Compensation for pilot victims

We faced a few of the piloting alliances this season. We lost.
Now they have been caught (good job kabam btw), where are the points and rewards we didn’t get because we faced a bunch of cheats??

Is this issue going to be addressed?

IMO the punishment isn’t good enough. They should be disqualified from the current aw season and victim alliances should be awarded the win along with any lost points and rewards

Comments

Demonzfyre

Theres no telling you would have won regardless so what are you expecting them to do?

DTMelodicMetal

Demonzfyre wrote: »

Theres no telling you would have won regardless so what are you expecting them to do?

Competitive sports competitions like the Olympics award wins/prizes to competitors that were next in line when winners are disqualified for cheating. Seems reasonable to consider doing the same for MCOC AWs.

unknown

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unknown

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Wooly

Demonzfyre wrote: »

Theres no telling you would have won regardless so what are you expecting them to do?

Your missing the point. By not getting the points/rewards the victims are punished as well

unknown

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MaRvEl_MoNsTeR

No BS, what about the guys in the ally’s that got hit and have been playing fair? We go from Masters to Plat 3 and will not be able to get back to masters because of a few bad people. Now those of us that have been playing fair also get ducked.

I do think the bans helped as we figured out who was cheating, but then after the first ban we had one more. How did he get bye? Got banned second round ok now we know. What’s done is done.

I however do not feel for the guys we fought in war. It’s not the pilots fault that you die 20-40 times. Nor the fact that you can’t take certain nodes down and leave nodes up at the end. So stop dying and you will be ok. No way should master / plat1 ally’s be leaving nodes up and then crying that they lost in war due to cheating.

LoPresti

MaRvEl_MoNsTeR wrote: »

No BS, what about the guys in the ally’s that got hit and have been playing fair? We go from Masters to Plat 3 and will not be able to get back to masters because of a few bad people. Now those of us that have been playing fair also get ducked.

I do think the bans helped as we figured out who was cheating, but then after the first ban we had one more. How did he get bye? Got banned second round ok now we know. What’s done is done.

I however do not feel for the guys we fought in war. It’s not the pilots fault that you die 20-40 times. Nor the fact that you can’t take certain nodes down and leave nodes up at the end. So stop dying and you will be ok. No way should master / plat1 ally’s be leaving nodes up and then crying that they lost in war due to cheating.

Easier said than done with all your 5/65 and 4/55's Godtier defenders... iron man and domino's everywhere. A plat 1 ally going against a plat 3 ally just isn't fair. The plat 1 allies have better rosters/defense and a lot more rank-up materials from all the season rewards, so the plat 3 ally already has to play 10x better in order to win. It's pretty narrow-minded to say: "oh well, just die a little less", when the odds are already stacked against you from the start.

The current system is very flawed

Demonzfyre

Wooly wrote: »

Demonzfyre wrote: »

Theres no telling you would have won regardless so what are you expecting them to do?

Your missing the point. By not getting the points/rewards the victims are punished as well

You dont lose to piloting. You lose because you died more than the other team or cant take down bosses. Yes its "cheating" but can you really say you won because of a pilot? Besides, you dont know to what extent they did pilot. What if it was just 1 node that wouldnt matter? What if it was from and incident from the start of season? We all know they dont make judgements right away and only after investigating. Thats reasons why there wont be any compensation. Just because they get docked, doesnt mean it was a result of fighting your alliance. It can take months to investigate.

Wooly

MaRvEl_MoNsTeR wrote: »

No BS, what about the guys in the ally’s that got hit and have been playing fair? We go from Masters to Plat 3 and will not be able to get back to masters because of a few bad people. Now those of us that have been playing fair also get ducked.

I do think the bans helped as we figured out who was cheating, but then after the first ban we had one more. How did he get bye? Got banned second round ok now we know. What’s done is done.

I however do not feel for the guys we fought in war. It’s not the pilots fault that you die 20-40 times. Nor the fact that you can’t take certain nodes down and leave nodes up at the end. So stop dying and you will be ok. No way should master / plat1 ally’s be leaving nodes up and then crying that they lost in war due to cheating.

We don’t die 20-30 times, however maybe your alliance would if not for the pilots. Isnt that the reason people pilot in the first place? To keep deaths to a minimum. Maybe someone In your alliance doesnt have the skills to take a node but gets piloted and the node comes down.

I feel for the non cheaters in the alliances that got docked and now hopefully the cheats have been kicked

unknown

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Repto23

So everyone seems to think we are losing from the pioleting but the problem happens when the higher alliance that was knocked down and takes on a lower alliance deatroys them. Obviously theyre better thats why they were in a different rank. So how is that fair? The problem is the unfair match ups that happen afterwards.

MaRvEl_MoNsTeR

LoPresti wrote: »

MaRvEl_MoNsTeR wrote: »

No BS, what about the guys in the ally’s that got hit and have been playing fair? We go from Masters to Plat 3 and will not be able to get back to masters because of a few bad people. Now those of us that have been playing fair also get ducked.

I do think the bans helped as we figured out who was cheating, but then after the first ban we had one more. How did he get bye? Got banned second round ok now we know. What’s done is done.

I however do not feel for the guys we fought in war. It’s not the pilots fault that you die 20-40 times. Nor the fact that you can’t take certain nodes down and leave nodes up at the end. So stop dying and you will be ok. No way should master / plat1 ally’s be leaving nodes up and then crying that they lost in war due to cheating.

Easier said than done with all your 5/65 and 4/55's Godtier defenders... iron man and domino's everywhere. A plat 1 ally going against a plat 3 ally just isn't fair. The plat 1 allies have better rosters/defense and a lot more rank-up materials from all the season rewards, so the plat 3 ally already has to play 10x better in order to win. It's pretty narrow-minded to say: "oh well, just die a little less", when the odds are already stacked against you from the start.

The current system is very flawed

Right...

Do rosters help, sure. But me having a Domino or whatever you die on, doesnt make me not dying to your defense my fault. That’s on you and your team. You should be ranking up for attack first and then defense.

Sending back up way before you have to, sending players on poison/ bleed nodes without an immune champ, sending players with 1 5* attacker and 2 3* synergy champs on hard lanes with no back up, all these noob mistakes are not pilots fault, that’s on you and your teams mangement.

Repto23

MaRvEl_MoNsTeR wrote: »

LoPresti wrote: »

MaRvEl_MoNsTeR wrote: »

No BS, what about the guys in the ally’s that got hit and have been playing fair? We go from Masters to Plat 3 and will not be able to get back to masters because of a few bad people. Now those of us that have been playing fair also get ducked.

I do think the bans helped as we figured out who was cheating, but then after the first ban we had one more. How did he get bye? Got banned second round ok now we know. What’s done is done.

I however do not feel for the guys we fought in war. It’s not the pilots fault that you die 20-40 times. Nor the fact that you can’t take certain nodes down and leave nodes up at the end. So stop dying and you will be ok. No way should master / plat1 ally’s be leaving nodes up and then crying that they lost in war due to cheating.

Easier said than done with all your 5/65 and 4/55's Godtier defenders... iron man and domino's everywhere. A plat 1 ally going against a plat 3 ally just isn't fair. The plat 1 allies have better rosters/defense and a lot more rank-up materials from all the season rewards, so the plat 3 ally already has to play 10x better in order to win. It's pretty narrow-minded to say: "oh well, just die a little less", when the odds are already stacked against you from the start.

The current system is very flawed

Right...

Do rosters help, sure. But me having a Domino or whatever you die on, doesnt make me not dying to your defense my fault. That’s on you and your team. You should be ranking up for attack first and then defense.

Sending back up way before you have to, sending players on poison/ bleed nodes without an immune champ, sending players with 1 5* attacker and 2 3* synergy champs on hard lanes with no back up, all these noob mistakes are not pilots fault, that’s on you and your teams mangement.

So you think its fair that someone who completed LoL should go up against people who are barely Uncollected? "Its not my fault you cant play, blah blah blah" thats why there is a ranked system to put you against players of similar skill that is being trashed because the better player are getting a punishment by making them play weaker alliances?

LegendJRG

Alliance that got hit in both waves is now 200k points above us again. How is this fair or just punishment? So if we face them again in the final war and they’re still cheating their asses off they get p2 and we stay p3(which they’ve been a big part in keeping us here)?

MaRvEl_MoNsTeR

Repto23 wrote: »

MaRvEl_MoNsTeR wrote: »

LoPresti wrote: »

MaRvEl_MoNsTeR wrote: »

No BS, what about the guys in the ally’s that got hit and have been playing fair? We go from Masters to Plat 3 and will not be able to get back to masters because of a few bad people. Now those of us that have been playing fair also get ducked.

I do think the bans helped as we figured out who was cheating, but then after the first ban we had one more. How did he get bye? Got banned second round ok now we know. What’s done is done.

I however do not feel for the guys we fought in war. It’s not the pilots fault that you die 20-40 times. Nor the fact that you can’t take certain nodes down and leave nodes up at the end. So stop dying and you will be ok. No way should master / plat1 ally’s be leaving nodes up and then crying that they lost in war due to cheating.

Easier said than done with all your 5/65 and 4/55's Godtier defenders... iron man and domino's everywhere. A plat 1 ally going against a plat 3 ally just isn't fair. The plat 1 allies have better rosters/defense and a lot more rank-up materials from all the season rewards, so the plat 3 ally already has to play 10x better in order to win. It's pretty narrow-minded to say: "oh well, just die a little less", when the odds are already stacked against you from the start.

The current system is very flawed

Right...

Do rosters help, sure. But me having a Domino or whatever you die on, doesnt make me not dying to your defense my fault. That’s on you and your team. You should be ranking up for attack first and then defense.

Sending back up way before you have to, sending players on poison/ bleed nodes without an immune champ, sending players with 1 5* attacker and 2 3* synergy champs on hard lanes with no back up, all these noob mistakes are not pilots fault, that’s on you and your teams mangement.

So you think its fair that someone who completed LoL should go up against people who are barely Uncollected? "Its not my fault you cant play, blah blah blah" thats why there is a ranked system to put you against players of similar skill that is being trashed because the better player are getting a punishment by making them play weaker alliances?

I don’t think I have faced anyone that is not at least uncollected, everyone’s rosters were good if not great with at least 2 r5’s if not 3. I would say that’s pretty good for them. Either way, they would have lost anyway.

For those that only have 4*, no r5 5*, and so on, yes that would would be a bad match up for them to face a true Master or Plat 1 ally. But even in this scenario it would be based on war match up and out of our control. So back on Kabam.

DTMelodicMetal

GluteusMaximus wrote: »

Tell that to the NCAA. The 2013 Michigan Wolverines might have something to say about that.

Not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me. Louisville won the NCAA Men's Basketball Championship that year and then had their title removed and awarded to Michigan because of the Rick Pitino controversy, so your comment supports my OP:

https://www.maizenbrew.com/2018/2/27/17054830/looking-back-at-the-2013-michigan-wolverines-basketball-national-championship-roster-Louisville

Demonzfyre wrote: »

You dont lose to piloting. You lose because you died more than the other team or cant take down bosses. Yes its "cheating" but can you really say you won because of a pilot? Besides, you dont know to what extent they did pilot. What if it was just 1 node that wouldnt matter? What if it was from and incident from the start of season? We all know they dont make judgements right away and only after investigating. Thats reasons why there wont be any compensation. Just because they get docked, doesnt mean it was a result of fighting your alliance. It can take months to investigate.

This is a similar flawed logic that other players have used to defend alliances who colluded and piloted to rank in master tier previous AW Seasons. Another example I've seen is when players have said "the result would've been the same". If you cheat, you should be disqualified. Everything else is irrelevant. And yes, players absolutely lose to piloting. The two ban waves in the past few weeks have clearly established that. I do agree that it can take Kabam months to collect enough evidence and data to properly investigate the extent of AW cheating. They have to be 100% certain they know exactly who has cheated and like the recent ban waves have shown us piloting was still very common in platinum 3 - master alliances. These and other things make immediate compensation difficult.

There is a way that Kabam could possibly show players that months of unfair AW matchups was an unforeseen consequence of their attempt to clean up Alliance War. Reward players who have never had a terms of service violation in-game resources that are generally associated with AW Season rank rewards. Kabam has only punished players who violate TOS. Behavior theory states that punishment reduces behavior while reinforcement increases behavior and that reinforcement is more effective than punishment with molding desirable behaviors. Giving players incentive to not break TOS is something that has yet to be tried, so far punishing players after they break TOS has been the lone approach on Kabam's part. Maybe it's time to try something different?

Repto23

@MaRvEl_MoNsTeR thats all i was trying to say but its only worse down the line because master to platinum or a gold to a silver and so on the gaps become greater. Therefore i find kabams logic flawed.

Liss_Bliss_

DTMelodicMetal wrote: »

Demonzfyre wrote: »

Theres no telling you would have won regardless so what are you expecting them to do?

Competitive sports competitions like the Olympics award wins/prizes to competitors that were next in line when winners are disqualified for cheating. Seems reasonable to consider doing the same for MCOC AWs.

GluteusMaximus wrote: »

DTMelodicMetal wrote: »

Demonzfyre wrote: »

Theres no telling you would have won regardless so what are you expecting them to do?

Competitive sports competitions like the Olympics award wins/prizes to competitors that were next in line when winners are disqualified for cheating. Seems reasonable to consider doing the same for MCOC AWs.

Tell that to the NCAA. The 2013 Michigan Wolverines might have something to say about that.

https://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2018/2/20/17032636/what-does-it-mean-when-the-ncaa-vacates-wins

Do other teams get added wins?

No, but they do keep the losses. While it’s funny for every team that lost to, for instance, that 2013 Louisville national title team to say that the game didn’t happen, it did. The NCAA upholds the loss on the losers’ record, but not the win on the winners’ record when a game is vacated.

DTMelodicMetal

@Liss_Bliss_ Thanks for correcting me. I'm not as familiar with NCAA policy as Olympic policy. Olympic history goes back to 8th century BC, though the 1st modern day Olympics was held 12 years before the creation of the NCAA. IMO sports competitions on international levels hold more meaning than national sports competitions, but I can't speak on behalf of others:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/40746615

GroundedWisdom

I don't agree with benefitting from someone else's rule-breaking. You can't award a Win because the other team cheated. Not within this system. In both cases, Allies aren't earning Rewards.

Jeramy6815

We got docked and one person banned and he wasn’t even piloting. He had path 8 which is one of the easiest paths and still would take a KO. We climbed up to masters to only get hit by the second wave with no reason givin. Nothing said to the leader or anyone. Just one guy couldn’t log in. We haven’t lost a war this season and let me tell it’s not because of one guy. Now we dropped to p2 facing P3 and Gold 1 allies and it’s not our fault nor do we want to steam roll them. Don’t blame it on us because Kabam gives us no info of why we were docked. So we will go through this season undefeated and 29 of us definitely deserve masters and the 1 we have no idea about. So don’t blame the 29 people that spend,grind, and practice their way to the top when Kabam brings them down to a lower level.

DTMelodicMetal

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

I don't agree with benefitting from someone else's rule-breaking. You can't award a Win because the other team cheated. Not within this system. In both cases, Allies aren't earning Rewards.

The system would benefit from being updated. Players will continue to be justifiably bitter when cheaters get minor setbacks compared to honest players potentially receiving AW disadvantages in spite of not violating TOS. A cost-benefit analysis of a) cheat and don't get caught and get better rewards, b) cheat and get caught and get penalized with minor setbacks, c) don't cheat and possibly get matched with much stronger alliances who cheated potentially favors cheating over not cheating. At least professional athletes who cheat still play their own sports, that can't be said about MCOC players who've received rewards they didn't earn because they piloted or shared accounts.

DTMelodicMetal

Jeramy6815 wrote: »

So we will go through this season undefeated and 29 of us definitely deserve masters and the 1 we have no idea about. So don’t blame the 29 people that spend,grind, and practice their way to the top when Kabam brings them down to a lower level.

Another reason the system should be updated. An outdated privacy policy does not work well with newly enforced penalties for and methods of detecting account sharing.

LeNoirFaineant

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

I don't agree with benefitting from someone else's rule-breaking. You can't award a Win because the other team cheated. Not within this system. In both cases, Allies aren't earning Rewards.

@GroundedWisdom lmao you always post nonsense about what they "can't do". They freaking manually adjusted That One Certain Alliance's score after season one (because they were so brave and honest lol). They can do whatever they want. Awarding victory for opponents of cheaters in competition is pretty standard. It's obvious that Kabam isn't going to do it. But it's not because "You can't award a Win...Not within this system." That's like saying they won't because they won't.

GroundedWisdom

LeNoirFaineant wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

I don't agree with benefitting from someone else's rule-breaking. You can't award a Win because the other team cheated. Not within this system. In both cases, Allies aren't earning Rewards.

@GroundedWisdom lmao you always post nonsense about what they "can't do". They freaking manually adjusted That One Certain Alliance's score after season one (because they were so brave and honest lol). They can do whatever they want. Awarding victory for opponents of cheaters in competition is pretty standard. It's obvious that Kabam isn't going to do it. But it's not because "You can't award a Win...Not within this system." That's like saying they won't because they won't.

Not sure what standard you're referring to, but in competitions designed this way, you cannot default Wins. Not when there's a Ranking system based on Points. Nor is it fair for an Alliance to default Wins. They can't determine that an Alliance would have won had the opposition not cheated. Rewards are based on performance. What would the reaction be if an Alliance defaulted its way to the top? I'm assuming people would be in an uproar. There's no reward for following the rules, other than following the rules.

Thinkjerm

I do think the bans helped as we figured out who was cheating, but then after the first ban we had one more. How did he get bye? Got banned second round ok now we know. What’s done is done.

I however do not feel for the guys we fought in war. It’s not the pilots fault

Right...

Do rosters help, sure. But me having a Domino or whatever you die on, doesnt make me not dying to your defense my fault. That’s on you and your team. You should be ranking up for attack first and then defense.

[/quote]

Put it this way, these master class teams cheated and are now going against weaker alliances.
If a pro boxer like canelo or mayweather get caught cheating do they put them up against amateurs? No. That would be..idk, unfair. That’s what is happening and by dropping all of these high tier alliances to the lower ones it’s messing with their progress in the game, giving them guaranteed losses instead of fair fights. Anybody saying otherwise is backwards lol. You can tell the difference between a loss and a slaughter.
Our alliance has had its fair share of losses but not 3 in a row where I’m facing 3 IMIW 5*s all rank 4. Cmon now.

LeNoirFaineant

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

LeNoirFaineant wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

I don't agree with benefitting from someone else's rule-breaking. You can't award a Win because the other team cheated. Not within this system. In both cases, Allies aren't earning Rewards.

@GroundedWisdom lmao you always post nonsense about what they "can't do". They freaking manually adjusted That One Certain Alliance's score after season one (because they were so brave and honest lol). They can do whatever they want. Awarding victory for opponents of cheaters in competition is pretty standard. It's obvious that Kabam isn't going to do it. But it's not because "You can't award a Win...Not within this system." That's like saying they won't because they won't.

Not sure what standard you're referring to, but in competitions designed this way, you cannot default Wins. Not when there's a Ranking system based on Points. Nor is it fair for an Alliance to default Wins. They can't determine that an Alliance would have won had the opposition not cheated. Rewards are based on performance. What would the reaction be if an Alliance defaulted its way to the top? I'm assuming people would be in an uproar. There's no reward for following the rules, other than following the rules.

Determining whether a team would've won isn't relevant. When two teams match up and one cheats the other one wins. It's very simple. I agree we can't figure out how many points on individual fights ought to be awarded. Not a problem. Simply award the victory points and the war rating points. It wouldn't be perfect but it would be better than what we are doing currently. Also we should stop dropping the cheaters down so they can climb back up for easy points by destroying lower alliances. If I set out to choose the worst possible way of handling cheaters in alliance war I'm not sure I could do a better job than the current system.

GroundedWisdom

LeNoirFaineant wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

LeNoirFaineant wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

I don't agree with benefitting from someone else's rule-breaking. You can't award a Win because the other team cheated. Not within this system. In both cases, Allies aren't earning Rewards.

@GroundedWisdom lmao you always post nonsense about what they "can't do". They freaking manually adjusted That One Certain Alliance's score after season one (because they were so brave and honest lol). They can do whatever they want. Awarding victory for opponents of cheaters in competition is pretty standard. It's obvious that Kabam isn't going to do it. But it's not because "You can't award a Win...Not within this system." That's like saying they won't because they won't.

Not sure what standard you're referring to, but in competitions designed this way, you cannot default Wins. Not when there's a Ranking system based on Points. Nor is it fair for an Alliance to default Wins. They can't determine that an Alliance would have won had the opposition not cheated. Rewards are based on performance. What would the reaction be if an Alliance defaulted its way to the top? I'm assuming people would be in an uproar. There's no reward for following the rules, other than following the rules.

Determining whether a team would've won isn't relevant. When two teams match up and one cheats the other one wins. It's very simple. I agree we can't figure out how many points on individual fights ought to be awarded. Not a problem. Simply award the victory points and the war rating points. It wouldn't be perfect but it would be better than what we are doing currently. Also we should stop dropping the cheaters down so they can climb back up for easy points by destroying lower alliances. If I set out to choose the worst possible way of handling cheaters in alliance war I'm not sure I could do a better job than the current system.

The only thing that does is create a system that rewards people for encountering cheating, and would be easily exploited. Granted, Piloting is unfair, which is why it's against the rules. However, people aren't helpless victims. They're still playing and earning based on that, against other Human Beings. It's illegal, and I agree with actions taken because I don't take kindly to breaking the rules. However, I don't agree that it gives an automatic Win. People have to earn their Wins. One shortcut doesn't justify another.

LeNoirFaineant

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

LeNoirFaineant wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

LeNoirFaineant wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

I don't agree with benefitting from someone else's rule-breaking. You can't award a Win because the other team cheated. Not within this system. In both cases, Allies aren't earning Rewards.

@GroundedWisdom lmao you always post nonsense about what they "can't do". They freaking manually adjusted That One Certain Alliance's score after season one (because they were so brave and honest lol). They can do whatever they want. Awarding victory for opponents of cheaters in competition is pretty standard. It's obvious that Kabam isn't going to do it. But it's not because "You can't award a Win...Not within this system." That's like saying they won't because they won't.

Not sure what standard you're referring to, but in competitions designed this way, you cannot default Wins. Not when there's a Ranking system based on Points. Nor is it fair for an Alliance to default Wins. They can't determine that an Alliance would have won had the opposition not cheated. Rewards are based on performance. What would the reaction be if an Alliance defaulted its way to the top? I'm assuming people would be in an uproar. There's no reward for following the rules, other than following the rules.

Determining whether a team would've won isn't relevant. When two teams match up and one cheats the other one wins. It's very simple. I agree we can't figure out how many points on individual fights ought to be awarded. Not a problem. Simply award the victory points and the war rating points. It wouldn't be perfect but it would be better than what we are doing currently. Also we should stop dropping the cheaters down so they can climb back up for easy points by destroying lower alliances. If I set out to choose the worst possible way of handling cheaters in alliance war I'm not sure I could do a better job than the current system.

The only thing that does is create a system that rewards people for encountering cheating, and would be easily exploited. Granted, Piloting is unfair, which is why it's against the rules. However, people aren't helpless victims. They're still playing and earning based on that, against other Human Beings. It's illegal, and I agree with actions taken because I don't take kindly to breaking the rules. However, I don't agree that it gives an automatic Win. People have to earn their Wins. One shortcut doesn't justify another.

Easily exploited how? Groups collude by getting one group to pilot and then lose hoping that Kabam catches the pilots and awards the points? Doesn't seem like a great strategy. Not so sure this one is easily exploited. If they win the match against the piloting group it doesn't matter, so they would have to get them to pilot and lose. They already collude at the top in ways that award more points so I think you missed badly on the "easily exploited" angle. People aren't helpless victims inasmuch as they could still win in theory, but most alliances don't have 30 members that can hang with the 2-3 best of another similar alliance. I would be more OK getting screwed out of points by losing to cheaters if the punishment were an effective deterrent, but it isn't. Not everyone gets caught and those who do just face item free wars with mismatches as they climb their way back to decent rewards in plat 2-3. The system is broken.