us as players fighting defenders who could root us, and we needed an out from the node.
With Kraven's advent they needed to tighten up the mechanic now that it could be used by players, and they didn't. To let it sit there 2 years is telling.
I think their problem now is that it can be infinite with their release of relics/strikers and they didn't foresee that interaction. Without a relic there was only so long you could special lock/root defenders, but with the passive stun of the strikers you can lock especially with power boosts.
RDT would definitely be useful for the unfortunate players who carried their Kravens & Zemos up past r3. The change imo is sensible but the way it was done (or left to sit in the game bugged for years) isn't.
Ir’s insane to me how people advocate for defenders being able to use specials 1 and 2 to break out of root. That would make any root champ the most useless champ in the game.
I'm sorry but what rule is in place that a defender A.I can't do that a human Attacker can do? Relics are the only thing defenders generally can't do that attackers can. If we can do it, theoretically so can A.I defenders. Do you get this mad when you're parried in game modes like arena, AW or BG's?
They’re special locked during root, still are in this patch, just not for sp3 for some reason. You have no point.
They shouldn't be special locked period unless the kit specifically calls for it. Kraven should say SP3 removes root. As it stands now, no root mechanic should special lock anyone, attacker or defender.
There is no point to root if the defender rooted isn't special locked at some level (1 and 2 makes sense) - the way the AI behaves now if there was no special lock they would throw their specials as soon as rooted and the mechanic becomes useless.
Karatemike has made a video and he uses this special lock cuz of root multiple times in fights to lock defenders of their sp3.
He doesn't say it is intended or not but given that he used it as a reliable source to special lock including sp3 should prove that AI was not supposed to throw sp3s
KT1 mentions this at 5:40 - 6:20 He also mentions one of the tweet by ppl at kabam that AI is supposed to only throw heavies or block as long as root lasts
I've never used Kraven but I think rank down tickets should be given
That is dangerous code - the AI currently does things they should not eg blocking in the middle animation of a special. I would not trust any root mechanic that relies on the AI to follow orders
Also, I believe this somehow affected Spot. Since Spot is rooted while Portal Block is active, he is currently inflicted with a Special Lock for the duration of Portal Block, and this isn't mentioned anywhere in his abilities either.
SMH I haven't use Spot since but this is worrying. I forgot Spot was basically rooted when the portal block activates.
He's not working as his description reads, whose fault is it for leveling and using a champ knowing he wasn't working as intended? You cry when they don't fix issues with the game but cry as they fix an issue that you took advantage of? I'm rarely on kabams side but you cant play victim after exploiting a champs abilities that weren't intended.
He's not working as his description reads, whose fault is it for leveling and using a champ knowing he wasn't working as intended? You cry when they don't fix issues with the game but cry as they fix an issue that you took advantage of? I'm rarely on kabams side but you cant play victim after exploiting a champs abilities that weren't intended.
In Kravens Deep Dive it's explicitly mentioned that rooted opponents try to break the root by throwing heavies or block. So yes. It's intended for the AI to not throw specials. It seems AI didn't throw specials in the deep dive video even when they were not being hit. Why is this extending to sp3 is not mentioned anywhere ?
So the more I’ve thought about it, and factoring in the Spot issue, it seems like with this update Kabam made a deliberate change in how root works to switch from an undocumented AI response of throwing heavies to an undocumented SP1/2 lock that comes off when the defender hits 3 full bars of power. Neither of those were ever defined in game.
The special lock only applies to defenders. When you’re rooted as an attacker you can still special out of it. When you play as Spot and hold block you don’t get special locked.
If you trap/root a defender or watch Spot hold block as a defender, they are now SP1/2 locked while rooted. I’m curious if this is also true for Rintrah and Scytalis as a defender. I haven’t tested it yet but I’m guessing it’s the same.
This is a very significant change in a game mechanic with no warning or explanation.
This also doesn’t seem like a change that could be made overnight. I’m assuming they’ve been planning and working on this for some time and the communication just never happened.
I understand if they recognized the Zemo lock was unintended and needed to address it. It didn’t seem game breaking to me but maybe they have data showing it’s being overused and impacting something. This might even be the only way to address it. But announcing he won’t need any rebalancing and then shortly after totally altering a mechanic that his been in the game for a long time that he relies on doesn’t make sense.
We just had the Gambit Relic “fix” with no communication and they said they don’t want that to happen again. Now we’ve got an even bigger “fix” with no communication. And this is the second new champ (Cassie) where they’ve announced no changes for the rebalance and then “fixed” a “bug” shortly after that negatively impacts the champ.
I know mistakes happen. I know bugs need fixed if it’s creating significant unintended consequences. I don’t understand why there are no announcements made as soon as the bug is identified outlining the problem and the plan to fix it so people know a fix is coming. I also don’t know why fixes keep going live with no warning.
And I know the game is in chaos right now with the arena/AW/SQ issues so we might not hear anything on this for a while. This just seems like one of those things that will fall through the cracks and never get explained if this thread doesn’t stay active.
I completely agree with the opinion of the author of the discussion, because there was already a similar situation with the hulk woman, when she could spam with heavy attacks, and everyone shook her when kabam said that it was a bug, and they gave tickets to downgrade, and then for 2 years it was a mistake, it was fixed in a quiet, and they didn't even give her demotion tickets??? I've still got the demotion tickets.
It would be insane for them not to reply to this issue, no matter the other things going on. Even something like "we’ll look into this" is enough for now, but when things have cooled down, a better reply is required.
Ir’s insane to me how people advocate for defenders being able to use specials 1 and 2 to break out of root. That would make any root champ the most useless champ in the game.
I'm sorry but what rule is in place that a defender A.I can't do that a human Attacker can do? Relics are the only thing defenders generally can't do that attackers can. If we can do it, theoretically so can A.I defenders. Do you get this mad when you're parried in game modes like arena, AW or BG's?
They’re special locked during root, still are in this patch, just not for sp3 for some reason. You have no point.
They shouldn't be special locked period unless the kit specifically calls for it. Kraven should say SP3 removes root. As it stands now, no root mechanic should special lock anyone, attacker or defender.
There is no point to root if the defender rooted isn't special locked at some level (1 and 2 makes sense) - the way the AI behaves now if there was no special lock they would throw their specials as soon as rooted and the mechanic becomes useless.
Just to follow up - just used Kraven in arena and after rooting a DD HK he immediately threw his sp1...
It would be insane for them not to reply to this issue, no matter the other things going on. Even something like "we’ll look into this" is enough for now, but when things have cooled down, a better reply is required.
I hope to God they don't just so we can all watch you whine like a baby more
It would be insane for them not to reply to this issue, no matter the other things going on. Even something like "we’ll look into this" is enough for now, but when things have cooled down, a better reply is required.
I hope to God they don't just so we can all watch you whine like a baby more
why are you so petty lmao. if it was you who r5d a champ only for that champ to get nerfed im sure you'd like an rdt.
It would be insane for them not to reply to this issue, no matter the other things going on. Even something like "we’ll look into this" is enough for now, but when things have cooled down, a better reply is required.
I hope to God they don't just so we can all watch you whine like a baby more
why are you so petty lmao. if it was you who r5d a champ only for that champ to get nerfed im sure you'd like an rdt.
They didn't get nerfed though. If kabam fixed the known bug with root then thus is always how the 2 champions who use the mechanic were intended to function
So the more I’ve thought about it, and factoring in the Spot issue, it seems like with this update Kabam made a deliberate change in how root works to switch from an undocumented AI response of throwing heavies to an undocumented SP1/2 lock that comes off when the defender hits 3 full bars of power. Neither of those were ever defined in game.
The special lock only applies to defenders. When you’re rooted as an attacker you can still special out of it. When you play as Spot and hold block you don’t get special locked.
If you trap/root a defender or watch Spot hold block as a defender, they are now SP1/2 locked while rooted. I’m curious if this is also true for Rintrah and Scytalis as a defender. I haven’t tested it yet but I’m guessing it’s the same.
This is a very significant change in a game mechanic with no warning or explanation.
This also doesn’t seem like a change that could be made overnight. I’m assuming they’ve been planning and working on this for some time and the communication just never happened.
I understand if they recognized the Zemo lock was unintended and needed to address it. It didn’t seem game breaking to me but maybe they have data showing it’s being overused and impacting something. This might even be the only way to address it. But announcing he won’t need any rebalancing and then shortly after totally altering a mechanic that his been in the game for a long time that he relies on doesn’t make sense.
We just had the Gambit Relic “fix” with no communication and they said they don’t want that to happen again. Now we’ve got an even bigger “fix” with no communication. And this is the second new champ (Cassie) where they’ve announced no changes for the rebalance and then “fixed” a “bug” shortly after that negatively impacts the champ.
I know mistakes happen. I know bugs need fixed if it’s creating significant unintended consequences. I don’t understand why there are no announcements made as soon as the bug is identified outlining the problem and the plan to fix it so people know a fix is coming. I also don’t know why fixes keep going live with no warning.
And I know the game is in chaos right now with the arena/AW/SQ issues so we might not hear anything on this for a while. This just seems like one of those things that will fall through the cracks and never get explained if this thread doesn’t stay active.
If Zemo's lock was too game breaking then they could have just reduced the combat power rate he gets when the opponent is rooted
Ir’s insane to me how people advocate for defenders being able to use specials 1 and 2 to break out of root. That would make any root champ the most useless champ in the game.
I'm sorry but what rule is in place that a defender A.I can't do that a human Attacker can do? Relics are the only thing defenders generally can't do that attackers can. If we can do it, theoretically so can A.I defenders. Do you get this mad when you're parried in game modes like arena, AW or BG's?
They’re special locked during root, still are in this patch, just not for sp3 for some reason. You have no point.
They shouldn't be special locked period unless the kit specifically calls for it. Kraven should say SP3 removes root. As it stands now, no root mechanic should special lock anyone, attacker or defender.
There is no point to root if the defender rooted isn't special locked at some level (1 and 2 makes sense) - the way the AI behaves now if there was no special lock they would throw their specials as soon as rooted and the mechanic becomes useless.
Just to follow up - just used Kraven in arena and after rooting a DD HK he immediately threw his sp1...
Isn't kravens root a debuff?he might have shrugged it
It would be insane for them not to reply to this issue, no matter the other things going on. Even something like "we’ll look into this" is enough for now, but when things have cooled down, a better reply is required.
I hope to God they don't just so we can all watch you whine like a baby more
why are you so petty lmao. if it was you who r5d a champ only for that champ to get nerfed im sure you'd like an rdt.
They didn't get nerfed though. If kabam fixed the known bug with root then thus is always how the 2 champions who use the mechanic were intended to function
And how were the players supposed to know? Usually how these work is " read the kit" . There was nothing to indicate this. In fact the opposite was clearly showcased even in Kabam's own videos. So it's obvious players will consider this intended mechanics
Ir’s insane to me how people advocate for defenders being able to use specials 1 and 2 to break out of root. That would make any root champ the most useless champ in the game.
I'm sorry but what rule is in place that a defender A.I can't do that a human Attacker can do? Relics are the only thing defenders generally can't do that attackers can. If we can do it, theoretically so can A.I defenders. Do you get this mad when you're parried in game modes like arena, AW or BG's?
They’re special locked during root, still are in this patch, just not for sp3 for some reason. You have no point.
They shouldn't be special locked period unless the kit specifically calls for it. Kraven should say SP3 removes root. As it stands now, no root mechanic should special lock anyone, attacker or defender.
There is no point to root if the defender rooted isn't special locked at some level (1 and 2 makes sense) - the way the AI behaves now if there was no special lock they would throw their specials as soon as rooted and the mechanic becomes useless.
Just to follow up - just used Kraven in arena and after rooting a DD HK he immediately threw his sp1...
Isn't kravens root a debuff?he might have shrugged it
Is it? But even then he threw the special, not shrugged the debuff. He was rooted and threw his sp1 to cancel it.
Ir’s insane to me how people advocate for defenders being able to use specials 1 and 2 to break out of root. That would make any root champ the most useless champ in the game.
I'm sorry but what rule is in place that a defender A.I can't do that a human Attacker can do? Relics are the only thing defenders generally can't do that attackers can. If we can do it, theoretically so can A.I defenders. Do you get this mad when you're parried in game modes like arena, AW or BG's?
They’re special locked during root, still are in this patch, just not for sp3 for some reason. You have no point.
They shouldn't be special locked period unless the kit specifically calls for it. Kraven should say SP3 removes root. As it stands now, no root mechanic should special lock anyone, attacker or defender.
There is no point to root if the defender rooted isn't special locked at some level (1 and 2 makes sense) - the way the AI behaves now if there was no special lock they would throw their specials as soon as rooted and the mechanic becomes useless.
Just to follow up - just used Kraven in arena and after rooting a DD HK he immediately threw his sp1...
Isn't kravens root a debuff?he might have shrugged it
Is it? But even then he threw the special, not shrugged the debuff. He was rooted and threw his sp1 to cancel it.
Likely it was an almost same time, instant thing. Visuals can be a bit off
It would be insane for them not to reply to this issue, no matter the other things going on. Even something like "we’ll look into this" is enough for now, but when things have cooled down, a better reply is required.
I hope to God they don't just so we can all watch you whine like a baby more
why are you so petty lmao. if it was you who r5d a champ only for that champ to get nerfed im sure you'd like an rdt.
They didn't get nerfed though. If kabam fixed the known bug with root then thus is always how the 2 champions who use the mechanic were intended to function
Why do you keep ignoring the question? Can you point to anywhere they’ve ever said Root is bugged? You keep saying “known bug” but this was not known at all.
This whole situation could have been prevented if actual testing was done prior to release. Stop relying on the player base to test champs. Testers are extremely important and there are plenty of players who'd jump at the chance to test. I understand the CCP is an opportunity for CC's to take champs out for test drives, but it's hard to believe that this issue didn't present itself during that time.
I live in Orlando and a buddy of mine tested for EA Sports. Each tester was given situations to test certain game mechanics and/or features. It was purposeful and deliberate and didn't involve casual gameplay to promote characters/teams. We need something like that given the complexity of MCOC.
As for for the text vs gameplay problem, it wouldn't be the first time where the text was accurate but the gameplay differed (see MM). The problem is that, this time around, the text was insufficient and key things were left out of how a mechanic was supposed to work. As players, we have no way in knowing what the true intention was for Kraven, Zemo, or the rest of the root characters. Do we trust what our eyes see during gameplay or do we trust the wording on the abilities page?
Hopefully, going forward, CCP will try and find the exploits, text vs gameplay issues instead of hyping up champs for sales purposes. Stop test driving to the local neighborhood market and take the test drives on a road trip instead. We, as the player-base, would greatly appreciate it.
Ir’s insane to me how people advocate for defenders being able to use specials 1 and 2 to break out of root. That would make any root champ the most useless champ in the game.
I'm sorry but what rule is in place that a defender A.I can't do that a human Attacker can do? Relics are the only thing defenders generally can't do that attackers can. If we can do it, theoretically so can A.I defenders. Do you get this mad when you're parried in game modes like arena, AW or BG's?
They’re special locked during root, still are in this patch, just not for sp3 for some reason. You have no point.
They shouldn't be special locked period unless the kit specifically calls for it. Kraven should say SP3 removes root. As it stands now, no root mechanic should special lock anyone, attacker or defender.
There is no point to root if the defender rooted isn't special locked at some level (1 and 2 makes sense) - the way the AI behaves now if there was no special lock they would throw their specials as soon as rooted and the mechanic becomes useless.
Just to follow up - just used Kraven in arena and after rooting a DD HK he immediately threw his sp1...
Based on my testing, it’s a debuff he shrugged. I just practiced against my DDHK and the first time it happened it did look like he SP1’ed out of it but the timing just happened to line up. Eventually I pushed him into a trap with less than 1 bar of power and he shrugged the root immediately.
I shared it. It was on the Trello board, at least since April.
That says there’s a bug with Zemo. It’s even under champion specific bugs. How is anyone supposed to interpret that into rewriting a mechanic of the game for all champs?
And what about people who ranked Kraven up before April?
Ir’s insane to me how people advocate for defenders being able to use specials 1 and 2 to break out of root. That would make any root champ the most useless champ in the game.
I'm sorry but what rule is in place that a defender A.I can't do that a human Attacker can do? Relics are the only thing defenders generally can't do that attackers can. If we can do it, theoretically so can A.I defenders. Do you get this mad when you're parried in game modes like arena, AW or BG's?
They’re special locked during root, still are in this patch, just not for sp3 for some reason. You have no point.
They shouldn't be special locked period unless the kit specifically calls for it. Kraven should say SP3 removes root. As it stands now, no root mechanic should special lock anyone, attacker or defender.
There is no point to root if the defender rooted isn't special locked at some level (1 and 2 makes sense) - the way the AI behaves now if there was no special lock they would throw their specials as soon as rooted and the mechanic becomes useless.
Just to follow up - just used Kraven in arena and after rooting a DD HK he immediately threw his sp1...
Based on my testing, it’s a debuff he shrugged. I just practiced against my DDHK and the first time it happened it did look like he SP1’ed out of it but the timing just happened to line up. Eventually I pushed him into a trap with less than 1 bar of power and he shrugged the root immediately.
Well I learned something - I thought root was a passive debuff and not "shruggable" - guess it was visual effects lining up then.
The more I think about this in comparison to say the MoleMan situation, I just can’t come to any conclusion where RDTs wouldn’t be an appropriate response. At least in the MoleMan debacle, when even though the community begged for clarification and got nothing, there was at least a communication in the easy to find patch notes. In this instance we got nothing except the often buried, hard to find, poorly updated Trello bug board. I don’t think that counts as good communication of the change at all, especially prior to a major event where people ranked Zemo’s based on the root lock that Kabam allowed to be widely promoted without issuing visible and clear communication that the Root Lock was unintentional.
The Root Lock has been a feature since Kraven’s release in December 2021, meaning it’s been in the game for 18-19 months now. It deserved a large communication in the game and on the forums that ranking up champs for this ability would be a mistake so players could best assess how to spend those resources. Just like MoleMan’s True Accuracy bug did.
In the MoleMan scenario Kabam did the right thing and issued RDTs because of how poorly the communication was handled, and I sincerely hope that like history has repeated itself with how the root lock was handled the precedent set then is repeated as well.
Can someone test this against Galan? He should be special lock immune. I’m wondering if that applies to this special lock via root. I don’t have a Galan of any level to test it on.
I shared it. It was on the Trello board, at least since April.
That's still ages after the champs released. Not enough. Not to mention trello isn't as popular as forums. Least they could have done is put up a forum post since it's such a crucial bug. Or at least, you know, on the Baron Zemo rebalance post
Comments
Root was never well defined and that needs fixing - nowhere does it say it could special lock but that was because it was not an attacker feature when t was release. It did say you can unroot using specials, and this was relevant when root was just a defender node and no champs could do it. The definition was applicable only to us as players fighting defenders who could root us, and we needed an out from the node.
With Kraven's advent they needed to tighten up the mechanic now that it could be used by players, and they didn't. To let it sit there 2 years is telling.
I think their problem now is that it can be infinite with their release of relics/strikers and they didn't foresee that interaction. Without a relic there was only so long you could special lock/root defenders, but with the passive stun of the strikers you can lock especially with power boosts.
RDT would definitely be useful for the unfortunate players who carried their Kravens & Zemos up past r3. The change imo is sensible but the way it was done (or left to sit in the game bugged for years) isn't.
The special lock only applies to defenders. When you’re rooted as an attacker you can still special out of it. When you play as Spot and hold block you don’t get special locked.
If you trap/root a defender or watch Spot hold block as a defender, they are now SP1/2 locked while rooted. I’m curious if this is also true for Rintrah and Scytalis as a defender. I haven’t tested it yet but I’m guessing it’s the same.
This is a very significant change in a game mechanic with no warning or explanation.
This also doesn’t seem like a change that could be made overnight. I’m assuming they’ve been planning and working on this for some time and the communication just never happened.
I understand if they recognized the Zemo lock was unintended and needed to address it. It didn’t seem game breaking to me but maybe they have data showing it’s being overused and impacting something. This might even be the only way to address it. But announcing he won’t need any rebalancing and then shortly after totally altering a mechanic that his been in the game for a long time that he relies on doesn’t make sense.
We just had the Gambit Relic “fix” with no communication and they said they don’t want that to happen again. Now we’ve got an even bigger “fix” with no communication. And this is the second new champ (Cassie) where they’ve announced no changes for the rebalance and then “fixed” a “bug” shortly after that negatively impacts the champ.
I know mistakes happen. I know bugs need fixed if it’s creating significant unintended consequences. I don’t understand why there are no announcements made as soon as the bug is identified outlining the problem and the plan to fix it so people know a fix is coming. I also don’t know why fixes keep going live with no warning.
And I know the game is in chaos right now with the arena/AW/SQ issues so we might not hear anything on this for a while. This just seems like one of those things that will fall through the cracks and never get explained if this thread doesn’t stay active.
Why do you keep ignoring the question? Can you point to anywhere they’ve ever said Root is bugged? You keep saying “known bug” but this was not known at all.
I live in Orlando and a buddy of mine tested for EA Sports. Each tester was given situations to test certain game mechanics and/or features. It was purposeful and deliberate and didn't involve casual gameplay to promote characters/teams. We need something like that given the complexity of MCOC.
As for for the text vs gameplay problem, it wouldn't be the first time where the text was accurate but the gameplay differed (see MM). The problem is that, this time around, the text was insufficient and key things were left out of how a mechanic was supposed to work. As players, we have no way in knowing what the true intention was for Kraven, Zemo, or the rest of the root characters. Do we trust what our eyes see during gameplay or do we trust the wording on the abilities page?
Hopefully, going forward, CCP will try and find the exploits, text vs gameplay issues instead of hyping up champs for sales purposes. Stop test driving to the local neighborhood market and take the test drives on a road trip instead. We, as the player-base, would greatly appreciate it.
And what about people who ranked Kraven up before April?
The Root Lock has been a feature since Kraven’s release in December 2021, meaning it’s been in the game for 18-19 months now. It deserved a large communication in the game and on the forums that ranking up champs for this ability would be a mistake so players could best assess how to spend those resources. Just like MoleMan’s True Accuracy bug did.
In the MoleMan scenario Kabam did the right thing and issued RDTs because of how poorly the communication was handled, and I sincerely hope that like history has repeated itself with how the root lock was handled the precedent set then is repeated as well.