**Mastery Loadouts**
Due to issues related to the release of Mastery Loadouts, the "free swap" period will be extended.
The new end date will be May 1st.

Upcoming Cull Obsidian and Ebony Maw Balance Changes

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Comments

  • LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    G0311 said:

    After the knee jerk reaction left my body, I've realized a more logical way of thinking about this.
    I have a 5* rank 5 sig 184. Cull, I want to keep a cool head, because I will take a little less damage output ,only if I get a lot more block proficiency., cull's is pretty bad. I hope this ends up being more of a tweak than a nerf, I dont have much faith in kabam but there's no point in giving myself An aneurism. We will just have to wait and see. Too many knee jerk reactions from many, I do think we will have to be more cautious with our time, units, money and resources when going and ranking up new champs.

    Question, if he is so bad why did you take him to rank 5 sig 184. You should have known how bad he was long before you pumped all those resources into him.
  • CamaroCamaro Posts: 45 ★
    Kabam warned us all months ago they would rebalance champs after release and evaluation.

    To me that simply read “don’t waste money buying champs when they first come out because we might change them”.

    I understand the need for balance, but this extremely discouraged spending money for new champs
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,236 ★★★★★
    Beyond00_ said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Lvernon15 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Lvernon15 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Lvernon15 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    KinkyWizard1 said:

    Kabam Miike said:

    WingTSE said:

    Why not just make champs that can counter balance those champs rather than constantly nerfing champs?

    When you have a Champion that wildly outdamages other Champions, and we start making content to counter that specific Champion, this harshly punishes every other Champion in game, and every Summoner that does not have that Champion.
    Cull “wildly out damages” other champs? Like who and in what content? Show us the magic “data”. This should be good.
    Something that people often miss is that the type of content doesn't really bear hard on the data, aside from where they collect it. Meaning it's not just about End-Game content. While you may find the heaviest hitters there, performance data isn't just about who uses what God Tier in End-Game. Data is data.
    Yes, the data says cull hits really hard everywhere, but that isn’t enough, if you look at the fights he’s against chances are they’re the easiest fights without problem nodes, which the data likley won’t show, kabam aren’t using the right sources here, rather than looking at damage data they need to look at more specific things, I haven’t seen anyone using him for tough fights in 6.2 including all content creators and the 3 very prestigious alliances I’ve been in since 6.2 was released
    If you're looking at Damage amounts, it is enough.
    Did you read my post? Being able to do easy fights fast is NOT significant enough to make a champ need a nerf, I could use anyone for those fights and easily get though them, all cull does there is make it faster, he doesn’t provide anything that makes him a game changer for an account, now act 5 is likley a different story since 90% of the fights are what I’m classing as ‘easy’ fights without nodes requiring a specific champ, but act 6 v1 and other endgame content are built around these ‘problem fights’ which makes cull only really be any good for a couple paths that any champ could do
    I read your response, and it's understandable for people to rationalize these things when they're upset. "It's not that much because of Condition X and Condition Y."
    However, it's in the numbers on their end, and numbers can't lie. They're undoubtedly aware of this community and the history regarding changes. If the data wasn't showing reason to consider him higher than the others, they wouldn't be opening up that can of worms. You can't argue conditions with the numbers, and evidently there is a "Too much." threshold in comparison to other high-end Champs.
    I thing I’ve learnt about numbers is that they don’t lie but they can be deceiving, and this is a prime example of this
    You think they're deceiving because they show him higher than any other? Tell me. If that's the case, why did so many people Rank him? Was that because it wasn't that good, and the ramp-up took time, and he couldn't do this and that? No. It was because of the Damage.
    Why shouldn't people be allowed to rank Cull for damage?. It's the only thing he has. Why not nerf hyperion for excessive power gain or wolverine for too much regeneration, do you class these as problems?.
    I didn't say they shouldn't. The argument was made that the data was misleading. You can't make that claim when referring to the data showing he scored higher than any other in terms of Damage, and ignore the obvious fact that people Ranked him for the very same reason.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,657 Guardian
    Lvernon15 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Lvernon15 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Lvernon15 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    KinkyWizard1 said:

    Kabam Miike said:

    WingTSE said:

    Why not just make champs that can counter balance those champs rather than constantly nerfing champs?

    When you have a Champion that wildly outdamages other Champions, and we start making content to counter that specific Champion, this harshly punishes every other Champion in game, and every Summoner that does not have that Champion.
    Cull “wildly out damages” other champs? Like who and in what content? Show us the magic “data”. This should be good.
    Something that people often miss is that the type of content doesn't really bear hard on the data, aside from where they collect it. Meaning it's not just about End-Game content. While you may find the heaviest hitters there, performance data isn't just about who uses what God Tier in End-Game. Data is data.
    Yes, the data says cull hits really hard everywhere, but that isn’t enough, if you look at the fights he’s against chances are they’re the easiest fights without problem nodes, which the data likley won’t show, kabam aren’t using the right sources here, rather than looking at damage data they need to look at more specific things, I haven’t seen anyone using him for tough fights in 6.2 including all content creators and the 3 very prestigious alliances I’ve been in since 6.2 was released
    If you're looking at Damage amounts, it is enough.
    Did you read my post? Being able to do easy fights fast is NOT significant enough to make a champ need a nerf, I could use anyone for those fights and easily get though them, all cull does there is make it faster, he doesn’t provide anything that makes him a game changer for an account, now act 5 is likley a different story since 90% of the fights are what I’m classing as ‘easy’ fights without nodes requiring a specific champ, but act 6 v1 and other endgame content are built around these ‘problem fights’ which makes cull only really be any good for a couple paths that any champ could do
    I read your response, and it's understandable for people to rationalize these things when they're upset. "It's not that much because of Condition X and Condition Y."
    However, it's in the numbers on their end, and numbers can't lie. They're undoubtedly aware of this community and the history regarding changes. If the data wasn't showing reason to consider him higher than the others, they wouldn't be opening up that can of worms. You can't argue conditions with the numbers, and evidently there is a "Too much." threshold in comparison to other high-end Champs.
    I thing I’ve learnt about numbers is that they don’t lie but they can be deceiving, and this is a prime example of this
    That's a bold statement to make without the context of seeing the numbers.
  • DshuDshu Posts: 1,503 ★★★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    Dshu said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    So what happens the next time they have to rebalance a Champ? This is round 1 of regular revisions. Do people threaten to Boycott everytime one comes?
    If there's something that needs to be adjusted, they will adjust it. That's what they've committed to. People can't threaten to take the revisions hostage everytime a Champ they like is being questioned.

    I don't think the argument is about all future readjustments. Adjusting champs who are underperforming is welcomed by the community. When they adjust champs down after advertising and selling thousands in cavalier crystals usually multiple offers for champs that are overhyped by Youtubers it creates a sense of mistrust in the community. They adjusted cull twice to balance his power already and it was excepted by the community. He isn't a game breaking champ as he stands since he has very low block proficiency and requires parry to function as intended. I'm not even a fan of cull myself since I prefer intercept to parry but I see a huge problem with nerfing a product after multiple sale pushes. I'd rather see them under promise on a champs power and abilities and later over deliver with a buff as needed. If the game team and content creators are testing these champs they should have some idea before the release if they will be overpowered
    The comment was made that Cull wouldn't be adjusted or it would be 12.0 all over again. That suggests a very perpetual situation. Give in, and the next time it creates a situation where people are controlling the game.
    It works both ways. If a Champ is way too powerful, balancing can work the other way. I'm not saying that to create a fear of every strong Champ being adjusted. It entirely depends on the context of the data. The bottom line in this case is he was showing higher than any other, and that's higher than they intend any Champ to hit within the snapshot they collected.
    The problem is that there is a fear that any strong champ can be adjusted after resources are used to rank them. Sure rankdown tickets can be issued on a case by case basis and allow players to recover those resources but what about the money some players spend to acquire said champ because of the damage advertised or abilities advertised. Many of these posts can be lumped into 2 groups
    1- resources were spent and now the champion wont be the same as the one I ranked (one of the more powerful damage dealers in the game leaves a lot of gray area. Are we talking top 5 top 10 top 20.) This can be remedied with rankdown tickets but they are not a popular option for kabam and just create more posts demanding them for every change regardless of how minor.
    2- people who spent to get a particular champ. Some spend large amounts of money on these but even $1 spent to get a champ who is no longer what was advertised have no way to be made whole.

    I get balancing the game and that's why I said in my original post to under promise on power and abilities and over deliver after the release if they need a buff for tuning. With testing by the game team and content creators they should have a good idea of what these new champs are capable of.
  • LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    RJustice_209 said:

    Japam12345 said:

    Nojokejaym said:

    Lol y’all complaining as if y’all didn’t know this was coming after they announced their 3 month plan for champs

    Exactly.

    People complaining about spending money on the Cav crystals - it's not like you're not told that Cull could be looked at.

    Also it's not like he's the only guy you're getting from the Crystal - don't tell me you won't be happy pulling a Corvus or a Domino or a Ghost from the Cav Crystal as well.

    Also if you'd R5 him over the past month or so - again - you knew a review was coming, it's on you to impulsively rank him up without waiting a bit.

    Kabam isn't the to be blamed for everything you do in the game, c'mon now.
    Are you just using a **** approach and reading the 1st sentence? Review and tuning will be done to champs BEFORE they come out of the regular crystals.
    IF IT NEEDS A SMALL ADJUSTMENT, also that does not preclude other changes if absolutely needed.
  • Justin2524Justin2524 Posts: 1,626 ★★★★
    Dizzy said:



    All I am saying - legitimately all I am saying - is that it's a cruddy thing to do to adjust Cull at this point given this communication, in any direction. That frankly applies to Maw and Ronin as well - at this point in the game, when they are in the basic, we should be able to safely decide that we are / are not going to invest resources in specific champions.

    PS - I hope they severely adjust your Nick Fury / Domino / Omega / Corvus you bragposting, unhelpful addition to our community :)

    You sound like a logical and a level headed guy.

    Tell me this - do you think a company can 100% test out a champ and have him perfected and not leave any loophole where he can be too OP for the game?

    And as a follow up to that, do you honestly not think it is in the Game's best interest for Kabam to keep the game well balanced?
  • WillieBWillieB Posts: 150 ★★
    Japam12345 said:

    WillieB said:

    Japam12345 said:

    People would complain for the sake of complaining sometimes... smh. .

    "Cull will remain one of the best damage champ in the game".

    Read.

    The problem is that Kabaam as a company does not know what a "best" champ is. This is obvious, especially after this post by them saying that Cull is too powerful and Ronin is ok. I have been "lucky" by pulling Ronin three times as a 5 star and he is never used outside of arena runs. He doesn't do anything well enough to get use. Cull does have great damage after he is ramped up, but his block proficiency is terrible. Even if you play him perfectly against end game content he loses health way too fast. I have him as a rank 4, but again, he never gets a spot on any of my teams because I have better options. Compared to Corvus, Ghost, IW Cap, Omega Red and a few others he lags far behind as an AQ/AW or questing champ. They obviously don't know how champions interact with the game if these are their conclusions. Now if they made a post saying that Ghost and Corvus will be re-balanced, then they have a point, and I have them both as max sig rank 5s, but not Cull.

    Yeah but out side of Corvus, Ghost, IW Cap, Omega Red, you would agree he is still one of the top damage dealer in the game once ramped up?

    He's easily top 10% in the game - correct?
    He might be top 10%, maybe, maybe not. But why nerf a champion that ranks in the 10-20 range? If you're going to start nefing champs why not go to the top, to the true game-breakers?
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,657 Guardian
    Lormif said:

    Lvernon15 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Lvernon15 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Lvernon15 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    KinkyWizard1 said:

    Kabam Miike said:

    WingTSE said:

    Why not just make champs that can counter balance those champs rather than constantly nerfing champs?

    When you have a Champion that wildly outdamages other Champions, and we start making content to counter that specific Champion, this harshly punishes every other Champion in game, and every Summoner that does not have that Champion.
    Cull “wildly out damages” other champs? Like who and in what content? Show us the magic “data”. This should be good.
    Something that people often miss is that the type of content doesn't really bear hard on the data, aside from where they collect it. Meaning it's not just about End-Game content. While you may find the heaviest hitters there, performance data isn't just about who uses what God Tier in End-Game. Data is data.
    Yes, the data says cull hits really hard everywhere, but that isn’t enough, if you look at the fights he’s against chances are they’re the easiest fights without problem nodes, which the data likley won’t show, kabam aren’t using the right sources here, rather than looking at damage data they need to look at more specific things, I haven’t seen anyone using him for tough fights in 6.2 including all content creators and the 3 very prestigious alliances I’ve been in since 6.2 was released
    If you're looking at Damage amounts, it is enough.
    Did you read my post? Being able to do easy fights fast is NOT significant enough to make a champ need a nerf, I could use anyone for those fights and easily get though them, all cull does there is make it faster, he doesn’t provide anything that makes him a game changer for an account, now act 5 is likley a different story since 90% of the fights are what I’m classing as ‘easy’ fights without nodes requiring a specific champ, but act 6 v1 and other endgame content are built around these ‘problem fights’ which makes cull only really be any good for a couple paths that any champ could do
    I read your response, and it's understandable for people to rationalize these things when they're upset. "It's not that much because of Condition X and Condition Y."
    However, it's in the numbers on their end, and numbers can't lie. They're undoubtedly aware of this community and the history regarding changes. If the data wasn't showing reason to consider him higher than the others, they wouldn't be opening up that can of worms. You can't argue conditions with the numbers, and evidently there is a "Too much." threshold in comparison to other high-end Champs.
    I thing I’ve learnt about numbers is that they don’t lie but they can be deceiving, and this is a prime example of this
    I have to disagree with grounded wisdom and you here. Numbers can lie. There are entire fields of statistics dedicated to understanding numbers to make sure they are seeing the truth.
    No field of math assumes numbers can lie. Numbers cannot lie any more than colors can lie.

    Numbers are subject to interpretation, and interpretation can be wrong, because humans are fallible. When it comes to mathematics, extremely fallible.
  • Justin2524Justin2524 Posts: 1,626 ★★★★
    WillieB said:



    He might be top 10%, maybe, maybe not. But why nerf a champion that ranks in the 10-20 range? If you're going to start nefing champs why not go to the top, to the true game-breakers?

    If you don't think he's top 10% of ALL THE CHAMPS IN THE GAME you're not being honest with yourself.
  • LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    WillieB said:

    Japam12345 said:

    WillieB said:

    Japam12345 said:

    People would complain for the sake of complaining sometimes... smh. .

    "Cull will remain one of the best damage champ in the game".

    Read.

    The problem is that Kabaam as a company does not know what a "best" champ is. This is obvious, especially after this post by them saying that Cull is too powerful and Ronin is ok. I have been "lucky" by pulling Ronin three times as a 5 star and he is never used outside of arena runs. He doesn't do anything well enough to get use. Cull does have great damage after he is ramped up, but his block proficiency is terrible. Even if you play him perfectly against end game content he loses health way too fast. I have him as a rank 4, but again, he never gets a spot on any of my teams because I have better options. Compared to Corvus, Ghost, IW Cap, Omega Red and a few others he lags far behind as an AQ/AW or questing champ. They obviously don't know how champions interact with the game if these are their conclusions. Now if they made a post saying that Ghost and Corvus will be re-balanced, then they have a point, and I have them both as max sig rank 5s, but not Cull.

    Yeah but out side of Corvus, Ghost, IW Cap, Omega Red, you would agree he is still one of the top damage dealer in the game once ramped up?

    He's easily top 10% in the game - correct?
    He might be top 10%, maybe, maybe not. But why nerf a champion that ranks in the 10-20 range? If you're going to start nefing champs why not go to the top, to the true game-breakers?
    Their hard data seems to counter your soft opinion.
  • LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    KinkyWizard1 said:

    Lormif said:

    WillieB said:

    Japam12345 said:

    WillieB said:

    Japam12345 said:

    People would complain for the sake of complaining sometimes... smh. .

    "Cull will remain one of the best damage champ in the game".

    Read.

    The problem is that Kabaam as a company does not know what a "best" champ is. This is obvious, especially after this post by them saying that Cull is too powerful and Ronin is ok. I have been "lucky" by pulling Ronin three times as a 5 star and he is never used outside of arena runs. He doesn't do anything well enough to get use. Cull does have great damage after he is ramped up, but his block proficiency is terrible. Even if you play him perfectly against end game content he loses health way too fast. I have him as a rank 4, but again, he never gets a spot on any of my teams because I have better options. Compared to Corvus, Ghost, IW Cap, Omega Red and a few others he lags far behind as an AQ/AW or questing champ. They obviously don't know how champions interact with the game if these are their conclusions. Now if they made a post saying that Ghost and Corvus will be re-balanced, then they have a point, and I have them both as max sig rank 5s, but not Cull.

    Yeah but out side of Corvus, Ghost, IW Cap, Omega Red, you would agree he is still one of the top damage dealer in the game once ramped up?

    He's easily top 10% in the game - correct?
    He might be top 10%, maybe, maybe not. But why nerf a champion that ranks in the 10-20 range? If you're going to start nefing champs why not go to the top, to the true game-breakers?
    Their hard data seems to counter your soft opinion.
    Where can we see the data?
    What does that have to do with the statement. Do you really honestly think they are risking losing money, as well as alienating their customer base just because they want to?
  • feanorkndfeanorknd Posts: 37 ★
    edited September 2019
    You nerf Cull because of damage... OK... Why don't you nerf Namor? Corvus? Thing? Ghost?

    Namor is a complete beast, brand new, and so much more damage than Cull and without needing to ramp it up...

    You are completely wrong...

    Again, will you return to me my cosmic awakening gem used to awake Cull??? Not at all... Certainly... Well, this is completely unacceptable and you know it.
  • ZuroZuro Posts: 2,719 ★★★★★
    I don't even understand this nerf like he wasn't even top class like don't get me wrong his damage is great but that's all he has no utility, no health, and no block proficiency yet they nerf the only good thing he has
  • LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    Manup456 said:

    So we are basically beta testers that have to spend money and resources to test for them. That stuff makes no sense.

    Why can’t you create a program like content creator program and have them test the champs for 3 months prior to release?

    because that does not guarantee balance.
  • SDPSDP Posts: 1,622 ★★★★
    edited September 2019
    Lormif said:

    KinkyWizard1 said:

    Lormif said:

    WillieB said:

    Japam12345 said:

    WillieB said:

    Japam12345 said:

    People would complain for the sake of complaining sometimes... smh. .

    "Cull will remain one of the best damage champ in the game".

    Read.

    The problem is that Kabaam as a company does not know what a "best" champ is. This is obvious, especially after this post by them saying that Cull is too powerful and Ronin is ok. I have been "lucky" by pulling Ronin three times as a 5 star and he is never used outside of arena runs. He doesn't do anything well enough to get use. Cull does have great damage after he is ramped up, but his block proficiency is terrible. Even if you play him perfectly against end game content he loses health way too fast. I have him as a rank 4, but again, he never gets a spot on any of my teams because I have better options. Compared to Corvus, Ghost, IW Cap, Omega Red and a few others he lags far behind as an AQ/AW or questing champ. They obviously don't know how champions interact with the game if these are their conclusions. Now if they made a post saying that Ghost and Corvus will be re-balanced, then they have a point, and I have them both as max sig rank 5s, but not Cull.

    Yeah but out side of Corvus, Ghost, IW Cap, Omega Red, you would agree he is still one of the top damage dealer in the game once ramped up?

    He's easily top 10% in the game - correct?
    He might be top 10%, maybe, maybe not. But why nerf a champion that ranks in the 10-20 range? If you're going to start nefing champs why not go to the top, to the true game-breakers?
    Their hard data seems to counter your soft opinion.
    Where can we see the data?
    What does that have to do with the statement. Do you really honestly think they are risking losing money, as well as alienating their customer base just because they want to?
    It has everything to do with the statement. You said “their hard data counters your soft opinion”. What data? How do you know this unseen data holds any merit as a counter argument to anything if you have never evaluated its accuracy? For a man professing the power of context, the necessity of logic, and rational thinking, you sure are quick to buy into unfounded claims of supporting data.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,657 Guardian
    Dizzy said:

    at this point in the game, when they are in the basic, we should be able to safely decide that we are / are not going to invest resources in specific champions.

    It seems silly, but I'm starting to think that Kabam needs to provide a warning every time a player buys an offer, exchanges for a crystal, awakens or ranks a champion, or spends any money or currency on anything, that the game is subject to change at any time for balance, implementation, or any other reason, and the player should not take any action predicated on the assumption that the game won't change, because it will.

    Because there is no safe time to invest in resources. You are required to agree there is no safe time to invest resources. If you do not agree, and believe the players deserve to have a guarantee of safe periods to invest resources, you're legally not allowed to play the game.

    If this is something you feel you need, that's fine. Everyone needs different things from their entertainment. You shouldn't feel compelled to change your mind. But the EULA for the game you play requires you to agree. The EULA cannot force you to agree. But it prohibits you from playing the game if you don't agree.
  • LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    KinkyWizard1 said:

    Lormif said:

    KinkyWizard1 said:

    Lormif said:

    WillieB said:

    Japam12345 said:

    WillieB said:

    Japam12345 said:

    People would complain for the sake of complaining sometimes... smh. .

    "Cull will remain one of the best damage champ in the game".

    Read.

    The problem is that Kabaam as a company does not know what a "best" champ is. This is obvious, especially after this post by them saying that Cull is too powerful and Ronin is ok. I have been "lucky" by pulling Ronin three times as a 5 star and he is never used outside of arena runs. He doesn't do anything well enough to get use. Cull does have great damage after he is ramped up, but his block proficiency is terrible. Even if you play him perfectly against end game content he loses health way too fast. I have him as a rank 4, but again, he never gets a spot on any of my teams because I have better options. Compared to Corvus, Ghost, IW Cap, Omega Red and a few others he lags far behind as an AQ/AW or questing champ. They obviously don't know how champions interact with the game if these are their conclusions. Now if they made a post saying that Ghost and Corvus will be re-balanced, then they have a point, and I have them both as max sig rank 5s, but not Cull.

    Yeah but out side of Corvus, Ghost, IW Cap, Omega Red, you would agree he is still one of the top damage dealer in the game once ramped up?

    He's easily top 10% in the game - correct?
    He might be top 10%, maybe, maybe not. But why nerf a champion that ranks in the 10-20 range? If you're going to start nefing champs why not go to the top, to the true game-breakers?
    Their hard data seems to counter your soft opinion.
    Where can we see the data?
    What does that have to do with the statement. Do you really honestly think they are risking losing money, as well as alienating their customer base just because they want to?
    It has everything to do with the statement. You said “their hard data counters your soft opinion”. What data? How do you know this unseen data holds any merit as a counter argument to anything if you have never evaluated its accuracy? For a man professing the power of context, the necessity of logic, and rational thinking, you sure are quick to buy into unfounded claims of supporting data.
    Again, answer my question... Do you really honestly think they would lose all this money, alienate all these customers, for what reason? The supporting data claim is not unfounded, I know the data that these types of companies get, but what reason do they have to lie about this. It does not garner them any extra money, and it causes them to lose money going forward.
  • BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 2,277 ★★★★★
    Lormif said:

    Manup456 said:

    So we are basically beta testers that have to spend money and resources to test for them. That stuff makes no sense.

    Why can’t you create a program like content creator program and have them test the champs for 3 months prior to release?

    because that does not guarantee balance.
    It gets closer and would probably be better for the long-term health of the game than the current clownfest. No one rational expects perfection and enhanced testing should prevent missteps like Ebony Maw and Diablow and probably could have prevented the Sentry disaster.
  • Justin2524Justin2524 Posts: 1,626 ★★★★
    LOL GUYS...

    You're all calling it a 'nerf' when Kabam had said that Cull will still remain one of the TOP DAMAGE DEALER in the game.

    Slow your horses.
  • Duke_SilverDuke_Silver Posts: 2,421 ★★★★
    This CO adjustment better be slight. I want that dude so bad, and I’d like it if by the time I finally got him, he was still an awesome champ.
This discussion has been closed.