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Here's a Brain teaser for you (Mods feel free to comment if you can confirm the answer)

EvangelionlovrEvangelionlovr Posts: 481 ★★★
in General Discussion
If you are using Ghost with the Wasp Synergy against a Spidergwen and you use a special attack immediately upon phasing and the enemy spidergwen isn't blocking, will she evade it or will you hit her?

Ghosts abilities state: "Critical hits CANNOT be evaded", in addition, Ghosts abilities state that if you use a special immediately after phasing that all the hits of that special will be critical hits, and the wasp synergy makes all Ghosts special attacks activated upon phasing to be unblockable.

Now Spidergwen's abilities state that she has a 500% chance to evade unblockable specials if she isn't blocking, so my question is which of these two abilities will win out?

Comments

  • EvangelionlovrEvangelionlovr Posts: 481 ★★★
    Eviscerator said:

    The game crashes while trying to figure it out. Or both champs take 1000000 direct damage

    I'm legit wondering if the game will crash.

    LOL champs can evade ghost so I'm thinking spidergwen wins out due to her over 100% chance to evade. (Ghosts ability doesn't state a % which means it should default to 100%)
  • Dexman1349Dexman1349 Posts: 3,060 ★★★★★
    edited April 2019
    It's similar to the AA vs Magneto conundrum.

    AA is metal. Magneto reduces ability accuracy against metal opponents. AA's ability accuracy cannot be reduced.

    In that case, AA won.

    I've seen it elsewhere in the forums recently where one of the Kabam mods said that the goal is typical solution is that the "Cannot" wins.
  • LordBeaverbrokeLordBeaverbroke Posts: 285 ★★
    Evangelionlovr said:

    Eviscerator said:

    The game crashes while trying to figure it out. Or both champs take 1000000 direct damage

    I'm legit wondering if the game will crash.

    LOL champs can evade ghost so I'm thinking spidergwen wins out due to her over 100% chance to evade. (Ghosts ability doesn't state a % which means it should default to 100%)
    🤔Hm... time to test it out, I guess
  • EvangelionlovrEvangelionlovr Posts: 481 ★★★
    LordBeaverbroke said:

    Evangelionlovr said:

    Eviscerator said:

    The game crashes while trying to figure it out. Or both champs take 1000000 direct damage

    I'm legit wondering if the game will crash.

    LOL champs can evade ghost so I'm thinking spidergwen wins out due to her over 100% chance to evade. (Ghosts ability doesn't state a % which means it should default to 100%)
    🤔Hm... time to test it out, I guess
    Problem is I think the AI is too stupid to test it out proper, they usually block when you go to fire specials using Ghost/Wasp synergy. I guess you can try and fire them like @PandamanPete does when he's in variant and doesn't have access to Wasp Syn.
  • LordBeaverbrokeLordBeaverbroke Posts: 285 ★★
    Evangelionlovr said:

    LordBeaverbroke said:

    Evangelionlovr said:

    Eviscerator said:

    The game crashes while trying to figure it out. Or both champs take 1000000 direct damage

    I'm legit wondering if the game will crash.

    LOL champs can evade ghost so I'm thinking spidergwen wins out due to her over 100% chance to evade. (Ghosts ability doesn't state a % which means it should default to 100%)
    🤔Hm... time to test it out, I guess
    Problem is I think the AI is too stupid to test it out proper, they usually block when you go to fire specials using Ghost/Wasp synergy. I guess you can try and fire them like @PandamanPete does when he's in variant and doesn't have access to Wasp Syn.
    I was thinking of baiting a heavy, then firing, but I suppose that works too
  • EvangelionlovrEvangelionlovr Posts: 481 ★★★
    Ah smart man, I can do that in variant too since I'm nowhere near Pete's skill level yet.
  • EvangelionlovrEvangelionlovr Posts: 481 ★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Evangelionlovr said:

    If you are using Ghost with the Wasp Synergy against a Spidergwen and you use a special attack immediately upon phasing and the enemy spidergwen isn't blocking, will she evade it or will you hit her?

    Ghosts abilities state: "Critical hits CANNOT be evaded", in addition, Ghosts abilities state that if you use a special immediately after phasing that all the hits of that special will be critical hits, and the wasp synergy makes all Ghosts special attacks activated upon phasing to be unblockable.

    Now Spidergwen's abilities state that she has a 500% chance to evade unblockable specials if she isn't blocking, so my question is which of these two abilities will win out?

    First, Spidergwen's description doesn't say that. It actually says that she has "+550% Evade Ability Accuracy" against unblockable special attacks. Not 550%. but +550%. That means her evade chance is 6.5x higher (+5.5x = 6.5x) than normal against those kinds of attacks.

    So what's her evade chance itself? According to the Spider Sense description, it is 7% chance to evade per Spider-Sense charge. So her chance to evade is between 7% and 35% (max 5 charges). That means her chance to evade unblockable specials is between 45.5% and 227.5% (1 to 5 charges). Basically, at three charges or higher it is 100%.

    Now, which one "wins?" Without testing, my guess is that Ghost wins and her unblockable crits land on Spidergwen. It comes down to this. The whole point of any ability saying that an attack "cannot be evaded" is that if an evade would be triggered, this evade does nothing. So in this situation, Spidergwen's evade has a 100% or higher chance of triggering, but the evade doesn't actually do anything. The fact that her triggering chance can be higher than 100% is meaningless: higher than 100% simply means 100% unless that chance is being debuffed. If you have a 150% of doing something and something else applies a -45% percentage chance to you, your net chance is still 105% which is still higher than 100% which means you're still stuck at 100% - it is certain the trigger goes off.

    But when something says their attacks "cannot be evaded" I don't think that means the ability applies a -100% evade ability accuracy debuff or something. I think it simply suppresses the effects of evade when an evade would have happened. So the ability accuracy of the evade is irrelevant.

    To put it another way, neither side "wins" in the sense of only one side working. Spidergwen's abilities "work" in the sense that she "triggers an evade." And then Ghost's abilities also work, and simply ignore that evade and strike the target.
    Great answer! I didn't actually read SG's abilities, I just was discussing it with a friend and thought I would ask here to see if anyone else had any insight on this. I agree with your thought process though, that ghost should reduce the evade chance to 0 regardless of what SG "boosts" that evade chance to.
  • Mingo0312Mingo0312 Posts: 218 ★
    From my ghost play none of her Crit hits can be evaded full stop doesn’t matter if they have 100% chance to evade, as long as it’s a Crit they will not evade
  • SummonerNRSummonerNR Posts: 10,587 Guardian
    edited April 2019
    Sounds like the thinking is CANNOT takes precedence over CHANCE OF, even if that Chance is 100%, (which apparently is not even Gwen's case, but for the sake of argument assume 100% chance). Now if the opponent wording had said something like GUARANTEED EVADE instead of 100% CHANCE, then that might raise a more problematic situation.

    Although I think Kabam might have eluded to Attacker vs Defender in some post, regarding those type of situations as well.
  • Kabam ZibiitKabam Zibiit Posts: 7,033
    DNA3000 said:

    Evangelionlovr said:

    If you are using Ghost with the Wasp Synergy against a Spidergwen and you use a special attack immediately upon phasing and the enemy spidergwen isn't blocking, will she evade it or will you hit her?

    Ghosts abilities state: "Critical hits CANNOT be evaded", in addition, Ghosts abilities state that if you use a special immediately after phasing that all the hits of that special will be critical hits, and the wasp synergy makes all Ghosts special attacks activated upon phasing to be unblockable.

    Now Spidergwen's abilities state that she has a 500% chance to evade unblockable specials if she isn't blocking, so my question is which of these two abilities will win out?

    First, Spidergwen's description doesn't say that. It actually says that she has "+550% Evade Ability Accuracy" against unblockable special attacks. Not 550%. but +550%. That means her evade chance is 6.5x higher (+5.5x = 6.5x) than normal against those kinds of attacks.

    So what's her evade chance itself? According to the Spider Sense description, it is 7% chance to evade per Spider-Sense charge. So her chance to evade is between 7% and 35% (max 5 charges). That means her chance to evade unblockable specials is between 45.5% and 227.5% (1 to 5 charges). Basically, at three charges or higher it is 100%.

    Now, which one "wins?" Without testing, my guess is that Ghost wins and her unblockable crits land on Spidergwen. It comes down to this. The whole point of any ability saying that an attack "cannot be evaded" is that if an evade would be triggered, this evade does nothing. So in this situation, Spidergwen's evade has a 100% or higher chance of triggering, but the evade doesn't actually do anything. The fact that her triggering chance can be higher than 100% is meaningless: higher than 100% simply means 100% unless that chance is being debuffed. If you have a 150% of doing something and something else applies a -45% percentage chance to you, your net chance is still 105% which is still higher than 100% which means you're still stuck at 100% - it is certain the trigger goes off.

    But when something says their attacks "cannot be evaded" I don't think that means the ability applies a -100% evade ability accuracy debuff or something. I think it simply suppresses the effects of evade when an evade would have happened. So the ability accuracy of the evade is irrelevant.

    To put it another way, neither side "wins" in the sense of only one side working. Spidergwen's abilities "work" in the sense that she "triggers an evade." And then Ghost's abilities also work, and simply ignore that evade and strike the target.
    Oh forgot to refresh before I hit send... nice post 👍
  • PandamanPetePandamanPete Posts: 107 ★
    Yep, Ghost wins in this case
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,649 Guardian
    Kabam Zibiit said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Evangelionlovr said:

    If you are using Ghost with the Wasp Synergy against a Spidergwen and you use a special attack immediately upon phasing and the enemy spidergwen isn't blocking, will she evade it or will you hit her?

    Ghosts abilities state: "Critical hits CANNOT be evaded", in addition, Ghosts abilities state that if you use a special immediately after phasing that all the hits of that special will be critical hits, and the wasp synergy makes all Ghosts special attacks activated upon phasing to be unblockable.

    Now Spidergwen's abilities state that she has a 500% chance to evade unblockable specials if she isn't blocking, so my question is which of these two abilities will win out?

    First, Spidergwen's description doesn't say that. It actually says that she has "+550% Evade Ability Accuracy" against unblockable special attacks. Not 550%. but +550%. That means her evade chance is 6.5x higher (+5.5x = 6.5x) than normal against those kinds of attacks.

    So what's her evade chance itself? According to the Spider Sense description, it is 7% chance to evade per Spider-Sense charge. So her chance to evade is between 7% and 35% (max 5 charges). That means her chance to evade unblockable specials is between 45.5% and 227.5% (1 to 5 charges). Basically, at three charges or higher it is 100%.

    Now, which one "wins?" Without testing, my guess is that Ghost wins and her unblockable crits land on Spidergwen. It comes down to this. The whole point of any ability saying that an attack "cannot be evaded" is that if an evade would be triggered, this evade does nothing. So in this situation, Spidergwen's evade has a 100% or higher chance of triggering, but the evade doesn't actually do anything. The fact that her triggering chance can be higher than 100% is meaningless: higher than 100% simply means 100% unless that chance is being debuffed. If you have a 150% of doing something and something else applies a -45% percentage chance to you, your net chance is still 105% which is still higher than 100% which means you're still stuck at 100% - it is certain the trigger goes off.

    But when something says their attacks "cannot be evaded" I don't think that means the ability applies a -100% evade ability accuracy debuff or something. I think it simply suppresses the effects of evade when an evade would have happened. So the ability accuracy of the evade is irrelevant.

    To put it another way, neither side "wins" in the sense of only one side working. Spidergwen's abilities "work" in the sense that she "triggers an evade." And then Ghost's abilities also work, and simply ignore that evade and strike the target.
    Oh forgot to refresh before I hit send... nice post 👍
    Please clarify one thing. You said the evade chance becomes 550% of normal, but the champion description says "+550%". To me that means 650%, not 550% of base. Is the correct evade chance 550% of base, or +550% = 650% chance of base against unblockable special attacks?
  • EakomoEakomo Posts: 44 ★
    edited April 2019
    if Spider gwen's evade becomes more than 100% and ghost critical hits has a -100% evade chance, spider gwen will evade at that point due to that she still has an evade chance,
    and example of this scenario is doctor voodoo vs mephisto at the start of the fight voodoo still regens even though soul imprisonment is on him due that he has a 200% ability accuracy and soul imprisonment is a -100% ability accuracy effect.
    else Ghost should win if it's just to cancel all evade chances
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