**WINTER OF WOE - BONUS OBJECTIVE POINT**
As previously announced, the team will be distributing an additional point toward milestones to anyone who completed the Absorbing Man fight in the first step of the Winter of Woe.
This point will be distributed at a later time as it requires the team to pull and analyze data.
The timeline has not been set, but work has started.
There is currently an issue where some Alliances are are unable to find a match in Alliance Wars, or are receiving Byes without getting the benefits of the Win. We will be adjusting the Season Points of the Alliances that are affected within the coming weeks, and will be working to compensate them for their missed Per War rewards as well.

Additionally, we are working to address an issue where new Members of an Alliance are unable to place Defenders for the next War after joining. We are working to address this, but it will require a future update.

Multiple Account Wars

124

Comments

  • Liss_Bliss_Liss_Bliss_ Posts: 1,779 ★★★★★
    Verzz wrote: »
    Verzz wrote: »
    Verzz wrote: »
    It’s not unfair at all and is actually the definition of “fair” - the person that is playing the 10-30 accounts has to put the effort into all the accounts alone so he will get exactly what he puts into the game with those accounts.

    In war, if he is better than the multiplayer alliance’s average skill he will win providing he has the time and if he is worse he will lose.

    So seeing as this is fair and is not really going to affect anything even close to what real piloting is I don’t think anything will be done with this.

    That's not what makes it fair. People can put effort into anything. Doesn't make it right.
    Ok so I re-read your OP and I guess you are just complaining about the rules and what you think is fair. But about the questions you asked, even if I thought it wasn’t fair, they have repeatedly said that you can have multiple accounts if you are the sole player. And alliances also exist in this game. How could they possibly do anything unless they ban multiple accounts outright?

    They have commented on owning multiple Accounts. I have yet to see a comment in reference to Wars with multiple Accounts. Seasons have added a new layer of competition and now it's not just people playing Wars with Alts. It's a Ranking system as well.

    Are you saying they have never said that you can have multiple accounts since seasons started or that it is something they should look at? They have said you can have multiple accounts in this game and everything we are talking about (wars, ranking system) is part of the game isn’t it?

    What I'm saying is they've said multiple Accounts are allowed. I have yet to see any comment in regards to using multiple Accounts in Wars. Lots of people claiming they were dinged because of using multiple Accounts, but they're not likely to comment in those instances because they don't discuss actions taken.

    Why is that an issue for you? Multiple accounts are allowed. Who cares if someone chooses to use all their accounts in the same alliance? What harm does it do?
  • CFreeCFree Posts: 491 ★★
    If Kabam made a rule to stop it, you would be happy about it. That guy and the other 3 guys who are doing it would be screwed since they built those accounts under the rules and wouldn't be able to use them the way they want anymore. Everyone else who plays the game would be unaffected...

    If something gives an unfair advantage, that's more pressing than the feelings of the people taking said advantage.

    It's really hard to build that many teams. If this guy is the whole alliance he can't possibly grind enough to get the full advantage of being in an alliance. If he is getting an unfair advantage it's a very, very small advantage against a very few number of alliances. The police are dealing with robberies, domestic violence, murder... and you are standing there trying to direct them to the jaywalker.

    I don’t accept his definition of “unfair.”
  • CFreeCFree Posts: 491 ★★
    Should there be preventative measures or regulations to prevent these Wars?

    No.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,193 ★★★★★
    edited November 2018
    Without getting into details, we're in a War at the moment. The majority of the Ally is one person. How do I know? Let's just say they're not creative in their IGNs. All derivatives and/or same names. How it's a problem is it's the same person, same skill level, and they're almost halfway done the Map before we've even started taking Nodes down. Now, I don't know for sure, but I suspect they look into cases such as this. It may fall under Piloting. That's not really what I wanted to debate. Should there be preventative measures or regulations to prevent these Wars? It's not at all fair for people to encounter. I'm not even sure what kind of measures you could put into place. Thoughts?

    I wasn’t going to post, but this has dragged on and on to the point that people are repeating themselves.

    Short answer: No. simple.

    Long answer:
    1: Let us take a hard look at piloting from this games standards. Piloting involves logging into an account that is not yours, and fighting in the most competitive game mode there is AW. Let’s repeat that and bold and italicize key words. >Piloting involves logging into an account that is not yours< here is where contention is held. If these are legitimately said players accounts and created by him, not purchased, then this is not, by definition piloting.
    2: Limiting the amount of account one person can use in one alliance is too big brother to me. Basically you are telling said player how to play the game. Who’s to say this guy doesn’t have social awkwardness that prevents him from taking to people. I knew a deaf guy in WoW that multi boxed 5v5 arena teams. He would also use said 5v5 team to clear non heroic dungeons. Would you tell him, he is doing something wrong?
    3: Your claim of taking rewards from 29 other people is illogical, simply because each account is its own entity, just ran by 1 person. So 29 other accounts are getting rewards.
    4: To me, and this is just how I feel and not a dig at you @GroundedWisdom but I feel like you are salty about this situation because you feel like that guy is doing something wrong. And that line of thinking, again this is how I feel and not a dig at you, but to me it screams entitlement. You are calling fouls because said player exhibits skill, and you may lose to a single person.
    5: the better way to look at this is, how can we as an alliance set paths better so we can down nodes in a quick fashion. How can we as an alliance better ourselves to raise our skill level.

    In closing piloting is not happening unless said person bought accounts. And it’s not unfair to other players, because he is not doing anything wrong.

    That's not even the issue I'm presenting, and I explained my view on Piloting. I didn't say it was exactly the same.
    My point, which continues to be bypassed, is that it is not fair to run multiple Accounts in Seasons for Season Rewards. Not to the extreme I'm talking about. As I previously said, if there were a limit, say one Alt per Ally in modes like War, that would be less detrimental than having 5+ in one BG. It's not fair, nor is it logical. It's taking advantage of a system that is really intended for teams of people.
    Entitlement, hardly. We can accept our Wins and Losses. What's not right is one person monopolizing spots on the board with many Accounts. It has nothing to do with our skill or organization. We can accept our own limitations. What creates a problem is when people are using the excuse that multiple Accounts are allowed, and milking the Rewards out of a game mode that's not meant for individual people. Otherwise, it would have been called Account Wars.
    Let's take an extreme hypothetical. One person opens 50 Accounts and creates 5 Allies. That person runs Wars and takes up 5 spots in the Seasons Leaderboard. Is that acceptable because they're allowed multiple Accounts? No. It's not acceptable. Hiding behind the guise of the rules is not an automatic excuse for something that is unfair. Rules are revisited. Which is why I'm here, to bring to light an issue.
    The fact that people are arguing adamantly that there is nothing wrong with it boggles my mind. Regardless, it is not fair, and no matter how you justify it, it's taking more than one's share. It's not fair to the people playing within their own limits. Not at all.
  • The fact that people are arguing adamantly that there is nothing wrong with it boggles my mind.

    The fact that you keep claiming there's something wrong without even presenting an argument is boggling everyone else's mind. You just keep saying it is wrong, because it is obviously wrong.
    Let's take an extreme hypothetical. One person opens 50 Accounts and creates 5 Allies. That person runs Wars and takes up 5 spots in the Seasons Leaderboard. Is that acceptable because they're allowed multiple Accounts? No. It's not acceptable.

    That's not unacceptable. That's impossible. No alliance with only ten accounts in it can place anywhere near the top spot in the season leaderboard. Not even if every single account was a computer controlled bot that played perfectly and used mods to hack their way to victory. It is mathematically impossible. Just to take *one* spot a person would have to legally play thirty accounts. They'd need to play sixty to take two. I don't see how it would be possible for a single person to take up multiple spots on the leaderboard, but if they did so they would need to spend so much money to outfit all 150 accounts it would take to do that, that they would probably be single handedly funding the development of Act 7. Such a person doesn't need to multibox a hundred fifty accounts, they would just buy Kabam and permanently etch their name onto the leaderboard.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,193 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    The fact that people are arguing adamantly that there is nothing wrong with it boggles my mind.

    The fact that you keep claiming there's something wrong without even presenting an argument is boggling everyone else's mind. You just keep saying it is wrong, because it is obviously wrong.
    Let's take an extreme hypothetical. One person opens 50 Accounts and creates 5 Allies. That person runs Wars and takes up 5 spots in the Seasons Leaderboard. Is that acceptable because they're allowed multiple Accounts? No. It's not acceptable.

    That's not unacceptable. That's impossible. No alliance with only ten accounts in it can place anywhere near the top spot in the season leaderboard. Not even if every single account was a computer controlled bot that played perfectly and used mods to hack their way to victory. It is mathematically impossible. Just to take *one* spot a person would have to legally play thirty accounts. They'd need to play sixty to take two. I don't see how it would be possible for a single person to take up multiple spots on the leaderboard, but if they did so they would need to spend so much money to outfit all 150 accounts it would take to do that, that they would probably be single handedly funding the development of Act 7. Such a person doesn't need to multibox a hundred fifty accounts, they would just buy Kabam and permanently etch their name onto the leaderboard.

    First of all, I presented reasons. You're just ignoring them.
    Secondly, my example mentioned nothing about top spots. It mentioned taking up spots. Spots that are intended for groups of Players. Not one.
  • Liss_Bliss_Liss_Bliss_ Posts: 1,779 ★★★★★
    Without getting into details, we're in a War at the moment. The majority of the Ally is one person. How do I know? Let's just say they're not creative in their IGNs. All derivatives and/or same names. How it's a problem is it's the same person, same skill level, and they're almost halfway done the Map before we've even started taking Nodes down. Now, I don't know for sure, but I suspect they look into cases such as this. It may fall under Piloting. That's not really what I wanted to debate. Should there be preventative measures or regulations to prevent these Wars? It's not at all fair for people to encounter. I'm not even sure what kind of measures you could put into place. Thoughts?

    I wasn’t going to post, but this has dragged on and on to the point that people are repeating themselves.

    Short answer: No. simple.

    Long answer:
    1: Let us take a hard look at piloting from this games standards. Piloting involves logging into an account that is not yours, and fighting in the most competitive game mode there is AW. Let’s repeat that and bold and italicize key words. >Piloting involves logging into an account that is not yours< here is where contention is held. If these are legitimately said players accounts and created by him, not purchased, then this is not, by definition piloting.
    2: Limiting the amount of account one person can use in one alliance is too big brother to me. Basically you are telling said player how to play the game. Who’s to say this guy doesn’t have social awkwardness that prevents him from taking to people. I knew a deaf guy in WoW that multi boxed 5v5 arena teams. He would also use said 5v5 team to clear non heroic dungeons. Would you tell him, he is doing something wrong?
    3: Your claim of taking rewards from 29 other people is illogical, simply because each account is its own entity, just ran by 1 person. So 29 other accounts are getting rewards.
    4: To me, and this is just how I feel and not a dig at you @GroundedWisdom but I feel like you are salty about this situation because you feel like that guy is doing something wrong. And that line of thinking, again this is how I feel and not a dig at you, but to me it screams entitlement. You are calling fouls because said player exhibits skill, and you may lose to a single person.
    5: the better way to look at this is, how can we as an alliance set paths better so we can down nodes in a quick fashion. How can we as an alliance better ourselves to raise our skill level.

    In closing piloting is not happening unless said person bought accounts. And it’s not unfair to other players, because he is not doing anything wrong.

    That's not even the issue I'm presenting, and I explained my view on Piloting. I didn't say it was exactly the same.
    My point, which continues to be bypassed, is that it is not fair to run multiple Accounts in Seasons for Season Rewards. Not to the extreme I'm talking about.

    The thing is, that’s a biased view. You are saying this because it’s being used against you.
    As I previously said, if there were a limit, say one Alt per Ally in modes like War, that would be less detrimental than having 5+ in one BG. It's not fair, nor is it logical. It's taking advantage of a system that is really intended for teams of people.

    Why limit something that someone does? Isn’t that in itself unfair? Let’s view it this way, anyone who has a W in their name can’t do uncollected EQ 100%. They can’t be allowed to fully explore. Is that fair? Governing how people play this game is not something you nor Kabam should be allowed to do.
    Entitlement, hardly. We can accept our Wins and Losses. What's not right is one person monopolizing spots on the board with many Accounts. It has nothing to do with our skill or organization. We can accept our own limitations. What creates a problem is when people are using the excuse that multiple Accounts are allowed, and milking the Rewards out of a game mode that's not meant for individual people. Otherwise, it would have been called Account Wars.

    Again that is your view brought upon because of your current situation. They are not milking rewards. He has an ALLIANCE made up of SEPERATE accounts. Ergo he is still in the spirit of the game.
    Let's take an extreme hypothetical. One person opens 50 Accounts and creates 5 Allies. That person runs Wars and takes up 5 spots in the Seasons Leaderboard. Is that acceptable because they're allowed multiple Accounts? No. It's not acceptable.

    Your views shouldn’t supersede the rules of the game. He isn’t taking up 5 leaderboard spots because he earned those.
    Hiding behind the guise of the rules is not an automatic excuse for something that is unfair. Rules are revisited. Which is why I'm here, to bring to light an issue.

    That’s the thing, there is no issue. He chooses to play the game his way, you thinking there needs to be limitations on how someone can play is absurd.
    The fact that people are arguing adamantly that there is nothing wrong with it boggles my mind. Regardless, it is not fair, and no matter how you justify it, it's taking more than one's share. It's not fair to the people playing within their own limits. Not at all.

    It’s simply because we as a community don’t see an issue with it. The thing is, when people are faced with with situations like this they cry foul because they are not benifitng from it. You are under the illusion that because you view it as wrong it has to be. But until Kabam come down and says this violates somethig, it doesn’t. And I am sure Kabam won’t, simply because they would then be dictating how people play their time.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,193 ★★★★★
    Without getting into details, we're in a War at the moment. The majority of the Ally is one person. How do I know? Let's just say they're not creative in their IGNs. All derivatives and/or same names. How it's a problem is it's the same person, same skill level, and they're almost halfway done the Map before we've even started taking Nodes down. Now, I don't know for sure, but I suspect they look into cases such as this. It may fall under Piloting. That's not really what I wanted to debate. Should there be preventative measures or regulations to prevent these Wars? It's not at all fair for people to encounter. I'm not even sure what kind of measures you could put into place. Thoughts?

    I wasn’t going to post, but this has dragged on and on to the point that people are repeating themselves.

    Short answer: No. simple.

    Long answer:
    1: Let us take a hard look at piloting from this games standards. Piloting involves logging into an account that is not yours, and fighting in the most competitive game mode there is AW. Let’s repeat that and bold and italicize key words. >Piloting involves logging into an account that is not yours< here is where contention is held. If these are legitimately said players accounts and created by him, not purchased, then this is not, by definition piloting.
    2: Limiting the amount of account one person can use in one alliance is too big brother to me. Basically you are telling said player how to play the game. Who’s to say this guy doesn’t have social awkwardness that prevents him from taking to people. I knew a deaf guy in WoW that multi boxed 5v5 arena teams. He would also use said 5v5 team to clear non heroic dungeons. Would you tell him, he is doing something wrong?
    3: Your claim of taking rewards from 29 other people is illogical, simply because each account is its own entity, just ran by 1 person. So 29 other accounts are getting rewards.
    4: To me, and this is just how I feel and not a dig at you @GroundedWisdom but I feel like you are salty about this situation because you feel like that guy is doing something wrong. And that line of thinking, again this is how I feel and not a dig at you, but to me it screams entitlement. You are calling fouls because said player exhibits skill, and you may lose to a single person.
    5: the better way to look at this is, how can we as an alliance set paths better so we can down nodes in a quick fashion. How can we as an alliance better ourselves to raise our skill level.

    In closing piloting is not happening unless said person bought accounts. And it’s not unfair to other players, because he is not doing anything wrong.

    That's not even the issue I'm presenting, and I explained my view on Piloting. I didn't say it was exactly the same.
    My point, which continues to be bypassed, is that it is not fair to run multiple Accounts in Seasons for Season Rewards. Not to the extreme I'm talking about.

    The thing is, that’s a biased view. You are saying this because it’s being used against you.
    As I previously said, if there were a limit, say one Alt per Ally in modes like War, that would be less detrimental than having 5+ in one BG. It's not fair, nor is it logical. It's taking advantage of a system that is really intended for teams of people.

    Why limit something that someone does? Isn’t that in itself unfair? Let’s view it this way, anyone who has a W in their name can’t do uncollected EQ 100%. They can’t be allowed to fully explore. Is that fair? Governing how people play this game is not something you nor Kabam should be allowed to do.
    Entitlement, hardly. We can accept our Wins and Losses. What's not right is one person monopolizing spots on the board with many Accounts. It has nothing to do with our skill or organization. We can accept our own limitations. What creates a problem is when people are using the excuse that multiple Accounts are allowed, and milking the Rewards out of a game mode that's not meant for individual people. Otherwise, it would have been called Account Wars.

    Again that is your view brought upon because of your current situation. They are not milking rewards. He has an ALLIANCE made up of SEPERATE accounts. Ergo he is still in the spirit of the game.
    Let's take an extreme hypothetical. One person opens 50 Accounts and creates 5 Allies. That person runs Wars and takes up 5 spots in the Seasons Leaderboard. Is that acceptable because they're allowed multiple Accounts? No. It's not acceptable.

    Your views shouldn’t supersede the rules of the game. He isn’t taking up 5 leaderboard spots because he earned those.
    Hiding behind the guise of the rules is not an automatic excuse for something that is unfair. Rules are revisited. Which is why I'm here, to bring to light an issue.

    That’s the thing, there is no issue. He chooses to play the game his way, you thinking there needs to be limitations on how someone can play is absurd.
    The fact that people are arguing adamantly that there is nothing wrong with it boggles my mind. Regardless, it is not fair, and no matter how you justify it, it's taking more than one's share. It's not fair to the people playing within their own limits. Not at all.

    It’s simply because we as a community don’t see an issue with it. The thing is, when people are faced with with situations like this they cry foul because they are not benifitng from it. You are under the illusion that because you view it as wrong it has to be. But until Kabam come down and says this violates somethig, it doesn’t. And I am sure Kabam won’t, simply because they would then be dictating how people play their time.

    Why limit what people do? That's why there are rules. To maintain order and fairness. Otherwise, people can do whatever they want and have no regard for anyone else. That's not a system that is in the spirit of fairness.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,193 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    The fact that people are arguing adamantly that there is nothing wrong with it boggles my mind.

    The fact that you keep claiming there's something wrong without even presenting an argument is boggling everyone else's mind. You just keep saying it is wrong, because it is obviously wrong.
    Let's take an extreme hypothetical. One person opens 50 Accounts and creates 5 Allies. That person runs Wars and takes up 5 spots in the Seasons Leaderboard. Is that acceptable because they're allowed multiple Accounts? No. It's not acceptable.

    That's not unacceptable. That's impossible. No alliance with only ten accounts in it can place anywhere near the top spot in the season leaderboard. Not even if every single account was a computer controlled bot that played perfectly and used mods to hack their way to victory. It is mathematically impossible. Just to take *one* spot a person would have to legally play thirty accounts. They'd need to play sixty to take two. I don't see how it would be possible for a single person to take up multiple spots on the leaderboard, but if they did so they would need to spend so much money to outfit all 150 accounts it would take to do that, that they would probably be single handedly funding the development of Act 7. Such a person doesn't need to multibox a hundred fifty accounts, they would just buy Kabam and permanently etch their name onto the leaderboard.

    First of all, I presented reasons. You're just ignoring them.
    Secondly, my example mentioned nothing about top spots. It mentioned taking up spots. Spots that are intended for groups of Players. Not one.

    I should amend that. Saying you're ignoring my points is more confrontational than I wanted to come across. I feel that you're not acknowledging them.
  • Liss_Bliss_Liss_Bliss_ Posts: 1,779 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    The fact that people are arguing adamantly that there is nothing wrong with it boggles my mind.

    The fact that you keep claiming there's something wrong without even presenting an argument is boggling everyone else's mind. You just keep saying it is wrong, because it is obviously wrong.
    Let's take an extreme hypothetical. One person opens 50 Accounts and creates 5 Allies. That person runs Wars and takes up 5 spots in the Seasons Leaderboard. Is that acceptable because they're allowed multiple Accounts? No. It's not acceptable.

    That's not unacceptable. That's impossible. No alliance with only ten accounts in it can place anywhere near the top spot in the season leaderboard. Not even if every single account was a computer controlled bot that played perfectly and used mods to hack their way to victory. It is mathematically impossible. Just to take *one* spot a person would have to legally play thirty accounts. They'd need to play sixty to take two. I don't see how it would be possible for a single person to take up multiple spots on the leaderboard, but if they did so they would need to spend so much money to outfit all 150 accounts it would take to do that, that they would probably be single handedly funding the development of Act 7. Such a person doesn't need to multibox a hundred fifty accounts, they would just buy Kabam and permanently etch their name onto the leaderboard.

    First of all, I presented reasons. You're just ignoring them.
    Secondly, my example mentioned nothing about top spots. It mentioned taking up spots. Spots that are intended for groups of Players. Not one.

    Your views are biased, and so are your reasons. We need solid reasons. And saying “taking rewards away from 29 other people/accounts means nothing. Why? Because it doesn’t matter where those accounts are at, 30 different alliances or the same, 29 other ACCOUNTS are not getting tier rewards because of his regardless.
  • Liss_Bliss_Liss_Bliss_ Posts: 1,779 ★★★★★
    Without getting into details, we're in a War at the moment. The majority of the Ally is one person. How do I know? Let's just say they're not creative in their IGNs. All derivatives and/or same names. How it's a problem is it's the same person, same skill level, and they're almost halfway done the Map before we've even started taking Nodes down. Now, I don't know for sure, but I suspect they look into cases such as this. It may fall under Piloting. That's not really what I wanted to debate. Should there be preventative measures or regulations to prevent these Wars? It's not at all fair for people to encounter. I'm not even sure what kind of measures you could put into place. Thoughts?

    I wasn’t going to post, but this has dragged on and on to the point that people are repeating themselves.

    Short answer: No. simple.

    Long answer:
    1: Let us take a hard look at piloting from this games standards. Piloting involves logging into an account that is not yours, and fighting in the most competitive game mode there is AW. Let’s repeat that and bold and italicize key words. >Piloting involves logging into an account that is not yours< here is where contention is held. If these are legitimately said players accounts and created by him, not purchased, then this is not, by definition piloting.
    2: Limiting the amount of account one person can use in one alliance is too big brother to me. Basically you are telling said player how to play the game. Who’s to say this guy doesn’t have social awkwardness that prevents him from taking to people. I knew a deaf guy in WoW that multi boxed 5v5 arena teams. He would also use said 5v5 team to clear non heroic dungeons. Would you tell him, he is doing something wrong?
    3: Your claim of taking rewards from 29 other people is illogical, simply because each account is its own entity, just ran by 1 person. So 29 other accounts are getting rewards.
    4: To me, and this is just how I feel and not a dig at you @GroundedWisdom but I feel like you are salty about this situation because you feel like that guy is doing something wrong. And that line of thinking, again this is how I feel and not a dig at you, but to me it screams entitlement. You are calling fouls because said player exhibits skill, and you may lose to a single person.
    5: the better way to look at this is, how can we as an alliance set paths better so we can down nodes in a quick fashion. How can we as an alliance better ourselves to raise our skill level.

    In closing piloting is not happening unless said person bought accounts. And it’s not unfair to other players, because he is not doing anything wrong.

    That's not even the issue I'm presenting, and I explained my view on Piloting. I didn't say it was exactly the same.
    My point, which continues to be bypassed, is that it is not fair to run multiple Accounts in Seasons for Season Rewards. Not to the extreme I'm talking about.

    The thing is, that’s a biased view. You are saying this because it’s being used against you.
    As I previously said, if there were a limit, say one Alt per Ally in modes like War, that would be less detrimental than having 5+ in one BG. It's not fair, nor is it logical. It's taking advantage of a system that is really intended for teams of people.

    Why limit something that someone does? Isn’t that in itself unfair? Let’s view it this way, anyone who has a W in their name can’t do uncollected EQ 100%. They can’t be allowed to fully explore. Is that fair? Governing how people play this game is not something you nor Kabam should be allowed to do.
    Entitlement, hardly. We can accept our Wins and Losses. What's not right is one person monopolizing spots on the board with many Accounts. It has nothing to do with our skill or organization. We can accept our own limitations. What creates a problem is when people are using the excuse that multiple Accounts are allowed, and milking the Rewards out of a game mode that's not meant for individual people. Otherwise, it would have been called Account Wars.

    Again that is your view brought upon because of your current situation. They are not milking rewards. He has an ALLIANCE made up of SEPERATE accounts. Ergo he is still in the spirit of the game.
    Let's take an extreme hypothetical. One person opens 50 Accounts and creates 5 Allies. That person runs Wars and takes up 5 spots in the Seasons Leaderboard. Is that acceptable because they're allowed multiple Accounts? No. It's not acceptable.

    Your views shouldn’t supersede the rules of the game. He isn’t taking up 5 leaderboard spots because he earned those.
    Hiding behind the guise of the rules is not an automatic excuse for something that is unfair. Rules are revisited. Which is why I'm here, to bring to light an issue.

    That’s the thing, there is no issue. He chooses to play the game his way, you thinking there needs to be limitations on how someone can play is absurd.
    The fact that people are arguing adamantly that there is nothing wrong with it boggles my mind. Regardless, it is not fair, and no matter how you justify it, it's taking more than one's share. It's not fair to the people playing within their own limits. Not at all.

    It’s simply because we as a community don’t see an issue with it. The thing is, when people are faced with with situations like this they cry foul because they are not benifitng from it. You are under the illusion that because you view it as wrong it has to be. But until Kabam come down and says this violates somethig, it doesn’t. And I am sure Kabam won’t, simply because they would then be dictating how people play their time.

    Why limit what people do? That's why there are rules. To maintain order and fairness. Otherwise, people can do whatever they want and have no regard for anyone else. That's not a system that is in the spirit of fairness.

    So says you.... that’s what you are failing to see, that WE see. You are saying it’s unfsit based on YOUR views, YOUR beliefs, YOUR ideals, YOUR situation. However we don’t see how this violates anything. It’s doesn’t violate any fairness. What it does do ia violate someone, by telling them they can’t do this because you don’t agree with it.
  • Liss_Bliss_Liss_Bliss_ Posts: 1,779 ★★★★★
    Let’s look at it fromna bigger standpoint.

    Brackets. I am G1 that means in my bracket there are 1,499 OTHER alliances. That means 44,970 other accounts. If I ran all 30 slots in my alliance I am not hindering anyone from getting rewards. As we are all in the same bracket. Now you can argue that I am preventing G2 rank 1 and maybe even G2 rank 2 alliances from moving up a tier. And I’d argue, no I’m not the alliances ranked 1,500-1,490 are preventing them from moving up. Now from peeping your ingame accckjnt we are in the same alliance. If you are not ANYWHERE near r1-10 this doesn’t create an issue as we all get the same rewards. Including the 1 guy running more than 2 accounts in his alliance.

    So how does this effect 44,970 people yet only you and your alliance seem to take an issue with it?
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,193 ★★★★★
    Without getting into details, we're in a War at the moment. The majority of the Ally is one person. How do I know? Let's just say they're not creative in their IGNs. All derivatives and/or same names. How it's a problem is it's the same person, same skill level, and they're almost halfway done the Map before we've even started taking Nodes down. Now, I don't know for sure, but I suspect they look into cases such as this. It may fall under Piloting. That's not really what I wanted to debate. Should there be preventative measures or regulations to prevent these Wars? It's not at all fair for people to encounter. I'm not even sure what kind of measures you could put into place. Thoughts?

    I wasn’t going to post, but this has dragged on and on to the point that people are repeating themselves.

    Short answer: No. simple.

    Long answer:
    1: Let us take a hard look at piloting from this games standards. Piloting involves logging into an account that is not yours, and fighting in the most competitive game mode there is AW. Let’s repeat that and bold and italicize key words. >Piloting involves logging into an account that is not yours< here is where contention is held. If these are legitimately said players accounts and created by him, not purchased, then this is not, by definition piloting.
    2: Limiting the amount of account one person can use in one alliance is too big brother to me. Basically you are telling said player how to play the game. Who’s to say this guy doesn’t have social awkwardness that prevents him from taking to people. I knew a deaf guy in WoW that multi boxed 5v5 arena teams. He would also use said 5v5 team to clear non heroic dungeons. Would you tell him, he is doing something wrong?
    3: Your claim of taking rewards from 29 other people is illogical, simply because each account is its own entity, just ran by 1 person. So 29 other accounts are getting rewards.
    4: To me, and this is just how I feel and not a dig at you @GroundedWisdom but I feel like you are salty about this situation because you feel like that guy is doing something wrong. And that line of thinking, again this is how I feel and not a dig at you, but to me it screams entitlement. You are calling fouls because said player exhibits skill, and you may lose to a single person.
    5: the better way to look at this is, how can we as an alliance set paths better so we can down nodes in a quick fashion. How can we as an alliance better ourselves to raise our skill level.

    In closing piloting is not happening unless said person bought accounts. And it’s not unfair to other players, because he is not doing anything wrong.

    That's not even the issue I'm presenting, and I explained my view on Piloting. I didn't say it was exactly the same.
    My point, which continues to be bypassed, is that it is not fair to run multiple Accounts in Seasons for Season Rewards. Not to the extreme I'm talking about.

    The thing is, that’s a biased view. You are saying this because it’s being used against you.
    As I previously said, if there were a limit, say one Alt per Ally in modes like War, that would be less detrimental than having 5+ in one BG. It's not fair, nor is it logical. It's taking advantage of a system that is really intended for teams of people.

    Why limit something that someone does? Isn’t that in itself unfair? Let’s view it this way, anyone who has a W in their name can’t do uncollected EQ 100%. They can’t be allowed to fully explore. Is that fair? Governing how people play this game is not something you nor Kabam should be allowed to do.
    Entitlement, hardly. We can accept our Wins and Losses. What's not right is one person monopolizing spots on the board with many Accounts. It has nothing to do with our skill or organization. We can accept our own limitations. What creates a problem is when people are using the excuse that multiple Accounts are allowed, and milking the Rewards out of a game mode that's not meant for individual people. Otherwise, it would have been called Account Wars.

    Again that is your view brought upon because of your current situation. They are not milking rewards. He has an ALLIANCE made up of SEPERATE accounts. Ergo he is still in the spirit of the game.
    Let's take an extreme hypothetical. One person opens 50 Accounts and creates 5 Allies. That person runs Wars and takes up 5 spots in the Seasons Leaderboard. Is that acceptable because they're allowed multiple Accounts? No. It's not acceptable.

    Your views shouldn’t supersede the rules of the game. He isn’t taking up 5 leaderboard spots because he earned those.
    Hiding behind the guise of the rules is not an automatic excuse for something that is unfair. Rules are revisited. Which is why I'm here, to bring to light an issue.

    That’s the thing, there is no issue. He chooses to play the game his way, you thinking there needs to be limitations on how someone can play is absurd.
    The fact that people are arguing adamantly that there is nothing wrong with it boggles my mind. Regardless, it is not fair, and no matter how you justify it, it's taking more than one's share. It's not fair to the people playing within their own limits. Not at all.

    It’s simply because we as a community don’t see an issue with it. The thing is, when people are faced with with situations like this they cry foul because they are not benifitng from it. You are under the illusion that because you view it as wrong it has to be. But until Kabam come down and says this violates somethig, it doesn’t. And I am sure Kabam won’t, simply because they would then be dictating how people play their time.

    Why limit what people do? That's why there are rules. To maintain order and fairness. Otherwise, people can do whatever they want and have no regard for anyone else. That's not a system that is in the spirit of fairness.

    So says you.... that’s what you are failing to see, that WE see. You are saying it’s unfsit based on YOUR views, YOUR beliefs, YOUR ideals, YOUR situation. However we don’t see how this violates anything. It’s doesn’t violate any fairness. What it does do ia violate someone, by telling them they can’t do this because you don’t agree with it.

    When you're talking about why you limit what people do, rules are necessary.
  • New_Noob168New_Noob168 Posts: 1,562 ★★★★
    Well. When Kabam didn't allow us to change names, some top alliances were using |||||||| because they requested it and were granted from Kabam...Then Kabam decided this wasn't good and changed their name to something else for them. Well, now that we have the name change token, people are doing the same. You'd think kabam would be smart enough to prevent this....they basically re-enabled everyone again..
  • thegrimmlingthegrimmling Posts: 167
    Oh wow.... This game has the "barcodes" in it.

    I saw them in Ingress years ago.

  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,193 ★★★★★
    Let’s look at it fromna bigger standpoint.

    Brackets. I am G1 that means in my bracket there are 1,499 OTHER alliances. That means 44,970 other accounts. If I ran all 30 slots in my alliance I am not hindering anyone from getting rewards. As we are all in the same bracket. Now you can argue that I am preventing G2 rank 1 and maybe even G2 rank 2 alliances from moving up a tier. And I’d argue, no I’m not the alliances ranked 1,500-1,490 are preventing them from moving up. Now from peeping your ingame accckjnt we are in the same alliance. If you are not ANYWHERE near r1-10 this doesn’t create an issue as we all get the same rewards. Including the 1 guy running more than 2 accounts in his alliance.

    So how does this effect 44,970 people yet only you and your alliance seem to take an issue with it?

    How it affects people is every spot is a representation of 30 Members. 30 people who are playing to the best of their abilities. One person running 30 Accounts is taking up the spot that should hold 30 people. One person should not be running an entire Ally in a competition that Ranks Allies based on how they perform as individuals, together as a team. It's unfair because other people are working together, organizing, coordinating, responding as things come up as a team, communicating, helping each other, waiting on each other, working towards a common goal. One person orchestrating an entire Ally doesn't deserve the same Rewards. They're not operating the same. You just literally go from Account to Account when the Energy fills. There's no variation in skill. If you can take down the Nodes, you just finish the Map and collect the Rewards for 30 people. Not only from the Wins, but from the Season as well. One person takes a spot that is meant for 30 people who are playing together as a....wait for it....TEAM. It's a team competition. What's the sense in having Allies at all? Just create a bunch of Alts and boost yourself through team challenges. Nevermind the other people who are working as a team. As long as it's allowed on paper, you can do what you want.
    Is any of this making sense?
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,193 ★★★★★
    Oh wow.... This game has the "barcodes" in it.

    I saw them in Ingress years ago.

    Yeah that was an issue, but not anymore. Funny how things come back. Lol.
  • JaffacakedJaffacaked Posts: 1,415 ★★★★
    edited November 2018
    Without getting into details, we're in a War at the moment. The majority of the Ally is one person. How do I know? Let's just say they're not creative in their IGNs. All derivatives and/or same names. How it's a problem is it's the same person, same skill level, and they're almost halfway done the Map before we've even started taking Nodes down. Now, I don't know for sure, but I suspect they look into cases such as this. It may fall under Piloting. That's not really what I wanted to debate. Should there be preventative measures or regulations to prevent these Wars? It's not at all fair for people to encounter. I'm not even sure what kind of measures you could put into place. Thoughts?

    I wasn’t going to post, but this has dragged on and on to the point that people are repeating themselves.

    Short answer: No. simple.

    Long answer:
    1: Let us take a hard look at piloting from this games standards. Piloting involves logging into an account that is not yours, and fighting in the most competitive game mode there is AW. Let’s repeat that and bold and italicize key words. >Piloting involves logging into an account that is not yours< here is where contention is held. If these are legitimately said players accounts and created by him, not purchased, then this is not, by definition piloting.
    2: Limiting the amount of account one person can use in one alliance is too big brother to me. Basically you are telling said player how to play the game. Who’s to say this guy doesn’t have social awkwardness that prevents him from taking to people. I knew a deaf guy in WoW that multi boxed 5v5 arena teams. He would also use said 5v5 team to clear non heroic dungeons. Would you tell him, he is doing something wrong?
    3: Your claim of taking rewards from 29 other people is illogical, simply because each account is its own entity, just ran by 1 person. So 29 other accounts are getting rewards.
    4: To me, and this is just how I feel and not a dig at you @GroundedWisdom but I feel like you are salty about this situation because you feel like that guy is doing something wrong. And that line of thinking, again this is how I feel and not a dig at you, but to me it screams entitlement. You are calling fouls because said player exhibits skill, and you may lose to a single person.
    5: the better way to look at this is, how can we as an alliance set paths better so we can down nodes in a quick fashion. How can we as an alliance better ourselves to raise our skill level.

    In closing piloting is not happening unless said person bought accounts. And it’s not unfair to other players, because he is not doing anything wrong.

    His ally only has enough members for 1 BG wars, this guy only has a handful of accounts, probably 5 or 6 at most. An playing at silver 3 level with those accounts if nothing for most people. He deserves tomplsy wars with them if he puts the time an effort in.
  • LeNoirFaineantLeNoirFaineant Posts: 8,638 ★★★★★
    If Kabam made a rule to stop it, you would be happy about it. That guy and the other 3 guys who are doing it would be screwed since they built those accounts under the rules and wouldn't be able to use them the way they want anymore. Everyone else who plays the game would be unaffected...

    If something gives an unfair advantage, that's more pressing than the feelings of the people taking said advantage.

    It's really hard to build that many teams. If this guy is the whole alliance he can't possibly grind enough to get the full advantage of being in an alliance. If he is getting an unfair advantage it's a very, very small advantage against a very few number of alliances. The police are dealing with robberies, domestic violence, murder... and you are standing there trying to direct them to the jaywalker.

    I don't consider it that minor. I don't think people would either, if it was someone taking a spot in Platinum or Master. We'd never hear the end of it. Even Jaywalking is illegal. It can cause accidents and death. Lol.

    That's where my analogy breaks down. Jaywalking is illegal...but this isn't. If it were happening in Platinum or Master it would be a problem because it would mean someone bought a lot of good accounts. It isn't possible for one person to build that many accounts to that level. And if someone could and they were his legitimate accounts I don't agree that we'd never hear the end of it. Honestly don't think anyone in Platinum or Master would care. There is enough going on that actually is against the rules.

    Oh I think people wouldn't let it go of it was that high up. Based on experience. The point is it doesn't matter what level it's at. It's no bueno.

    Based on your experience of people doing things in the high tiers that aren't against the rules? There is nothing to "let go."
  • LeNoirFaineantLeNoirFaineant Posts: 8,638 ★★★★★
    Verzz wrote: »
    Verzz wrote: »
    Verzz wrote: »
    It’s not unfair at all and is actually the definition of “fair” - the person that is playing the 10-30 accounts has to put the effort into all the accounts alone so he will get exactly what he puts into the game with those accounts.

    In war, if he is better than the multiplayer alliance’s average skill he will win providing he has the time and if he is worse he will lose.

    So seeing as this is fair and is not really going to affect anything even close to what real piloting is I don’t think anything will be done with this.

    That's not what makes it fair. People can put effort into anything. Doesn't make it right.
    Ok so I re-read your OP and I guess you are just complaining about the rules and what you think is fair. But about the questions you asked, even if I thought it wasn’t fair, they have repeatedly said that you can have multiple accounts if you are the sole player. And alliances also exist in this game. How could they possibly do anything unless they ban multiple accounts outright?

    They have commented on owning multiple Accounts. I have yet to see a comment in reference to Wars with multiple Accounts. Seasons have added a new layer of competition and now it's not just people playing Wars with Alts. It's a Ranking system as well.

    Are you saying they have never said that you can have multiple accounts since seasons started or that it is something they should look at? They have said you can have multiple accounts in this game and everything we are talking about (wars, ranking system) is part of the game isn’t it?

    What I'm saying is they've said multiple Accounts are allowed. I have yet to see any comment in regards to using multiple Accounts in Wars. Lots of people claiming they were dinged because of using multiple Accounts, but they're not likely to comment in those instances because they don't discuss actions taken.

    Mods have commented many times that you can have multiple accounts in the same alliance...but you think it's possible that they didn't mean to include War? You don't actually believe that's a thing @GroundedWisdom
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,193 ★★★★★
    If Kabam made a rule to stop it, you would be happy about it. That guy and the other 3 guys who are doing it would be screwed since they built those accounts under the rules and wouldn't be able to use them the way they want anymore. Everyone else who plays the game would be unaffected...

    If something gives an unfair advantage, that's more pressing than the feelings of the people taking said advantage.

    It's really hard to build that many teams. If this guy is the whole alliance he can't possibly grind enough to get the full advantage of being in an alliance. If he is getting an unfair advantage it's a very, very small advantage against a very few number of alliances. The police are dealing with robberies, domestic violence, murder... and you are standing there trying to direct them to the jaywalker.

    I don't consider it that minor. I don't think people would either, if it was someone taking a spot in Platinum or Master. We'd never hear the end of it. Even Jaywalking is illegal. It can cause accidents and death. Lol.

    That's where my analogy breaks down. Jaywalking is illegal...but this isn't. If it were happening in Platinum or Master it would be a problem because it would mean someone bought a lot of good accounts. It isn't possible for one person to build that many accounts to that level. And if someone could and they were his legitimate accounts I don't agree that we'd never hear the end of it. Honestly don't think anyone in Platinum or Master would care. There is enough going on that actually is against the rules.

    Oh I think people wouldn't let it go of it was that high up. Based on experience. The point is it doesn't matter what level it's at. It's no bueno.

    Based on your experience of people doing things in the high tiers that aren't against the rules? There is nothing to "let go."

    Based on the competitive nature of those Tiers. I didn't just fall off the Turnip Truck. Lol. I've been here. I've seen the reactions people have towards anything even remotely unfair at the Top. I've seen the lengths people go to maintain positions. Even you can't deny it would be a crusade.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,193 ★★★★★
    Verzz wrote: »
    Verzz wrote: »
    Verzz wrote: »
    It’s not unfair at all and is actually the definition of “fair” - the person that is playing the 10-30 accounts has to put the effort into all the accounts alone so he will get exactly what he puts into the game with those accounts.

    In war, if he is better than the multiplayer alliance’s average skill he will win providing he has the time and if he is worse he will lose.

    So seeing as this is fair and is not really going to affect anything even close to what real piloting is I don’t think anything will be done with this.

    That's not what makes it fair. People can put effort into anything. Doesn't make it right.
    Ok so I re-read your OP and I guess you are just complaining about the rules and what you think is fair. But about the questions you asked, even if I thought it wasn’t fair, they have repeatedly said that you can have multiple accounts if you are the sole player. And alliances also exist in this game. How could they possibly do anything unless they ban multiple accounts outright?

    They have commented on owning multiple Accounts. I have yet to see a comment in reference to Wars with multiple Accounts. Seasons have added a new layer of competition and now it's not just people playing Wars with Alts. It's a Ranking system as well.

    Are you saying they have never said that you can have multiple accounts since seasons started or that it is something they should look at? They have said you can have multiple accounts in this game and everything we are talking about (wars, ranking system) is part of the game isn’t it?

    What I'm saying is they've said multiple Accounts are allowed. I have yet to see any comment in regards to using multiple Accounts in Wars. Lots of people claiming they were dinged because of using multiple Accounts, but they're not likely to comment in those instances because they don't discuss actions taken.

    Mods have commented many times that you can have multiple accounts in the same alliance...but you think it's possible that they didn't mean to include War? You don't actually believe that's a thing @GroundedWisdom

    I believe they haven't addressed it specifically. Yes.
  • LeNoirFaineantLeNoirFaineant Posts: 8,638 ★★★★★
    Verzz wrote: »
    Verzz wrote: »
    Verzz wrote: »
    It’s not unfair at all and is actually the definition of “fair” - the person that is playing the 10-30 accounts has to put the effort into all the accounts alone so he will get exactly what he puts into the game with those accounts.

    In war, if he is better than the multiplayer alliance’s average skill he will win providing he has the time and if he is worse he will lose.

    So seeing as this is fair and is not really going to affect anything even close to what real piloting is I don’t think anything will be done with this.

    That's not what makes it fair. People can put effort into anything. Doesn't make it right.
    Ok so I re-read your OP and I guess you are just complaining about the rules and what you think is fair. But about the questions you asked, even if I thought it wasn’t fair, they have repeatedly said that you can have multiple accounts if you are the sole player. And alliances also exist in this game. How could they possibly do anything unless they ban multiple accounts outright?

    They have commented on owning multiple Accounts. I have yet to see a comment in reference to Wars with multiple Accounts. Seasons have added a new layer of competition and now it's not just people playing Wars with Alts. It's a Ranking system as well.

    Are you saying they have never said that you can have multiple accounts since seasons started or that it is something they should look at? They have said you can have multiple accounts in this game and everything we are talking about (wars, ranking system) is part of the game isn’t it?

    What I'm saying is they've said multiple Accounts are allowed. I have yet to see any comment in regards to using multiple Accounts in Wars. Lots of people claiming they were dinged because of using multiple Accounts, but they're not likely to comment in those instances because they don't discuss actions taken.

    Mods have commented many times that you can have multiple accounts in the same alliance...but you think it's possible that they didn't mean to include War? You don't actually believe that's a thing @GroundedWisdom

    I believe they haven't addressed it specifically. Yes.

    By saying that you can have multiple accounts in an alliance they have addressed it specifically. You think maybe they meant as long as only one of the accounts is used in War and you fight the war short handed? Would that apply to AQ also? Yes, you can have as many accounts as you want in one alliance as long as you only use one and the others are inactive? Stop it. They have said multiple accounts in the same alliance is fine which includes war. It has been addressed and you are really reaching here. Please explain where I'm wrong if you can.
  • PiviotPiviot Posts: 658 ★★★
    edited November 2018
    If this has been brought up before , sorry
    It’s not a prob, he has that much free time to play thirty accounts all the power to him

    IF You could ship everything you earned to one account, then it would be a prob, but seeing as you can’t and will never be able to I don’t see a problem
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,193 ★★★★★
    Piviot wrote: »
    If this has been brought up before , sorry
    It’s not a prob, he has that much free time to play thirty accounts all the power to him

    IF You could ship everything you earned to one account, then it would be a prob, but seeing as you can’t and will never be able to I don’t see a problem

    The problem is it's not 30 people earning Rewards. It's one. It bypasses the whole point of Alliance Wars. One person is using Alts to boost their own Account.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,193 ★★★★★
    Verzz wrote: »
    Verzz wrote: »
    Verzz wrote: »
    It’s not unfair at all and is actually the definition of “fair” - the person that is playing the 10-30 accounts has to put the effort into all the accounts alone so he will get exactly what he puts into the game with those accounts.

    In war, if he is better than the multiplayer alliance’s average skill he will win providing he has the time and if he is worse he will lose.

    So seeing as this is fair and is not really going to affect anything even close to what real piloting is I don’t think anything will be done with this.

    That's not what makes it fair. People can put effort into anything. Doesn't make it right.
    Ok so I re-read your OP and I guess you are just complaining about the rules and what you think is fair. But about the questions you asked, even if I thought it wasn’t fair, they have repeatedly said that you can have multiple accounts if you are the sole player. And alliances also exist in this game. How could they possibly do anything unless they ban multiple accounts outright?

    They have commented on owning multiple Accounts. I have yet to see a comment in reference to Wars with multiple Accounts. Seasons have added a new layer of competition and now it's not just people playing Wars with Alts. It's a Ranking system as well.

    Are you saying they have never said that you can have multiple accounts since seasons started or that it is something they should look at? They have said you can have multiple accounts in this game and everything we are talking about (wars, ranking system) is part of the game isn’t it?

    What I'm saying is they've said multiple Accounts are allowed. I have yet to see any comment in regards to using multiple Accounts in Wars. Lots of people claiming they were dinged because of using multiple Accounts, but they're not likely to comment in those instances because they don't discuss actions taken.

    Mods have commented many times that you can have multiple accounts in the same alliance...but you think it's possible that they didn't mean to include War? You don't actually believe that's a thing @GroundedWisdom

    I believe they haven't addressed it specifically. Yes.

    By saying that you can have multiple accounts in an alliance they have addressed it specifically. You think maybe they meant as long as only one of the accounts is used in War and you fight the war short handed? Would that apply to AQ also? Yes, you can have as many accounts as you want in one alliance as long as you only use one and the others are inactive? Stop it. They have said multiple accounts in the same alliance is fine which includes war. It has been addressed and you are really reaching here. Please explain where I'm wrong if you can.

    They've commented when asked if having multiple Accounts is allowed. They have never commented on using many Alts in War. People have reported a number of cases being dinged with that common theme. No sharing, just people with Alts. (Allegedly). Quite obviously, they're not going to comment in those cases because they don't discuss actions taken. Quite possibly also because that may elude to their detection processes. I have yet to see a direct comment about running multiple Accounts in War. Just the statement that people are allowed to have multiple Accounts.
  • LeNoirFaineantLeNoirFaineant Posts: 8,638 ★★★★★
    Um... you just restated your point. I argued correctly that mods have commented that multiple accounts in the same alliance are OK. In what way would that not include alliance war?
  • CFreeCFree Posts: 491 ★★
    No one is running an entire alliance alone.
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