Are 4 stars dead?

CammonRoCammonRo Posts: 377 ★★
edited August 2017 in General Discussion
Before 12.0 came out I played this game quite aggressively. Constantly grinding for champs in the arena, hitting all the quests, working with our alliance to tackle Map 6, chasing the T4C rank rewards, chasing prestige etc. etc. But after 12.0 came and eviscerated many champs we had worked so hard for like Doctor Strange, Black Widow, Thor, and Scarlet Witch, while introducing things like flat values, challenger rating and reduced crit rates, the game was no longer fun and everything seemed so pointless. I was so disgusted I almost quit the game entirely.

I did quit my alliance and just glided solo with occasional play - but then Kabam did some nice things. They rebuffed some of the champs they had attacked too harshly while giving out more rank down tickets along with some good mea culpa rewards, and I found myself softening. Plus I found I did miss the game. I love Marvel and I really love playing Marvel characters and I love how Kabam brings many of these Marvel characters to life. I eventually came back to a low key alliance and have been enjoying playing more casually - reduced pace, less commitment - determined I would not let this game consume my life like it had before.

But now comes the announcement of 6* champs. With the challenger rating system that is in place and relative to how 3* champs have become practically worthless with the current state of the game, I just don't see how the 4* champs will survive the coming onslaught. And make no mistake - these 4* champs were hard to come by. Grinding and spending to acquire and rank them - grinding arenas (sometimes just to awaken a champ you can never seem to dupe), hitting the solo events and special quests, acquiring shards, cat frags and sig stones, enduring the continual disappointment of bad pulls - rarely ever getting the champs you want, cursing yourself for buying the featured crystals AGAIN and pulling 2*s. Fighting the really hard content for valuable awakening gems and T4C. You guys know what I'm talking about. And now... it all now seems completely futile.

I'm about ready to hang the cleats up for good. It's not that I could never envision more powerful champs entering the game. But this just seems too soon and too reckless and frankly I just can't stomach the thought that my roster I've worked so hard for for 2 years is just going to become worthless. Is there any mode other than arenas where they might continue to have value? At the moment, I find myself flabbergasted anyone would even grind the arena now for them let alone spend the hours days and nights to put up the kinds of scores I see people putting.

What is the community consensus on this? Are 4* champs truly dead? I know there's no end game per se but I find I'm having a hard time understanding how the game can survive by perpetually diminishing the efforts of those who play it.

Comments

  • HAVOCHAVOC Posts: 74
    Long story short, about 2/3 of your 4* roster will only be good for obtaining 5* Shards from Dupes. If they're lvl99 then possible double 5* Shards.

    People will only rank 4*'s now if they don't have 5*'s to rank up

    6*'s are a long time away and I need to see implemention before I pass judgement.

    Hopefully 6*'s will mean I can R5 my 5*'s soon (^_^)
  • MarzGrooveMarzGroove Posts: 903 ★★★
    Mine are alive and well and say, "Hello!"
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 27,100 ★★★★★
    They're not dead. Far from it.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 27,100 ★★★★★
    They're dead for near end game players and end game players.

    Pretty hard to Grind without them.
  • Deadbyrd9Deadbyrd9 Posts: 3,460 ★★★★
    They aren't even close to dead. I still see plenty of them in aw and I'm in top 150. I have 2 4* on my aw attack team and 2 4* on my aq team. They are far from dead
  • CammonRoCammonRo Posts: 377 ★★
    HAVOC wrote: »
    Long story short, about 2/3 of your 4* roster will only be good for obtaining 5* Shards from Dupes. If they're lvl99 then possible double 5* Shards.

    People will only rank 4*'s now if they don't have 5*'s to rank up

    This is my fear and honestly doesn't excite me in the least. I ranked and awakened these champs to play with them not have them sit on the dustbin as shard generators like my 2* and 3*. Arena is OK for goofing around but the fights aren't as challenging. I kind of hoped to eventually rank up all my 4* with the goal of mixing things up in war and AQ but now I don't see any potential value/satisfaction in that. Especially since by the time that day could conceivably come they will be so worthless to me because I won't be able to realistically use them in AW or the final days of AQ when I'm facing buffed max 5* and 6* champions. Meanwhile with T4C being so precious - even now they will just collect dust.
  • Dexman1349Dexman1349 Posts: 3,060 ★★★★★
    edited August 2017
    4* champs will only fade for those already at end-game content, but they're already fading because those players have built 5* rosters.

    This is just going to make 4* fade more quickly for mid-game players. Beginners are still going to strive for 4* rosters until they can build a 5* group. At the current rate, 6* will still be a pipe-dream for quite a while to casual players.

    It will reduce the cutoffs for 4* champs because there will be fewer end-game players trying to "fill-out" their 4* rosters and will instead be focused more on featured and higher arenas.

    For the vast majority of players, 6* champs will not change how they play. The only way it will truly affect them is in Wars as they will be even further mis-matched against these elite alliances who abuse the system.
  • CammonRoCammonRo Posts: 377 ★★
    @DNA3000 thanks for your thoughtful post.

    In answer to why I might work at acquiring certain champs now - I'd say it's probably because they are beloved Marvel characters that I simply would like have in my roster. For instance, I know Gwenpool and Dr. Voodoo are considered god-tier but they frankly don't interest me. I pulled GP by accident from a PHC and DV from a 4* shard. However, I've spent resources chasing (and failing at getting) characters like Doc Ock, Green Goblin, Nebula etc. - even if they aren't the best in the game - just because they look awesome with great animations and seem to offer some different modes of play style. A lot of folks hate on characters like Phoenix and Beast but I find them challenging and fun and they make me think of the comics I used to read.

    The crazy lucky day I pulled Kang from a Greater Gifting crystal I was giddy as a schoolboy. Even if he's not "god-tier", I don't care. I still think he's awesome and I find him fun to play. But the thought of him becoming just dustbin material rankles.

    Meanwhile some of my favorite characters like Thor and Doctor Strange (who did once qualify as "god tier") have not only been neutered but Kabam has said they have no intentions of releasing them as 5*s which I don't like to hear. I guess I'll just wait and see how it plays out. If I can keep playing the game with the characters I love then great. But if they really do become useless well then - I just can't see a reason to keep playing.
  • LocoMotivesLocoMotives Posts: 1,200 ★★★
    edited August 2017
    There are a lot of 4* champs that have been obsolete for a while now to gamers playing at high levels, mostly because they have no utility and thus have no use. But until we are pulling and duping 5* champs at least twice a month, quality 4* champs will continue to matter.
  • If Kabaam makes you get them more frequently, which they which said they will....then yes 5 stars will be the new 4 star, and 4 stars the new 3 stars.

    The 2 week Uncollected crystal will help bring in more 5 stars faster for those who met the Collector paywall. And for everyone else, 5 star shards will be more readily available in monthly calender and monthly events. And most of all to those who will grind the new 5 star arenas.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 12,227 Guardian
    If Kabaam makes you get them more frequently, which they which said they will....then yes 5 stars will be the new 4 star, and 4 stars the new 3 stars.

    I'm never sure in what context people mean that. But I do know that this isn't true for all contexts in the same way, or on the same time scale.

    For example, if someone asks for a recommendation on how strong a roster they should have before tackling a particular piece of content, that recommendation won't change in general. If I'm saying it would be good to have a strong team of 4/40s, that recommendation won't be replaced with the introduction of 6* or even the availability of 5* champions.

    On the other hand, it is true that the difficulty of new content will creep upward. But that seems to be happening in a very slow manner. Master mode, for example, doesn't seem to be creeping up quickly. The addition of higher rank champions should *eventually* cause the hard content itself to also drift upward in difficulty, but I think it will be a very long time before content the average player could do with a 5/50 will require a 4/55 or higher. It will probably happen eventually, but not for at least a year or more.

    Then there's the question of what to rank up. Right now for me T4CC is still somewhat of a bottleneck. That cuts both ways. Right now I rank up all my 4* champs to at least 3/30, and when I have extra T4B I take them to 4/40. I rank up 5* to 2/35. I'm more thoughtful about ranking up to 5/50 or 3/45. And even if T2A becomes more plentiful I suspect they will still be constrained for me for a while. When 6* champs come out I will likely be in a position where I can't just treat 6* like I do 5* now and ditto for 4* because the costs will still be significantly higher. 6* champs won't become what 5* champs are now; maybe they will become what 5* champs were a year ago when it was extremely difficult for me to save up for even one of them. Scarcity means I have to think holistically about upgrades: I will probably never be able to simply trade one star rank for another because costs aren't symmetric that way.

    In terms of the long term story content, the champions won't change in value at all. We will just get stronger ones. 6* will never "become to new 5*" relative to that content because that content is largely constant. But I think one day 6* could become the new 5* in the sense of relative to monthly content whose difficulty changes over time and in the sense of relative to how I balance upgrade costs. But the timeframe for that to happen appears likely to be a very long time: maybe a year from now 6* champs become even a reasonable possibility, and they don't become comparable to how 5* champions are treated today until a year or more after that.

    I don't think most players will be able to treat 5* champs like they currently treat 4* champs, and ditto for 6* champs, on a timescale of anything less than years. And by most players, I'm thinking the bottom 99.9% of players.
  • DNA3000 wrote: »
    If Kabaam makes you get them more frequently, which they which said they will....then yes 5 stars will be the new 4 star, and 4 stars the new 3 stars.

    I'm never sure in what context people mean that. But I do know that this isn't true for all contexts in the same way, or on the same time scale.

    For example, if someone asks for a recommendation on how strong a roster they should have before tackling a particular piece of content, that recommendation won't change in general. If I'm saying it would be good to have a strong team of 4/40s, that recommendation won't be replaced with the introduction of 6* or even the availability of 5* champions.

    On the other hand, it is true that the difficulty of new content will creep upward. But that seems to be happening in a very slow manner. Master mode, for example, doesn't seem to be creeping up quickly. The addition of higher rank champions should *eventually* cause the hard content itself to also drift upward in difficulty, but I think it will be a very long time before content the average player could do with a 5/50 will require a 4/55 or higher. It will probably happen eventually, but not for at least a year or more.

    Then there's the question of what to rank up. Right now for me T4CC is still somewhat of a bottleneck.

    My answer was just a simple one. Maybe an over categorization, but to the point. As far as Story content, etc. goes, you are right unless they go back and make some things harder or insert 6 star opponents into it - but I doubt that is likely. 4 stars will always be useful to the things that were concurrent with their timeline of usefulness. Just like you could say the same thing about 3 stars and earlier Story content they could complete.

    But I'm not really getting into all of that, I'm more so thinking of future more difficult content which 4 stars will age out of because it is coming. And as for their usefulness, yes eventually they will just be additional arena fodder for most long term players, just like 3 stars are now. You won't place them in AW or use them in AQ. You won't use them in new content either. They will be *almost* exactly like 3 stars are now as far as usefulness (again - for long term players).

    And I don't think we are years away from that happening. They've already mentioned upgrade materials like T4 class cats and the like being more plentiful. People will have a full roster of 5 stars and they will be the new meta. That is mere months away, not years. I'd say 6 months or less but that all depends on Kabaam and how they bring these changes about making 5 stars more populous and T4 cats more plentiful. I'd like to know the timeline for all of that, I'm sure we all would.

    Until then, people should probably hold off on R5'ing more 4 star champs as in the next 3 months or so our rosters will be leaning more towards those changes. Nothing wrong with letting people know the truth about 4 stars now. Are they still even worth grinding for in the arena? That's debatable at this point.
  • I was wondering how kabam would use the worst concept every created , CHALLENGER RATING, and now its all too clear. 4* won't technically be useless, but they will be for the most part obsolete . You have 0 incentive to buiild your 4* star roster. Once you have a few which are capable of clearing act 4 and maybe some of act 5, you should shift all your resources to 5* and 6* champs.

    In the end I wouldn't be too upset about it. Gotta milk those whales while you can.
  • SaiyanSaiyan Posts: 492 ★★★
    edited August 2017
    Right now? No
    This time next year (as in 8/22/18)? Yes

    Edit: To add some context tho, champs like 4 star OG Vision may always be wanted (if he never gets to be a 5 or 6 stars) however how long can that really go on for? Would you rather use a 4 Star OG Vision for power control or say a 6 star Hawkeye? While Vision is the better power control, I'm not a fan of beating act 5.4 and taking 300+ hits every fight to win with the vision rather than the fraction the Hawkeye will take. Or rather say a year from now when more people not only have 6 stars but also 5/65 5 stars in AW, that same 4 star vision will be even harder to use (obviously this is only at VERY high levels of play I'm taking). Early and mid game players will be fine with 4's but how long will that last?

    Long story short, I think 4 stars WILL be dead and ALL will be dead also other than so very few of them (OG Vision, Thanos, Scarlet Witch, etc) and that's assuming Kabam never makes then 5 or 6 star champs along the way.
  • LewisTheLlamaLewisTheLlama Posts: 226 ★★★
    Far from it. I've 100% 5.2 with my 4 stars
  • Haji_SaabHaji_Saab Posts: 5,331 ★★★★★
    DefJ123 wrote: »
    4* are dead onnly if you get them ko. *shrugs*

    K.O. does not mean dead. Boxers do not die after K.O. Revive is like a bottle water / energy drink to get you back on your feet , not a necromancer raising the dead.

    Just thought I should correct this important information about 4*s.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 12,227 Guardian
    Slasherx44 wrote: »
    I was wondering how kabam would use the worst concept every created , CHALLENGER RATING, and now its all too clear. 4* won't technically be useless, but they will be for the most part obsolete . You have 0 incentive to buiild your 4* star roster. Once you have a few which are capable of clearing act 4 and maybe some of act 5, you should shift all your resources to 5* and 6* champs.

    In the end I wouldn't be too upset about it. Gotta milk those whales while you can.

    1. Although I'm on record as saying the challenge rating implementation itself was not good, Kabam didn't invent the concept. It has been around almost as long as MMOs have been around. City of Heroes implemented combat level scaling (which was referred to as the :purple patch) way back in 2004, and I'm not sure they were the first either. It has been reinvented and shown up in different forms in different MMOs since then.

    2, The precise mathematics of how challenge rating works has been posted and discussed to death. Anyone who actually wants to know how CR affects combat can easily calculate the effects, which are virtually always small. It can also easily be extrapolated to what the effects are going to be for any foreseeable challenge rating of 6* champions of different ranks. It is still relatively small in most cases.
  • Slasherx44Slasherx44 Posts: 20
    edited August 2017
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    Slasherx44 wrote: »
    I was wondering how kabam would use the worst concept every created , CHALLENGER RATING, and now its all too clear. 4* won't technically be useless, but they will be for the most part obsolete . You have 0 incentive to buiild your 4* star roster. Once you have a few which are capable of clearing act 4 and maybe some of act 5, you should shift all your resources to 5* and 6* champs.

    In the end I wouldn't be too upset about it. Gotta milk those whales while you can.

    1. Although I'm on record as saying the challenge rating implementation itself was not good, Kabam didn't invent the concept. It has been around almost as long as MMOs have been around. City of Heroes implemented combat level scaling (which was referred to as the :purple patch) way back in 2004, and I'm not sure they were the first either. It has been reinvented and shown up in different forms in different MMOs since then.

    2, The precise mathematics of how challenge rating works has been posted and discussed to death. Anyone who actually wants to know how CR affects combat can easily calculate the effects, which are virtually always small. It can also easily be extrapolated to what the effects are going to be for any foreseeable challenge rating of 6* champions of different ranks. It is still relatively small in most cases.

    Challenger rating is an inherently bad concept directly created to enhance the difficulty of content for those who do not have developed rosters. If someone is amazing at this game, they should not be punished for using a 3* star against a 5* star. It is completely counter intuitive, and as a general rule the player will always be on the wrong end of it. Who created the concept and how many games have CR is irrelevant.

    The introduction of 6* will EVENTUALLY make 4* feel like 3* as new content is created to reflect their inclusion into the game. Nonetheless, the reason people shouldn't care too much is because it will mostly affect the top 5% - 10%, battle of the whales 2018 :smile:
  • RoraRora Posts: 124
    4 star is the future
  • Maximus_SpankersonMaximus_Spankerson Posts: 447 ★★
    edited August 2017
    6*s are just wrong. There is simply no need for another rarity.

    Why not simply add another level to 5*s (have them max out at 6/75 rather than 5/65)?
  • VavasourVavasour Posts: 258
    Any champ below the highest level is a waste of resources for whales. That's why whales spend.
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