Bigger consequences for Modders

Zuko_ILCZuko_ILC Posts: 1,186 ★★★★
This seasons alliance wars has been plagued with Modders, I've reported several and all have been removed from their alliances accordingly. The problem is the alliance gets their points adjusted but the one that reported them for cheating doesn't get anything for having to lose. I would like Kabam to impose stricter consequences for modding in AW. From permaban to even dropping a whole tier level. I feel like currently the risk is worth the reward for modders.

I know you guys do as much as you can and I try to report any suspicious activity like I'm supposed to and I appreciate it. I just think that after the announcement made about 3rd party apps that they shouldn't have a couple day ban, they were already warned and should be permabanned.

Thanks for listening and keep up the hard work! We do appreciate it!

Comments

  • Zuko_ILCZuko_ILC Posts: 1,186 ★★★★
    I agree with the premise and goal of your question.
    The issue I see relates to the whole alliance being affected negatively by the actions of 1 or 2 players.
    We cannot assume that every alliance is aware that a member is modding and therefore punish them for that. As an officer in 3 alliances I have had 2 cases where we ultimately kicked a player who initially seemed like a good guy but started having suspicious behavior. (Like having a 1 shot fight against final boss Magik and taking no damage on his 3/30 Captain America). In cases like this we couldn't really change what had happened, we just dealt with the 1 member of 30 that we had reason to be concerned about.

    I am agreeing that it is unfair to the losing alliance because of a cheating player but you are basically asking for 59 people to suffer because of 1 guy. If the modding players are being dealt with I am content with the other 29 member who fought honestly getting the fruits of their labors. I dont think it is justice to punish an entire group like that. The offending player should be permabanned perhaps but dont steal everyone's joy.

    While I understand that, the rules are the rules. In a court of law ignorance is no excuse. We recently had a player join us that breezed through hard nodes without the correct champs. He was reported and booted. If one player cheats in college all the wins are vacated. Just saying well I didn't know isn't good enough or fair to everyone going up against the alliance.
  • CaramesCarames Posts: 269
    Alliances don't necessarily know when cheaters join. Every alliance in the game would probably have a 0 rating at this point if Kabam hammered down that hard.

    We've had guys that got banned that took us by surprise. And we've had guys that don't admit that they're cheating in some way until they've been in the alliance for a while. We always remove anyone that's not on the up and up as soon as we know, but it's ridiculous to state that any alliance that has had a member that cheats should be severely punished. I'd like to think that the majority of people that play are honest.

    If you're in an alliance that is blatantly allowing members to cheat and continue to cheat and are reaping the rewards that come with that, then, absolutely they should be punished.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 24,682 ★★★★★
    I understand that it's an issue. I also have no time for cheating. However, a couple of points.
    Actions taken are in proportion to the situation. If these people are receiving bans and Rating is removed, that is sufficient. I can't support the idea that people who report them get nothing because all that does is benefit people at the expense of others breaking the rules, and it just encourages people to hunt for Modders. It's one thing to come across one. It's another to start a vigilante cause.
    As for permanent bans, it's up to them to take care of discipline, and it has to be a fair system. They take things into account when dealing with issues. They can't just wave a Ban Hammer at everybody. If the situation calls for it, yes. However, if using Mods is prominent, they'll deal with it.
  • Zuko_ILCZuko_ILC Posts: 1,186 ★★★★
    Zuko_ILC wrote: »
    I agree with the premise and goal of your question.
    The issue I see relates to the whole alliance being affected negatively by the actions of 1 or 2 players.
    We cannot assume that every alliance is aware that a member is modding and therefore punish them for that. As an officer in 3 alliances I have had 2 cases where we ultimately kicked a player who initially seemed like a good guy but started having suspicious behavior. (Like having a 1 shot fight against final boss Magik and taking no damage on his 3/30 Captain America). In cases like this we couldn't really change what had happened, we just dealt with the 1 member of 30 that we had reason to be concerned about.

    I am agreeing that it is unfair to the losing alliance because of a cheating player but you are basically asking for 59 people to suffer because of 1 guy. If the modding players are being dealt with I am content with the other 29 member who fought honestly getting the fruits of their labors. I dont think it is justice to punish an entire group like that. The offending player should be permabanned perhaps but dont steal everyone's joy.

    While I understand that, the rules are the rules. In a court of law ignorance is no excuse. We recently had a player join us that breezed through hard nodes without the correct champs. He was reported and booted. If one player cheats in college all the wins are vacated. Just saying well I didn't know isn't good enough or fair to everyone going up against the alliance.

    By the way our alliance was the one that reported the new member. We don't allow cheaters and accept any consequences for self reporting.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 24,682 ★★★★★
    Dropfaith wrote: »
    I understand that it's an issue. I also have no time for cheating. However, a couple of points.
    Actions taken are in proportion to the situation. If these people are receiving bans and Rating is removed, that is sufficient. I can't support the idea that people who report them get nothing because all that does is benefit people at the expense of others breaking the rules, and it just encourages people to hunt for Modders. It's one thing to come across one. It's another to start a vigilante cause.
    As for permanent bans, it's up to them to take care of discipline, and it has to be a fair system. They take things into account when dealing with issues. They can't just wave a Ban Hammer at everybody. If the situation calls for it, yes. However, if using Mods is prominent, they'll deal with it.

    I see nothing wrong modders and acct sharers are good for the game no punishment should be done ever..

    I changed my direction to suit how others feel.

    That's seriously not what I said at all.
  • Zuko_ILCZuko_ILC Posts: 1,186 ★★★★
    Dropfaith wrote: »
    It's not always about you. But you keep saying they can't wave the ban hammer at cheaters and players shouldn t look for cheaters ..

    Might as well just say you support them

    Please stop taking the thread off topic to get into a debate. This happens all the time with certain people and I'd like for this topic to stay on point about if you think penalties need to be more severe. Thanks.
  • I agree with your point Zuko_ILC. Most alliance wars are close and the impact of one or two members who use mods can make the difference. That means rewards that should have gone to one group of people are given to another. This should be rectified.
  • Zuko_ILCZuko_ILC Posts: 1,186 ★★★★
    Dropfaith wrote: »
    Zuko_ILC wrote: »
    Dropfaith wrote: »
    It's not always about you. But you keep saying they can't wave the ban hammer at cheaters and players shouldn t look for cheaters ..

    Might as well just say you support them

    Please stop taking the thread off topic to get into a debate. This happens all the time with certain people and I'd like for this topic to stay on point about if you think penalties need to be more severe. Thanks.

    I think perm bans on first offense and zero out all season rewards right the allaince.
    Includes piloting/acct shares..

    I think for modding 1st offense should be perm ban. As for alliances they need the win stripped from them at minimum and a penalty for points (maybe 50% after deduction of win bonus). As for piloting/acct shares thats a different topic so I won't address that here. But after the email warning modders they need to be more strict.
  • KnightarthusKnightarthus Posts: 419 ★★★
    Zuko_ILC wrote: »
    This seasons alliance wars has been plagued with Modders, I've reported several and all have been removed from their alliances accordingly. The problem is the alliance gets their points adjusted but the one that reported them for cheating doesn't get anything for having to lose. I would like Kabam to impose stricter consequences for modding in AW. From permaban to even dropping a whole tier level. I feel like currently the risk is worth the reward for modders.

    I know you guys do as much as you can and I try to report any suspicious activity like I'm supposed to and I appreciate it. I just think that after the announcement made about 3rd party apps that they shouldn't have a couple day ban, they were already warned and should be permabanned.

    Thanks for listening and keep up the hard work! We do appreciate it!


    I’m with strict penalties for individual modders up to perma bans but not for the entire alliance except proven culprits.
  • abn86abn86 Posts: 51
    edited February 2018
    I agree with this. As someone who spends (and has spent, and will spend again) it bothers me when cheaters affect me personally. Now, if you're playing one of the old Pokemon games and you want to give yourself all the best pokemon, so be it - I'm not battling you. You want to play Age of Empires and add in a car that shoots laser beams into your game, so be it. It doesn't affect me personally.

    But this game isn't like those -- it's a *ahem* contest. You compete with these "players" in AW directly. You also compete with their alliance in AQ. You compete with these players in arenas. They can take spots in arena that should have went to another legit player. They can turn the tide of a war. Any champs that were gamed alters prestige which changes scoring. Want to run map 6? Who better to use than a modder? So yes, why not hit them with a perma-ban? There is NO legit reason to run mods, and as such, I don't see why a temp ban would even be an option. The player used mods to gain resources that he/she legitimately would not have had. If this game was entirely free, I guess I would understand a temp ban, but in a game where we can pay actual money to improve champs/roster there is no reason to temp ban for, essentially, theft. If I go to Walmart, and steal less than $100, would that stop them from prosecuting me? Or is theft still theft? But, but I had a good reason. But, but I spent money in Walmart before. But, but..it doesn't matter. There's no legitimate reason why someone who has modded deserves to have their account back. Just my two pennies, though.

    Edit: Forgot to mention, I'm in a war right now, and there's an obvious modder (lvl 50 with a 6* YJ but unbelievably low stats). He's playing fairly atm, but it's 3 kills to 2. If he decides to get his mod on, he can easily finish this, and possibly change the tide of the war. And even if I report him, and he's banned, what about my ally? What about our shards? What about the boosts that guys may have used, or pots/revives? There's no compensation for that. We just have to deal with it.
  • dkatryldkatryl Posts: 673 ★★★
    Perma ban the offending player's account, that much is a given.

    As to the penalty to the offending Alliance, I think it would come down to how upfront and honest the Alliance was. I think if the Alliance self-reported the offending player before action was taken against the player, then they should keep whatever points they had earned in that match, however, they automatically lose the match, forfeiting the 50k win bonus and corresponding loss of rating. The other team automatically wins.

    If the Alliance did NOT self report, then it could be assumed they were complicit and willing to benefit from cheating. They not only automatically lose the match, they will have their match points zeroed out. The other Alliance automatically wins the match with full points.
  • Zuko_ILC wrote: »
    I would like Kabam to impose stricter consequences for modding in AW. From permaban to even dropping a whole tier level. I feel like currently the risk is worth the reward for modders.

    I believe that in general, cheating should be reported and punished. Having said that, the question is what sort of punishment would deter modders specifically. The punishment intrinsic to a perma ban is that you lose all that you built up in your account. For most players, that is a very severe punishment. But is it a severe punishment to a modder? If you are willing to hack the game directly, how hard is it to replace an account?

    I'm not saying we shouldn't ban them: banning modders seems entirely appropriate. But I'm wondering just how much we can reduce the behavior by banning. If you are account sharing or piloting, the threat of a ban can be substantial. But if the player is hacking the game and can easily recreate a powerful account through hacking, I don't know how much of a real deterrent bans are. Its a bit of a whack a mole.

    Certainly, taking points and rating away for an alliance with a cheating member is a very severe punishment - because that takes things away you can't simply replace. But I don't think you can automatically award the other alliance the win. As you mention, in college sports you can punish a team for cheating by vacating their wins. But when the NCAA vacates wins, they do not simultaneously reverse losses. If team A beats team B and then team A is caught cheating and the win is vacated, officially team B loses and team A doesn't win. In other words, team A has zero wins and zero losses and team B has zero wins and one loss. A lot of people think it is weird, but that's what happens.

    There's no perfect solution to address cheating because there's no way to know what would have happened without cheating. The most logical way to deal with cheating given that, I believe, is to neutralize any advantage due to cheating to the best extent possible. That means removing all benefit from the cheater and anyone the cheater aided. But extending the punishment to award victories in effect grants a benefit to someone due to cheating, which I don't think should happen. There's a saying in the criminal justice system that says better ten guilty people go free than one innocent person go to prison. Here, I believe we want to remedy the problem of someone losing because their opponent cheated and we do not want anyone anywhere to benefit from the actions of a cheater, and in my opinion the latter takes precedent over the former. The only way we can fix the problem of someone losing to a cheater is to give them a benefit because they were the victim of a cheater - an automatic win when we don't know if they would have won. I place a higher priority on not doing that personally as a matter of principle.
  • klobberintymeklobberintyme Posts: 855 ★★★
    fun fact: in season competition, a stealth 1-punch modder can:

    1) join with 5 minutes left
    2) 1-punch kill a miniboss and a boss with seconds to spare
    3) (assuming no one else took a poke at the boss) collect 20k boss-kill points as well as attack bonus
    4) usually get away without being reported if the alliances are in different time zones

    Best of all, even if they still lose, that's 25k extra points they wouldn't have gotten otherwise, and the math says a loser 3x who clears a boss gets the same points as a winner 2x who doesn't beat a boss.

    Even better, teammates can honestly say I Had No Idea What Is This Craziness I Didn't See It You Can't Prove Anything You're Just Sore Losers Etc.

    Question is why wouldn't teams push the limits to get their fingers on those 6 star shards?
  • RehctansBewRehctansBew Posts: 436 ★★★
    This is a tricky slope, I've seen my alliance lose 3K worth of shards from modders in AW. Yet at least 4 of the wars the reported players were banned only 1 week. This by no means deters alliances from having modders in their group. They just won 2400 in shards for the week and one player sits out the following week. So why wouldn't they want them. Especially if they aren't trying for ranked rewards. So while those other members may or may not have known, I find it hard to not recognize when someone in your alliance has an added edge. They magically clear path 24 with champs that otherwise wouldn't be considered solid options to do it, without taking even block damage. Then magically they take a hit the next node from a 4*. Something should tell you that doesn't seem right. When you have a guy that has finished LOL but doesn't have an SL on his roster and under 200K rating you might want to step back and ask, is that feasible. Could one beat LOL with an r4 spiderman?

    The biggest joke is the length of bans, its a slap in the face from kabam, that when a player cheats another player it's only worth 7 days, but if you beat a path in LOL its permanent. What kind of **** is that.

    When an alliance is found to have won wars with a modding player, the losing teams should get all there items returned and half the war rewards. We spend to complete the map when needed and to lose on a one punch boss kill is ridiculous. Strip points way from the alliance for every war the guilty party participated. Yes this screws over 25-29 other honest guys. But ask yourself how well you know the people you game with in your alliance and we all know when something doesn't add up.
  • Hey guys -

    We understand your concern towards this and thank you for your feedback on it. I know this can be concerning to have happened within your alliance or another, but we handle bans for TOS based on the infraction. This reflects on a person's account and falls into the realm of how we don't discuss those as it isn't happening directly to your account.

    As for the discussion on how this should affect an entire alliance, we appreciate the feedback and concerns on the matter. However, again, it would be handled based on the infraction of the ToS and not a matter we'd be able to discuss openly here on the forums.
This discussion has been closed.