Changes due to DR?

Actual question, not trying to bash here. Have there been any champs or content released that is only functional due to diminishing returns being implemented? I ask because that was the statement after 12.0, they had to do it to open up possibilities and develop new content. If anybody can think of any examples, I'd appreciate it.

Comments

CoatHang3r

Any new champ or new syngery with stackable crit, crit damage, armor, etc since DR. Angela, Carnage, SMSE, and the release of past featured 5 stars.

I think though the focus should be champs that were left behind due to DR, like Elektra her SA was not properly adjusted for DR. When released Elektra's SA maxed at like +100% and now it caps at like 67% with the flat value and is further diminished with DR.

LocoMotives

I would argue that most of those new champs would have been more useful before DR and would actually increase champ variability which was another point of 12.0. I know that wasn't the question that I asked, and I agree about the casualties that weren't listed as 12.0 nerfs. Iron Fist and the caps come to mind as well as champs that lost value due to DR.

Mr_Otter

Many Crit Champions like Wolverine/X23 and basically anyone who relies on crits took a sizable hit

CoatHang3r

Sure they would have been more useful with thier current state and without DR everyone would. However they would not have been released in their current state and DR allowed for the their buffs to be initially more effective rather than needing to build up to them. When their buffs plateau dropping one does not have as much of a negative impact as pre DR.

Also it should be said that many other champs function they way they do due to DR since their buff effectiveness can be "capped" per champion rather than having to account for synergy stacking. Psylocke comes to mind, she is able to have huge crit damage right out of the gate rather than neededing to build synergies for it or having to pour signature stones into her SA to make it more effective.

Iron fist wasn't so much DR as it was flat value or changes to negative armor. Armor breaks below 0 armor became significantly less effective and no longer increased damage taken the way it used to.

And the caps got a huge adjustment after 12.0.1 I thought they had been brought back to very close thier pre DR levels with the significant block proficiency increases and changes to parry along with the removal of block penetration as a base stat.

Jon8299

Instead of starting another thread or sifting through old threads (because I have and still don't understand), I hope it's okay I ask here. What are Diminishing Returns and Challenger Rating? I ask because I took a break and came back a couple months ago and a lot has changed since the Cable or Hood arena. I read some info about CR but I don't think there is much on DR. If someone could explain or point me to the right direction I would appreciate it. Maybe the best would be to use champions as an example of pre and post DR and CR.

CoatHang3r

@Jon8299
http://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/2317/challenger-rating-explained#latest
http://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/32/diminishing-returns#latest
http://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/31/challenge-rating-single-ability-rank-and-you#latest

Primmer79

@Jon8299 I can talk a little in line if you have the app, Primmer79

Best way DR was described to me is in the sense of crit synergies, you can no longer add 7% to 7% and get 14%. thats the use of the +155 instead of %. Lets say +155 corresponds to +7%. +310 wouldnt be +14%. for sake of argument lets say 13%. Then, add another synergy. and it wouldnt be 21, 20, or 19%, but lets say 18. The more you put into the something the less increase it does. However, this isnt specific to synergies. This is a total number based off of the champions base stat, your masteries, synergies, boosts, etc. So, most people have the crit masteries maxed out, crit synergies don't have the same effect as they did because theyre only adding minimal gain. you get a DIMINISHED RETURN on what you put in.

CoatHang3r

Mr_Otter wrote: »

Many Crit Champions like Wolverine/X23 and basically anyone who relies on crit stacking took a hit

FTFY. Base stats were mostly adjusted for flat values and DR, what took a hit was anyone who's stats were improperly adjusted which are few and far between. It should also be noted that crits do much more damage after 12.0.1 which is why we see complaints about PS not being as effective.

Jon8299

@Primmer79 I don't have line but I understand what you're saying. How is the diminishing return calculated, I mean how did 14% become 13%. A short answer would suffice. Or has Kabam not relaesed the formula to it?

Also does Challenger Rating fit into it somehow?
I'll take a look at the links posted here though.

Primmer79

Challenger rating works independently, but their effects overlap.

For DR Kabam has not released the formula for it to my knowledge. I'm not sure on the rate it decreases, maybe someone who has done more research than I have can answer that. It's almost like you have to imagine a graph that increases at a certain amount, but as it approaches a maximum, say 1, itll never truly get there. You could theoretically, mathematically get to 0.999999999,but would never touch 1. that shape of a graph is how it works where as it increases, the rate of increase slows down the higher it goes

Jon8299

Alright I read the links and still have some questions. Where is this diagram to better illustrate Diminishing Returns? Is all of this why Black Widow hits so soft with her S2? It feels off to me. Have you been able to adjust to CR and DR or does something still feel off about champs you used all the time? Do new champs not have that feeling of something being off?

LocoMotives

Well if you didn't have the champ before, they can't feel "off" because you had no base line to judge against.

Primmer79

The game play is definitely different. I don't use BW at all, never had her duped. If i remember correctly though, she relies on crit and cruelty buffs during the specials? her individual crit rate/ crit damage might have been lowered during the 12.0 issues to compensate for the DR, and other changes they were making. See earlier point about crits and things being changed.

CR is supposedly unnoticeable for a r5 4* vs a r4 5* (i think thats what kabam said). Id have to disagree, I notice it slightly. My personal opinion is that it is noticeable and AQ is where its seen the most as prestige increases through the week. Day 1-2 just seems even abilities trigger more than days 4-5. CR was an attempt to prevent a 'god tier' champ 3* being able to clear 5* content. So couple both DR on your masteries and synergies with a CR that lowers stats, they dont work together, per se, but they affect the impact of your champs

Jon8299

Sorry I didn't word the last question properly

Jon8299

I meant to ask are new champs better at causing bleed and poison and other debuffs or is it pretty much even. I noticed there are No Bleed 1,2,3 anymore just bleed. Looked at Wolverine and Black Panther I'm sure they had more than just Bleed written. I guess that was some sort of psrsonal mastery boost for champs?

Jon8299

Thanks for the info and clarifications.