Symbiote Supreme Bugs

The_Watcher · September 2019

Haji_Saab said:

The_Watcher said:
@iRetr0 @Frankmcoc I know sometimes it works and sometimes it just doesn't seem to reduce the damage. I have tested on hype multiple times and there is a inconsistency. But all I was saying is his description specifically tells "per hit" not "per source" like that of Iceman. A clear answer from mods is really welcomed here.
An sp3 is always considered 1 hit for such abilities.

That's what I wanted to know, but he just gave that Template link. From what I remember, sp3 is single souce but can be multiple hits. For example, Cyclops sp3 and see that combo meter rising, thus multiple hits. Better way to see this is tanking more than 3 hits sp3 with KM indestructible charges, they will tank the damage only for 3 hits even though sp3 is single sourced.

DrZola · September 2019

Kabam Zibiit said:
If you believe you've encountered an issue with Symbiote Supreme outside of those that we've already mentioned looking into in this thread, please either share that information in a thread about that issue or you can create one using the forum bug report template. Doing so will help to make it easier to track what information being shared is for which issue.

Can you double check on the interaction between MD and SymSup’s power gain while you are working on the champ? It is very difficult to capture the issue (precise power bar quantum aren’t shown), so it winds up being more of a “this feels very different from other mystic nullify champs” issue.

Even so, here’s what I’ve been doing to check:
1) Record a SymSup fight against a champ who gets buffs but doesn’t give SymSup any additional power gain (e.g., not Psylocke)
2) Review the recording to see how many nullifies occur before SymSup’s first Sp3 (obviously, don’t use any SymSup specials prior to Sp3)
3) Calculate based on his passive 16.5% power gain per 9 seconds (which means he should get his Sp3, ceteris paribus, after about 54-55 seconds if he doesn’t nullify anything at all) how long it took to Sp3.
4) If any nullifies happen before that first Sp3, then your time to that first Sp3 should be less than 54-55 seconds. There’s math involved, but it basically involves calculating in the 5% power for each nullified buff (MD 3/5).

For example, if you get 3 nullifies (15% power), you should be getting that first Sp3 around 46ish seconds (16.5% passive gain/9 secs times 45 secs = 82.5% power plus the 15% stagger power gain for 96.5% of full power).

A recent KK fight in 6.1 yielded 42 seconds to first Sp3 with ~4 nullifies (sometimes they don’t show up in script), which is about what one would expect.

Any other experiences would be welcome. Or any other suggestions to test.

Dr. Zola

DrZola · September 2019

The_Watcher said:

Haji_Saab said:

The_Watcher said:
@iRetr0 @Frankmcoc I know sometimes it works and sometimes it just doesn't seem to reduce the damage. I have tested on hype multiple times and there is a inconsistency. But all I was saying is his description specifically tells "per hit" not "per source" like that of Iceman. A clear answer from mods is really welcomed here.
An sp3 is always considered 1 hit for such abilities.
That's what I wanted to know, but he just gave that Template link. From what I remember, sp3 is single souce but can be multiple hits. For example, Cyclops sp3 and see that combo meter rising, thus multiple hits. Better way to see this is tanking more than 3 hits sp3 with KM indestructible charges, they will tank the damage only for 3 hits even though sp3 is single sourced.

The question probably most applicable to SymSup would be Hypo’s Sp3, which deals two spots of damage. In Null’s Shadow, that shouldn’t be more than 30% of total health, right?

Dr. Zola

The_Watcher · September 2019

DrZola said:

The_Watcher said:

Haji_Saab said:

The_Watcher said:
@iRetr0 @Frankmcoc I know sometimes it works and sometimes it just doesn't seem to reduce the damage. I have tested on hype multiple times and there is a inconsistency. But all I was saying is his description specifically tells "per hit" not "per source" like that of Iceman. A clear answer from mods is really welcomed here.
An sp3 is always considered 1 hit for such abilities.
That's what I wanted to know, but he just gave that Template link. From what I remember, sp3 is single souce but can be multiple hits. For example, Cyclops sp3 and see that combo meter rising, thus multiple hits. Better way to see this is tanking more than 3 hits sp3 with KM indestructible charges, they will tank the damage only for 3 hits even though sp3 is single sourced.
The question probably most applicable to SymSup would be Hypo’s Sp3, which deals two spots of damage. In Null’s Shadow, that shouldn’t be more than 30% of total health, right?

Dr. Zola

Agreed, I think I've seen it not working sometimes but I'm not 100% positive. I'll try a few hypo fights and report back. I'll appreciate if anyone can record when it's not working (recording screws up my fps).

Jake12345 · September 2019

Kabam Miike said:
Hey Summoners,

We wanted to give an update on some of the issues raised here.

In the next game update we’ll be updating the description of Null’s Shadow to clarify that well-timed Blocks trigger Stagger with a 50% chance. Despite the error in the description, this is the percentage chance that is intended for Symbiote Supreme.

After many back and forth conversations and tests, we had to make the decision to keep it as it is now, which is 50%. Any higher percentage would make Symbiote Supreme much more powerful than he already is in this area, which is not something that this Champion needs. We apologize for the confusion caused by this description error.

With relation to Nullify not dealing damage at the beginning of a fight, this an issue that the team is still investigating to work toward a resolution. We have been able to reproduce it, but the solution is a complicated one with many knock-ons to other Abilities. While we are looking at this, it is not something that will be resolved in the next update. We appreciate your patience with relation to this issue.

Is the team also investigating Symbiote Supreme's interaction with Mystic Dispersion? I currently have 3 points in MD.

Today I fought against Red Skull with SS. In this particular fight, Supreme happened to nullify his armor up buffs at the start of the fight like he's supposed to, however I did not gain any power from MD.

borntohula said:

DrZola said:

Lormif said:

DrZola said:
That’s worth taking a look at.

Also, I’m still not seeing the big power gains I would expect with MD and SymSup. I can’t post videos, but it’s still very underwhelming at R4. 5% power every time a buff is nullified or expires...against a Medusa where I’m nullifying pretty much the entire fight I should be generating that 5% a lot—in fact just nullifying the 3 furies she gets periodically would produce 15% of full power by itself (or about half a bar).

Does anyone else see this happening?

Dr. Zola
Unless you are talking about war, or some specific nodes you did not mention then the furies would probably be the only thing MD would affect as that is the only buffs she gets.
You’re correct about Medusa, and I use her only as an example of a champ that gets some buffs but isn’t buff-heavy (WM, Groot, Venom, OML). Those champs should see players having a hard time dropping anything other than a Sp3.

But Medusa’s 3 furies, which occur periodically throughout a fight, should bump SymSup’s power bar around a half bar. I suppose I need to record more and study it, but I continue to be unimpressed with the interaction between SymSup and MD.

Dr. Zola
I am almost 100% positive you are correct. I have tested extensively with Mystic dispersion at level five, and it doesn’t seem to have much impact at all. If any. It’s as if the formula that determines he gains power at a much lower rate than 'regular' champions, is applied to other sources of power as well. In this case, Mystic dispersion.

Symbiote supreme seems to be broken on more than one level. There is still no damage dealt for nullifying buffs at the beginning of the fight either. Or rather, not when the player plays him. Conversely, if you’re up against a Symbiote supreme, and you bring buffs into the fight, you take a truck load of damage. Perhaps players buffs are coded to always activate first?

More on topic, Mystic dispersion is currently not worth it for Symbiote supreme. There is hardly any benefit. There should be. But there isn't. Just take those points out for now.

I have seen his power gain bug in another way as well. During Sinister Labs last month, there was often a node that said "Both champions gain 200% power" (the wording might be slightly different). I used Sym in those matches to test it and he never gained power at a faster rate.

Neotwism · September 2019

I know Kabam has a lot going on right now but is there any word yet on if Symbiote Supreme will be fixed with the next update? October will make it 1 year since this thread was started. All we have in that time is a description change and a broken champ still. I am hoping that he will be fixed soon and wondered if u had any updates yet. I just dont want this slipping through the cracks any longer than it jas already.

Neotwism · September 2019

@Jestress I understand that but that wasnt the only problem SS was dealing with. He still isnt dealing damage at the start of the fights properly. They said they were working on fixing him but it wouldnt be ready for the last update. That's why i wondered if we can look forward to it on the next update.

Neotwism · September 2019

I agree @DrZola Thats why i wanted to comment on it. They finally responded and took a look at him so i dont want to lose that momentum. If they think all of us have moved on or forget about the other issues they may ignore it also.

Neotwism · September 2019

I really hope we can get SS fixed soon. I thought he was the hardest fight during the boss rush. Everytime he dealt damage at the start of the fight yet when i use him to attack it usually fails. I wont even get into the fairness of using champs u know are bugged in new content. That is a whole separate issue.

DrZola · September 2019

My last comment about the as yet unfixed bug for SymSup got deleted—so I will try this a different way: what do you all think the final resolution of the fight-start buff damage bug will be? Will it remain the same? What’s the root of the problem? Can you envision a fix that changes the champ mechanics but still satisfies the player base?

I would also welcome any of the mods who have been active in this thread to participate as well. Just discuss—I think we all want the champ to work correctly, so it’s simply a cordial dialogue.

Dr. Zola

Neotwism · September 2019

After the deserved uproar over taking a year to say the nulls shadow stagger was just an error in the description text, I feel that anything less than fixing the damage to be as described is the only option that would satisfy the community. We have given them the benefit of the doubt about the description error. To now say the damage is an error also would upset everyone that uses the champ. More ppl get SS every day especially since he is in the basic crystal. That means even more ppl will be affected than were affected by the earlier problem. Thats the main reason I am trying to inform everyone that asks about him about this thread and the problems he is having. He is still a good champ, but we shouldnt have to deal with a bugged champ for over a year.

borntohula · September 2019

A little update. Given all the controversy regarding CO changes, a lot of other issues seem to be ignored for a bit. Which makes sense. Personally, I spend way less time in the game now almost stopped spending. Basically, I don’t spend at all anymore, barring Sigil, because I have no idea where the game is going.

I am, however, still doing easy content and helping my alliance along. As far as easy content goes, the current 'bonus' quest Is an excellent way to test SS, because there are no nodes that interfere with this abilities. So what I decided to do, is use SS a lot.

And I think there is still something wrong with [cough] his description. Parry after parry after Parry after Parry after Parry during his second stage. And I still can’t get a stagger up. Fight after fight after fight after fight. If this is a 50% chance to stagger, I am the alien they dissected at Roswell.

And yup, I understand RNG can be enigmatic. I used to play online poker. However, this is not a 50% chance. It just isn’t. If I ever get hyped about the game again, I will record my SS fights. For now, I really can't be bothered since I basically lost interest. But if anyone is willing to invest the time, do so. It’ll be fun.

Short version, in his second stage, the chance to place a stagger when you Parry your opponent is not 50%, as per his new and improved description. It is, in fact, nowhere close.

DrZola · September 2019

@borntohula I will take a look tomorrow.

If what you say is true, I would tend to believe that layers upon layers of code written by who knows how many people is the reason.

Honestly, though, I rarely use my SymSup. He’s a pale shadow of the one we faced in EQ, and it dampens enthusiasm when it feels like pride of authorship is deficient.

Dr. Zola

Neotwism · September 2019

I stopped using him because he is bugged. Knowing he will be changed in some way, why should i get attached and used to how he is now. October will make this 1 year we have been dealing with his problems. I am not spending any more until his situation is
resolved. I doubt it will matter much since i only spend a few hundred a month, but i might as well save it. Im sure alot of ppl r questioning their spending with the unclear future of the game right now.

The_Watcher · September 2019

The_Watcher said:

DrZola said:

The_Watcher said:

Haji_Saab said:

The_Watcher said:
@iRetr0 @Frankmcoc I know sometimes it works and sometimes it just doesn't seem to reduce the damage. I have tested on hype multiple times and there is a inconsistency. But all I was saying is his description specifically tells "per hit" not "per source" like that of Iceman. A clear answer from mods is really welcomed here.
An sp3 is always considered 1 hit for such abilities.
That's what I wanted to know, but he just gave that Template link. From what I remember, sp3 is single souce but can be multiple hits. For example, Cyclops sp3 and see that combo meter rising, thus multiple hits. Better way to see this is tanking more than 3 hits sp3 with KM indestructible charges, they will tank the damage only for 3 hits even though sp3 is single sourced.
The question probably most applicable to SymSup would be Hypo’s Sp3, which deals two spots of damage. In Null’s Shadow, that shouldn’t be more than 30% of total health, right?

Dr. Zola
Agreed, I think I've seen it not working sometimes but I'm not 100% positive. I'll try a few hypo fights and report back. I'll appreciate if anyone can record when it's not working (recording screws up my fps).

Just an update on this. Since the start of time after time solo event, I couldn't test this out (used all those duels for the event). Now since arenas are giving out shards I decided to test today's 5 duels on this matter.

From what I've observed (on 4 duels, one was K.O caused I missed a parry lol) he does reduce damage per hit (15% total with power gain buff active and 30% without buff) (Duel target: Aayush@29). As for SS, he's 4* 4/40 and I'm sure the hype can do much more than 30% damage to a 4/40 champ.

DrZola · October 2019

A suggestion for the team:

Players continue to get thrashed by SymSup when they face him with champs who get buffs at the fight start.

There’s probably a solid argument to be made that the team should ship out a wad of revives and heal pots and whatnot as an apology to the community for allowing the discrepancy in how he works for players vs. for the AI to persist for a full year.

So...any idea when you might be getting around to fixing SymSup?

Dr. Zola

World Eater · October 2019

They initiated an investigation into the buff removal not doing any damage at the start of the fight back in January. There really hasn’t been any progress made on a fix in 10 months??

Lormif · October 2019

MikeHock said:
They initiated an investigation into the buff removal not doing any damage at the start of the fight back in January. There really hasn’t been any progress made on a fix in 10 months??

I realized something when pointing out the damage to someone else that may be realize here. The damage is based on genetic potential, not just staight up. They do not say how it scales with potiential, so it is possible that at zero potential it does zero damage, and the more buffs it removes the damage comes into play. I have had it strip multiple buffs off people and it do damage, and strip one and not do damage, but I cannot remember doing 1 and doing damage or multiple and not doing damage, so that may be the cause.

DrZola · October 2019

Lormif said:

MikeHock said:
They initiated an investigation into the buff removal not doing any damage at the start of the fight back in January. There really hasn’t been any progress made on a fix in 10 months??
I realized something when pointing out the damage to someone else that may be realize here. The damage is based on genetic potential, not just staight up. They do not say how it scales with potiential, so it is possible that at zero potential it does zero damage, and the more buffs it removes the damage comes into play. I have had it strip multiple buffs off people and it do damage, and strip one and not do damage, but I cannot remember doing 1 and doing damage or multiple and not doing damage, so that may be the cause.

Right. What is unclear is whether the buffs nullified count for adding Genetic Potential—I think they should (for example, first buff deals no damage but adds GenPot, second one does some and adds more, and so on).

He’s complex. But I’ve also seen a SymSup roll out with max GenPot. Just seems to be inconsistent.

Dr. Zola.

DrZola · October 2019

Why does this thread merit clean-up? It looks like several comments were recently removed, including some from days ago, but still nothing doing with the actual champion.

Could we at least get an update, even if the update is that we don’t have an update?

Dr. Zola

Neotwism · October 2019

@DrZola Thats probably my fault. In another thread i brought up how sometimes comments have a huge blank space in the replies. Kabam miike asked me to link him where it was happening and i said this thread. They might have cleaned it up when checking. It would have been nice to give us an update if they r already looking at the thread though.

DrZola · October 2019

Neotwism said:
@DrZola Thats probably my fault. In another thread i brought up how sometimes comments have a huge blank space in the replies. Kabam miike asked me to link him where it was happening and i said this thread. They might have cleaned it up when checking. It would have been nice to give us an update if they r already looking at the thread though.

Ahhh...I see. Then my comment should be removed as well.

Dr. Zola

Lormif · October 2019

DrZola said:

Neotwism said:
@DrZola Thats probably my fault. In another thread i brought up how sometimes comments have a huge blank space in the replies. Kabam miike asked me to link him where it was happening and i said this thread. They might have cleaned it up when checking. It would have been nice to give us an update if they r already looking at the thread though.
Ahhh...I see. Then my comment should be removed as well.

Dr. Zola

or they should fix the issue. The blank space tends to move from post to post, typically the last post, so removing the posts does nothing.

Neotwism · October 2019

Finally!!! It looks like update 25 is going to fix SS ability to deal nullify damage at the start of a fight. It's only taken a year and we can only hope he will finally work properly.

Thanks to everyone who has been keeping the problems with SS active and bringing attention to it. I hate to say it, but without everyone keeping this active i doubt he would be getting fixed.

The_Watcher · October 2019

Neotwism said:
Finally!!! It looks like update 25 is going to fix SS ability to deal nullify damage at the start of a fight. It's only taken a year and we can only hope he will finally work properly.

Thanks to everyone who has been keeping the problems with SS active and bringing attention to it. I hate to say it, but without everyone keeping this active i doubt he would be getting fixed.

I do hope he's fixed finally, but the wording "some interactions" is putting me off. Does that mean that it's fixed against some champs while others are still bugged? It's not that general bug fix wording like "fixed an issue with" that's bothering me.

MoNsTeR_804 · October 2019

So is Kabam gonna fix sym supreme?

World Eater · October 2019

I’ll believe it when I see it

Lormif · October 2019

The_Watcher said:

Neotwism said:
Finally!!! It looks like update 25 is going to fix SS ability to deal nullify damage at the start of a fight. It's only taken a year and we can only hope he will finally work properly.

Thanks to everyone who has been keeping the problems with SS active and bringing attention to it. I hate to say it, but without everyone keeping this active i doubt he would be getting fixed.
I do hope he's fixed finally, but the wording "some interactions" is putting me off. Does that mean that it's fixed against some champs while others are still bugged? It's not that general bug fix wording like "fixed an issue with" that's bothering me.

it may be fixed in cases where multiple buffs are on the champion and he strips them all so he gains potential to do the damage.

Symbiote Supreme Bugs

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