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Lose Yourself to the Abyss!

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    TehsigzorzTehsigzorz Posts: 1,233 ★★★★
    Will abyss have the same 'detours' as LoL. I think exploring it till 98% is really stressful and heartbreaking. Or you could just remove locked camera as it adds nthn to my experience(explored LoL earlier last year)
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    JosephPoerioJosephPoerio Posts: 269 ★★
    It does not say anywhere that the Skirmish and Warfare charges cannot be affected by AAR. Does this mean BW with the Quake synergy could effectively hit certain defenders without removing Skirmish charges? @Kabam Miike
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    Kenny292Kenny292 Posts: 536 ★★
    I really don’t understand the need for a damage cap. The skirmish/warfare charges put an emphasis on either finishing the fight or at least doing as much damage as you can within a certain amount of hits, the exact amount being a bit fluid based on multiple factors. Why gimp champs that can do big bursts of damage in a single hit?
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    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,797 Guardian
    Kenny292 said:

    I really don’t understand the need for a damage cap. The skirmish/warfare charges put an emphasis on either finishing the fight or at least doing as much damage as you can within a certain amount of hits, the exact amount being a bit fluid based on multiple factors. Why gimp champs that can do big bursts of damage in a single hit?

    The alternative is to balance the fights around the absolute best case burst damage attackers (and best ramp up attackers), probably by adding even more health, and then everything that isn't a best case burst damage or ramp up attacker becomes either significantly penalized relative to them or almost worthless.

    The 85k damage cap already lets you deal ten million points of damage in 120 hits. But if they have to factor in things like a Proxima with power boosts landing half a million points of damage with a special two attack, that's not going to be good news for almost everything else in the game.
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    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,797 Guardian

    You know, with all the damage caps, I have to wonder why Proxima existed in the first place. Seriously, we’re obviously never going to be allowed to do her full damage potential at this point, so why bother🤷🏻‍♂️

    There's three different answers to that question. The first one is that we don't know what future content will look like, and limits on content today aren't going to be the same on future content tomorrow. LoL has a 50k cap, Abyss has an 85k cap. Future content could have higher caps, commensurate with higher difficulty and stronger presumed players. You don't want to "pre-nerf" champions to cap out at the same levels as the content today, or else Proxima would have been designed to live under the 50k LoL cap and then be under the 85k Abyss cap.

    The second is that we do get to use those high burst damage effects in other content that doesn't have those caps. We do get content with high health and no cap because it doesn't have the same special difficulty circumstances of something like the Abyss. Variant missions don't have caps, for example.

    And the third is that you might get to use that damage in the Abyss itself. The damage cap is I believe a limit on damage taken, not damage dealt. That means if you are fighting something with high armor or resistances, the cap will (I believe) kick in after those take effect. If you land an attack that does 400k damage but the target has 50% resistances and armor, for example, it might only land for 200k, which then would get capped to 85k. But compared to something else that is normally landing for 100k and getting mitigated down to 50k, you're still doing more damage. I'm not sure if such mitigation levels exist in the Abyss, but they could. And if not there, then potentially in other content downstream.

    The caps actually allow the devs more freedom to give players champions with much higher capability, because they can selectively limit that capability in some places and allow it to function in others, and as content scales higher those champions can in effect scale up towards their higher limiting caps.
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    RockypantherxRockypantherx Posts: 3,900 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    You know, with all the damage caps, I have to wonder why Proxima existed in the first place. Seriously, we’re obviously never going to be allowed to do her full damage potential at this point, so why bother🤷🏻‍♂️

    There's three different answers to that question. The first one is that we don't know what future content will look like, and limits on content today aren't going to be the same on future content tomorrow. LoL has a 50k cap, Abyss has an 85k cap. Future content could have higher caps, commensurate with higher difficulty and stronger presumed players. You don't want to "pre-nerf" champions to cap out at the same levels as the content today, or else Proxima would have been designed to live under the 50k LoL cap and then be under the 85k Abyss cap.

    The second is that we do get to use those high burst damage effects in other content that doesn't have those caps. We do get content with high health and no cap because it doesn't have the same special difficulty circumstances of something like the Abyss. Variant missions don't have caps, for example.

    And the third is that you might get to use that damage in the Abyss itself. The damage cap is I believe a limit on damage taken, not damage dealt. That means if you are fighting something with high armor or resistances, the cap will (I believe) kick in after those take effect. If you land an attack that does 400k damage but the target has 50% resistances and armor, for example, it might only land for 200k, which then would get capped to 85k. But compared to something else that is normally landing for 100k and getting mitigated down to 50k, you're still doing more damage. I'm not sure if such mitigation levels exist in the Abyss, but they could. And if not there, then potentially in other content downstream.

    The caps actually allow the devs more freedom to give players champions with much higher capability, because they can selectively limit that capability in some places and allow it to function in others, and as content scales higher those champions can in effect scale up towards their higher limiting caps.
    I see your point but it feels like some of that damage could have been substituted for utility or sustainability. Big health pools like LOL and Abyss seem like they were made for her.

    Don’t get me wrong, I love her damage output but when you’ve got her dealing over 1 million on a SP3 you have to wonder if it was overkill
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    ECOMAECOMA Posts: 328 ★★
    Jaded said:

    Jberg14 said:

    Please tell me that isn’t one tier 5 Class Catalyst for one completion... should it be 1 tier 5 of every class??? Just like the Labyrinth of Legends in some shape or form?? Because the rewards definitely seem small compared to where we currently are in this game...

    Totally agree. It’s not even a choose your own t5cc. Completely random x3 smh.
    No 6* ultron, tiny amount of 6* sig stones.

    Damage caps and combo limits. This is just garbage.

    Not even about if you have the champs for it or not. It’s just dumb.
    Choose your own makes sense one of each class seems high off hand thats 6 r3 6 stars.

    Lol didnt offer 6 r5 5s in class cats
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    RagamugginGunnerRagamugginGunner Posts: 2,210 ★★★★★
    God I hate the locked camera.
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    RagamugginGunnerRagamugginGunner Posts: 2,210 ★★★★★

    I feel the rewards kept for completion as well as exploration looks horrible. Sorry to say but if you are keeping a content unearthy then the rewards should also feel that way. I already got negative vibes even before this content is out. Please try to make it worth the trouble and pain.

    Agreed. With a hit cap of 240 and the highest health pools ever it's gonna be extremely expensive.
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    JustapilgrimJustapilgrim Posts: 239 ★★
    Permanently unblockable and unstoppable.... what does that mean? Can the be nullified or staggered? Can cap IW remove the unstoppable?
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    ECOMAECOMA Posts: 328 ★★

    Permanently unblockable and unstoppable.... what does that mean? Can the be nullified or staggered? Can cap IW remove the unstoppable?

    permanant to me means it never goes away and csnt be removed
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    cyfercyfer Posts: 7
    @Kabam Miike if there is a bug in the game that lets people clear paths quickly, and some use that to clear off some of the content before it gets fixed, does that count as an exploit that they would get banned for?
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    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,797 Guardian
    Vdh2008 said:

    Here’s my sticking point:

    People say, this may take 2-4 YEARS to be explored by some summoners... that’s great and all, but by 2024 these rewards will be horse **** and we will (should) be getting rewards like this from other sources by that point.

    So what’s the point in making content that the Cavalier guys can’t complete for 2-4 years? I’m confused.

    I suspect the confusion comes from the word "may." For some people the Abyss might be so difficult that they won't be able to complete it until 6* resources become so plentiful that the rewards within it won't be special any more. But that's intentional, because that's the whole point of difficult content. Some players will be able to complete it earlier in their progress and in the evolution of the game, and their reward are resources that are relatively valuable at that point in time. Other players won't be able to do it until 6* resources are uncommon but farmable, and they will be able to build their rosters and skill level to the point where the Abyss rewards are still valuable, but no longer unique. And finally, some players simply won't be able to complete the Abyss until it starts to become redundant and the Abyss 2.0 is being contemplated. Labyrinth of Legends is actually approaching that point now.

    But that's the idea: the content's difficulty is such that it rewards you more, on a relative basis, the sooner you do it and the harder it is relative to your progress level. You could do Act 5 after you have a full complement of 5* and 6* champs at high ranks, but then its rewards will be trivial compared to your roster. Or you could try to push through with 4/40s in which case its rewards will be highly valuable to you at that moment in time. Or you could do it at any point in the middle. Most content is like that: the rewards are the same regardless of when you do it, but the relative value of those rewards depends on how early you do it, and thus how relatively difficult it is.

    Right now those rewards are huge. In two years I suspect they will still be valuable. In four years you might be basically correct in that they might be very pedestrian. But that represents the full range of all players that do difficult content at all. Some will be better rewarded than others depending on their strength and determination to complete the content. That's almost certainly intended.

    Note I'm not commenting on whether the difficulty level of the Abyss is "correct" or not. I have no idea and won't until it actually arrives. It could be fine, it could be horribly over the top. I'm only commenting on the general principle of making content that is so hard no one might be able to do it now, and many people won't be able to do it on any reasonable timeline. I don't think that's problematic for something that is supposed to be the most difficult content in the game when it is released.
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    RagamugginGunnerRagamugginGunner Posts: 2,210 ★★★★★

    A way to refresh or pause the skirmish and warfare charges would have been the perfect way to balance skill vs spending.

    Great idea. Something like intercepts add 10 hits to the combo or something like that. If you play perfectly you can solo the fights. As it loos now you won't be able to do that.
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    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,797 Guardian
    ECOMA said:

    Permanently unblockable and unstoppable.... what does that mean? Can the be nullified or staggered? Can cap IW remove the unstoppable?

    permanant to me means it never goes away and csnt be removed
    In general "permanent" means the effect does not expire. Some "permanent" effects can be nullified or otherwise removed. For example, I believe Colossus has abilities that confer permanent armor up buffs that don't expire, but they can be nullified.
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    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,797 Guardian

    A way to refresh or pause the skirmish and warfare charges would have been the perfect way to balance skill vs spending.

    Great idea. Something like intercepts add 10 hits to the combo or something like that. If you play perfectly you can solo the fights. As it loos now you won't be able to do that.
    In general I'm in favor of skill-based challenges over mechanical limiting challenges, but as the Abyss is supposed to be challenging not just to players of, say, my caliber but specifically a very very difficult challenge for even the most skilled players in the game, what skill challenge could we invent that would challenge them? Making skirmish charges refresh with intercepting is tantamount to making them practically not exist for top players.

    It is extremely difficult to think up a skill challenge that, say, mvincible can't do at all today but could learn to do in, say, a couple months of practice. To me, that's the only kind of skill challenge that would be acceptable for the Abyss when it comes to something like forestalling the effects of skirmish and warfare charges. If it doesn't challenge them in that way, then it isn't a challenge for those players it is just a reward for them to scoop up.
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    Jberg14Jberg14 Posts: 39
    The rewards are a joke... if you make content that is not skill based then ramp the rewards to make it appetizing... seriously a joke. Plus what’s up with the damage cap hit cap!??? That isn’t a skill it’s called empty your wallets and let greedy people win
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    BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 2,320 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Kenny292 said:

    I really don’t understand the need for a damage cap. The skirmish/warfare charges put an emphasis on either finishing the fight or at least doing as much damage as you can within a certain amount of hits, the exact amount being a bit fluid based on multiple factors. Why gimp champs that can do big bursts of damage in a single hit?

    The alternative is to balance the fights around the absolute best case burst damage attackers (and best ramp up attackers), probably by adding even more health, and then everything that isn't a best case burst damage or ramp up attacker becomes either significantly penalized relative to them or almost worthless.

    The 85k damage cap already lets you deal ten million points of damage in 120 hits. But if they have to factor in things like a Proxima with power boosts landing half a million points of damage with a special two attack, that's not going to be good news for almost everything else in the game.
    She can already do that. Proxima’s damage potential should be a factor in all content she’s eligible for already because Kabam is aware of her existence since they made her and in regular content, she gets off a max L2 and they die, if she had to get off 5 of them here, so what? Absent a method for meaningfully extending the number of hits per fight, you’re still looking at using the same high dps (dpi) champs. With limiting the number of interactions (not even just your clean hits, also your blocked hits and their clean hits), utility and ramp-up champs become revive champs and are made worthless. To me at least.

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    JadedJaded Posts: 5,476 ★★★★★
    ECOMA said:

    Jaded said:

    Jberg14 said:

    Please tell me that isn’t one tier 5 Class Catalyst for one completion... should it be 1 tier 5 of every class??? Just like the Labyrinth of Legends in some shape or form?? Because the rewards definitely seem small compared to where we currently are in this game...

    Totally agree. It’s not even a choose your own t5cc. Completely random x3 smh.
    No 6* ultron, tiny amount of 6* sig stones.

    Damage caps and combo limits. This is just garbage.

    Not even about if you have the champs for it or not. It’s just dumb.
    Choose your own makes sense one of each class seems high off hand thats 6 r3 6 stars.

    Lol didnt offer 6 r5 5s in class cats
    It offered enough t4cc to rank up whatever class you wanted 5*r4...rank 5 5* weren’t even close when LoL was released.
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    BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 2,320 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    A way to refresh or pause the skirmish and warfare charges would have been the perfect way to balance skill vs spending.

    Great idea. Something like intercepts add 10 hits to the combo or something like that. If you play perfectly you can solo the fights. As it loos now you won't be able to do that.
    In general I'm in favor of skill-based challenges over mechanical limiting challenges, but as the Abyss is supposed to be challenging not just to players of, say, my caliber but specifically a very very difficult challenge for even the most skilled players in the game, what skill challenge could we invent that would challenge them? Making skirmish charges refresh with intercepting is tantamount to making them practically not exist for top players.

    It is extremely difficult to think up a skill challenge that, say, mvincible can't do at all today but could learn to do in, say, a couple months of practice. To me, that's the only kind of skill challenge that would be acceptable for the Abyss when it comes to something like forestalling the effects of skirmish and warfare charges. If it doesn't challenge them in that way, then it isn't a challenge for those players it is just a reward for them to scoop up.
    Content that mvincible has to go back to the lab and practice up for would have most players saying “F this stupid game.” :lol:
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    Nah01Nah01 Posts: 243 ★★

    This probably will be completed in the first day or at least First week, money always wins.

    Theoretically yes. But the amount of money would be unrealistically high.
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    RagamugginGunnerRagamugginGunner Posts: 2,210 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    I've been inside real mazes. You know what you can do in a real maze you can't do in MCOC? If you discover you're going down the wrong path you can just back up and go a different way. You don't have to completely start over from the beginning. The mystery of a maze is generally only interesting if you can explore that mystery with freedom of movement. The Abyss isn't a maze if it locks camera but doesn't give people freedom of movement. It is actually one of the Saw movies.

    This is something I was thinking about in all areas of the game: allow players to back up at the expense of energy. That would make things with a locked map or AW/AQ soo much more enjoyable as one wrong input wouldn't ruin everything.
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    Mcord11758Mcord11758 Posts: 1,249 ★★★★
    I think it will be explored by someone within a week or 2. The cost will be high but that’s the point
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