Apple Now Requires Game Developers to disclose odds on "Loot Boxes" [MERGED THREADS]

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For some reason, I don't see this ending in people knowing the drop rates. Lol. Nor do I think it matters. If people want the Champs, they'll go for them. I think this one is being run with. Even if they were shared, people would still open the Crystals.

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Jestress wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

For some reason, I don't see this ending in people knowing the drop rates. Lol. Nor do I think it matters. If people want the Champs, they'll go for them. I think this one is being run with. Even if they were shared, people would still open the Crystals.

I disagree. If I knew the chance at a champ was 25%, I'd be a lot more inclined to try my luck than if the same champ chance was 0.5%.

You already know the chance is low on rare drops. We all do. We still go for them because we want them. If we're not as interested, we don't. We don't need specific numbers for that.

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Then it doesn't matter to you.

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L3X3CU710N3R

Dave_the_destroyer wrote: »

Cant be arsed reding the pages of the same moaners

There is one very simple fix if you dont like the drop rates - dont buy anything in the game! Or better still, dont play the game

Yeah - you could do that, or you could complain that the drop rates suck, and demand that the game is improved, if you aren’t satisfied with the quality.

The whole reason people want to know, in my opinion, is to start a Witch Hunt. I've been a gamer more years than I care to admit. If people want something, they go for it. The TL:DR of this is, "We want to know because we never trusted the drop rates".

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Precisely. Conspiracy.

Born

It’s probably just for purchases made with real money.

All they have to do is stop selling them. Most crystals are purchased with in game currency or shards earned in game.

I doubt they wil have to release any drop rate info. They will get around it somehow.

MH2804

Kabam CEO: Ok guys, how do we deal with apples new order?

Employee 1: Make this game android exclusive!

Employee 2: Milk everyone once more and shut the game down!

Employee 3: Have the legal team on this!

Employee 4: Share the drop rates?

Kabam CEO: Throws employee 4 out the window*

Bahamut

GOD BLESS YOU APPLE!!! KABAM FINALLY HAS TO ADMIT HOW LOW THE DROP RATE FOR 4*S OUT OF PHC!!!

Thatweirdguy

Born wrote: »

It’s probably just for purchases made with real money.

All they have to do is stop selling them. Most crystals are purchased with in game currency or shards earned in game.

I doubt they wil have to release any drop rate info. They will get around it somehow.

I don't know why you think Apple would be this stupid so as to fall for that. Apple is getting in front of what will eventually be federal regulations in the USA. They are not going to allow the app developers to weasel around it using your method. Further, Kabam would not dare try to weasel around it. If they got caught and booted from the app store it is lights out.

CoatHang3r

How is this different from the Chinese government requiring drop rates that were “sure to give us the drop rates” about a year ago. It can only be the Illuminati, amirite?

DrZola

Key term is “purchased.” Items purchased with units are indirectly purchased, which would be a key distinction. But if the end result is disclosure (and I would expect only prospective disclosure, not retrospective), then the easy solution is to only offer class specific things like T4c or awakening gem crystals directly for purchase with cash. The disclosure would simply read that “the item has an equal chance to be any of the six classes.”

Of course, Kabam could also get ahead of all of this by doing the stand-up thing (and shut down all conspiracy speak) by releasing actual drop rate odds. What do you think about that, Ad0ra?

Dr. Zola

Vavasour

Gambling. That is all.

DrZola

Vavasour wrote: »

Gambling. That is all.

Yes. And unregulated gambling at that.

Dr. Zola

Thatweirdguy

Nonsense. The arguments that crystals purchased with units do not count is silly.

DarkestDestroyer

Thatweirdguy wrote: »

Nonsense. The arguments that crystals purchased with units do not count is silly.

Yep as units cost money and 90% of the playerbase buy their units.

DrZola

Thatweirdguy wrote: »

Nonsense. The arguments that crystals purchased with units do not count is silly.

Don’t disagree with you. That would be a highly legalistic argument. But there are a lot of legalistic distinctions that are the law, both in the US and abroad. And here we aren’t talking about a court of law, but rather terms between two private companies. They can agree that “purchased” means anything.

Dr. Zola

Born

Thatweirdguy wrote: »

Born wrote: »

It’s probably just for purchases made with real money.

All they have to do is stop selling them. Most crystals are purchased with in game currency or shards earned in game.

I doubt they wil have to release any drop rate info. They will get around it somehow.

I don't know why you think Apple would be this stupid so as to fall for that. Apple is getting in front of what will eventually be federal regulations in the USA. They are not going to allow the app developers to weasel around it using your method. Further, Kabam would not dare try to weasel around it. If they got caught and booted from the app store it is lights out.

Lol we shall see.

SnakeEyes69

I don't think Kabam will weasel out of this one. Once Apple puts it's foot down developers either fall in line or get booted from the app store. If that happens bye bye MCOC and the cash cow they have.

Thatweirdguy

DrZola wrote: »

Thatweirdguy wrote: »

Nonsense. The arguments that crystals purchased with units do not count is silly.

Don’t disagree with you. That would be a highly legalistic argument. But there are a lot of legalistic distinctions that are the law, both in the US and abroad. And here we aren’t talking about a court of law, but rather terms between two private companies. They can agree that “purchased” means anything.

Dr. Zola

This is Apple's rule right now. If Kabam tries to mess around and find a loophole they risk getting the boot from the app store. That is risk they will not take. I suspect that they will have no choice but to fully disclose and find a new way to make money or improve drop rates.

CoatHang3r wrote: »

How is this different from the Chinese government requiring drop rates that were “sure to give us the drop rates” about a year ago. It can only be the Illuminati, amirite?

The obvious difference is that Apple operates in the US. The Chinese government could not, and cannot, enforce their laws upon companies that do not directly operate in their country. Apple can enforce their appstore rules on anyone anywhere that distributes their apps on the iOS app store.

I have a feeling that Google Play will not be far behind. Apple is probably operating under a combination of altruism and self-interest. They probably care that their customers care about this issue, and they probably want to get out ahead of potential legislation that might be coming.

Personally, I'm all in favor of it. My game design philosophy has always centered around informed choice. In general, except where temporarily necessary for gameplay requirements, players should always be informed about the choices they are asked to make in the game when those choices are irreversible and non-repeatable (in the sense of being able to be redone without significant expense). Whether to buy (with money or in-game currency) a loot box is a choice that should be an informed choice: knowing what the odds of winning certain things is a core requirement for that choice to be informed.

I always knew that the game industry wouldn't choose to do this without a gun to their head, but I always assumed the government would be holding the gun. I didn't think the app store operators (Apple and Google specifically) would be the ones forcing game developers hands. In retrospect, it now seems obvious to me they would want to get out ahead of the problem.

DrZola wrote: »

Thatweirdguy wrote: »

Nonsense. The arguments that crystals purchased with units do not count is silly.

Don’t disagree with you. That would be a highly legalistic argument. But there are a lot of legalistic distinctions that are the law, both in the US and abroad. And here we aren’t talking about a court of law, but rather terms between two private companies. They can agree that “purchased” means anything.

Dr. Zola

Apple can also change the terms at any time to close any loophole the moment any game company attempts to invoke it. I think it is highly unlikely that Apple will allow any game company to loophole their way around the requirement, because there's no benefit to Apple to allow every game company to get around their new requirement. Someone very high up the food chain at Apple has decided it is better for Apple in the long run if they are seen as policing this effectively. Given Apple's history in the past with creating and then enforcing new App store guidelines, there's no reason to believe this is just a paper tiger. Apple doesn't tend to fold paper tigers.

Born wrote: »

It’s probably just for purchases made with real money.

All they have to do is stop selling them. Most crystals are purchased with in game currency or shards earned in game.

I doubt they wil have to release any drop rate info. They will get around it somehow.

That seems unlikely to me simply because most lootboxes in most mobile games are purchased indirectly through in-game currency and Apple had to know that before they wrote the rule. The app store guidelines do not specifically mention "real money." It state:

Apps offering “loot boxes” or other mechanisms that provide randomized virtual items for purchase must disclose the odds of receiving each type of item to customers prior to purchase.

I'm reasonably certain that the intent is "purchased with real world currency or in-game currency" and if too many rules lawyers try to pick the wording apart Apple will just add clarifying language to state purchased includes with in-game currency or real world currency.

I believe the reason the word "purchased" is in there is to distinguish between loot boxes as the game industry normally defines them, and things like random drops that occur during gameplay. For example, 3* and 4* "chests" we run into on maps are not loot boxes, because we just get them we don't "purchase" them in any sense of the word. If MCOC gives them away, or we win them through gameplay, or we get them through some means other than buying them with in-game currency or in-app purchase, they wouldn't fall under this rule.