How are we supposed to fight defenders with unblockable, ranged attacks?

DPXFistheGOATDPXFistheGOAT Posts: 543 ★★
edited November 2019 in General Discussion
The reason I'm asking is because the growing number of unblockable RANGED specials is worrisome.

For a while, it wasn't much of an issue. The closest we had were the 2 Cyclops; who needed to maintain a combo meter to retain unblockable specials, and Loki, whose attacks do not have much distance.

So before, unblockable specials were much easier to control. Then, Fury and Captain Brie Larson came along. While technically still possible to avoid unblockable specials with precise timing, it does get quite difficult depending on circumstance. Fury's special 2; which tracks the opponent (like Dr. Strange's or Yondu's), and Brie's special 1; which spans the ENTIRE arena/platform, are practically unavoidable damage unless you are able to meticulously control their missions and binary mode respectively OR you can DEX (will be important later on).

Now, Brie and especially Fury, are challenging, albeit manageable, defenders with unique and enjoyable mechanics. However, the main issue I see is the trend they begun. Not long after, we received two ridiculous defenders in Mr. Fantastic and Dr. Doom; both having at least one special that spans the entire arena! And even worse, in certain side quests, Dr. Doom actually punishes anyone uses DEXTERITY. Which begs the question:

* How are you supposed to circumvent a special that cannot be blocked or dexed?

Since dexterity grants a buff, its detrimental to dash back during Doom's specials. And obviously, getting hit with specials isn't the smartest thing to do. So what are you even supposed to do? I get that you can bring a shock immune champ (not many choices there) or power control, but most power control champs drain, steal, or lock power via special 2 (except Visions, Doc Ock, and Psylocke who has reduced power gain).

Now, you can say "oh just git good", but think about Dr. Doom or Mr. Fantastic in nodes like "No Retreat", "Slashed Tires", "Spite", "Buffet" or any other nodes that punish dexterity. Now, place Doom in that node with a mostly-passive AI except with specials. Now you're practically at their mercy since you have no options other than to take damage. In other words:

* In the right node/champ combination, defenders with unblockable specials that span the entire arena can offer a matchup with literally no other strategy because all outcomes result in damage.

Unless you have Ghost/Hood or a max sig Daredevil, I don't see how you can one shot Doom on certain nodes (that we thankfully havent gotten). And I usually dont complain but Doom has the potential to be the most unfair and annoying defender ever due to lack of counters and strategies; something I've legitimately never encountered before.

TL:DR; A semi passive Dr. Doom on a "Slashed Tires"/"No Retreat" + "Spite"/"Buffet" + debuff immune node is a possible EQ node that scares me.
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Comments

  • Unless you have Ghost/Hood or a max sig Daredevil, I don't see how you can one shot Doom on certain nodes (that we thankfully havent gotten). And I usually dont complain but Doom has the potential to be the most unfair and annoying defender ever due to lack of counters and strategies; something I've legitimately never encountered before.

    It is hard to get too excited about this honestly, because this complaint has been lodged too many times and then eventually, sometimes very quickly, it is discovered to be overstating the issue. About two years ago it was "unavoidable damage" like, say, Iceman's cold snap. Or damage with no immunities or resistances, like Dormammu's degen. And then it was the "trend" of evade and autoblock champs.

    This seems to me to be more of a concern in competitive AW. In regular content if Kabam wants to make a fight difficult they already have all the tools necessary to do so. I seem to recall a case where War Machine showed up with unblockable specials and something like slashed tires or a similar node (but I can't recall precisely where or when). Kabam doesn't generate encounters randomly, so once this became possible, having more ways to do it doesn't make things any harder on the players.
  • DPXFistheGOATDPXFistheGOAT Posts: 543 ★★

    Well, you could use Ghost and just Phase through the attack. You could use Stark Spidey to evade. You could use a four star daredevil classic to fully evade all projectiles. You could use a power control champ so he can't launch specials, Dorm comes to mind as he doesn't need any specials to power control. You could use someone like Gwenpool who caps special damage. Nightcrawler is guaranteed to evade as long as you are dashing back. That's pretty much all I can think of. Don't knock Psylocke though, all you really need is one special one to completely shut down your opponents power

    Doom himself isnt unbeatable. My problem is the nodes you put him on can make him near unbeatable. Nightcrawler, for example, would get annihilated in a node that punishes buffs since he constantly gains them. Gwenpool can be damaged with DoT debuffs. Dormammu is not bad, but Doom doesnt trigger much buffs. None could reliably avoid damage from an unlockable ranged special. Only ones I can think of are Ghost/Hood and DD. And thats my problem; given the right nodes (say, Spite+Immunity+Slashed Tires), I dont see how he is even possible to one shot
  • TehsigzorzTehsigzorz Posts: 1,212 ★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Unless you have Ghost/Hood or a max sig Daredevil, I don't see how you can one shot Doom on certain nodes (that we thankfully havent gotten). And I usually dont complain but Doom has the potential to be the most unfair and annoying defender ever due to lack of counters and strategies; something I've legitimately never encountered before.

    It is hard to get too excited about this honestly, because this complaint has been lodged too many times and then eventually, sometimes very quickly, it is discovered to be overstating the issue. About two years ago it was "unavoidable damage" like, say, Iceman's cold snap. Or damage with no immunities or resistances, like Dormammu's degen. And then it was the "trend" of evade and autoblock champs.

    This seems to me to be more of a concern in competitive AW. In regular content if Kabam wants to make a fight difficult they already have all the tools necessary to do so. I seem to recall a case where War Machine showed up with unblockable specials and something like slashed tires or a similar node (but I can't recall precisely where or when). Kabam doesn't generate encounters randomly, so once this became possible, having more ways to do it doesn't make things any harder on the players.
    I believe the war machine sp1 unblockable was in a path in Act 5, I vividly remember doing 300 or so hits with my vision on that node and the highest combo I had ever dont till then.
  • DPXFistheGOATDPXFistheGOAT Posts: 543 ★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Unless you have Ghost/Hood or a max sig Daredevil, I don't see how you can one shot Doom on certain nodes (that we thankfully havent gotten). And I usually dont complain but Doom has the potential to be the most unfair and annoying defender ever due to lack of counters and strategies; something I've legitimately never encountered before.

    It is hard to get too excited about this honestly, because this complaint has been lodged too many times and then eventually, sometimes very quickly, it is discovered to be overstating the issue. About two years ago it was "unavoidable damage" like, say, Iceman's cold snap. Or damage with no immunities or resistances, like Dormammu's degen. And then it was the "trend" of evade and autoblock champs.

    This seems to me to be more of a concern in competitive AW. In regular content if Kabam wants to make a fight difficult they already have all the tools necessary to do so. I seem to recall a case where War Machine showed up with unblockable specials and something like slashed tires or a similar node (but I can't recall precisely where or when). Kabam doesn't generate encounters randomly, so once this became possible, having more ways to do it doesn't make things any harder on the players.
    "Kabam doesn't generate encounters randomly"

    That's kinda the bigger concern that bred this one if you will. This past EQ felt a bit more challenging than it has been for a while and the side event, which also felt more difficult than usual, definitely would not have been worth the difficulty had the rewards not been buffed. And the introduction of Doom is making me think Kabam is planning on pumping out content that's increasingly harder to plan against especially since we cant choose the champs we pull. I dont mind difficult content but once it reaches a point where no amount of skill can overcome a defender, then I start to get pretty irritated (the War Machine example would annoy me).

    And you might disagree, but I think Doom is different than Iceman/Dormammu as Doom has been TOO effective in much more common nodes and be far more difficult to control than the other 2. In fact, I noticed that in the side quests, Doom shows up much less frequently as the boss. I obviously cant confirm this, but it seems like Kabam themselves may have noticed how overtuned he was and dialed back his frequency as a boss.

    But dont think I want Doom permanently nerfed or anything. Im just really wary of this trend where new champs, when set as an EQ boss, are getting increasingly harder, and almost impossible, to strategize for without the right champs. My personal opinion is that the majority of champs should be useable, but not ideal, in quests (ie. Elsa Bloodstone on Epic last month was unique, easier to fight using AA or CB, but could be beaten by anyone). And Kabam's programmers, I'm sure, have a general idea of how powerful they want a champ/node combo to be before release. Which is why i wouldnt be surprised if, for whatever reason, monthly EQ/side quests bosses get purposefully more difficult to fight.

    You can argue that node placement, monthly EQ quests, and the "bigger picture" of increasing difficulty tied to dwindling reliance on skill/strategy/viable counters is something I shouldve emphasized more in the thread. I agree. But I also believe that Doom is unusually powerful as a defender (even compared to Iceman/Dormammu) and his introduction doubles as a signal for how much Kabam will ramp up the difficulty...and if the upcoming months end up like this month, then the prizes may not even be worth the grinds
  • ArcDeAngelusArcDeAngelus Posts: 209
    To quote DBZA - "DODGE"
    But in seriousness, most can be done with simple practice. CBs spec 2, Punishes specs, Fury specs can all be done and once you nail it the first time, the next becomes easier. It also helps to find other champs that have the same timing to help with practice. Such as HBs spec2 and Cables spec1 are the same timing, so recognising that gives you more chances to practice so you're more confident when it comes to AW or similar.
    Or Quake it
  • This past EQ felt a bit more challenging than it has been for a while

    This seems to be more a function of the fact that the last six months or so have been much easier than average, after months of players complaining that difficulty was much higher than average.

    But dont think I want Doom permanently nerfed or anything. Im just really wary of this trend where new champs, when set as an EQ boss, are getting increasingly harder, and almost impossible, to strategize for without the right champs.

    You said it yourself: the current EQ seems much more challenging than the last several months. So where's the trend in this case? Has the last six months showed any sort of consistent increase in boss difficulty? Before Doom, how far back do you have to go to find a boss of comparable difficulty, even if we adjust for its time? And in between those two, do you see a trend towards higher difficulty bosses in all the intervening months?

    The last time I can recall this much consternation about a problematic monthly boss or miniboss, it was probably Ebony Maw, and that was like six months ago. And in between we've had new champs like Thing and Human Torch, both of which were solid EQ bosses but both of which could be skilled past. I don't see a general trend towards new champions with problematic defender mechanics. If anything, I think the past year has seen fewer such situations than in the past. Less champs like The Champion focused on mechanical counters and more champs like Thing focused on skill-oriented counters. I haven't done a statistical analysis or anything, but that's my gut impression.
  • TehsigzorzTehsigzorz Posts: 1,212 ★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    This past EQ felt a bit more challenging than it has been for a while

    This seems to be more a function of the fact that the last six months or so have been much easier than average, after months of players complaining that difficulty was much higher than average.

    But dont think I want Doom permanently nerfed or anything. Im just really wary of this trend where new champs, when set as an EQ boss, are getting increasingly harder, and almost impossible, to strategize for without the right champs.

    You said it yourself: the current EQ seems much more challenging than the last several months. So where's the trend in this case? Has the last six months showed any sort of consistent increase in boss difficulty? Before Doom, how far back do you have to go to find a boss of comparable difficulty, even if we adjust for its time? And in between those two, do you see a trend towards higher difficulty bosses in all the intervening months?

    The last time I can recall this much consternation about a problematic monthly boss or miniboss, it was probably Ebony Maw, and that was like six months ago. And in between we've had new champs like Thing and Human Torch, both of which were solid EQ bosses but both of which could be skilled past. I don't see a general trend towards new champions with problematic defender mechanics. If anything, I think the past year has seen fewer such situations than in the past. Less champs like The Champion focused on mechanical counters and more champs like Thing focused on skill-oriented counters. I haven't done a statistical analysis or anything, but that's my gut impression.
    You are right, the last boss I remember needing a particular champion to counter was havoc(needing armor up or power drain) and lately there are defensive champs but you can always solo them with other champs if you have the skill or use a good counter to have a better time
  • DPXFistheGOATDPXFistheGOAT Posts: 543 ★★
    DNA3000 said:

    This past EQ felt a bit more challenging than it has been for a while

    This seems to be more a function of the fact that the last six months or so have been much easier than average, after months of players complaining that difficulty was much higher than average.

    But dont think I want Doom permanently nerfed or anything. Im just really wary of this trend where new champs, when set as an EQ boss, are getting increasingly harder, and almost impossible, to strategize for without the right champs.

    You said it yourself: the current EQ seems much more challenging than the last several months. So where's the trend in this case? Has the last six months showed any sort of consistent increase in boss difficulty? Before Doom, how far back do you have to go to find a boss of comparable difficulty, even if we adjust for its time? And in between those two, do you see a trend towards higher difficulty bosses in all the intervening months?

    The last time I can recall this much consternation about a problematic monthly boss or miniboss, it was probably Ebony Maw, and that was like six months ago. And in between we've had new champs like Thing and Human Torch, both of which were solid EQ bosses but both of which could be skilled past. I don't see a general trend towards new champions with problematic defender mechanics. If anything, I think the past year has seen fewer such situations than in the past. Less champs like The Champion focused on mechanical counters and more champs like Thing focused on skill-oriented counters. I haven't done a statistical analysis or anything, but that's my gut impression.

    To quote DBZA - "DODGE"
    But in seriousness, most can be done with simple practice. CBs spec 2, Punishes specs, Fury specs can all be done and once you nail it the first time, the next becomes easier. It also helps to find other champs that have the same timing to help with practice. Such as HBs spec2 and Cables spec1 are the same timing, so recognising that gives you more chances to practice so you're more confident when it comes to AW or similar.
    Or Quake it

    I mean, dexinting is not really the main issue. Its the fact that its your only option. And if you run into a node that punishes dexing, what can you even do?
  • DPXFistheGOATDPXFistheGOAT Posts: 543 ★★
    DNA3000 said:

    This past EQ felt a bit more challenging than it has been for a while

    This seems to be more a function of the fact that the last six months or so have been much easier than average, after months of players complaining that difficulty was much higher than average.

    But dont think I want Doom permanently nerfed or anything. Im just really wary of this trend where new champs, when set as an EQ boss, are getting increasingly harder, and almost impossible, to strategize for without the right champs.

    You said it yourself: the current EQ seems much more challenging than the last several months. So where's the trend in this case? Has the last six months showed any sort of consistent increase in boss difficulty? Before Doom, how far back do you have to go to find a boss of comparable difficulty, even if we adjust for its time? And in between those two, do you see a trend towards higher difficulty bosses in all the intervening months?

    The last time I can recall this much consternation about a problematic monthly boss or miniboss, it was probably Ebony Maw, and that was like six months ago. And in between we've had new champs like Thing and Human Torch, both of which were solid EQ bosses but both of which could be skilled past. I don't see a general trend towards new champions with problematic defender mechanics. If anything, I think the past year has seen fewer such situations than in the past. Less champs like The Champion focused on mechanical counters and more champs like Thing focused on skill-oriented counters. I haven't done a statistical analysis or anything, but that's my gut impression.
    * the current EQ seems much more challenging than the last several months. So where's the trend in this case?

    - I would say DEFENSIVELY, EQ bosses started to gradually improve around Korg. But around the introduction of Darkhawk or Thing is when the meta abruptly started to change. Theres obviously going to be outliers, but in the time between Korg and DH/Thing, victory felt attainable with the skill and a little planning. Anything from Thing onwards felt more dependent on specific counters and AI aggression. Skill was needed sure. But it sure felt like it was shifting towards luck. What Im saying is...we could see a new wave of EQ bosses like Doom who has very little counters; almost to the point that we HAVE to use one of only five or less direct counters or die. This doesnt surprise me considering rarity gates are also a way for Kabam to force us to usecertain champs (which we may not want to, have, or at a low rank).

    * Has the last six months showed any sort of consistent increase in boss difficulty?

    - yes

    * Before Doom, how far back do you have to go to find a boss of comparable difficulty, even if we adjust for its time?

    - I personally cant even remember anyone more dependent on dumb luck. Black Widow had double immune counters. Warlock had anyone who doesnt use DoT. Namor had power control. Etc. But this guy? For the main EQ, you just have to pray he throws his special 1 (which he is less likely to according to the node) or have god-like reflexes to dodge his sp2 first hit. Magik, Voodoo, and Psylocke usually cant even make it to their sp2 (or sp1 for Psy) and he's already near his special 3. For the side event, dexterity wont even save you since it punishes buffs (which is asinine). I guess you can use Slow/Petrify champs but which of them are immune to shock or block his special 2?

    * And in between those two, do you see a trend towards higher difficulty bosses in all the intervening months?

    - No...because he's a different beast

    Let me ask you this. What did you think of the SIDE event quest where the player is punished for triggering dexterity? Is that something you can overcome because of skill? Or do you need to get lucky with your roster? And finally, is Thing always "skill" based? Or does he require a little luck when passive?

    And all this...and I havent even mentioned Aura of Haazareth. This guy feels like a unit grab
  • DPXFistheGOATDPXFistheGOAT Posts: 543 ★★
    Goodness said:

    Having the dexterity mastery and fingers rly help

    That's kinda the argument though...if you run into a node that punishes dex, youre severely limited
  • Savio444Savio444 Posts: 1,781 ★★★★
    For me it’s just dooms sp2. Since it sometimes freezes mid special I always get hit on my device.
  • DPXFistheGOATDPXFistheGOAT Posts: 543 ★★

    DNA3000 said:

    This past EQ felt a bit more challenging than it has been for a while

    This seems to be more a function of the fact that the last six months or so have been much easier than average, after months of players complaining that difficulty was much higher than average.

    But dont think I want Doom permanently nerfed or anything. Im just really wary of this trend where new champs, when set as an EQ boss, are getting increasingly harder, and almost impossible, to strategize for without the right champs.

    You said it yourself: the current EQ seems much more challenging than the last several months. So where's the trend in this case? Has the last six months showed any sort of consistent increase in boss difficulty? Before Doom, how far back do you have to go to find a boss of comparable difficulty, even if we adjust for its time? And in between those two, do you see a trend towards higher difficulty bosses in all the intervening months?

    The last time I can recall this much consternation about a problematic monthly boss or miniboss, it was probably Ebony Maw, and that was like six months ago. And in between we've had new champs like Thing and Human Torch, both of which were solid EQ bosses but both of which could be skilled past. I don't see a general trend towards new champions with problematic defender mechanics. If anything, I think the past year has seen fewer such situations than in the past. Less champs like The Champion focused on mechanical counters and more champs like Thing focused on skill-oriented counters. I haven't done a statistical analysis or anything, but that's my gut impression.
    You are right, the last boss I remember needing a particular champion to counter was havoc(needing armor up or power drain) and lately there are defensive champs but you can always solo them with other champs if you have the skill or use a good counter to have a better time
    Yes. The argument doesnt imply "Doom is yet another champ, out of a huge lot, to ABSOLUTELY require niche counters". The argument implies that "Doom POTENTIALLY is one of the few spearheading a trend towards defensive champs that ABSOLUTELY require a niche counter"
  • KnucklezKnucklez Posts: 45
    edited November 2019
    I agree with the OP, and he raises some really good points.

    I’ll take it a step further and say I’ve never seen any fighting game on any platform which has unblockable attacks/damage of any kind. Combine that with other unavoidable damage, and it just frustrates players. This unblockable trend is starting to get annoying for many players.

    The more skill is replaced with luck in any game, the more players get frustrated and just leave the game.
  • PrezRio4PrezRio4 Posts: 69

    Well, you could use Ghost and just Phase through the attack. You could use Stark Spidey to evade. You could use a four star daredevil classic to fully evade all projectiles. You could use a power control champ so he can't launch specials, Dorm comes to mind as he doesn't need any specials to power control. You could use someone like Gwenpool who caps special damage. Nightcrawler is guaranteed to evade as long as you are dashing back. That's pretty much all I can think of. Don't knock Psylocke though, all you really need is one special one to completely shut down your opponents power

    Doom himself isnt unbeatable. My problem is the nodes you put him on can make him near unbeatable. Nightcrawler, for example, would get annihilated in a node that punishes buffs since he constantly gains them. Gwenpool can be damaged with DoT debuffs. Dormammu is not bad, but Doom doesnt trigger much buffs. None could reliably avoid damage from an unlockable ranged special. Only ones I can think of are Ghost/Hood and DD. And thats my problem; given the right nodes (say, Spite+Immunity+Slashed Tires), I dont see how he is even possible to one shot
    SpiderGwen and Quake don't agree with this post
  • dr_nish777dr_nish777 Posts: 231 ★★
    PrezRio4 said:

    Well, you could use Ghost and just Phase through the attack. You could use Stark Spidey to evade. You could use a four star daredevil classic to fully evade all projectiles. You could use a power control champ so he can't launch specials, Dorm comes to mind as he doesn't need any specials to power control. You could use someone like Gwenpool who caps special damage. Nightcrawler is guaranteed to evade as long as you are dashing back. That's pretty much all I can think of. Don't knock Psylocke though, all you really need is one special one to completely shut down your opponents power

    Doom himself isnt unbeatable. My problem is the nodes you put him on can make him near unbeatable. Nightcrawler, for example, would get annihilated in a node that punishes buffs since he constantly gains them. Gwenpool can be damaged with DoT debuffs. Dormammu is not bad, but Doom doesnt trigger much buffs. None could reliably avoid damage from an unlockable ranged special. Only ones I can think of are Ghost/Hood and DD. And thats my problem; given the right nodes (say, Spite+Immunity+Slashed Tires), I dont see how he is even possible to one shot
    SpiderGwen and Quake don't agree with this post
    PrezRio4 said:

    Well, you could use Ghost and just Phase through the attack. You could use Stark Spidey to evade. You could use a four star daredevil classic to fully evade all projectiles. You could use a power control champ so he can't launch specials, Dorm comes to mind as he doesn't need any specials to power control. You could use someone like Gwenpool who caps special damage. Nightcrawler is guaranteed to evade as long as you are dashing back. That's pretty much all I can think of. Don't knock Psylocke though, all you really need is one special one to completely shut down your opponents power

    Doom himself isnt unbeatable. My problem is the nodes you put him on can make him near unbeatable. Nightcrawler, for example, would get annihilated in a node that punishes buffs since he constantly gains them. Gwenpool can be damaged with DoT debuffs. Dormammu is not bad, but Doom doesnt trigger much buffs. None could reliably avoid damage from an unlockable ranged special. Only ones I can think of are Ghost/Hood and DD. And thats my problem; given the right nodes (say, Spite+Immunity+Slashed Tires), I dont see how he is even possible to one shot
    SpiderGwen and Quake don't agree with this post
    Haha and neither do ghost, gwenpool, starky and collector.
  • KaruseusKaruseus Posts: 395
    Say, use mordo or sinister?
  • Haji_SaabHaji_Saab Posts: 3,785 ★★★★★

    Goodness said:

    Having the dexterity mastery and fingers rly help

    That's kinda the argument though...if you run into a node that punishes dex, youre severely limited
    Hypothetically, there are many combinations of nodes and champions which are near impossible. But Kabam do not use them. Because contrary to popular belief, they do make the content do-able.

    P.S. Acid wash mysterio is an exception. :D
  • McocHPMcocHP Posts: 35
    edited November 2019
    quake - if you have the skill
    spidergwen if you don't.

    Personally i have no quake skill.

    Spidergwen 100% chance to evade unblockable specials.
    Top that up with her slow on heavy and her enervate. She is a beast and you don't need a high skill level for her.
  • Mathking13Mathking13 Posts: 877 ★★★
    is it just me, or does this feel familiar?
    The point of new challenges is to make you look into different options. It just gets really boring when everybody at the top is just using the same champion (*cough* Blade *cough*)
    These days, Kabam has been doing a very good job of designing fights that can be overcome with a lot of champions, but certain champions will find easier.
    For example with this Doom fight, just about any champion could deal with him. But there are definitely some champions that are better than others. Spider-Gwen and other Slow champions come to mind, as well as Shock Immune champions. But really anyone can deal with Doom. Just practice evading the special 1/2 (there are definitely harder specials to dodge), don't throw specials when his aura is on, and not really too much else.
    But yes I think with the transition into 2020, it would be in Kabam's best interest to look at new ways to make their challenges.
  • BendyBendy Posts: 835 ★★★
    U say buffet for doom yet theres void capiw quake ghost
  • IcsGrecIcsGrec Posts: 839 ★★★
    Use a champ that deactivates Doom's aura, and his specials are not unblockable anymore.
  • DPXFistheGOATDPXFistheGOAT Posts: 543 ★★
    edited November 2019
    PrezRio4 said:

    Well, you could use Ghost and just Phase through the attack. You could use Stark Spidey to evade. You could use a four star daredevil classic to fully evade all projectiles. You could use a power control champ so he can't launch specials, Dorm comes to mind as he doesn't need any specials to power control. You could use someone like Gwenpool who caps special damage. Nightcrawler is guaranteed to evade as long as you are dashing back. That's pretty much all I can think of. Don't knock Psylocke though, all you really need is one special one to completely shut down your opponents power

    Doom himself isnt unbeatable. My problem is the nodes you put him on can make him near unbeatable. Nightcrawler, for example, would get annihilated in a node that punishes buffs since he constantly gains them. Gwenpool can be damaged with DoT debuffs. Dormammu is not bad, but Doom doesnt trigger much buffs. None could reliably avoid damage from an unlockable ranged special. Only ones I can think of are Ghost/Hood and DD. And thats my problem; given the right nodes (say, Spite+Immunity+Slashed Tires), I dont see how he is even possible to one shot
    SpiderGwen and Quake don't agree with this post
    Haji_Saab said:

    Goodness said:

    Having the dexterity mastery and fingers rly help

    That's kinda the argument though...if you run into a node that punishes dex, youre severely limited
    Hypothetically, there are many combinations of nodes and champions which are near impossible. But Kabam do not use them. Because contrary to popular belief, they do make the content do-able.

    P.S. Acid wash mysterio is an exception. :D
    They put Doom on a Spite/EMP mod node in the side quests. They used to put him as boss every time but they lessened the frequency 1 week or so in. Im guessing stats told them Doom was a little too ridiculous for that.

    So its not like they werent PLANNING on milking us
  • DPXFistheGOATDPXFistheGOAT Posts: 543 ★★

    is it just me, or does this feel familiar?
    The point of new challenges is to make you look into different options. It just gets really boring when everybody at the top is just using the same champion (*cough* Blade *cough*)
    These days, Kabam has been doing a very good job of designing fights that can be overcome with a lot of champions, but certain champions will find easier.
    For example with this Doom fight, just about any champion could deal with him. But there are definitely some champions that are better than others. Spider-Gwen and other Slow champions come to mind, as well as Shock Immune champions. But really anyone can deal with Doom. Just practice evading the special 1/2 (there are definitely harder specials to dodge), don't throw specials when his aura is on, and not really too much else.
    But yes I think with the transition into 2020, it would be in Kabam's best interest to look at new ways to make their challenges.

    The issue isnt simply unblockable. Ive repeated this many times. The problem is the nodes Kabam can potentially (and already have btw) put this guy on. The EMP/Spite node comes to mind. This makes Slow debuffs essentially useless since triggering dex punishes you regardless. You're at the mercy of the AI's aggression, meaning if Doom doesnt throw his first 2 specials, youre eating a special 3. Even Ghost needs Hood for this fight since she also gains buffs frequently
  • DPXFistheGOATDPXFistheGOAT Posts: 543 ★★
    IcsGrec said:

    Use a champ that deactivates Doom's aura, and his specials are not unblockable anymore.

    Ok but what about EMP/Spite?
  • DPXFistheGOATDPXFistheGOAT Posts: 543 ★★
    edited November 2019

    PrezRio4 said:

    Well, you could use Ghost and just Phase through the attack. You could use Stark Spidey to evade. You could use a four star daredevil classic to fully evade all projectiles. You could use a power control champ so he can't launch specials, Dorm comes to mind as he doesn't need any specials to power control. You could use someone like Gwenpool who caps special damage. Nightcrawler is guaranteed to evade as long as you are dashing back. That's pretty much all I can think of. Don't knock Psylocke though, all you really need is one special one to completely shut down your opponents power

    Doom himself isnt unbeatable. My problem is the nodes you put him on can make him near unbeatable. Nightcrawler, for example, would get annihilated in a node that punishes buffs since he constantly gains them. Gwenpool can be damaged with DoT debuffs. Dormammu is not bad, but Doom doesnt trigger much buffs. None could reliably avoid damage from an unlockable ranged special. Only ones I can think of are Ghost/Hood and DD. And thats my problem; given the right nodes (say, Spite+Immunity+Slashed Tires), I dont see how he is even possible to one shot
    SpiderGwen and Quake don't agree with this post
    PrezRio4 said:

    Well, you could use Ghost and just Phase through the attack. You could use Stark Spidey to evade. You could use a four star daredevil classic to fully evade all projectiles. You could use a power control champ so he can't launch specials, Dorm comes to mind as he doesn't need any specials to power control. You could use someone like Gwenpool who caps special damage. Nightcrawler is guaranteed to evade as long as you are dashing back. That's pretty much all I can think of. Don't knock Psylocke though, all you really need is one special one to completely shut down your opponents power

    Doom himself isnt unbeatable. My problem is the nodes you put him on can make him near unbeatable. Nightcrawler, for example, would get annihilated in a node that punishes buffs since he constantly gains them. Gwenpool can be damaged with DoT debuffs. Dormammu is not bad, but Doom doesnt trigger much buffs. None could reliably avoid damage from an unlockable ranged special. Only ones I can think of are Ghost/Hood and DD. And thats my problem; given the right nodes (say, Spite+Immunity+Slashed Tires), I dont see how he is even possible to one shot
    SpiderGwen and Quake don't agree with this post
    Haha and neither do ghost, gwenpool, starky and collector.
    I....I mentioned Ghost. Her name is in the body of the post. And Collectors not even a playable champ lol
  • Silver_SagaSilver_Saga Posts: 180
    Savio444 said:

    For me it’s just dooms sp2. Since it sometimes freezes mid special I always get hit on my device.

    Exactly. Doom's SP2 wouldn't be so bad if I could just SEE what's happening in his corner of the screen, but the lag and flashes and s**t happening all at once makes his special 'unreadable', at least on my S8... I know I have to dex on hands up, elbows down, kamehameha, but I have no idea what he's doing cause I'm freaking blinded !
  • NerdNerdNerd1NerdNerdNerd1 Posts: 233

    The reason I'm asking is because the growing number of unblockable RANGED specials is worrisome.

    For a while, it wasn't much of an issue. The closest we had were the 2 Cyclops; who needed to maintain a combo meter to retain unblockable specials, and Loki, whose attacks do not have much distance.

    So before, unblockable specials were much easier to control. Then, Fury and Captain Brie Larson came along. While technically still possible to avoid unblockable specials with precise timing, it does get quite difficult depending on circumstance. Fury's special 2; which tracks the opponent (like Dr. Strange's or Yondu's), and Brie's special 1; which spans the ENTIRE arena/platform, are practically unavoidable damage unless you are able to meticulously control their missions and binary mode respectively OR you can DEX (will be important later on).

    Now, Brie and especially Fury, are challenging, albeit manageable, defenders with unique and enjoyable mechanics. However, the main issue I see is the trend they begun. Not long after, we received two ridiculous defenders in Mr. Fantastic and Dr. Doom; both having at least one special that spans the entire arena! And even worse, in certain side quests, Dr. Doom actually punishes anyone uses DEXTERITY. Which begs the question:

    * How are you supposed to circumvent a special that cannot be blocked or dexed?

    Since dexterity grants a buff, its detrimental to dash back during Doom's specials. And obviously, getting hit with specials isn't the smartest thing to do. So what are you even supposed to do? I get that you can bring a shock immune champ (not many choices there) or power control, but most power control champs drain, steal, or lock power via special 2 (except Visions, Doc Ock, and Psylocke who has reduced power gain).

    Now, you can say "oh just git good", but think about Dr. Doom or Mr. Fantastic in nodes like "No Retreat", "Slashed Tires", "Spite", "Buffet" or any other nodes that punish dexterity. Now, place Doom in that node with a mostly-passive AI except with specials. Now you're practically at their mercy since you have no options other than to take damage. In other words:

    * In the right node/champ combination, defenders with unblockable specials that span the entire arena can offer a matchup with literally no other strategy because all outcomes result in damage.

    Unless you have Ghost/Hood or a max sig Daredevil, I don't see how you can one shot Doom on certain nodes (that we thankfully havent gotten). And I usually dont complain but Doom has the potential to be the most unfair and annoying defender ever due to lack of counters and strategies; something I've legitimately never encountered before.

    TL:DR; A semi passive Dr. Doom on a "Slashed Tires"/"No Retreat" + "Spite"/"Buffet" + debuff immune node is a possible EQ node that scares me.

    Just get good at dodgin lmao, the only one who is even slightly hard is Doom sp2
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