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Tos/ privacy polocy

2

Comments

  • DemonzfyreDemonzfyre Posts: 21,016 ★★★★★
    Jester123 wrote: »
    Shrimkins wrote: »
    you guys are confusing ToS with privacy policy. ToS has nothing to do with personal information and therefore has nothing to do with GDPR.

    ToS just lays out the terms that we (and kabam) must follow to continue to participate in their service. Aka, no account sharing, hacking, stealing, posting porn, ect, ect.

    I did put privacy polocy in the op

    *Policy.

    You keep referencing the ToS in everything you said. Clearly I overstated your brilliant legal mind.
  • ShrimkinsShrimkins Posts: 1,479 ★★★★
    Jester123 wrote: »
    Shrimkins wrote: »
    you guys are confusing ToS with privacy policy. ToS has nothing to do with personal information and therefore has nothing to do with GDPR.

    ToS just lays out the terms that we (and kabam) must follow to continue to participate in their service. Aka, no account sharing, hacking, stealing, posting porn, ect, ect.

    I did put privacy polocy in the op

    Then you post a picture of the ToS stating it has changed. I'm saying they are 2 different things. The Tos can change while the privacy policy stays the same and vice-versa.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,242 ★★★★★
    Sounds like you're just looking for a bone to pick.
    At least you let people know to read them.
  • DemonzfyreDemonzfyre Posts: 21,016 ★★★★★
    This thread needs to be shut down.
  • ShrimkinsShrimkins Posts: 1,479 ★★★★
    Jester123 wrote: »
    Demonzfyre wrote: »
    Jester123 wrote: »
    Shrimkins wrote: »
    you guys are confusing ToS with privacy policy. ToS has nothing to do with personal information and therefore has nothing to do with GDPR.

    ToS just lays out the terms that we (and kabam) must follow to continue to participate in their service. Aka, no account sharing, hacking, stealing, posting porn, ect, ect.

    I did put privacy polocy in the op

    *Policy.

    You keep referencing the ToS in everything you said. Clearly I overstated your brilliant legal mind.

    I never mentioned tos with out putting ..... / privacy
    The first picture was to show that they say we should read tos before playing and yet we had no idea they did change and the other pic was to show that they state “ they should inform us”

    The privacy policy doesn't say they should inform you.

    It just states, informing you of changes to ToS and/or Privacy policy as a reason for obtaining your personal information.

    as @Demonzfyre already showed, Kabam posting the updated ToS on their website for everyone to see already fulfills their requirement per their own ToS.

    This is not a GDPR issue. It has nothing to do with personal information.
  • ShrimkinsShrimkins Posts: 1,479 ★★★★
    Jester123 wrote: »
    Shrimkins wrote: »
    Jester123 wrote: »
    Demonzfyre wrote: »
    Jester123 wrote: »
    Shrimkins wrote: »
    you guys are confusing ToS with privacy policy. ToS has nothing to do with personal information and therefore has nothing to do with GDPR.

    ToS just lays out the terms that we (and kabam) must follow to continue to participate in their service. Aka, no account sharing, hacking, stealing, posting porn, ect, ect.

    I did put privacy polocy in the op

    *Policy.

    You keep referencing the ToS in everything you said. Clearly I overstated your brilliant legal mind.

    I never mentioned tos with out putting ..... / privacy
    The first picture was to show that they say we should read tos before playing and yet we had no idea they did change and the other pic was to show that they state “ they should inform us”

    The privacy policy doesn't say they should inform you.

    It just states, informing you of changes to ToS and/or Privacy policy as a reason for obtaining your personal information.

    as @Demonzfyre already showed, Kabam posting the updated ToS on their website for everyone to see already fulfills their requirement per their own ToS.

    This is not a GDPR issue. It has nothing to do with personal information.

    Lol the gdpr has everything to do with the handling of personal information

    ok now I know you're just trolling. No one can be this dense.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,659 Guardian
    JRock808 wrote: »
    OP is 100% correct.

    TOS are not legal contracts, but laws are law.

    That's false. Terms of Service agreements have been upheld in both the US and the EU as legally valid contracts. There is some disagreement as to the precise requirements for them to become legally binding but that's a technicality: if you do not agree to, or somehow invalidate the TOS then you no longer have the right to use the service. To the best of my knowledge, it has never been upheld anywhere that someone could invalidate the TOS of a service and then dictate to the service provider under what terms they would be required to offer service. If there's no valid contract to use the service, you can't use the service.

    I don't know where the myth that TOS are not valid contracts comes from, but I suspect people not familiar with the law are confusing arguments over whether a person *accepted* the terms of a TOS and arguments over whether the TOS is legally binding *after* a person legally accepts those terms. The former is heavily litigated. The latter is not.
    If the GDPR says you must send a notification when the TOS changes, then you must do it if you want to provide your service in those regions.

    As far as I'm aware, the GDPR does not say that. The GDPR mandates in part that users must affirmatively agree to the policy governing the collection and use of their private information. If *that* specifically changes, then the GDPR kicks in and the service provider must follow the affirmative requirements of the GDPR. But if contract terms change that do not alter the specified personal information collected or the specified usages for that information, the GDPR does not apply.

    On the surface, it looks like the Privacy policy was reorganized and sections added to clarify certain areas, including those affected by the GDPR. It does not look like the actual data collected has changed or the usage of that data. In fact, the largest difference in the policy seems to be the articulation of the rights EU citizens explicitly have under the GDPR which did not exist in previous versions. I also see a specific change I might have prompted when discussing the policy with Kabam which in net effect simply eliminates the potential for them to use personal information in one specific way, but doesn't add any use cases.

    Whether Kabam is required to re-affirm agreement to the policy when it is reworded but its terms are not materially altered, is a grey area of the GDPR as far as I'm aware.
  • DemonzfyreDemonzfyre Posts: 21,016 ★★★★★
    Jester123 wrote: »
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    JRock808 wrote: »
    OP is 100% correct.

    TOS are not legal contracts, but laws are law.

    That's false. Terms of Service agreements have been upheld in both the US and the EU as legally valid contracts. There is some disagreement as to the precise requirements for them to become legally binding but that's a technicality: if you do not agree to, or somehow invalidate the TOS then you no longer have the right to use the service. To the best of my knowledge, it has never been upheld anywhere that someone could invalidate the TOS of a service and then dictate to the service provider under what terms they would be required to offer service. If there's no valid contract to use the service, you can't use the service.

    I don't know where the myth that TOS are not valid contracts comes from, but I suspect people not familiar with the law are confusing arguments over whether a person *accepted* the terms of a TOS and arguments over whether the TOS is legally binding *after* a person legally accepts those terms. The former is heavily litigated. The latter is not.
    If the GDPR says you must send a notification when the TOS changes, then you must do it if you want to provide your service in those regions.

    As far as I'm aware, the GDPR does not say that. The GDPR mandates in part that users must affirmatively agree to the policy governing the collection and use of their private information. If *that* specifically changes, then the GDPR kicks in and the service provider must follow the affirmative requirements of the GDPR. But if contract terms change that do not alter the specified personal information collected or the specified usages for that information, the GDPR does not apply.

    On the surface, it looks like the Privacy policy was reorganized and sections added to clarify certain areas, including those affected by the GDPR. It does not look like the actual data collected has changed or the usage of that data. In fact, the largest difference in the policy seems to be the articulation of the rights EU citizens explicitly have under the GDPR which did not exist in previous versions. I also see a specific change I might have prompted when discussing the policy with Kabam which in net effect simply eliminates the potential for them to use personal information in one specific way, but doesn't add any use cases.

    Whether Kabam is required to re-affirm agreement to the policy when it is reworded but its terms are not materially altered, is a grey area of the GDPR as far as I'm aware.

    I agree with your comments and it is a very grey area, there have been some massive changes in the tos from the last one and that is not the privacy polocy that was there when I agreed to the “ GDPR “ option back in June 2018 so therefore we should have been informed and given the option again, for people outside of the uk/eu it’s not a thing they will be aware of but every time we open a page on a site we have to agree and that’s to protect our information. Kabam has no argument that the policy’s have changed since June 2018.
    As you have pointed out some areas are very grey that’s why I’m even more surprised they haven’t sent a generic message to us all.

    What massive changes are you talking about? You have yet to state that. Do you read the ToS and the privacy POLICY (since you can't spell the word) everyday to know there were changes made? If DNA is right (which he's usually pretty close) and it was just a structure reorganization then there wouldn't be a need for communication. Do you have a list of changes made to either the ToS or the P.P that shows there were changes made on January 3rd?

    Again, Kabam and it's legal department have been pretty solid. I highly doubt they have done anything wrong in this situation and you are making a huge deal out of nothing entirely.
  • Kabam LyraKabam Lyra Posts: 2,936 ★★★
    Hi all,

    We wanted to address your question with relation to the Terms of Service update on January 3. Please keep in mind that notice of the changes is given by updating the Terms of Service page showing the date, as you saw. In the rare situation when necessary to communicate any substantial material changes, additional notification may be sent through in-game or email.

    The changes made this time were about some re-wording of the Terms of Service and some re-ordering of paragraphs to make them easier and clearer to read and no material changes to policy were made. Thanks for your understanding!
  • DemonzfyreDemonzfyre Posts: 21,016 ★★★★★
    Kabam Lyra wrote: »
    Hi all,

    We wanted to address your question with relation to the Terms of Service update on January 3. Please keep in mind that notice of the changes is given by updating the Terms of Service page showing the date, as you saw. In the rare situation when necessary to communicate any substantial material changes, additional notification may be sent through in-game or email.

    The changes made this time were about some re-wording of the Terms of Service and some re-ordering of paragraphs to make them easier and clearer to read and no material changes to policy were made. Thanks for your understanding!

    @Jester123 you see. I called it early on in your thread. Nothing changed at all. Good luck with your witch hunt.
  • WayntosWayntos Posts: 592 ★★
    One thing this thread probably did, was it probably got people actually to look at the ToS kudos to you sir!
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,659 Guardian
    The previous privacy policy stated this regarding sharing information with third parties:
    When And How We May Share/Disclose Your Information With Third Parties
    We will only share your information (including personal information) with the following third parties or under the following circumstances or as otherwise described in this policy:

    1. Safety, Security, Cooperation With Law Enforcement, & Compliance With Legal Obligations We may disclose your information to third parties, including your personal information, if we, in our sole discretion, have a good faith belief that disclosure is: (1) permitted or required by law; (2) requested in connection with or relevant to a judicial, governmental or legal inquiry, investigation, order, or proceeding; (3) required or reasonably necessary pursuant to a valid subpoena, warrant or other legally valid inquiry or request; (4) reasonably necessary to enforce our Terms of Service, this Policy, or any other legal agreements; (5) required to detect, prevent, or otherwise address fraud, abuse, misuse, potential violations of law (or rule/regulation), and/or security or technical issues; or (6) required or reasonably necessary to protect against imminent harm to the rights, property or safety of Kabam, our users, employees, any minors, members of the public and/or our Websites and Services. We may also disclose information about you to our auditors or legal advisors in conjunction with accessing our disclosure obligations and/or rights under this Policy.

    2. Third Party Service Providers, Contractors or Agents We may share your information with third party companies that perform services on our behalf, including payment processing, order fulfillment, data analysis, marketing services, e-mail campaigns, hosting services, and customer service. While providing the services for us, these companies may access your personal information, and are required to use it solely as directed by us for the purpose of our requested service.

    3. Business Transfers, Sales or Mergers or Divestitures.In the event that Kabam undergoes a business transition, such as a merger, acquisition, corporate divestiture or dissolution (including bankruptcy), or a sale of all or a portion of its assets, including in connection with the sale or other transfer of a game, we may share, disclose or transfer all of your information, including personal information, to the successor organization in such transition.

    4.Business Partners. In conjunction with the development and running of our games and in connection with the offering of other games we may partner with third party developers and/or licensors to assist us in providing you with our services. We will share the information you provide us through your social network such as (1) your first and last name, (2) your profile picture or its URL, (3) your user identification number of the pertinent social network, which is linked to publicly available information such as name and profile picture (4) the login email you provided to the pertinent social network upon registration; and (5) game play information with these third parties, all so they may, among other things, facilitate the use of our service as well as contact you about other games and products they offer which may be of interest to you, provide you with service notifications and to solicit your feedback and input. If you do not wish to have this information shared please do not use our services. If you wish to no longer have your personal information used by our partners you may contact us at privacypolicy@kabam.com and we will facilitate your request to the partner.

    5. Promotions We may share your information in connection with any Promotion you enter on or through the Websites, as necessary to administer, market, sponsor, or fulfill the Promotion or as required by applicable laws, rules or regulations (for example, to provide winners’ lists or make required filings as appropriate) or in accordance with the applicable Official Rules of the Promotion/Sweepstakes you enter.

    6. With Your Permission. Additionally, if you opt-in or otherwise agree to have your information shared with a third party for marketing purposes, we will share your information with the third party (or third parties) in which case the third party’s use of your information is subject to the third party’s own privacy policy.

    7. Advertising of Third Party Products/Services. We may use and share with third party advertisers (and other third parties) certain Technical Information and/or Aggregate Information to show general demographic and preference information among Kabam users. We may also allow advertisers to collect Technical Information or Aggregate Information, which they may share with us, through the use of tracking technologies like cookies and web beacons. The information collected may be used to offer you targeted ad-selection and delivery in order to personalize your user experience by increasing the likelihood that advertisements for products and services you see will appeal to you, a practice known as behavioral advertising, and to undertake web analytics (i.e. to analyze traffic and other end user activity to improve your experience). To learn more about behavioral advertising or to opt-out of this type of advertising for participating ad networks, you can visit the Network Advertising Initiative website http://www.networkadvertising.org/managing/opt_out.asp If you are located in the European Union and would like to opt-out, please visit, http://www.youronlinechoices.eu/. Please note this does not opt you out of being served ads. You will continue to receive generic ads.

    8. Social Media Features Our Web site includes Social Media Features, such as the Facebook Like button. These Features may collect your IP address, which page you are visiting on our site, and may set a cookie to enable the Feature to function properly. Social Media Features are either hosted by a third party or hosted directly on our Site. Your interactions with these Features are governed by the privacy policy of the company providing it.

    9. Offer Walls Kabam games or their purchase pages may display an “offer wall” that may be hosted by a third party offer wall provider. The offer wall allows third party advertisers to provide virtual currency to users in exchange for interacting with an advertisement or for completing a marketing offer that may include signing up for an account with one of those advertisers. These offers are not controlled by or made by Kabam. These offers may be displayed to you based on certain technical information, such as your geographic area or anonymous demographic information. After clicking on one of these advertisements, you will no longer be on a site hosted by Kabam or a partnering Third Party Platform. To properly credit user accounts and to prevent fraud, a unique identifier will be shared with the offer wall provider. This identifier is used to ensure proper crediting of your account, prevent fraud or duplicate offers and to resolve any customer service inquiries that may arise. Once you complete an offer, you may then be returned to a Kabam Website or Service.

    The current privacy policy states this:
    HOW YOUR PERSONAL DATA IS SHARED
    We share your personal data with the following types of recipients:
    • Kabam affiliates in order to access the shared services available amongst the Kabam entities.
    • Third-party service providers. We work with third-party service providers to support us in making the Services available to you. These are services like cloud hosting, analytics or other technical tools, and player support services. These service providers only process your data as directed by us for the purpose of supporting and servicing the Kabam games that you are playing. We do not sell your personal information to third parties.
    • Competent law enforcement or regulatory authorities, government agencies, courts of law or other third parties. We may disclose your data or information about you in response to a request where we believe in good faith that we are under legal obligation, or legally permitted, to do so; or where we believe it is necessary:
    • to detect, prevent, and address fraud, violations of our terms or policies, or other harmful or illegal activity;
    • to protect ourselves such as establishing, exercising, or defending our legal rights (including our intellectual property rights and those of our licensors); or
    • to protect your vital interests or those of any other persons such as public safety.
    • Third parties in connection with a business transfer such as a merger or acquisition of any part of Kabam’s business, or a sale of all or a portion of Kabam’s assets to another company.

    Although the original version was more wordy, the two seem to articulate the same sharing. The original contained several sections referring to how *other* entities might collect information having nothing to do directly with Kabam, and those might have been edited out to avoid legal confusion or misrepresentation. In particular, both mention third parties in terms of a) third party service providers, b) business partners, c) acquiring companies, and d) law enforcement. The only new thing I see is "Kabam affiliates" in the new version. I'm not sure that's a legally material change.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,659 Guardian
    Drooped2 wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity @DNA3000 are you an actual lawyer?

    Sometimes you kinda talk like one

    I work adjacent to them a lot, and I used to work with them a lot. Mostly patent attorneys in the past, and regulatory ones these days.

    There's nothing worse than having to sit through legal seminars and not actually get to bill at attorney's rates.
  • DemonzfyreDemonzfyre Posts: 21,016 ★★★★★
    Jester123 wrote: »
    Demonzfyre wrote: »
    Kabam Lyra wrote: »
    Hi all,

    We wanted to address your question with relation to the Terms of Service update on January 3. Please keep in mind that notice of the changes is given by updating the Terms of Service page showing the date, as you saw. In the rare situation when necessary to communicate any substantial material changes, additional notification may be sent through in-game or email.

    The changes made this time were about some re-wording of the Terms of Service and some re-ordering of paragraphs to make them easier and clearer to read and no material changes to policy were made. Thanks for your understanding!

    @Jester123 you see. I called it early on in your thread. Nothing changed at all. Good luck with your witch hunt.

    I have actually been a bit naughty, in my defence I only wanted an answer to my question which I only have half as the privacy policy parts not been addressed and that seems to be where the problem is, as you argued I kind of played the game with you and maybe I shouldn’t have done but it seemed fun. I have already been in contact with the uk government department that looks after the GDPR they handle problems and prosecutions And I know already of several laws broken, I can’t go into them as this is an on going case, they take things very seriously ie them prosecuting Facebook and google so not a light thing at all.

    You cant spell policy. I doubt You actually know how to contact a goverment agency let alone know which laws were broke.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,659 Guardian
    Jester123 wrote: »
    It also contained names of companies that Kabam shared data and our personal data with

    All I know is that I had discussions directly with Kabam regarding their privacy policy in September and October of 2018, and at that time it did not contain such lists. I have copies saved from that period of time. To the best of my recollection, I never saw such lists in any version I looked at.

    You do have the right to request Kabam to explain why they made any changes to their privacy policy that are material to your personal data. If you think they used to do something they now don't, or told you something they now don't, you can request them to clarify using the contact information in the privacy policy. You also have the right to ask what information they collect about you, and who they shared that information with. I would exercise that right if you are concerned. The mods can't address legal questions directly, but Kabam's privacy department and legal department should be able to upon request.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,659 Guardian
    Jester123 wrote: »
    Demonzfyre wrote: »
    Kabam Lyra wrote: »
    Hi all,

    We wanted to address your question with relation to the Terms of Service update on January 3. Please keep in mind that notice of the changes is given by updating the Terms of Service page showing the date, as you saw. In the rare situation when necessary to communicate any substantial material changes, additional notification may be sent through in-game or email.

    The changes made this time were about some re-wording of the Terms of Service and some re-ordering of paragraphs to make them easier and clearer to read and no material changes to policy were made. Thanks for your understanding!

    @Jester123 you see. I called it early on in your thread. Nothing changed at all. Good luck with your witch hunt.

    I have actually been a bit naughty, in my defence I only wanted an answer to my question which I only have half as the privacy policy parts not been addressed and that seems to be where the problem is, as you argued I kind of played the game with you and maybe I shouldn’t have done but it seemed fun. I have already been in contact with the uk government department that looks after the GDPR they handle problems and prosecutions And I know already of several laws broken, I can’t go into them as this is an on going case, they take things very seriously ie them prosecuting Facebook and google so not a light thing at all.

    I find this unlikely for a lot of reasons. But the ICO is required to disclose their actions, so we don't have to take anyone's word for this. Whether they rule for you or against you, that will become public knowledge soon enough. And if we hear nothing at all, that too will say something.
This discussion has been closed.