3* in Cavalier Crystals...

I’m trying to understand why 3* champions are in Cavalier crystals...odds are if you are Cavalier you have no need for 3*s other that for V4 which by that stage you should have hoards of them..really it should be;

Grandmaster Crystal: 3, 4 and 5 stars
Cavalier Crystal: 4, 5 and 6 stars

Comments

Secret_Gamer

'Cuz they cost the same amount as Grandmaster Crystals but have better odds at 4* and 5* and also contain 6*...

SlashingSunset

Cavalier crystals aren't something that you MUST buy. Buy them if you want to, don't buy them if you don't want to. It's there for people who just want to try their luck in getting a 5 or even better a 6*. I don't see why there shouldn't be 3*s in them.

Jmontague

But that would be the reward for achieving Cavalier. Better chances at 4 and 5 stars and also a chance for a 6 star. 3 stars shouldn’t be in there really

Jmontague

By that logic they should add 2* champs into the Grandmaster crystals

Secret_Gamer

But that would be the reward for achieving Cavalier. Better chances at 4 and 5 stars and also a chance for a 6 star. 3 stars shouldn’t be in there really

Read my comment again... they cost the same amount as Grandmasters but also have a better chance at higher rarities.

Dart1981

Whilst I agree and really stops me from purchasing cavs as a FTP player (apart from when feeling weak) if the minimum champ was a 4* that would guarantee 24 5k iso every crystal and would flood the game with iso (and because you can sell iso, gold) and ruin what is the current economy of the game.

DrZola

Remember also that Cavalier crystals are Completion and Exploration rewards for 6.2 and 6.3. Rewarding a probable 3/4* there makes perfect sense.

Dr. Zola

Gamer

I’m thinking it because ther cost 200 and if it was a 4 Star ever time meant 24 blok of iOS low one gold no need to grind that much of gold anymore

Neotwism

Remember also that Cavalier crystals are Completion and Exploration rewards for 6.2 and 6.3. Rewarding a probable 3/4* there makes perfect sense.

Dr. Zola

When introduced I had no problem with 3* champs in the cav crystals. I do not agree with having them as rewards for act 6. They easily could have came up with a better crystal or different reward for cavalier level difficulty. It feels like they just threw the crystals in at the last minute for rewards.

DrZola

Remember also that Cavalier crystals are Completion and Exploration rewards for 6.2 and 6.3. Rewarding a probable 3/4* there makes perfect sense.

Dr. Zola
When introduced I had no problem with 3* champs in the cav crystals. I do not agree with having them as rewards for act 6. They easily could have came up with a better crystal or different reward for cavalier level difficulty. It feels like they just threw the crystals in at the last minute for rewards.

100% agree and that is my point.

It’s common to much of the questing “prizes”—like straining your roster to knock out some of the Act 6 paths and among other things getting a load of T1/2/3 generic ISO (but worse, actually, because you can’t use 3/4* there—at least you can do the weekly ISO sell to get a smattering if gold).

The reward isn’t scaled to the difficulty/requirements of the content and, if dependent on pRNG, shouldn’t give back something you can’t even use for the content you completed in the first place.

Dr. Zola

PrezRio4

I think we are discussing here two different points.

I agree with @DrZola that the Cavalier crystal as a prize for Act 6 doesnt make a lot of sense. It wouldnt be unreasonable designing a similar crystal as PHC but with 4/5/6 or even just 5/6 as the prize for those quests.

But this thread is about the Cavalier crystal itself. I understand that people dont want the 3* in the Cavalier crystal. However I think it makes sense in a RNG based game to have chances of bad luck. Deciding how much bad or good luck (odds) is in the crystal will affect the development of the playerbase line in the game.

It is just like the people that claim there are meme tiers in featured crystals. If there werent, most people would buy it, most people would get top champs and the playerbase would rise too quickly. Applying this to the Cavalier crystal, people with access to it will rise too quickly while people without access will be left behind and the game would break between average and top players.

Patchie93

The 3* being there is more about controlling how fast you get 5*/6* champs.
If you remove 3* you now are guaranteed 275 5* shards or better every crystal.
Would mean at worst every 37 crystals would give you a new 5* (assuming only 4* and no max sig crystals)
Well that might not sound like much, but over a small amount of time thats a much higher rate of 5* champs being opened thus more 6* shards being generated then the game team wants.

Also if you remove 3*s how would you balance % of each class as if you make it to 4* heavy people complain more. But if you balance it out to much suddenly 5*s are being pulled even more often

rdxevil

So that you always get 3* champs.. Waste of units..

zuffy

Beating the champion in 6.2.6 should not be awarded with 3 cavalier crystals. You know what I got? 2 3* and a 4*. Smh

DrZola

I think we are discussing here two different points.

I agree with @DrZola that the Cavalier crystal as a prize for Act 6 doesnt make a lot of sense. It wouldnt be unreasonable designing a similar crystal as PHC but with 4/5/6 or even just 5/6 as the prize for those quests.

But this thread is about the Cavalier crystal itself. I understand that people dont want the 3* in the Cavalier crystal. However I think it makes sense in a RNG based game to have chances of bad luck. Deciding how much bad or good luck (odds) is in the crystal will affect the development of the playerbase line in the game.

It is just like the people that claim there are meme tiers in featured crystals. If there werent, most people would buy it, most people would get top champs and the playerbase would rise too quickly. Applying this to the Cavalier crystal, people with access to it will rise too quickly while people without access will be left behind and the game would break between average and top players.

Totally agreed. I mention Act 6 only to suggest that the game team appears to have fully embraced the notion that prizes determined by very divergent pRNG outcomes should be a central element of the strategy for MCoC (also suggested in the Dev video DorkLessons posted)—not just for the pay-for-rewards aspect of the game.

Dr. Zola

Deacon

i've had great luck with Cav crystals BUT i haven't purchased one in a few months because of the string of 3 stars i started getting. before i was getting 6 and 5s quite often ... i don't see the logic behind the currency balance or whatever .. it's a game .. the object is for more people to play ... there are millions of players with perhaps a huge stack of resources and the game runs just fine. adding a million more with those same resources doesn't hurt me or any other end player especially considering this isn't P2P.

but i digress.

DNA3000

I think we are discussing here two different points.

I agree with @DrZola that the Cavalier crystal as a prize for Act 6 doesnt make a lot of sense. It wouldnt be unreasonable designing a similar crystal as PHC but with 4/5/6 or even just 5/6 as the prize for those quests.

But this thread is about the Cavalier crystal itself. I understand that people dont want the 3* in the Cavalier crystal. However I think it makes sense in a RNG based game to have chances of bad luck. Deciding how much bad or good luck (odds) is in the crystal will affect the development of the playerbase line in the game.

It is just like the people that claim there are meme tiers in featured crystals. If there werent, most people would buy it, most people would get top champs and the playerbase would rise too quickly. Applying this to the Cavalier crystal, people with access to it will rise too quickly while people without access will be left behind and the game would break between average and top players.
Totally agreed. I mention Act 6 only to suggest that the game team appears to have fully embraced the notion that prizes determined by very divergent pRNG outcomes should be a central element of the strategy for MCoC (also suggested in the Dev video DorkLessons posted)—not just for the pay-for-rewards aspect of the game.

Dr. Zola

I don't think that really captures the situation. I mean, if I were to say that the game team appears to have fully embraced the notion that MCOC is a Marvel game that would be literally true, but it would imply a situation that wasn't true: that there exists a practical alternative. Generally speaking in a game like this, this isn't a decision you embrace, this is reality you accept, because of the way that design decision connects to practically every other one.

DNA3000

But this thread is about the Cavalier crystal itself. I understand that people dont want the 3* in the Cavalier crystal. However I think it makes sense in a RNG based game to have chances of bad luck.

Some of that is true, but there's another component that tends to get overlooked and that's the fact that duplication rewards mean every star tier champion can also be partially valued in terms of the next higher tier. In other words, 3* champs have a value that can be expressed in terms of 4* champs, and 4* champs have a value that can be expressed in terms of 5* champs.

We can say that Cavalier crystals have 3*, 4*, 5*, and 6* champs, but we can also in some sense say that the crystal contains 4* shards, 5* shards, 5* champs, and 6* champs. 5* and 6* champs are obviously desirable. And that makes 6* champs, 5* champs, and even 5* shards directly valuable. 4* shards are indirectly valuable, as 4* duplication generates 5* shards. The question then becomes: is the value of the 3* champs contained in Cavalier crystals meaningful, or so small that they are meaningless.

And that partially depends on the player's roster progress, because of the mechanism of max sig crystals. If you pull a 3* champ from a Cav crystal there are basically three main possibilities. One: you pull a 3* champ you don't have. Two: you pull a 3* champ you do have, but not at max sig. Three: you pull a 3* champ you have at max sig. In the last case, there's a high probability that the max sig crystal will contain 4* shards, effectively doubling the amount of shards generated by 3* champs.

The 6* champ in the Cav crystal has a 1% chance of dropping (the crystal odds for standard Cav are 1/11/38/50). So let's look at what drops out of a hundred Cav crystals, which is the average number it takes to get a single 6* champ (this just makes the comparison simpler, it does not in any way change the actual comparison value for a single crystal). We also get eleven 5* champs, and we get 38 4* champs. Interestingly, the value of those 4* champs in terms of 5* champs depends on the player roster: it can be anything from about 10450 5* shards to 20900 5* shards, which is basically saying someone with a less developed 4* roster will get one more 5* champ and someone with a maxed out 4* rosters will get two more. The crystal in some sense rewards more to players with more progress.

Now we get to the 3* champs. You're going to get 50 of those on average. That's between 2750 and 5500 4* shards, almost three 4* champs at the high end. Converted into 5* shards that's about 756 to 1515 5* shards of value.

Now, most people believe that 1% chance for 6* champion isn't "worthless." It has some real value. Whatever its value is, the 3* champs in the crystal have a value of as much as 1515 5* shards. In other words, comparing the value of the 1% chance for 6* and the 50% chance for 3* is analogous to comparing the value of a 6* champion and 1500 5* shards. Of course the 5* shards have less value in that comparison. But would anyone say that compared to a 6* champion 1500 5* shards have approximately *zero* value? I wouldn't.

It is very hard to compare a 6* champ to a bunch of 3* champs, and it is even harder to compare a 1% chance for 6* against a 50% chance for 3* within the same crystal. But, at least for players with maxed out 3* and 4* rosters, we can convert that intuitively difficult comparison to one a little easier to look at. Every Cavalier crystal contains some small chance of dropping a 6* champion which I think no one would remove, and everyone would think was a nerf on the value of the crystal if it was removed. Whatever the relationship is between a 6* champ and 1500 5* shards, that's the approximate relationship between the value of the 6* chance and the 3* chance in the Cav crystal. To me, that's not so low that it is irrelevant even to high progress players.

So while you might say that a 3* champ is "useless" to high tier players or to players running certain content, most 3* champion drops aren't directly "used" in that way by higher players: they are "broken down" into other resources: gold, ISO, and higher tier shards. Those things are useful to most players of any progress level, and it is just a question of how much you get.

DrZola

I think we are discussing here two different points.

I agree with @DrZola that the Cavalier crystal as a prize for Act 6 doesnt make a lot of sense. It wouldnt be unreasonable designing a similar crystal as PHC but with 4/5/6 or even just 5/6 as the prize for those quests.

But this thread is about the Cavalier crystal itself. I understand that people dont want the 3* in the Cavalier crystal. However I think it makes sense in a RNG based game to have chances of bad luck. Deciding how much bad or good luck (odds) is in the crystal will affect the development of the playerbase line in the game.

It is just like the people that claim there are meme tiers in featured crystals. If there werent, most people would buy it, most people would get top champs and the playerbase would rise too quickly. Applying this to the Cavalier crystal, people with access to it will rise too quickly while people without access will be left behind and the game would break between average and top players.
Totally agreed. I mention Act 6 only to suggest that the game team appears to have fully embraced the notion that prizes determined by very divergent pRNG outcomes should be a central element of the strategy for MCoC (also suggested in the Dev video DorkLessons posted)—not just for the pay-for-rewards aspect of the game.

Dr. Zola
I don't think that really captures the situation. I mean, if I were to say that the game team appears to have fully embraced the notion that MCOC is a Marvel game that would be literally true, but it would imply a situation that wasn't true: that there exists a practical alternative. Generally speaking in a game like this, this isn't a decision you embrace, this is reality you accept, because of the way that design decision connects to practically every other one.

Practical alternative: don’t make Cavalier crystals part of Act 6 rewards.

See, that wasn’t so hard, was it?

Dr. Zola

Tehsigzorz

Why wouldnt you want 3 stars as rewards for completing Act 6? /s

GroundedWisdom

The alternative is to replace the 3*s in the Crystal with nothing. I highly doubt people would want that. The Drop Rates are set for a reason. Replace them with 4*s, you increase the flow of 5* shards. Then you end up increasing the flow of 5*s and 6*s because the Drop Rates shift. Unless you want to keep them the same, and you end up with a majority of 4*s and we're back here discussing how 4*s are beneath Cavalier.

NEO_mr_Anderson

I'm fine with the way it is. Imo, it's not because you're cavalier that you must only pulls 5-6*.

this is my stats, uo to now, and, it's ok for me...

DrZola

Why wouldnt you want 3 stars as rewards for completing Act 6? /s

Just think of them each as ~3/10 of a percent of a 5*—so, you didn’t get a 3*, you just got a fractional share of a 5*.

That should make it all better.

Dr. Zola

Nick1109

I thought the same thing at one point but if Cavs guaranteed at least a 4* you wouldn't need to grind much to get ISO seeing as 1 4* dupe gets your 24 t5b ISO.

Rougeknight87

My view that they defiantly have no place being given out as Act 6 rewards given the large discrepancy in potential rewards but having them so readily available would hasten the amount of 5* shards being accrued exponentially.
ISO/GOLD would go through the roof and watching dork’s last couple of sit downs that’s what they’re trying not to do.
As it is you pay 200 units on a pure gamble which is okay by me, you know the odds going in and that’s what the crystal was originally brought in for

DOC83

I’m trying to understand why 3* champions are in Cavalier crystals...odds are if you are Cavalier you have no need for 3*s other that for V4 which by that stage you should have hoards of them..really it should be;

Grandmaster Crystal: 3, 4 and 5 stars
Cavalier Crystal: 4, 5 and 6 stars

They don't want to remove 3*s just yet. For them removing 3*s from the game will break the economy of the game. because u iwll getting lots of iso and gold from the crystals and inturn lots of 5*stars will then agian increases the availability of 6*s in the game. For eg: COWhale open 800 of such crystals that inturn after a point will start giving him way more 5* to convert into 6* shards.They want to stop your pregression by creating defeciency of gold and iso.

Das_gi

Remember also that Cavalier crystals are Completion and Exploration rewards for 6.2 and 6.3. Rewarding a probable 3/4* there makes perfect sense.

Dr. Zola
When introduced I had no problem with 3* champs in the cav crystals. I do not agree with having them as rewards for act 6. They easily could have came up with a better crystal or different reward for cavalier level difficulty. It feels like they just threw the crystals in at the last minute for rewards.

They could have easily changed those stupid cavalier crystals to legendary crystals

SlashingSunset

I thought the same thing at one point but if Cavs guaranteed at least a 4* you wouldn't need to grind much to get ISO seeing as 1 4* dupe gets your 24 t5b ISO.

This as well, everyone who's Cav could just go get this crystals to stock up on 5* Shards and ISO without much effort. Where's the fun in that.

Neotwism

I thought the same thing at one point but if Cavs guaranteed at least a 4* you wouldn't need to grind much to get ISO seeing as 1 4* dupe gets your 24 t5b ISO.
This as well, everyone who's Cav could just go get this crystals to stock up on 5* Shards and ISO without much effort. Where's the fun in that.

How. Is that much different to how it is now? 50% of crystals are 4* and above. If someone is short iso they can easily buy these crystals to get more including 5* shards if they want. It just will cost them twice as much. If someone is willing to buy the crystals the price is low enough that they can take the 50% chance of getting 4* champs or above to stock up on iso and shards.

Thecurler

Remember also that Cavalier crystals are Completion and Exploration rewards for 6.2 and 6.3. Rewarding a probable 3/4* there makes perfect sense.

Dr. Zola

My rewards for 6.3 completion...