Crystal Spinning and deception

First off, we know the premium crystals give out <1% 4* chance and probably <10% 3* chance.

Don't you think it is a bit deceptive when you do a spin (although we know it's fake), that 4* show up in the spin about 20% of the time and 3* about 30% of the time.... For a neebie, it might be deceiving.

Comments

Raganator

It's not deceptive when Kabam actually states and discloses that the animation means nothing. It is better classified as a tease.

GbSarkar

Raganator wrote: »

It's not deceptive when Kabam actually states and discloses that the animation means nothing. It is better classified as a tease.

Where do they state that in-game?

Thawnim

GbSarkar wrote: »

Raganator wrote: »

It's not deceptive when Kabam actually states and discloses that the animation means nothing. It is better classified as a tease.

Where do they state that in-game?

It's not stated in the game, but if you check the forums it has been mentioned extensively in here before that the animation is not indicative of the chance of obtaining a 4*. Also if you read the descriptions on the crystals in the game it does state there is a rare chance at a 3* or 4*. That tells me the chances of obtaining something other than a 2* are rather low, regardless of what the spinning may show.

Jackie2Cokes

Recorded crystals since January 2016.

Raganator

Jackie2Cokes wrote: »

Recorded crystals since January 2016.

That's awesome. I mean, the drop rate isn't awesome, but it's nice to have a large sample size with actual data. I'm guessing Kabam will delete the post.

Jackie2Cokes

Raganator wrote: »

Jackie2Cokes wrote: »

Recorded crystals since January 2016.

That's awesome. I mean, the drop rate isn't awesome, but it's nice to have a large sample size with actual data. I'm guessing Kabam will delete the post.

Thanks. It also includes any featured crystals I've bought that are supposed to have better odds (edit: the 2x ones).

I've only pulled one feature and that was Phoenix. I've been pretty good about not buying featured until this Spidey, bought 20, got 2 3* (not spidey) and no 4*

Thawnim

Two previous posts related to crystal spinning. The first post even discusses drop rates.
https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/24978#Comment_24978
https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/26288#Comment_26288

BTW, thanks @TenebrousTenebrific

GbSarkar

Thawnim wrote: »

GbSarkar wrote: »

Raganator wrote: »

It's not deceptive when Kabam actually states and discloses that the animation means nothing. It is better classified as a tease.

Where do they state that in-game?

It's not stated in the game, but if you check the forums it has been mentioned extensively in here before that the animation is not indicative of the chance of obtaining a 4*. Also if you read the descriptions on the crystals in the game it does state there is a rare chance at a 3* or 4*. That tells me the chances of obtaining something other than a 2* are rather low, regardless of what the spinning may show

And you expect *all* the players to visit the forums and read every mod post?
Also, why would I believe only what the crystal description says and ignore what I see with my own eyes during the spin animation? I could very well believe that the 4* drop rates are high since I see so many 4* during the spin animation and ignore the crystal description.
The crystal spin animation is definitely misleading (and deliberately so. It isn't so difficult to make the spin reel represent the actual odds of getting each champ) and makes new players believe that they have a higher chance of getting a 4* from a PHC than they actually have.

Thawnim

GbSarkar wrote: »

Thawnim wrote: »

GbSarkar wrote: »

Raganator wrote: »

It's not deceptive when Kabam actually states and discloses that the animation means nothing. It is better classified as a tease.

Where do they state that in-game?

It's not stated in the game, but if you check the forums it has been mentioned extensively in here before that the animation is not indicative of the chance of obtaining a 4*. Also if you read the descriptions on the crystals in the game it does state there is a rare chance at a 3* or 4*. That tells me the chances of obtaining something other than a 2* are rather low, regardless of what the spinning may show

And you expect *all* the players to visit the forums and read every mod post?
Also, why would I believe only what the crystal description says and ignore what I see with my own eyes during the spin animation? I could very well believe that the 4* drop rates are high since I see so many 4* during the spin animation and ignore the crystal description.
The crystal spin animation is definitely misleading (and deliberately so. It isn't so difficult to make the spin reel represent the actual odds of getting each champ) and makes new players believe that they have a higher chance of getting a 4* from a PHC than they actually have.

Considering that Kabam sends out messages in the game with links to the forums and also usually has it as a link on the main screen as one of the tiles then I say yes. If people want to not take the advise of the game team to visit the forums then it's there own lack of ownership that fails them. I don't spin the crystals by the way. I'd rather open 5 or 10 at a time and be done with it. It gives me more time to focus on doing productive things in the game instead of watching it spin, then come and gripe on the forums later.

RehctansBew

Never, ever, never ever spin a crystal. It's the equivalent of a slot machine. It plays on your emotion and feeds the brains addictive behavior. Just like watching a slot machine stop one shy of big money. Spinning gives you hope that next time will be different. It's completely random and as the numbers shown a very minute chance of pulling something good. No different than gambling as you pay for a CHANCE at a champion. Hence why so many people throw thousands of units at feature champs. Save yourself the pain and don't feed the habit. Just press OPEN.

New_Noob168

I'm not talking about drop rates...I'm referring to the fact that when you do a spin, I see lots and lots of 4*. To me and to a new guy, that could be deceving...Why not just show all 4* and it lands on a 2* then.....It's deceiving.

DNA3000

Raganator wrote: »

It's not deceptive when Kabam actually states and discloses that the animation means nothing. It is better classified as a tease.

There are three problems with this statement. The first is that it is just renaming what is known to be explicit psychological manipulation. Whether it is the deceptive kind of psychological manipulation or the teasing kind of psychological manipulation doesn't seem to be particularly important.

The second is that reading the game forums is not specified as a mandatory activity either in the game or its terms and conditions statement, and Kabam knows that, like most MMOs, only a tiny fraction of the players read the forums. Kabam cannot take the position that a visual game mechanic is countermanded by a statement made on the forums if they do not require players to read the forums.

The third is that most people do not have any intuitive command of probability. To state one thing and then visually imply something else about probability is knowingly intending to misdirect. That's why in the gaming industry (i.e. the gambling industry) this kind of say one thing but show something else animation is explicitly disallowed.

Raganator

DNA3000 wrote: »

Raganator wrote: »

It's not deceptive when Kabam actually states and discloses that the animation means nothing. It is better classified as a tease.

There are three problems with this statement. The first is that it is just renaming what is known to be explicit psychological manipulation. Whether it is the deceptive kind of psychological manipulation or the teasing kind of psychological manipulation doesn't seem to be particularly important.

The second is that reading the game forums is not specified as a mandatory activity either in the game or its terms and conditions statement, and Kabam knows that, like most MMOs, only a tiny fraction of the players read the forums. Kabam cannot take the position that a visual game mechanic is countermanded by a statement made on the forums if they do not require players to read the forums.

The third is that most people do not have any intuitive command of probability. To state one thing and then visually imply something else about probability is knowingly intending to misdirect. That's why in the gaming industry (i.e. the gambling industry) this kind of say one thing but show something else animation is explicitly disallowed.

I'm having a hard time finding the argument in your post:

1. Kabam is immoral for including more 4* in the reel that the actual probability of hitting a 4*. Therefore, Kabam has a moral obligation to make the reel animation a more accurate representation of probabilities.

2. Kabam is breaking the law, or as you say, involved in something that is "disallowed". In order words, Kabam is operating it's business in a way that breaks the law. If this is true (and I'm not saying it is not), please post a reference to the specific statute applicable to Kabam that would suggest that this is illegal.

I'm am legitimately curious in a non-**** way which of the above captures your point.

DNA3000

Raganator wrote: »

DNA3000 wrote: »

Raganator wrote: »

It's not deceptive when Kabam actually states and discloses that the animation means nothing. It is better classified as a tease.

There are three problems with this statement. The first is that it is just renaming what is known to be explicit psychological manipulation. Whether it is the deceptive kind of psychological manipulation or the teasing kind of psychological manipulation doesn't seem to be particularly important.

The second is that reading the game forums is not specified as a mandatory activity either in the game or its terms and conditions statement, and Kabam knows that, like most MMOs, only a tiny fraction of the players read the forums. Kabam cannot take the position that a visual game mechanic is countermanded by a statement made on the forums if they do not require players to read the forums.

The third is that most people do not have any intuitive command of probability. To state one thing and then visually imply something else about probability is knowingly intending to misdirect. That's why in the gaming industry (i.e. the gambling industry) this kind of say one thing but show something else animation is explicitly disallowed.

I'm having a hard time finding the argument in your post:

1. Kabam is immoral for including more 4* in the reel that the actual probability of hitting a 4*. Therefore, Kabam has a moral obligation to make the reel animation a more accurate representation of probabilities.

2. Kabam is breaking the law, or as you say, involved in something that is "disallowed". In order words, Kabam is operating it's business in a way that breaks the law. If this is true (and I'm not saying it is not), please post a reference to the specific statute applicable to Kabam that would suggest that this is illegal.

I'm am legitimately curious in a non-**** way which of the above captures your point.

Neither. You say Kabam's near-miss animations are not deceptive. I'm replying to explicitly state that saying the better term for them is "teasing" disguises the fact that when people say the animations are deceptive, they are attempting to convey the general sense that they are a deliberate attempt by Kabam to psychologically influence players into thinking the odds of getting a good reward are better than they actually are, which an accurate spinner would properly convey. However that is defined, it should be judged on those parameters.

Whether that kind of psychological manipulation is immoral or illegal is not a judgment I made. I only asserted that this misdirection on their part is deliberate and knowingly so.

Raganator

DNA3000 wrote: »

Neither. You say Kabam's near-miss animations are not deceptive. I'm replying to explicitly state that saying the better term for them is "teasing" disguises the fact that when people say the animations are deceptive, they are attempting to convey the general sense that they are a deliberate attempt by Kabam to psychologically influence players into thinking the odds of getting a good reward are better than they actually are, which an accurate spinner would properly convey. However that is defined, it should be judged on those parameters.

Whether that kind of psychological manipulation is immoral or illegal is not a judgment I made. I only asserted that this misdirection on their part is deliberate and knowingly so.

Some true, some false. You specifically stated that this type of activity is "explicitly disallowed" in the gaming industry. You now seem to be backing off that statement.

If you would like me to revise my original statement so as to not trigger your initial response, here you go:

"Kabam is not involved in any fraudulentl behavior by not accurately representing the probabilities of rolling a 4* champ. Rather, Kabam is involved in a common form of puffery (which some may call deception or psychological manipulation) to increase their sales of PHC."

DNA3000

Raganator wrote: »

DNA3000 wrote: »

Neither. You say Kabam's near-miss animations are not deceptive. I'm replying to explicitly state that saying the better term for them is "teasing" disguises the fact that when people say the animations are deceptive, they are attempting to convey the general sense that they are a deliberate attempt by Kabam to psychologically influence players into thinking the odds of getting a good reward are better than they actually are, which an accurate spinner would properly convey. However that is defined, it should be judged on those parameters.

Whether that kind of psychological manipulation is immoral or illegal is not a judgment I made. I only asserted that this misdirection on their part is deliberate and knowingly so.

Some true, some false. You specifically stated that this type of activity is "explicitly disallowed" in the gaming industry. You now seem to be backing off that statement.

If you would like me to revise my original statement so as to not trigger your initial response, here you go:

"Kabam is not involved in any fraudulentl behavior by not accurately representing the probabilities of rolling a 4* champ. Rather, Kabam is involved in a common form of puffery (which some may call deception or psychological manipulation) to increase their sales of PHC."

I explicitly stated that this type of activity is explicitly disallowed in the gaming industry, because this type of activity is explicitly disallowed in the gaming industry. I'm not sure why you accuse me of backing off that statement, but it is a statement of fact. The Nevada Gaming Commission, for example, decided in 1988 that computationally manipulated near-misses were misleading, and Rule 14.040 was amended to clarify that all gaming machines must display their gaming results in a non-misleading manner. Computationally injected near-misses were determined to be contrary to that rule. Other regulatory bodies have generally made similar rulings.

For example, see: http://articles.latimes.com/1989-06-04/news/mn-2501_1_slot-machines-international-game-technology-near-miss

Significant quote:

Ed Allen, chief of the staff's electronic services division, told the commission that every slot machine should allow a sophisticated player to gauge their chances of winning by counting the number of winning symbols appearing on the pay line in a large number of pulls of the lever, and then dividing to find the odds of a jackpot.

"With near-miss features, he can't do that," he said.

I cannot say this activity is illegal, because MCOC is not currently classified as a gaming system within the context of the gaming industry (which I explicitly noted is the term used to refer to the gambling industry, not the video games industry). But whether the activity would be generally considered misleading or not has nothing to do with the regulatory environment of the game, which makes the question of whether the same behavior is generally seen as misleading in other industries relevant.

If you're going to assert that my post was "some true some false" I would like to you to specifically state which part was false.

Billybob1971

The whole crystals system is based on the principles of the Japanese Gacha toy system if machines that offer a lot of reward initially, that reward becomes more and more addictive and tempts you to spend more to continue rewarding.

So, a lot of what you can win here is unobtanium. You literally stand no chance of dropping a 4* from a premium, you stand hardly any chance of dropping a 3. But you will get endless 2* dupes. Some crystals will tell you you have bought a greater chance, but a greater chance than 5% is not much greater.

Someone hacked the code years ago and found a Gacha directory, so it is all in there.

It is a form of gambling, but you do not HAVE to pay, that is how they get round it really.

What is wrong in my eyes is that if you pay money for packs, the crystals do not change their chance, you get the same crystals if you earn them or buy them.

I think if you pay, you should probably earn a greater chance of something good.

That might already happen, not sure, but using real money ought to give you a better chance, if not, then that to me is borderline gambling fraud

J9yy

I love Kabam

Uncle_Fatty_247

Just force open your crystals, spinning makes people sad

TheGamingLife

From the moment you click the spinning crystal, the game has already decided what you will get. What is on the reel is logically irrelevant because it is just for show. I recommend bulk opening crystals to avoid a let-down

Sungj

Jeez guys Kabam is a company and the reel showing lots of 4* is just helping sell a product. Its the same thing with other companies like Mcdonalds, Old Spice, Car Companies etc. Its not manipulation as in their description of the crystal it states a small chance of 4* champions and in the reel it clearly shows more 2 and 3* champions than 4* so they accurately represented their product. You wouldn't call a Mcdonald's Big Mac borderline illegal because it doesn't like the Burger in their TV commercial so why do the same with this