Upcoming Cull Obsidian and Ebony Maw Balance Changes

Plantesan · September 2019

GroundedWisdom said:

r3dy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

r3dy said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Diksh619 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

KoperBoy said:

GroundedWisdom said:
As DNA suggested, I don't think they're looking at "X amount of Damage". It's not even necessary to comb the data to see he can hit hard. For me, the key part of the comment is the comparative one. They said he does more than any other higher-end Champs. I don't think that's necessarily the amount of Damage in total he's capable of. I think it's some other factor. In any event, what it suggests is that he varies from other Champs in a degree they're not comfortable with.
The big problem with this is context. Yes he outdamages Ghost, Omega Red or Namor when fully ramped up, but those champs are usable in 95% of end-game content, while Cull is usable in approximately half of that - if at all.

Looking at champ only through damage output prism is very shortsighted. I expect they balance him and not only nerf his damage. Maybe cap his charges at 8 and give him another good ability.
The other point I made was that we don't know what Damage comparison they made. I don't think it was maximum output necessarily. It could have been the amount over time. It may take some effort to ramp him up, but if he's doing hundreds of thousands within the first 10 seconds of a Fight, that's noticeable. Just an example, not necessarily what they were looking at.
Hey do you even have a Cull.. I have him at r4 and trust me winning the first 4-5 fights is no fun..HE CAN'T SURVIVE AGAINST - Domino, symbiote supreme, Magik, etc. He is super bad on limber, poison, bleed,degen.
His ramp up is not just a little pain. It's enormous pain. He takes more skill and understanding of the game to ramp up. You have to literally kill your team to get him to that 4-5 fights. I am fine with the damage nerf if they wish to do that. What the community is angry about is:
1. Lack of communication - No details and one sided statements. Please ask us what we think. Maybe a poll or the CCP guys can speak on our behalf.
2. This balancing is fine but they need to start a beta program for better testing else it will hurt their business(Crystal sales)
3. No acknowledgement of bugs but pro player issues get emergency maintenance(Which is good) but other issues need to be prioritized as well.

So for god's sake please think seriously about the points i mentioned. It's not just a champions buff or nerf that is the issue but the way its done. Remember patch 12.0. Initially it was looking super bad but overall it was good for the game. Maybe same is the thing here but the APPROACH is the real point that needs to be corrected.

Have a good day gentlemen!
There are no details to give. All they said was they looked at the data and noticed something that needed attention. When they have specifics, I'm sure they'll share them. These revisions don't really fall under bugs. It's not a help the Players/help Kabam situation. It's just overall improvement of the process of revising Champs. It not only helps them with future content, but it also lightens the load when it comes to larger buffs. There's less room for extreme gaps. They couldn't be more communicative on the issue. 3 months ahead of time is about as upfront as it gets. I'd venture a guess that there aren't specific ideas for changes to share yet. They're trying to be upfront. They didn't divulge their data and entire inner workings, but that's not communication, it's a Trial IMO. We don't know what they're tweaking. They could be adding things, reducing, who knows? All they said was Damage, and people were triggered. The bottom line from my point of view is it doesn't matter about Utility because that's not what they were looking at. I don't have any arguments with people asking to give him some, but they were looking at how his Damage is surpassing Champs in one aspect or another. Not how hard it is to ramp him up, or what he's weak against. At least not based on what's been said. They evidently have an issue with one of his capabilities. As much as people think he should have that as a trade-off, that's a problem for balance moving forward. Unless they give some indication to the contrary, that's my take on it.
You just keep repeting the OP.....

They are talking about balance, and balance is more than just damage, whatever they mention something else or not, balance is a general review of the champions.

Once again, Cull was already out before they said anything about these 3 months.

This 3-month period is something that many people in the community disagree with, and there have been many arguments about it.

Since Kabam does not have the tools, the means or the will to properly test the champions, then it makes sense for the community to give them some ideas about what really could be a good balance for the champions.
We've already been over this. They've been out a little over 3 months, yes. People wanted Maw to be reviewed and Cull was around the same time. Ronin didn't really need anything. They had planned on starting with HT and Ann., but we were the ones that asked for Maw.
People are free to agree or disagree with the 3-month period, but that's what they've committed to. They're also free to add their own suggestions, I don't really argue people expressing those. However, balancing Champs has more to do with the Champs in and of themselves. What this suggests is they are also balancing them among all others with certain soft limits. "Too little, too much."
They have the capabilities and the willingness to test. What they said was you can't gather nearly as much data from actual game play. These rebalances are retroactive based on what actually plays out in the game, not predicted scenarios. Once again, Champs will always be up for improvement. As is the rest of the game. I know it's easy to say if they tested, it would be perfect forever and ever. It doesn't work like that. The Champs are created and fine tuned to the very Meta created by us.
Like always you are just repeting your self...

Maw is a story and cull is another, kabam has shown that they can make different decisions based on each champion, so people can agree with Maw and disagree with cull, and several arguments have been presented in these 54 pages.

Nobody is committed to anything, kabam has made several mistakes over the years, and people are pointing out others, they can do something about it or not, but there is no reason for the community to stop giving their opinions on each aspect of the game

About the test, they can say what they want, just like you, that doesn't make it right or enough, there are aspects that can only be based on the user experience, as well as others that can test it on the developers side, but those based on user feedback can be obtained in several other ways that kabam is not using, or stop using at this point, but the way they are using is, by far, a very bad and wrong way to do it, according to the business model they have (sale of champions and resources)

I have not read any publication that says that if they test anything, the result will be perfect forever, but to say that every mistake, unbalanced or unexpected interactions can only be captured based on user data, it is a wild and unsubstantiated guess, and even if that's true, as stated earlier, this data collection can be done differently

If I'm repeating myself, so is everyone else. That usually happens in discussions where one side or both do not see eye to eye. Only in this case, I see the other side. It's just not accepting the points I'm making. 54 pages later.
People might disagree with it or not, but these changes aren't just done on popular vote. They're based on the data. The only thing that people speaking up suggests is there may be something to look at. Which they did. When they saw that Maw was underperforming, as people said, they also saw that Cull was over-performing (for lack of a better term). People asking is only one part of the equation. The other is where they go back and support it internally with what they find.
As for testing, I feel that point is exhausted. Testing isn't going to prevent all problems and it isn't going to map the entire game out for changes months and years down the road. The data IS the result of us playing it.

Still sounds like if people need to worry about ranking champs up and having said champs rebalanced (for better or for worse) months later, leave them at r3/r1 and let kabam worry about where the r4+ data comes from on their own.

Is it counterproductive? Probably, but that is on kabam to figure it out.

GroundedWisdom · September 2019

zeezee57 said:

GroundedWisdom said:
We don't evaluate their data. They do. People may not see how Ronin is performing up to par, but they're also looking at their own experience, from where they are at in the game. Are they okay with him being average? I can't speak for them. What I can say is not every Champ will be God Tier, and not every Champ will be the best choice for End-Game. There is always going to be somewhat of a range. Personally I find it a bit arbitrary to argue that we haven't seen the data. We never do. That's not really a process I'm familiar with here. I have yet to see us approve of their data and findings before they make assertions.
The entire premise of almost all of your arguments is based on the data, and your assumption that the data they are choosing and their interpretation of that data is more accurate than the consensus of the community. You've shown time and time again that you don't actually have an opinion on the champs being discussed, you're not well versed on their abilities or the scenarios in which they thrive or struggle, your opinion is that Kabam knows best and that's that. Until you prove otherwise with a rebuttal not citing unseen data, but your own thoughts on why a specific champ should or shouldn't be changed, in this case Cull, it's safe to say you have no idea what you're talking about. Since you support the idea that Cull is out performing every other champ to a degree warranting change, tell us why you think that without using the default "because Kabam said so" or just stop arguing it.

I gave my opinion on it. It was lost in pages of people arguing about data and Kabam.

DrZola · September 2019

I criticize the communications with the community a lot, but this again seems like an opportunity craving better communication.

Data would be great, but what would be even better is a sense of what specific attributes tend to draw the attention of the developers.

Two champs are presumably in the midst of rebalancing (Annihilus/HT). What specifically underperformed with those champs—beyond just “X was doing poorly in AW D”—and why? What are the options to address that?

Similarly, the team decided to do nothing about Ronin. Why is he balanced?

It’s not hard to see why the community reacts viscerally when changes are handed down like diktat. If the mods aren’t able to speak to what puts a champ on their radar, have a developer come on and chat. That happened around 12.0 and was informative.

And if Q&A on this topic with the broader forums is a problem, have Q&A with some of the CCP participants. Seems simple to me.

Dr. Zola

Stingerbk · September 2019

https://youtu.be/_M32ItrQrW0
Well the way things are going, he isn't gonna be the last. Hope kabam learns something before its too late. People wouldn't spend and invest if you will just wake up and change that whenever within the first 3 months, walk away will be the result.

SunnyJim_123 · September 2019

M_virk said:
So @Kabam Miike are you guys just gonna ignore this and wait this out?
You need to give some response and clarification.

You cant just ignore your community and hope we will get over this.

That’s exactly what they will do because the only time the community has come together was 12.0 and since then loads of complaints and comments but no action... they know if they say nothing on this thread it will be overlooked until the next thing then this will be forgotten

borntohula · September 2019

SunnyJim_123 said:

That’s exactly what they will do because the only time the community has come together was 12.0 and since then loads of complaints and comments but no action... they know if they say nothing on this thread it will be overlooked until the next thing then this will be forgotten

Yes, it will blow over. People will move on. You can only discuss a topic for so long (with the exception of a few forum regulars). And you can hopefully only stay angry for a bit. On the other hand, this is such a fundamental decision, it is game changing. And I don't mean the Cull changes as such. But the precedent it sets. You literally don't know what you're buying anymore.

The only sensible response - bar quitting altogether like Rho-No and quite a few other spenders - is not buying. After all, even if RDT's become the new norm, everything else you invested - time and/or money - is gone. Whether the game is still worthy of the effort, is something everyone needs to decide for themselves.

GroundedWisdom · September 2019

The reactions aren't even based on anything that's come to pass yet. All they said was he was doing more than other Champs in one form or another. Then Nerfgate 2019 started. From what I understand, these aren't even major overhauls. Just minor tweaks to adjust some imbalances. People heard Damage, started crying nerf, and some are even jumping ship. All before anything has even been indicated to change.

borntohula · September 2019

GroundedWisdom said:
The reactions aren't even based on anything that's come to pass yet. All they said was he was doing more than other Champs in one form or another. Then Nerfgate 2019 started. From what I understand, these aren't even major overhauls. Just minor tweaks to adjust some imbalances. People heard Damage, started crying nerf, and some are even jumping ship. All before anything has even been indicated to change.

Are you sure it's a ship? Could be a submarine next month. A hang glider in three. Best bring a scuba diving tank and a parachute. Just in case.

GroundedWisdom · September 2019

zeezee57 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

zeezee57 said:

GroundedWisdom said:
We don't evaluate their data. They do. People may not see how Ronin is performing up to par, but they're also looking at their own experience, from where they are at in the game. Are they okay with him being average? I can't speak for them. What I can say is not every Champ will be God Tier, and not every Champ will be the best choice for End-Game. There is always going to be somewhat of a range. Personally I find it a bit arbitrary to argue that we haven't seen the data. We never do. That's not really a process I'm familiar with here. I have yet to see us approve of their data and findings before they make assertions.
The entire premise of almost all of your arguments is based on the data, and your assumption that the data they are choosing and their interpretation of that data is more accurate than the consensus of the community. You've shown time and time again that you don't actually have an opinion on the champs being discussed, you're not well versed on their abilities or the scenarios in which they thrive or struggle, your opinion is that Kabam knows best and that's that. Until you prove otherwise with a rebuttal not citing unseen data, but your own thoughts on why a specific champ should or shouldn't be changed, in this case Cull, it's safe to say you have no idea what you're talking about. Since you support the idea that Cull is out performing every other champ to a degree warranting change, tell us why you think that without using the default "because Kabam said so" or just stop arguing it.
I gave my opinion on it. It was lost in pages of people arguing about data and Kabam.
I've seen you respond once with an answer that was just argument by authority, regarding why Annihilus needed balancing and Ronin didn't, and it was absolutely devoid of any substance. It was basically "Ronin seems to end things quicker" and that was the entirety of your position. So for the record, what do you think about Cull is an issue warranting change? Is it that he's demolishing act 6 single handed? Does he make the Variants too easy? Where have you seen him (not bugged) performing so far above the fray and what did you think about the process that got him there? I personally haven't seen anything outside of his bugged state that makes me think he's head and shoulders above other top tier champs, in fact from what I've seen he's a step below as a champ.

It's not just about what content he can or can't do, and you're not going to see it by focusing on what he can't. It's within the data. What can he do, within the span of a Fight, that other Champs aren't capable of doing?
I haven't answered again because it's just neverending. I respond, people disagree, and the cycle continues. No other Champ ramps up that amount of Damage that quickly within a single Fight. It's not about him taking effort to ramp up and maintain Armor Breaks and time Rout. It's about what he's capable of that others aren't.
I've used him. I've seen others use him on YouTube. I have a Sig 200 in my Ally. I know what he can and can't do. The comment was that he was showing more than others in the data. That was about it. It really doesn't matter if I think he needs it or not. They evidently do, and it's not Rocket Science to see what they're looking at.

Destroyer · September 2019

I have a major rank up decision looming. For me the issue isn't the upcoming Cull adjustment specifically, although this is def part of it. It's the broader issue of obtaining a new champ via units or grinding, investing in game resources that were obtained via units or grinding and then Kabam using data that I will provide by playing with this champ to possibly adjust the champ downward without any way for me to get my wasted resources back.

So with all the uncertainty, I feel almost forced to rank up a "safe", older champ over a newly acquired champ that I would prefer to upgrade. I'd love to r5 Sunspot, but I would hate to waste the resources on him if the abilities that make him an an attractive r5 option for me end up tuned down. I don't think this is an unreasonable reaction considering where we are at now and without any further clarification from Kabam on how downgrades, no matter how slight, of Cull and future champs are going to be handled.

The side effect of this decision by Kabam is that not only am I not purchasing units for FGMCs, I also have no use resource money offers anymore because my acquisition of new champs is slowing to a crawl.

There is enough of a gambling element in this game. To expect me to gamble hard earned resources on a new champ and pray they aren't hit with a downgrade on top of everything else is just too much.

JesusBlack · September 2019

Cull obsidian için insanlar binlerce kredi harcadı ve para yatırdı. Arenada 70 milyon kasıldı o insanlar gece gündüz emek harcadı bunun karşılığını krediyle ve düşürme taşlarıyla veremezsin. Önce bir karakter çıkarıp sonra kafanıza göre bunu düşürmek sizin kalitesizliğinizden başka birşey değil. Sizin test ekibiniz yok mu ? Emeğe hiç mi saygınız yok. Bu arada logan kim ya collosus kim ? Hadi collosus buff attın durdurulamaz collosusa ne olacak ? Magneto varken buff bunlara mı atılır ?

RagamugginGunner · September 2019

Uncertainty is the key word. No, we haven't seen the changed yet but we've seen them nerf champs into the ground and call it balancing before so they don't have the trust of the community.And honestly, they haven't done enough to gain the trust of the community back.

Now every month people are going to be holding their breath to see if Kabam is gonna nerf the champ they spent the time and money and resources on. Keeping your players in fear of ranking champs is just a terrible way to run a game.

MetaphorUranium · September 2019

At this point, there's no chance I'm gonna grind or spend for a champ ever again. Kabam has become the used car salesmen of the gaming world, having perfected the art of baiting and switching. My apologies to any used car salesmen for this analogy. There are champs I've tried to get, ranked up, spent days' worth of hours learning and perfecting a play style, and figured out exactly where that champ excels. If that can change on a whim now, there's no reason to try to get certain champs, because the as-advertised description will soon become a distant memory of a half forgotten dream.

WillieB · September 2019

The player base is terrified simply because Kabaam thinking that Cull is game-breaking, when we players know he is far from it, let's us know they have no idea what makes an individual champion good, bad, great or game breaking. So any champion we pull from now forward we will be worried that it will be picked for the nerf hammer, because they don't truly understand what makes a champion truly good or bad.

MetaphorUranium · September 2019

Perhaps Kabam should provide the community with a detailed explanation for what makes a champion game breaking. Right now, I'm fairly certain it has more to do with a champ beating content Kabam intended to make money on, rather than actual OP mechanics.

For instance, She Hulk in her pre-nerf form was not so OP that she HAD to be nerfed. She was simply beating the 6.2 Champion boss that Kabam intended to make money on. I firmly believe that but for 6.2, She Hulk would never have been nerfed, and certainly not that instantaneously. Likewise, Archangel's neurotoxin expiry stun that worked against stun immune was nowhere near an OP mechanic, but suddenly he was changed when Thanos boss was getting one-shot.

Here, Cull must be beating some piece of end-game content for Kabam to be unhappy with him, because he's not OP. He's definitely god tier, but he's not OP when considering the entirety of the game.

gp87 · September 2019

It doesnt matter if we don’t take official respond on that subject.

We don’t forget and we will stay here waiting. We don’t forget.

otrankso · September 2019

I just pulled a 5* Cull i want to rank him to r5 but i can’t until the nerf is official. I don’t mind the nerf ( actually i do) but it would be better if the announcement came with changes so people can decide what to do with the champion

Dp12 · September 2019

The amount of spending which happened to get cull was ridiculous and now nerfing him is just outright stupidity. Maybe whalers should find a better game and money to invest...

Sugoi_Dubai · September 2019

The big problem with Cull is he is horrible in AW. No one and I mean no one in Master aw alliance uses him in AW. A player averages around 5 to 6 fights every aw. It takes that many fights to ramp him up, of course it is impossible to use him for all your fights because he has no immunities whatsoever. I have a 6 star r2 Cull, used him twice in aw offseason and never used him again.

The same thing in AQ, we play map 7 and I used him once in AQ and never again. His block proficiency is horrible and he takes so much damage from parrying or block in Map 7.

So have no idea how he is OP. I would be happy if I get a chance to rank him down, I regret ranking him actually.

I would be happy if they lessened his damage but increased his block proficiency and made him faster to ramp up. But nothing is communicated from Kabam. Cull might end up being a better character or worse but Kabam needs to keep us in the loop. This whole situation could have been avoided if their is any communication from their side.

Bpn88855 · September 2019

i pulled cull 3-4 weeks ago, ranked him to r4 at the same day when kabam notified us about nerf. i did rank up, in 20 minutes went to forum to read some news and saw this message about nerf! i was so angry about that. and you know what, for these past 4 weeks i did not used much cull as he is not good for most part of content. fully explored variant 3 for these 4 weeks, no use for hhim there, i am not using him in quests as he also not so good as u need to ramp him up spending revives and health pots, not using him at AW or AQ map5-6 as i have better champs for this content, not used him at boss rush 2. i know that when he has 10 charges he is very good, but you have to spend and ramp up him, so no idea why he needs nerf. he is already good as is. i hope for a rank down ticket for him if he will be nerfed too much

Leanbison · September 2019

Rank down tickets aren’t enough. We will need to compensated for the featured GMC crystals. You can’t put something on offer, then have it reviewed through the content creator program, and then change it. People spent a lot of money to get Cull as he was. Changing him will require monetary compensation. From now on we know that GMC’s aren’t a good option as you have stated that you will change whomever you want. However this wasn’t a stated policy at the time you sold us the Cull Obsidian featured GMC. I think there is still time for everyone at Kabam to take a step back and review this idea. It comes across as fraudulent to me.

CarpeDiem7886 · September 2019

The issue is this simple. They advertise something, they sell it for in game currency and real life dollars in some of their “early bundles”. Even if they lower Culls damage by 100 dps, no one spent money on that version, but we are forced to deal with it? If your car is defective you don’t eat that cost the dealership does. It’s not our fault the product wasn’t performing as intended, but we stand to lose money on something they decided to change? That’s the issue. If you want to make a champ better so people will buy him, go for it, but don’t make an already decent champ bad. Release the “data” and listen to our consensus as well. We play the game. We know what works and doesn’t. Or legit just hire KT1 lol

CarpeDiem7886 · September 2019

What I don’t understand is how KT1 has less time to test champs and finds all these unintended things? She-Hulk was claimed to be an anomaly and within a day a video was posted with like 6 other champs that had the same anomaly. How can one dude figure all this out? I’m assuming there’s a team of testers or QC guys? How can a finished product not be released? Maybe need tuning UP eventually based on the state of the game, but how down?

Upcoming Cull Obsidian and Ebony Maw Balance Changes

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