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So.. Why did Anti-venom get nerfed?

WhisperDARKWhisperDARK Member Posts: 11 ★
in General Discussion
I don't know how this went unnoticed by the community but why did he get a nerf alongside his buff? I'm sure that not many people used him before but even fans of him like grassmcoc didn't mention the nerf to his debuff potency from the sig ability. Basically Anti-venom used to gain up to %50 personal debuff potency scaling with his combo meter up to 50 hits but this got swapped with a passive exacerbate which is permanent with no way of losing the progress. The problem is that this passive effect grants up to a %25 debuff potency down from %50 which is actually a huge deal for a utility champion like Anti-venom. It doesn't put the constraint of keeping up your combo meter which is nice but this was not really necessary as it didn't make it that much more stressful to play him and personally wasn't considered an issue. I honestly don't get why such an important part of his sig ability got nerfed for an ease of use change when it wasn't a problem to begin with. Hearing some kind of clarification or a justification of this decision would be nice.

I also don't see the appeal of going for the sp3 rotation since the buff changes nothing for that scenario. To illustrate with an example, suppose that I'm taking Anti-venom for an evade matchup. I'll stack at least 3 decelerates first and then go for the extra damage. I have 2 options, I either go sp3 for the big stack of furies or straight into an sp2 for quicker damage. Let's assume that I choose the first option, here's how it would turn out:

+I get my debuffs stacked and go for the fat furies.
+Since I needed decelerates asap I probably have them stacked first so my most recent debuffs will either be spectre or disorient.
+In this case when I go for the sp2 with max debuffs I lose all decelerates and keep the disorients/spectres.

So what happened? I lost my main utility for the fight and traded it all for damage like how I used to before the buff.

Such indifference probably won't occur with the sp2 spam though since you'll most likely have 4 of the same debuff stacked and nothing else which would allow you to keep 2 of the debuffs you had priorotized. Although not a perfect fix this will definitely come in handy and I wouldn't have expected the core flaw of the champion to be erased altogether anyway. Aside from these 2 main concerns I appreciate the buff though I don't see them as such major changes as people are making it out to be.

One last thing I'd like to say to those excited for him from the rebirth event is that Anti-venom didn't become a decent champion overnight and the buffs are not as substantial as you think they are. We tend to hype big batches of 7 star releases a bit too much as seen with the same type of event from last year. Keep realistic expectations, not every ok champion will become an absolute powerhouse with a stat focus/higher numbers/minor buffs. I personally don't think much has changed with Anti-venom, he is still mainly a utility champion and not a hard-hitter. If you didn't enjoy or use him before the buff you probably still won't. You're obviously free to give him a try if you never did and see how it works though :blush:

Comments

  • WhisperDARKWhisperDARK Member Posts: 11 ★
    MCOCHazza said:

    Isn’t it the same?

    Old anti-venom had 10% personal debuff potency increase for every 10 hits, and 5% increased non personal debuff potency for every 10 hits. This capped at 50 hits so 50% debuff potency for personal and 25% for non personal.

    Exacerbate (2.5% non damaging debuff potency for new debuffs) whenever he inflicts a personal debuff, and personal debuffs gain an extra 2.5% potency for 5% total, maxing out at 10 stacks. That’s still 50% personal debuff potency.

    The fact that you can’t lose progress on this ability is a good thing. It means nodes that reset your combo or mess with it in some way, now do nothing. Now it’s consistent and reliable and still very effective at providing debuff potency. And they’re passive so they’re literally not going away.

    And the fact that you get them up when you apply a personal debuff is good, you can use the petrify and staggers to get them up so quickly, rather than having to reach 50 combo.

    I thought about it and I'm sorry if I failed to understand the lines of text since I also suffer from reading comprehension issues as an mcoc player. I went in to test if you're correct and got this:



    Not sure if I got super unlucky with a %1 chance or if debuffs don't get their potency updated with each exacerbate passive for some reason. This was also the first special he threw after I got 10 exacerbates and 2 decelerates, I may be missing something so please feel free to clarify.

    Also to answer @ahmynuts could you please ask those %99 of people if they had ever touched Anti-venom for any reason other than cheesing a regeneration matchup with sp1 spam? Fact that you take such community sentiment this serious is even more funny if you ask me when in reality he'll be forgotten in a few weeks at most. My own opinion doesn't mean a thing either since he isn't obtainable as a 7 star yet and his buff has been out for just about a day. We'll see I guess.
  • MCOCHazzaMCOCHazza Member Posts: 953 ★★★★
    edited August 6
    WhisperDARK said:

    MCOCHazza said:

    Isn’t it the same?

    Old anti-venom had 10% personal debuff potency increase for every 10 hits, and 5% increased non personal debuff potency for every 10 hits. This capped at 50 hits so 50% debuff potency for personal and 25% for non personal.

    Exacerbate (2.5% non damaging debuff potency for new debuffs) whenever he inflicts a personal debuff, and personal debuffs gain an extra 2.5% potency for 5% total, maxing out at 10 stacks. That’s still 50% personal debuff potency.

    The fact that you can’t lose progress on this ability is a good thing. It means nodes that reset your combo or mess with it in some way, now do nothing. Now it’s consistent and reliable and still very effective at providing debuff potency. And they’re passive so they’re literally not going away.

    And the fact that you get them up when you apply a personal debuff is good, you can use the petrify and staggers to get them up so quickly, rather than having to reach 50 combo.

    I thought about it and I'm sorry if I failed to understand the lines of text since I also suffer from reading comprehension issues as an mcoc player. I went in to test if you're correct and got this:



    Not sure if I got super unlucky with a %1 chance or if debuffs don't get their potency updated with each exacerbate passive for some reason. This was also the first special he threw after I got 10 exacerbates and 2 decelerates, I may be missing something so please feel free to clarify.

    Also to answer @ahmynuts could you please ask those %99 of people if they had ever touched Anti-venom for any reason other than cheesing a regeneration matchup with sp1 spam? Fact that you take such community sentiment this serious is even more funny if you ask me when in reality he'll be forgotten in a few weeks at most. My own opinion doesn't mean a thing either since he isn't obtainable as a 7 star yet and his buff has been out for just about a day. We'll see I guess.
    Keep in mind only *new* debuffs are affected by exacerbate. So if you weren’t using staggers or the sp1 petrify to build them up, and the decelerates were triggered before getting up 10 exacerbate passives (say you only had 4/5 when each decelerate triggered) they might have had less total potency than what new decelerates would have when triggered *after* 10 exacerbates.

    Based on the wording you used, I’m not sure if you mean to say you got the 10 exacerbates first and THEN got 2 decelerates, or if you built 2 decelerates and then once he reached 10 exacerbates, you baited a special.

    I’ve just tested it and it works correctly once you build 10 exacerbates and then apply the 2 decelerates.
  • WhisperDARKWhisperDARK Member Posts: 11 ★
    edited August 6
    MCOCHazza said:

    WhisperDARK said:

    MCOCHazza said:

    Isn’t it the same?

    Old anti-venom had 10% personal debuff potency increase for every 10 hits, and 5% increased non personal debuff potency for every 10 hits. This capped at 50 hits so 50% debuff potency for personal and 25% for non personal.

    Exacerbate (2.5% non damaging debuff potency for new debuffs) whenever he inflicts a personal debuff, and personal debuffs gain an extra 2.5% potency for 5% total, maxing out at 10 stacks. That’s still 50% personal debuff potency.

    The fact that you can’t lose progress on this ability is a good thing. It means nodes that reset your combo or mess with it in some way, now do nothing. Now it’s consistent and reliable and still very effective at providing debuff potency. And they’re passive so they’re literally not going away.

    And the fact that you get them up when you apply a personal debuff is good, you can use the petrify and staggers to get them up so quickly, rather than having to reach 50 combo.

    I thought about it and I'm sorry if I failed to understand the lines of text since I also suffer from reading comprehension issues as an mcoc player. I went in to test if you're correct and got this:



    Not sure if I got super unlucky with a %1 chance or if debuffs don't get their potency updated with each exacerbate passive for some reason. This was also the first special he threw after I got 10 exacerbates and 2 decelerates, I may be missing something so please feel free to clarify.

    Also to answer @ahmynuts could you please ask those %99 of people if they had ever touched Anti-venom for any reason other than cheesing a regeneration matchup with sp1 spam? Fact that you take such community sentiment this serious is even more funny if you ask me when in reality he'll be forgotten in a few weeks at most. My own opinion doesn't mean a thing either since he isn't obtainable as a 7 star yet and his buff has been out for just about a day. We'll see I guess.
    Keep in mind only *new* debuffs are affected by exacerbate. So if you weren’t using staggers or the sp1 petrify to build them up, and the decelerates were triggered before getting up 10 exacerbate passives (say you only had 4/5 when each decelerate triggered) they might have had less total potency than what new decelerates would have when triggered *after* 10 exacerbates.

    Based on the wording you used, I’m not sure if you mean to say you got the 10 exacerbates first and THEN got 2 decelerates, or if you built 2 decelerates and then once he reached 10 exacerbates, you baited a special.

    If it’s the former, and he is getting unstoppable multiple times despite the slim 1% chance, I’d say there’s a chance anti-venom may not be correctly increasing the debuff potency by an extra 2.5% per exacerbate. Personally I haven’t tested as I can’t really access the game at the moment, but if you’re doing everything correctly and unstoppable is still triggering, it may be bugged.
    I started getting decelerates before all exacerbates were already placed but this result doesn't make sense to me honestly. Their potency should be getting updated with every new exacerbate and I almost have no doubt that this is how it is supposed to work. Think only possibilites are:

    1)Getting unlucky with %1 chance

    2)Poor kit design

    3)Just a bug

    4)Its a nerf as I had assumed

    I'd really like clarification from someone like Kabam Rex if possible (I couldn't tag unfortunately).
  • MCOCHazzaMCOCHazza Member Posts: 953 ★★★★
    WhisperDARK said:

    MCOCHazza said:

    WhisperDARK said:

    MCOCHazza said:

    Isn’t it the same?

    Old anti-venom had 10% personal debuff potency increase for every 10 hits, and 5% increased non personal debuff potency for every 10 hits. This capped at 50 hits so 50% debuff potency for personal and 25% for non personal.

    Exacerbate (2.5% non damaging debuff potency for new debuffs) whenever he inflicts a personal debuff, and personal debuffs gain an extra 2.5% potency for 5% total, maxing out at 10 stacks. That’s still 50% personal debuff potency.

    The fact that you can’t lose progress on this ability is a good thing. It means nodes that reset your combo or mess with it in some way, now do nothing. Now it’s consistent and reliable and still very effective at providing debuff potency. And they’re passive so they’re literally not going away.

    And the fact that you get them up when you apply a personal debuff is good, you can use the petrify and staggers to get them up so quickly, rather than having to reach 50 combo.

    I thought about it and I'm sorry if I failed to understand the lines of text since I also suffer from reading comprehension issues as an mcoc player. I went in to test if you're correct and got this:



    Not sure if I got super unlucky with a %1 chance or if debuffs don't get their potency updated with each exacerbate passive for some reason. This was also the first special he threw after I got 10 exacerbates and 2 decelerates, I may be missing something so please feel free to clarify.

    Also to answer @ahmynuts could you please ask those %99 of people if they had ever touched Anti-venom for any reason other than cheesing a regeneration matchup with sp1 spam? Fact that you take such community sentiment this serious is even more funny if you ask me when in reality he'll be forgotten in a few weeks at most. My own opinion doesn't mean a thing either since he isn't obtainable as a 7 star yet and his buff has been out for just about a day. We'll see I guess.
    Keep in mind only *new* debuffs are affected by exacerbate. So if you weren’t using staggers or the sp1 petrify to build them up, and the decelerates were triggered before getting up 10 exacerbate passives (say you only had 4/5 when each decelerate triggered) they might have had less total potency than what new decelerates would have when triggered *after* 10 exacerbates.

    Based on the wording you used, I’m not sure if you mean to say you got the 10 exacerbates first and THEN got 2 decelerates, or if you built 2 decelerates and then once he reached 10 exacerbates, you baited a special.

    If it’s the former, and he is getting unstoppable multiple times despite the slim 1% chance, I’d say there’s a chance anti-venom may not be correctly increasing the debuff potency by an extra 2.5% per exacerbate. Personally I haven’t tested as I can’t really access the game at the moment, but if you’re doing everything correctly and unstoppable is still triggering, it may be bugged.
    I started getting decelerates before all exacerbates were already placed but this result doesn't make sense to me honestly. Their potency should be getting updated with every new exacerbate and I almost have no doubt that this is how it is supposed to work. Think only possibilites are:

    1)Getting unlucky with %1 chance

    2)Poor kit design

    3)Just a bug

    4)Its a nerf as I had assumed

    I'd really like clarification from someone like @Kabam (Osaurus) Rex if possible
    They definitely only increase new debuffs as they’re applied. This is the same as aptitude, intensify and other similar effects.

    IMO it’s definitely not poor kit design, definitely not a bug and definitely not a nerf as outlined in my first comment.

    I’d love for Mike to come and clarify but I’m certain that this is the way it works.
  • WhisperDARKWhisperDARK Member Posts: 11 ★
    MCOCHazza said:

    WhisperDARK said:

    MCOCHazza said:

    WhisperDARK said:

    MCOCHazza said:

    Isn’t it the same?

    Old anti-venom had 10% personal debuff potency increase for every 10 hits, and 5% increased non personal debuff potency for every 10 hits. This capped at 50 hits so 50% debuff potency for personal and 25% for non personal.

    Exacerbate (2.5% non damaging debuff potency for new debuffs) whenever he inflicts a personal debuff, and personal debuffs gain an extra 2.5% potency for 5% total, maxing out at 10 stacks. That’s still 50% personal debuff potency.

    The fact that you can’t lose progress on this ability is a good thing. It means nodes that reset your combo or mess with it in some way, now do nothing. Now it’s consistent and reliable and still very effective at providing debuff potency. And they’re passive so they’re literally not going away.

    And the fact that you get them up when you apply a personal debuff is good, you can use the petrify and staggers to get them up so quickly, rather than having to reach 50 combo.

    I thought about it and I'm sorry if I failed to understand the lines of text since I also suffer from reading comprehension issues as an mcoc player. I went in to test if you're correct and got this:



    Not sure if I got super unlucky with a %1 chance or if debuffs don't get their potency updated with each exacerbate passive for some reason. This was also the first special he threw after I got 10 exacerbates and 2 decelerates, I may be missing something so please feel free to clarify.

    Also to answer @ahmynuts could you please ask those %99 of people if they had ever touched Anti-venom for any reason other than cheesing a regeneration matchup with sp1 spam? Fact that you take such community sentiment this serious is even more funny if you ask me when in reality he'll be forgotten in a few weeks at most. My own opinion doesn't mean a thing either since he isn't obtainable as a 7 star yet and his buff has been out for just about a day. We'll see I guess.
    Keep in mind only *new* debuffs are affected by exacerbate. So if you weren’t using staggers or the sp1 petrify to build them up, and the decelerates were triggered before getting up 10 exacerbate passives (say you only had 4/5 when each decelerate triggered) they might have had less total potency than what new decelerates would have when triggered *after* 10 exacerbates.

    Based on the wording you used, I’m not sure if you mean to say you got the 10 exacerbates first and THEN got 2 decelerates, or if you built 2 decelerates and then once he reached 10 exacerbates, you baited a special.

    If it’s the former, and he is getting unstoppable multiple times despite the slim 1% chance, I’d say there’s a chance anti-venom may not be correctly increasing the debuff potency by an extra 2.5% per exacerbate. Personally I haven’t tested as I can’t really access the game at the moment, but if you’re doing everything correctly and unstoppable is still triggering, it may be bugged.
    I started getting decelerates before all exacerbates were already placed but this result doesn't make sense to me honestly. Their potency should be getting updated with every new exacerbate and I almost have no doubt that this is how it is supposed to work. Think only possibilites are:

    1)Getting unlucky with %1 chance

    2)Poor kit design

    3)Just a bug

    4)Its a nerf as I had assumed

    I'd really like clarification from someone like @Kabam (Osaurus) Rex if possible
    They definitely only increase new debuffs as they’re applied. This is the same as aptitude, intensify and other similar effects.

    IMO it’s definitely not poor kit design, definitely not a bug and definitely not a nerf as outlined in my first comment.

    I’d love for Mike to come and clarify but I’m certain that this is the way it works.
    But that makes zero sense. In his champion spotlight on release the note under sig ability claims that after 50 hits Anti-venom gets the effect of 3 debuffs for inflicting 2 because of the %50 potency increase. Only way for that to be the case is to first get 50+ hits, then throw a sp2 to remove your debuffs and then inflict the same new ones with increased potency. I don't think that could be the design goal, its just wrong.
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