Slumber not working in dungeons

The defender is not starting out stunned for 15 seconds. They just start out as normal only + 1,000% attack. Slumber states that they start stunned for 15 seconds and then get +1,000% attack.

Comments

  • AshPikaAshPika Posts: 86
    Is it against Juggernaut?
    If yes, then Juggernaut can't be stunned while he's unstoppable (which he is at the start of the fight)
  • LormifLormif Posts: 2,547 ★★★★

    The defender is not starting out stunned for 15 seconds. They just start out as normal only + 1,000% attack. Slumber states that they start stunned for 15 seconds and then get +1,000% attack.

    If the target is stun immune at the start of the fight due to the champ or the node slumber will not put him to sleep, but he will keep the attack bonus.

  • hephaestushephaestus Posts: 134
    Yes juggs. I guess that explains that then. Still kind of a dirty trick to play in something like dungeons imho.
  • Mirage_TurtleMirage_Turtle Posts: 1,070 ★★★

    Yes juggs. I guess that explains that then. Still kind of a dirty trick to play in something like dungeons imho.

    It's not a dirty trick. Countless nodes are tailored to the champ on the tile. Slumber is no different.

    You should also be cautious of Slumber when fighting Groot, Karnak, Kingpin, Rogue, Crossbones, Mordo, or several others due to their interactions with certain debuffs.

    Slumber is nearly always a risky proposition. You really have to think about champion interactions.
  • hephaestushephaestus Posts: 134
    I disagree. The node says something will happen that doesn't happen.

    It would be one thing if it says something will happen that emphasizes something with the champ. But this is saying one thing and then using fine print to actually accomplish the complete opposite.

    Especially dirty when it is 33% of the content and the champs you use to do it will be unavailable for the next week and rest of the event cycle.
  • Mirage_TurtleMirage_Turtle Posts: 1,070 ★★★

    I disagree. The node says something will happen that doesn't happen.

    It would be one thing if it says something will happen that emphasizes something with the champ. But this is saying one thing and then using fine print to actually accomplish the complete opposite.

    Especially dirty when it is 33% of the content and the champs you use to do it will be unavailable for the next week and rest of the event cycle.

    Think of it this way...

    If you're taking a path in Act 6 with nodes that automatically inflict incinerate on the attacker and you bring in Void (who is incinerate immune), what do you expect to happen?

    Do you expect the incinerate to work? After all...it says right in the description that the attacker WILL be inflicted with incinerate.

    Of course not. Champion interactions are important and should always be considered. The incinerate will do nothing to Void because he's naturally immune to incinerate effects. By the same token, Juggernaut is immune to the effects of stun while he's unstoppable. He starts every fight with an unstoppable buff, so he is inherently immune to stuns at the beginning of the fight.

    Believe me, you're not the only one to fall victim to Slumber. A quick search here in the Bugs section will confirm that. Just take it as a lesson learned and you'll know better for next time. Good luck!
  • hephaestushephaestus Posts: 134
    edited June 24

    I disagree. The node says something will happen that doesn't happen.

    It would be one thing if it says something will happen that emphasizes something with the champ. But this is saying one thing and then using fine print to actually accomplish the complete opposite.

    Especially dirty when it is 33% of the content and the champs you use to do it will be unavailable for the next week and rest of the event cycle.

    Think of it this way...

    If you're taking a path in Act 6 with nodes that automatically inflict incinerate on the attacker and you bring in Void (who is incinerate immune), what do you expect to happen?

    Do you expect the incinerate to work? After all...it says right in the description that the attacker WILL be inflicted with incinerate.

    Of course not. Champion interactions are important and should always be considered. The incinerate will do nothing to Void because he's naturally immune to incinerate effects. By the same token, Juggernaut is immune to the effects of stun while he's unstoppable. He starts every fight with an unstoppable buff, so he is inherently immune to stuns at the beginning of the fight.

    Believe me, you're not the only one to fall victim to Slumber. A quick search here in the Bugs section will confirm that. Just take it as a lesson learned and you'll know better for next time. Good luck!
    Your analogy is backwards. what it should state is them making a node that says champion will suffer from incinerate and then deliberately putting void on it. And I do think that would be dirty because what is explicitly stated will happen does not happen. It is the equivalent a promising something and then breaking the promise because your fingers were crossed behind your back.
  • LormifLormif Posts: 2,547 ★★★★

    I disagree. The node says something will happen that doesn't happen.

    It would be one thing if it says something will happen that emphasizes something with the champ. But this is saying one thing and then using fine print to actually accomplish the complete opposite.

    Especially dirty when it is 33% of the content and the champs you use to do it will be unavailable for the next week and rest of the event cycle.

    The node says something that will happen, that does not mean the champion will not counter that thing happening. The node says it will apply stun, it did and juggs was immune. you are supposed to know that and not pick slumber for that reason. it is like when people chose the node that gives energy when blocked, for a champ that fires multiple attack sp1, that basically gives them unlimited sp1. You had a choice and should know the champion abilities and how they work.

    I am pretty sure the minis are random from a small pool, it is not a dirty trick, it just happens. And no it is not breaking a promise.
  • hephaestushephaestus Posts: 134
    edited June 24
    If a node says X will happen, X should happen. Otherwise there is no point in the node other than playing a dirty trick on the user. If there are champs that break the promise, those champs should not be available on that node.

    If I sign a document agreeing to pay you $100, but it turns out I don't have $100, am I then free of that obligation and do you not expect to receive $100? Or is it your fault for not knowing I didn't have $100?

    Again, the analogy about unlimited SP1's is flawed. That is saying that something will happen, and then something happens a lot. Perhaps the extent to which it happens is unexpected to some, but it is not saying something will happen that then does not. I can not think of any other nodes in my 4+ years of playing this game that have specifically stated that something would happen and then the devs put a champ there that specifically prevented that thing from happening. Probably because it negates the need for the node in the first place.

    Even if I had thought ahead to know that Juggs was stun immune at the beginning of the fight, I would have thought he would be stunned BECAUSE THE NODE SAID HE WOULD BE. I mean, basically god of the game, those who are all-powerful and can make essentially anything happen that they like, took the time to make the node say what it said. Why would they bother if it didn't do what they went out of their way to do? Why would I think that they couldn't cause Juggs to be stunned after they said they would? If he's not going to be stunned, the node should just be +1000% attack.

    I agree to disagree on this. It is what it is. Thanks for your time.
  • SquishyjrThe_4THSquishyjrThe_4TH Posts: 2,668 ★★★★
    edited June 25
    Ok this might sound dumb but is the stun passive?
    I don’t run dungeons that much anymore and can’t remember if the stun had the regular silver brackets or was a passive one
  • LormifLormif Posts: 2,547 ★★★★

    If a node says X will happen, X should happen. Otherwise there is no point in the node other than playing a dirty trick on the user. If there are champs that break the promise, those champs should not be available on that node.

    If I sign a document agreeing to pay you $100, but it turns out I don't have $100, am I then free of that obligation and do you not expect to receive $100? Or is it your fault for not knowing I didn't have $100?

    Again, the analogy about unlimited SP1's is flawed. That is saying that something will happen, and then something happens a lot. Perhaps the extent to which it happens is unexpected to some, but it is not saying something will happen that then does not. I can not think of any other nodes in my 4+ years of playing this game that have specifically stated that something would happen and then the devs put a champ there that specifically prevented that thing from happening. Probably because it negates the need for the node in the first place.

    Even if I had thought ahead to know that Juggs was stun immune at the beginning of the fight, I would have thought he would be stunned BECAUSE THE NODE SAID HE WOULD BE. I mean, basically god of the game, those who are all-powerful and can make essentially anything happen that they like, took the time to make the node say what it said. Why would they bother if it didn't do what they went out of their way to do? Why would I think that they couldn't cause Juggs to be stunned after they said they would? If he's not going to be stunned, the node should just be +1000% attack.

    I agree to disagree on this. It is what it is. Thanks for your time.

    X did happen, the character was just immune to X

    Your analogy is poor, because it depends on the agreement.

    the alalogy with unlimited SP1 is on target. The character knows, or is suposed to know the abilities. You make the choice, not the game.

    There are tons of nodes that say something will happen, and then it does not.

    Caltrops for instance, says the attacker will get a bleed if he dashes back, should bleed immune champs that you attack with get bleed even though they are immune?

    Again stun was attempted to be applied but he shrugged it off.
  • hephaestushephaestus Posts: 134
    There are no nodes where the dev states something will happen and then places a defender that specifically prevents it from happening because that would be a self defeating concept. Using your bleed analogy, the node would say that the champ suffers bleed but the champ they place there is bleed immune. You can't cite where that has happened because it hasn't and would be pointless other than to fool the user. But again, at this point I don't care anymore. I understand why it's not happening and still think it's a dirty trick.
  • UmbertoDelRioUmbertoDelRio Posts: 1,779 ★★★★
    What are you even arguing here, mate?

    The node will stun the oppoment at the start of the fight. Some champs are stun-immune (at the start of the fight), so the stun doesn't stick.

    It's a really simple concept.
  • hephaestushephaestus Posts: 134
    Furthermore, if they did put a bleed immune champ on a bleed node I would think that champ must bleed since the only people on this planet who have the ability to make a champ bleed went to the trouble of making the node to say he/she would do so. That or I would think it would be an error.
  • hephaestushephaestus Posts: 134

    What are you even arguing here, mate?

    The node will stun the oppoment at the start of the fight. Some champs are stun-immune (at the start of the fight), so the stun doesn't stick.

    It's a really simple concept.

    Kabam has the power to stun anyone they want, stun immune or not. To assume that they wouldn't when they said they would requires a knowledge of creators intent that the player does not have. That's my argument.
  • UmbertoDelRioUmbertoDelRio Posts: 1,779 ★★★★
    Why is it a dirty trick, though? If you've played this game for at least a while and put in the tiniest bit of effort, you should know about those kinds of interactions.

    Did you never fight a juggernaut after his buff? Did you never fight emma frost? Mordo? It's commonly know how those champs and others interact with stuns.

    This not being a dirty trick but simply poor planning on your part becomes even more evident looking how it happened in dungeons. You have the choice to tell your mate whichever node you want to have removed. Now if you didn't think about that, how would that be a dirty trick? Did kabam plan on you not focussing on what's happening?

    Look, if they gave us a slumber node in aw (don't know if they do on higher tiered maps) there would only be juggernauts, emmas and mordos on that node. Not to play a cheap trick, but to benefit from those champions abilities that are spelled out for everyone.

    Knowledge is power and your frustration only comes from a lack thereof, it seems. Work on that, instead of accusing anyone of malicious intentions.
  • Mirage_TurtleMirage_Turtle Posts: 1,070 ★★★
    @hephaestus

    Another way to think about it.

    Double Edge and Liquid Courage are traditionally called the Suicide masteries. They increase the user's attack power at the expense of being inflicted with bleed and poison at the start of a fight. There are champions who are immune to the effects of bleed and/or poison. They are effectively bypassing the negative aspects of the masteries while still utilizing the benefits.

    Slumber is a bit like Suicides for the enemy. They see an increase in an attack power, but they must endure being inflicted with stun and power lock at the beginning of the fight. As with traditional Suicides, Slumber will have certain champs who have different (more beneficial) interactions with these debuffs than others (I listed some in a previous post). These champs get to use the benefits of the node...the attack power...without being as weighed down by the debuffs.

    This happens all the time in this game. Nodes are tailored to the enemies occupying the node. For example, Variant 2 has an Improved Power Gain path which grants defenders double passive power gain rate. As such, you'll only see defenders like Dr. Strange, Mordo, Havok, and Hyperion...champions who have passive power gain abilities. Captain America has no passive power gain, so he sees no benefit from this node, so they don't put him on this node.

    Dungeons are a little more random, but the same rules apply. It's not often that you'll find an Extend node on a champ who has no way to inflict debuffs. It can happen, but it's not often. In my experience, 80% of the time when I see Slumber, it's in conjunction with a champ who has an interaction with Stun or Power Lock that will make the fight challenging. It's possible that I'll get someone who has no interactions, but it's rare.

    The point is that it's not a dirty trick to see Juggernaut on a Slumber node. Instead, it's just a test to see if you've been paying attention to champion interactions in this game. Understanding these interactions will pay dividends in this game.
  • LormifLormif Posts: 2,547 ★★★★

    There are no nodes where the dev states something will happen and then places a defender that specifically prevents it from happening because that would be a self defeating concept. Using your bleed analogy, the node would say that the champ suffers bleed but the champ they place there is bleed immune. You can't cite where that has happened because it hasn't and would be pointless other than to fool the user. But again, at this point I don't care anymore. I understand why it's not happening and still think it's a dirty trick.

    So now you are moving the goal posts.. Also the game placed the defender there, not the devs. There is a pool of nodes, and there is a pool of champs that can be minis, it is random.

    you are making logical leaps that you cannot prove, especially given your lack of understanding on the content that would be odd for someone who has played as long as you claim to have.

    If you think that if they put a bleed immune champ on a bleed node it would bleed you would be wrong, because characters abilities ALWAYS **** node abilities. ALWAYS.
  • UmbertoDelRioUmbertoDelRio Posts: 1,779 ★★★★

    What are you even arguing here, mate?

    The node will stun the oppoment at the start of the fight. Some champs are stun-immune (at the start of the fight), so the stun doesn't stick.

    It's a really simple concept.

    Kabam has the power to stun anyone they want, stun immune or not. To assume that they wouldn't when they said they would requires a knowledge of creators intent that the player does not have. That's my argument.
    It absolutely doesn't. What are you even talking about?

    "The defender will be stunned."

    The defener is stun-immune -> what do you expect to happen?

    You don't need any kind of insight in the developers mind to figure this out, mate. Otherwise none of the immunities would make sense in any given situation.

    "This champ is stun immune, but the parry mastery says that the opponent will be stunned on a well timed block. Logic therefore dictates that he should be stunned by a parry."

    This right here is the thought process you're presenting, mate. So either try to understand why you're wrong, because you absolutely are, or work on your wording, if this isn't what you're trying to say.
  • hephaestushephaestus Posts: 134
    edited June 25
    Furthermore, there HAVE been nodes in the past (Wasn't there a taunt immunity node recently? I know they've also made a bunch of nodes recently to nerf Magik specifically.) that have PREVENTED something from happening in a champ's abilities or caused that thing to happen more than it otherwise would. So the existing precedent that they have already set is that champ abilities are in fact modified by nodes when the nodes specifically state things that are contradictory or contributory to the champ's specific abilities.

    If I believe in god, and god says a man will walk on water, why would I not believe god despite all my previous experience that man can not walk on water? Especially when I know there has been at least one instance where a man did walk on water when god said he would and none where a man failed to walk on water when god said he would?

    If I believe Kabam is god of this game, and they say Juggs will be stunned, why would I not believe Kabam despite my previous experience that Juggs can not be stunned? Especially when I know of at least one instance where Kabam has negated a champ ability and none where they have stated they would and didn't?
  • Mirage_TurtleMirage_Turtle Posts: 1,070 ★★★
    Best of luck to you.
  • SquishyjrThe_4THSquishyjrThe_4TH Posts: 2,668 ★★★★
    This has become the funniest joke post I’ve read 😂
    @hephaestus you’re not serious right?
  • LormifLormif Posts: 2,547 ★★★★

    Furthermore, there HAVE been nodes in the past (Wasn't there a taunt immunity node recently? I know they've also made a bunch of nodes recently to nerf Magik specifically.) that have PREVENTED something from happening in a champ's abilities or caused that thing to happen more than it otherwise would. So the existing precedent that they have already set is that champ abilities are in fact modified by nodes when the nodes specifically state things that are contradictory or contributory to the champ's specific abilities.

    If I believe in god, and god says a man will walk on water, why would I not believe god despite all my previous experience that man can not walk on water? Especially when I know there has been at least one instance where a man did walk on water when god said he would and none where a man failed to walk on water when god said he would?

    If I believe Kabam is god of this game, and they say Juggs will be stunned, why would I not believe Kabam despite my previous experience that Juggs can not be stunned? Especially when I know of at least one instance where Kabam has negated a champ ability and none where they have stated they would and didn't?

    This has to be a joke... Kabam is the one who made the rules that champ abilities override node abilities unless the node ability specifically stated otherwise... Your logic falls flat on that.. In your case the node did not stop an immunity, but an ability from triggering. Nodes can do that. Nodes cannot and have not stopped an immunity that I can ever think of, it is why they came out with a special robotic poison/bleed to get around robotic immunities.

    I know admitting you are wrong, but your refusal to let it go is on ex level.
  • UmbertoDelRioUmbertoDelRio Posts: 1,779 ★★★★
    edited June 25

    Furthermore, there HAVE been nodes in the past (Wasn't there a taunt immunity node recently? I know they've also made a bunch of nodes recently to nerf Magik specifically.) that have PREVENTED something from happening in a champ's abilities or caused that thing to happen more than it otherwise would. So the existing precedent that they have already set is that champ abilities are in fact modified by nodes when the nodes specifically state things that are contradictory or contributory to the champ's specific abilities.

    If I believe in god, and god says a man will walk on water, why would I not believe god despite all my previous experience that man can not walk on water? Especially when I know there has been at least one instance where a man did walk on water when god said he would and none where a man failed to walk on water when god said he would?

    If I believe Kabam is god of this game, and they say Juggs will be stunned, why would I not believe Kabam despite my previous experience that Juggs can not be stunned? Especially when I know of at least one instance where Kabam has negated a champ ability and none where they have stated they would and didn't?

    I actually believe you're trolling at this point, because this degree of density is just unreal.

    But for the off chance of you actually still having issues comprehending this:

    To my knowledge there has never been a case of a node overwriting immunities. Feel free to provide some examples, though. But there are so many examples of champions abilities interacting with nodes in a way that isn't the norm for every character.

    Think about pre-buff spidergwen on an unblockable sp1 node. Her sp1 was unblockable, it even said "unblockable" on the screen. But her old sp1 didn't hit you, so it simply didn't matter.

    Juggernaut is stun immune while unstoppable. He starts the fight with an unstoppable buff.
    Therefore he starts the fight stun immune.
    The node tries to apply the stun, but it says on the screen "immune", since he is immune.
    Still following?

    Everythinf works perfectly fine. Stun gets applied -> stun immune -> second part of the node gets active.

    I'm really puzzled. I'd try to use hand puppets, but I don't think even that would be enough at this point.

    EDIT: another example:

    Didn't ebony maw have some kind of ability, or was it a node, that forced some of your hits to be critical?
    I tried that with crossbones.
    Crossbones can't crit -> hit is guaranteed to be critical -> crossbones can't crit -> hit isn't critical.
  • hephaestushephaestus Posts: 134
    edited June 25
    No, really, I'm fine. I wasn't trying to go on and on, was just trying to answer the questions that people were specifically asking. I won't continue on as I do understand how it's making me look. I don't disagree with some of the logic, just that this specific incident applies to some of it. I do see that we will not agree. I know for future reference, that's all that really matters. I'll bring this back up if the precedent is violated someday.
  • B_Dizzle_01B_Dizzle_01 Posts: 1,263 ★★★
    Champ abilities always **** nodes. Example. Bleed immune champs don’t bleed on bleed nodes. Stun immune champs don’t stun on slumber. One may say the Mordo or jugg on slumber may be dirty. I would call it crafty. And you should be aware of little tricks in the game. I got caught once by a Mordo on slumber when dungeons first came out. Lesson learned. Don’t cry about game mechanics just because you got caught.
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