@Akumaccb I absolutely agree with you about The Champion fight. The only time I really had any trouble with him was during the No Retreat fight. The other nodes were pretty much unnoticeable and I would take on the fight usually with 2-3 of the linked nodes up to minimize how many times I had to do the fight. SS makes the fight super easy
And to add on to that, @StevieManWonder found using SS appropriate, and that’s not the only viable counter. For those who have been complaining that they “don’t possess suitable counters” when taking on 6.2 Champion I find that to be a bit of an over exaggeration. You just have to clear him once to gain access to 6.3 where you can progress further. And to clear him just once all you need is to use one out of counters like Dr Doom (my go to), She-hulk, Symbiote Supreme, Stealth Spidey, Capiw, Spider-Gwen, BWCV, Thing, Morningstar and Magik... These champs are relatively old as of now and you should already have access to at least one option by the time you reach The Champion.
All one has to do is practice with these champs, rank up the ones you’re Most proficient with and have a go. It is this kind of defeatist attitude that’s proving a stumbling block to players who say they can’t do it without actually trying.
I found Doom with Mister Fantastic’s Careful Study Passive to be the best answer to the No Retreat node but overall, SS is the best. Hood is also a fantastic counter to the Champion and he’s a fairly common pull.
Exactly, these champs are not in short supply any longer.
It's still just down to really adverse odds in getting them even if they have been "available" for a while. I'm fully on board with players having to spend the time to progress their rosters prior to trying to handle endgame content but regardless of how much time someone spends, there's a chance you could go years without ever getting a viable counter to some of the act 6 fights.
Even if you just give someone a 10% chance at something they need it's far better than what we currently have. I've opened over 40 of the current versions of featured 5* crystal before not even getting my target but just something that wasn't useless. 600,000 shards before you get something you can actually use is ridiculous. That's not even getting into the horrendous odds on cavs .
Wouldn’t a better alternative be to then stick to basic crystals? That way you don’t have waste that extra 50% and you get more chances to expand your roster too. Granted that the odds of pulling good champs from the expanded range in basics is lower, but you still save that 50% and have more opportunities to pull.
The lack of transparency, honesty and communication are the big issues here. In other games, the heroes and equipments are labelled as common/rare and legendary, so the rng is almost pure/real. Just almost, because every game has an algorythm, to push you to spend and to reward you better if you spend. This game was unbalanced and was going on a very bad direction, but didn't matter, because the revenue was coming,without creative and exciting ideas. Now it is the time to spice and shake up this game, time to give the possibility to progress without spending and to get a good game experience.
Cavalier - 3* Common, 4* Rare, 5* Epic, 6* Legendary If you feel more comfortable looking at it that way. However, there's no algorithm that gives you a better Reward if you spend.
@Akumaccb I absolutely agree with you about The Champion fight. The only time I really had any trouble with him was during the No Retreat fight. The other nodes were pretty much unnoticeable and I would take on the fight usually with 2-3 of the linked nodes up to minimize how many times I had to do the fight. SS makes the fight super easy
And to add on to that, @StevieManWonder found using SS appropriate, and that’s not the only viable counter. For those who have been complaining that they “don’t possess suitable counters” when taking on 6.2 Champion I find that to be a bit of an over exaggeration. You just have to clear him once to gain access to 6.3 where you can progress further. And to clear him just once all you need is to use one out of counters like Dr Doom (my go to), She-hulk, Symbiote Supreme, Stealth Spidey, Capiw, Spider-Gwen, BWCV, Thing, Morningstar and Magik... These champs are relatively old as of now and you should already have access to at least one option by the time you reach The Champion.
All one has to do is practice with these champs, rank up the ones you’re Most proficient with and have a go. It is this kind of defeatist attitude that’s proving a stumbling block to players who say they can’t do it without actually trying.
I need you to show me a solo on 6.2.6 with CapIW and Thing.
End game content should ALWAYS be the hardest content for the end game players. LOL was introduced before Spark, Aegon or NF. It was hard as hell when first introduced. As time goes by, rosters get better and new champs get introduced, making the content easier. That’s the whole idea.
Act 6 is similar. It’s hard as hell for people’s rosters now. But as time passes, it’ll get easier.
People are just complaining because they can’t do it NOW when they “think” they’re “end game” and the content was designed for them. It’s not.
That's great
but what does that have to do with the topic we have been discussing which is related to restricting players rosters with gates and having niche fights that require a handful of counters which is only available via RNG crystals. As i have said over and over again this is not fun content design. The guy who posted about the fight using blade, didn't say its too difficult, he bemoaned that its not fun content.
At no point have i said Act 6 is too difficult.
My example above was to illustrate the difference in the difficulty of content based on champions. So people saying content isn't challenging enough but using champions like Ghost, Corvus, Aegon etc is a moot point.
End game content should ALWAYS be the hardest content for the end game players. LOL was introduced before Spark, Aegon or NF. It was hard as hell when first introduced. As time goes by, rosters get better and new champs get introduced, making the content easier. That’s the whole idea.
Act 6 is similar. It’s hard as hell for people’s rosters now. But as time passes, it’ll get easier.
People are just complaining because they can’t do it NOW when they “think” they’re “end game” and the content was designed for them. It’s not.
That's great
but what does that have to do with the topic we have been discussing which is related to restricting players rosters with gates and having niche fights that require a handful of counters which is only available via RNG crystals. As i have said over and over again this is not fun content design. The guy who posted about the fight using blade, didn't say its too difficult, he bemoaned that its not fun content.
At no point have i said Act 6 is too difficult.
My example above was to illustrate the difference in the difficulty of content based on champions. So people saying content isn't challenging enough but using champions like Ghost, Corvus, Aegon etc is a moot point.
Restricting players rosters with gates and niche fights = requiring you to have certain champs to be able to clear it easier = roster breadth.
Of course it’s not fun to trudge through a fight using a champ that’s the fight is not designed for.
The reason why people think Variants (except V1) is “fun” content is because they are EASY.
A long post in which you agree with what i have been saying which is restrictive content based on RNG using gates and super Niche fights is not fun content.
At no point have i been arguing that act 6 needs to made easier. I have no Problem with the difficulty, but designing progression to be based of RNG rather then skill is not for me and had Book 2 been released as it was in the beta then I would of walked away from the game.
People will complain about the champion fight because it is quite frankly the hardest fight in the game. You can't just throw units at it to get past it. There is a element of skilled required. However at the same time your experience with the fight also depends on your luck with pulling certain champions. That last 10% is super easy using cap IW then compared to say Hood. So you have to understand peoples frustration. It also does't help with all the Youtubers doing this with best counters like SS, Cap IW etc its gives people a sense of It can't be done unless i have those champs. I had to do my first run on him using Hood as he was my only real option due to poor pulls in the mystic class and other counters to this fight.
Also the fight didn't need the linked nodes, it should of been left without the extra nodes. The only change i would make to this fight is removing the linked nodes like no retreat.
End game content should ALWAYS be the hardest content for the end game players. LOL was introduced before Spark, Aegon or NF. It was hard as hell when first introduced. As time goes by, rosters get better and new champs get introduced, making the content easier. That’s the whole idea.
Act 6 is similar. It’s hard as hell for people’s rosters now. But as time passes, it’ll get easier.
People are just complaining because they can’t do it NOW when they “think” they’re “end game” and the content was designed for them. It’s not.
That's great
but what does that have to do with the topic we have been discussing which is related to restricting players rosters with gates and having niche fights that require a handful of counters which is only available via RNG crystals. As i have said over and over again this is not fun content design. The guy who posted about the fight using blade, didn't say its too difficult, he bemoaned that its not fun content.
At no point have i said Act 6 is too difficult.
My example above was to illustrate the difference in the difficulty of content based on champions. So people saying content isn't challenging enough but using champions like Ghost, Corvus, Aegon etc is a moot point.
Restricting players rosters with gates and niche fights = requiring you to have certain champs to be able to clear it easier = roster breadth.
Of course it’s not fun to trudge through a fight using a champ that’s the fight is not designed for.
The reason why people think Variants (except V1) is “fun” content is because they are EASY.
Please explain how i can farm these counters to improve roster breadth.... Oh i need to spin some RNG crystals. Oh i can buy crystals that gives me champions that perform a certain role ( Critical Rate Crystal), oh look there's a crystal where i only pull mystic champions i can buy.
The fact is the consensus was already made that the gates were a bad idea. So your wrong. But you keep arguing they were a good idea.
I'm done having this discussion with you because you just don't get it.
Gates were bad idea to test roster breadth. So Kabam went with niche champ as roster breadth check as seen in 6.3/4. With the backlash, both methods were bad ideas.
Did you stop to think that it might not have been Kabam’s issue, but the over-entitlement of the playerbase? And Kabam being a for-profit entity, is forced to cave in to keep their revenue stream ongoing?
Anyway, I would like to hear some constructive criticism from you on how fights can be challenging, and yet provides a roster breadth check, ie if your roster isn’t sufficiently deep enough, you won’t be able to get past the fight without spending a lot of units.
I'd be keen to know just how much players spend, and how much time taken, on changing their mastery set up.
I have barely changed anything in my mastery for a couple of years, purely down to the repetitive cost of paying for stuff you have already unlocked, and the user un-friendly process of how it works.
Do some people change it regularly, like every month?!
In high Tier alliance War some change their mastery from suicides to not suicides EVERY War. Bc if you place with suicide most champs become a joke as defender (ofc not all)
How about instead of just Story mode awarding end game materials and gold, maybe look to explore another section of the game that is like a secondary source to those materials like a Portal mode where you enter a portal and has 3 to 5 bosses all with buffs on them, to defeat them requires you to strategise and this mode could be activated as you pass through a chapter or episode in Story, Event Quests and/or Special Quests
Gates were bad idea to test roster breadth. So Kabam went with niche champ as roster breadth check as seen in 6.3/4. With the backlash, both methods were bad ideas.
Did you stop to think that it might not have been Kabam’s issue, but the over-entitlement of the playerbase? And Kabam being a for-profit entity, is forced to cave in to keep their revenue stream ongoing?
Anyway, I would like to hear some constructive criticism from you on how fights can be challenging, and yet provides a roster breadth check, ie if your roster isn’t sufficiently deep enough, you won’t be able to get past the fight without spending a lot of units.
LOL, imagine these nodes.
Unbreakable
The defender takes 90% less damage if the attacker takes damage from the defender's hits. IE: only indestructible champs.
No Pain No Gain
The attacker deals damage only when there are 3 or more damaging debuffs on themselves. IE: only Diablo with suicides, I think.
I’ll just straight up say it in regards to act 6. Some nodes are BS, sure, but it’s the attack values primarily that I find the most irritating, they need toned down. Testing roster depth is fine by me (I only have 11 r5s and 2 r2s, so I’m not some whale with 40+ acting like an average player) but damn if you’re gonna make me use champs like king groot, just tone down the attack values a bit. Also more fights like the grandmaster for the future, that was fun and challenging.
Other than that, there just needs to be an improvement to specific champion acquisition, which will become more and more necessary as we push to 200 available champs and beyond.
Oh and it’s a bit late considering kabam have already dumped the majority of the trash in the 6* pool, but stop adding trash to the 6* pool, not asking for stuff like blade and Hyperion to be added, but there’s certainly better options than adding both 5* magnetos
Gates were bad idea to test roster breadth. So Kabam went with niche champ as roster breadth check as seen in 6.3/4. With the backlash, both methods were bad ideas.
Did you stop to think that it might not have been Kabam’s issue, but the over-entitlement of the playerbase? And Kabam being a for-profit entity, is forced to cave in to keep their revenue stream ongoing?
Anyway, I would like to hear some constructive criticism from you on how fights can be challenging, and yet provides a roster breadth check, ie if your roster isn’t sufficiently deep enough, you won’t be able to get past the fight without spending a lot of units.
LOL, imagine these nodes.
Unbreakable
The defender takes 90% less damage if the attacker takes damage from the defender's hits. IE: only indestructible champs.
No Pain No Gain
The attacker deals damage only when there are 3 or more damaging debuffs on themselves. IE: only Diablo with suicides, I think.
That’s the same line of thought that went into A6 nodes.
Still can’t find any constructive criticism on HOW the community wants content to be challenging and check for roster depth without making the fights a faceroll.
Gates were bad idea to test roster breadth. So Kabam went with niche champ as roster breadth check as seen in 6.3/4. With the backlash, both methods were bad ideas.
Did you stop to think that it might not have been Kabam’s issue, but the over-entitlement of the playerbase? And Kabam being a for-profit entity, is forced to cave in to keep their revenue stream ongoing?
Anyway, I would like to hear some constructive criticism from you on how fights can be challenging, and yet provides a roster breadth check, ie if your roster isn’t sufficiently deep enough, you won’t be able to get past the fight without spending a lot of units.
LOL, imagine these nodes.
Unbreakable
The defender takes 90% less damage if the attacker takes damage from the defender's hits. IE: only indestructible champs.
No Pain No Gain
The attacker deals damage only when there are 3 or more damaging debuffs on themselves. IE: only Diablo with suicides, I think.
Indestructible champs isn’t hard, not to mention LC is one of the oldest champs. If they pair “Unbreakable” with a node that gives an indestructible buff during heavy attacks or for 3 seconds after countering a special attack, it’ll be fine. (That’s EXACTLY what was done for some of the nodes in A6).
kabam can make the fights really difficult by tweaking the AI. I am sure no one would like that and would rather have difficulty tested by roster breadth.
I’d like breadth determined a little more broadly.
Seriously, niche fights are just a different way of gating. And I think the concern here for the game team should be balancing difficulty with accessibility. It’s all well and good that content can’t be plowed through by everyone, but if Options #1 & 2 are for a 3-4 year player to burn significant resources OR just wait to develop a twenty-strong fleet of the “right” R5/R2 champs, then there are probably a lot of those players who suddenly discover Option #3: find something else to do.
Gates were bad idea to test roster breadth. So Kabam went with niche champ as roster breadth check as seen in 6.3/4. With the backlash, both methods were bad ideas.
Did you stop to think that it might not have been Kabam’s issue, but the over-entitlement of the playerbase? And Kabam being a for-profit entity, is forced to cave in to keep their revenue stream ongoing?
Anyway, I would like to hear some constructive criticism from you on how fights can be challenging, and yet provides a roster breadth check, ie if your roster isn’t sufficiently deep enough, you won’t be able to get past the fight without spending a lot of units.
I can say the same to you. Did you stop to think that its your issue that you have played and grinded the game so much that content doesn't challenge you because you have so many champions ?
Trying to say the player base is self entitled also holds no merit. Just because you get a handful of people who complain. Majority of players don't even come to forums.
Its pretty simple really don't create these fights which have extremely small counters . E.g. Acid wash Mysterio has 2 counters. KG and Man Thing and i believe Howard the Duck has the ability to apply poison and armor break with his sp2 but its purely random. How is this a good roster check design. - Swap out Mysterio for some other champion that can be poisoned without Armor break and you now have 12 possible counters. - You can also change the node to be similar to the do you bleed but poison instead along with the enhanced poison damage node.
Not only does this force players to use a champion that can poison but also isn't overly punishing on RNG and adequately checks a players roster.
Gimme path in 6.4 why have have the 200% power gain on this path. You want players to use regeneration champs which i believe there is around 15 of them that can constantly heal through out a fight ( Not like Voodoo). The power gain literally forces players to now use a a even smaller pool of champs. Magic ( Awakened maybe work unawakened not sure) being by far the best choice. Other champs that others have made work are Sorcerer Supreme BWCV and blade and just parry and regen. Again how is this actually a roster check when the counters are 4 champs out of 176.
Same path whats the point in putting spectre on the VTD ? what champion heals and ignores spectre that can manage power gain ( as regen buff will also trigger prey on the weak plus 200% power gain).
there is countless type of these fights with node combinations through out act 6 and i'm not going to list them all.
Now tell me how these fights/paths don't serve to punish players on poor RNG to get past. Tell me how this is good content design
Gates were bad idea to test roster breadth. So Kabam went with niche champ as roster breadth check as seen in 6.3/4. With the backlash, both methods were bad ideas.
Did you stop to think that it might not have been Kabam’s issue, but the over-entitlement of the playerbase? And Kabam being a for-profit entity, is forced to cave in to keep their revenue stream ongoing?
Anyway, I would like to hear some constructive criticism from you on how fights can be challenging, and yet provides a roster breadth check, ie if your roster isn’t sufficiently deep enough, you won’t be able to get past the fight without spending a lot of units.
LOL, imagine these nodes.
Unbreakable
The defender takes 90% less damage if the attacker takes damage from the defender's hits. IE: only indestructible champs.
No Pain No Gain
The attacker deals damage only when there are 3 or more damaging debuffs on themselves. IE: only Diablo with suicides, I think.
That’s the same line of thought that went into A6 nodes.
Still can’t find any constructive criticism on HOW the community wants content to be challenging and check for roster depth without making the fights a faceroll.
My preference is looking more at node design that not only punishes you but encourages you to counter or play to the node as opposed to bypassing it with champs like quake. Nodes like icarus and backblast were actually fun bc if you played them correctly you could use them to your benefit. If you screw up you can still get wrecked but if you don't they're actually a large benefit.
I'm not saying use that same type of design repeatedly but the general premise of do this and it can be a large benefit but screw up and your dead is far more enjoyable than just do this or you do no damage
kabam can make the fights really difficult by tweaking the AI. I am sure no one would like that and would rather have difficulty tested by roster breadth.
oh you mean like they do now with the constant changes to the AI that are made each update which changes timings, windows and AI behavior. e.g. recently Cable sp1 now not fully dexable ( have to dex the second half of it).
They could even do linked paths that work almost like some of the variant globals. You could play off the tag system that gives certain tagged champs benefit to incentivize using atypical champs while not completely road blocking people that may not have the intended champs.
Granted you'd ideally be looking for something more difficult than most of those nodes but the idea holds up and can make fights challenging but enjoyable while still encouraging roster growth
A lot of the most popular counters to some of the 6.3 and 6.4 nodes are more about avoiding or bypassing the node than actually countering it. At that point, what's the point of it at all?
Using passive damage champs like Omega and torch against special connoisseur isn't countering the node it's just avoiding it all together.
When there's no benefit to actual counterplay all you do is encourage playing around it. So you end up with nothing but YouTube videos with people saying "oh that's annoying, I'm just gonna quake it" or some other champ that avoids it all together. Then you get the player base feeling they HAVE to have these 5 or so champs that just avoid everything to progress even if they may have champs that may counter the node but they're not actually worth using.
Gates were bad idea to test roster breadth. So Kabam went with niche champ as roster breadth check as seen in 6.3/4. With the backlash, both methods were bad ideas.
Did you stop to think that it might not have been Kabam’s issue, but the over-entitlement of the playerbase? And Kabam being a for-profit entity, is forced to cave in to keep their revenue stream ongoing?
Anyway, I would like to hear some constructive criticism from you on how fights can be challenging, and yet provides a roster breadth check, ie if your roster isn’t sufficiently deep enough, you won’t be able to get past the fight without spending a lot of units.
I can say the same to you. Did you stop to think that its your issue that you have played and grinded the game so much that content doesn't challenge you because you have so many champions ?
Trying to say the player base is self entitled also holds no merit. Just because you get a handful of people who complain. Majority of players don't even come to forums.
Its pretty simple really don't create these fights which have extremely small counters . E.g. Acid wash Mysterio has 2 counters. KG and Man Thing and i believe Howard the Duck has the ability to apply poison and armor break with his sp2 but its purely random. How is this a good roster check design. - Swap out Mysterio for some other champion that can be poisoned without Armor break and you now have 12 possible counters. - You can also change the node to be similar to the do you bleed but poison instead along with the enhanced poison damage node.
Not only does this force players to use a champion that can poison but also isn't overly punishing on RNG and adequately checks a players roster.
Gimme path in 6.4 why have have the 200% power gain on this path. You want players to use regeneration champs which i believe there is around 15 of them that can constantly heal through out a fight ( Not like Voodoo). The power gain literally forces players to now use a a even smaller pool of champs. Magic ( Awakened maybe work unawakened not sure) being by far the best choice. Other champs that others have made work are Sorcerer Supreme BWCV and blade and just parry and regen. Again how is this actually a roster check when the counters are 4 champs out of 176.
Same path whats the point in putting spectre on the VTD ? what champion heals and ignores spectre that can manage power gain ( as regen buff will also trigger prey on the weak plus 200% power gain).
there is countless type of these fights with node combinations through out act 6 and i'm not going to list them all.
Now tell me how these fights/paths don't serve to punish players on poor RNG to get past. Tell me how this is good content design
Magik with suicides is one of the top counters to that gimme path. It's who I used. I did it before cheesing VtD with Nick Fury was as widely known as it is now so I basically let his buffs expire and used MD to get as close to sp2 as possible to get the fight under control early. The heal from limbo after recoil gave you some solid damage. It was a rough path regardless and antman in particular wasn't fun
Gates were bad idea to test roster breadth. So Kabam went with niche champ as roster breadth check as seen in 6.3/4. With the backlash, both methods were bad ideas.
Did you stop to think that it might not have been Kabam’s issue, but the over-entitlement of the playerbase? And Kabam being a for-profit entity, is forced to cave in to keep their revenue stream ongoing?
Anyway, I would like to hear some constructive criticism from you on how fights can be challenging, and yet provides a roster breadth check, ie if your roster isn’t sufficiently deep enough, you won’t be able to get past the fight without spending a lot of units.
I can say the same to you. Did you stop to think that its your issue that you have played and grinded the game so much that content doesn't challenge you because you have so many champions ?
Trying to say the player base is self entitled also holds no merit. Just because you get a handful of people who complain. Majority of players don't even come to forums.
Its pretty simple really don't create these fights which have extremely small counters . E.g. Acid wash Mysterio has 2 counters. KG and Man Thing and i believe Howard the Duck has the ability to apply poison and armor break with his sp2 but its purely random. How is this a good roster check design. - Swap out Mysterio for some other champion that can be poisoned without Armor break and you now have 12 possible counters. - You can also change the node to be similar to the do you bleed but poison instead along with the enhanced poison damage node.
Not only does this force players to use a champion that can poison but also isn't overly punishing on RNG and adequately checks a players roster.
Gimme path in 6.4 why have have the 200% power gain on this path. You want players to use regeneration champs which i believe there is around 15 of them that can constantly heal through out a fight ( Not like Voodoo). The power gain literally forces players to now use a a even smaller pool of champs. Magic ( Awakened maybe work unawakened not sure) being by far the best choice. Other champs that others have made work are Sorcerer Supreme BWCV and blade and just parry and regen. Again how is this actually a roster check when the counters are 4 champs out of 176.
Same path whats the point in putting spectre on the VTD ? what champion heals and ignores spectre that can manage power gain ( as regen buff will also trigger prey on the weak plus 200% power gain).
there is countless type of these fights with node combinations through out act 6 and i'm not going to list them all.
Now tell me how these fights/paths don't serve to punish players on poor RNG to get past. Tell me how this is good content design
If you’ve read previous posts, I did mention that they overdid it with some and there are some BS fights as well. Acid Wash Mysterio is one of them, whoM someone pointed out can be soloed by SL/G99. 🤷🏻♂️
Gimme Path is fine having quite a lot of counters (especially if you run suicides). The Spectre node on VtD requires you to time your regens well, which is an important skill aspect of it. Time it badly, you take damage, time it well, you deal damage. (Side note, it was heal block in the beta.)
It’s not poor rng. It’s just an underdeveloped roster trying to push content in the guise of “bad rng”.
Gates were bad idea to test roster breadth. So Kabam went with niche champ as roster breadth check as seen in 6.3/4. With the backlash, both methods were bad ideas.
Did you stop to think that it might not have been Kabam’s issue, but the over-entitlement of the playerbase? And Kabam being a for-profit entity, is forced to cave in to keep their revenue stream ongoing?
Anyway, I would like to hear some constructive criticism from you on how fights can be challenging, and yet provides a roster breadth check, ie if your roster isn’t sufficiently deep enough, you won’t be able to get past the fight without spending a lot of units.
LOL, imagine these nodes.
Unbreakable
The defender takes 90% less damage if the attacker takes damage from the defender's hits. IE: only indestructible champs.
No Pain No Gain
The attacker deals damage only when there are 3 or more damaging debuffs on themselves. IE: only Diablo with suicides, I think.
That’s the same line of thought that went into A6 nodes.
Still can’t find any constructive criticism on HOW the community wants content to be challenging and check for roster depth without making the fights a faceroll.
My preference is looking more at node design that not only punishes you but encourages you to counter or play to the node as opposed to bypassing it with champs like quake. Nodes like icarus and backblast were actually fun bc if you played them correctly you could use them to your benefit. If you screw up you can still get wrecked but if you don't they're actually a large benefit.
I'm not saying use that same type of design repeatedly but the general premise of do this and it can be a large benefit but screw up and your dead is far more enjoyable than just do this or you do no damage
Yup I agree. It generally needs to provide a benefit for doing the right action vs doing the right action just to get by.
Using the above “Unbreakable” as an example, it could be as simple as adding “Indestructible buffs also provide additional 200% attack.” in the node description.
End game content should ALWAYS be the hardest content for the end game players. LOL was introduced before Spark, Aegon or NF. It was hard as hell when first introduced. As time goes by, rosters get better and new champs get introduced, making the content easier. That’s the whole idea.
Act 6 is similar. It’s hard as hell for people’s rosters now. But as time passes, it’ll get easier.
People are just complaining because they can’t do it NOW when they “think” they’re “end game” and the content was designed for them. It’s not.
That's great
but what does that have to do with the topic we have been discussing which is related to restricting players rosters with gates and having niche fights that require a handful of counters which is only available via RNG crystals. As i have said over and over again this is not fun content design. The guy who posted about the fight using blade, didn't say its too difficult, he bemoaned that its not fun content.
At no point have i said Act 6 is too difficult.
My example above was to illustrate the difference in the difficulty of content based on champions. So people saying content isn't challenging enough but using champions like Ghost, Corvus, Aegon etc is a moot point.
Restricting players rosters with gates and niche fights = requiring you to have certain champs to be able to clear it easier = roster breadth.
Of course it’s not fun to trudge through a fight using a champ that’s the fight is not designed for.
The reason why people think Variants (except V1) is “fun” content is because they are EASY.
Story mode should not be end game content. Save that for alternate modes eg variants, and hopefully cavalier EQs.
A game that purports to tell a story 75% of the players can't hear is doing something wrong.
@xNig you're the one who should read previous posts. You argue act 6 is fine people are just not ready for it as they need roster depth and then when i give you examples of bad fights and you are like yeah i said they over did it.
I swear man you are just trolling. We already had the discussion that you can do those fights just ends up taking along time and isn't fun. I ended up doing it with NF as i didn't have KG.
nah i would say majority of players didn't think Gimme path was fine. feel free to run a poll and prove me wrong on that. The power gain on that path is over the top. Basically forces everyone to use Magic because forget about dexing 30-40 specials in a fight from champions like Bishop, SS etc.
It’s not poor rng. It’s just an underdeveloped roster trying to push content in the guise of “bad rng”.
Again explain to me how a person is supposed to get a particular counter such as KG for mysterio ? Where is this magical place where i can work on getting the champ so i can rank him up to use for this fight.
End game content should ALWAYS be the hardest content for the end game players. LOL was introduced before Spark, Aegon or NF. It was hard as hell when first introduced. As time goes by, rosters get better and new champs get introduced, making the content easier. That’s the whole idea.
Act 6 is similar. It’s hard as hell for people’s rosters now. But as time passes, it’ll get easier.
People are just complaining because they can’t do it NOW when they “think” they’re “end game” and the content was designed for them. It’s not.
That's great
but what does that have to do with the topic we have been discussing which is related to restricting players rosters with gates and having niche fights that require a handful of counters which is only available via RNG crystals. As i have said over and over again this is not fun content design. The guy who posted about the fight using blade, didn't say its too difficult, he bemoaned that its not fun content.
At no point have i said Act 6 is too difficult.
My example above was to illustrate the difference in the difficulty of content based on champions. So people saying content isn't challenging enough but using champions like Ghost, Corvus, Aegon etc is a moot point.
Restricting players rosters with gates and niche fights = requiring you to have certain champs to be able to clear it easier = roster breadth.
Of course it’s not fun to trudge through a fight using a champ that’s the fight is not designed for.
The reason why people think Variants (except V1) is “fun” content is because they are EASY.
Story mode should not be end game content. Save that for alternate modes eg variants, and hopefully cavalier EQs.
A game that purports to tell a story 75% of the players can't hear is doing something wrong.
Which is a fine way to look at it, but the question then is do you still expect the same level of progressional rewards for completing it?
If other content became end game players primary way to obtain the next level of rank resources we'd just have a lot of players complaining that content is too hard. I'm not really sure if people are expecting these large reductions in difficulty but not have rewards reduced as well, but if so that doesn't make sense to me.
To be honest, I've played pretty much since the start and maybe I've not played in a high enough alliance or maybe I haven't had as much luck with RNG but I definitely struggled during Act 6 exploration and didn't always have good counters regardless of rank up resources, I consider myself a reasonable player too. For those people who do have newer accounts and are motivated to push progress I think hearing that once they get to a point they need to wait potentially for months or years until RNG gives them what they need to satisfy gates AND those champs be able to clear the content must be hugely disheartening. If the situation was flipped I'd probably have called it a day.
Of course you'll have some variance in things depending on how much and at what level people are playing at. I also am not blaming the players for the situation at least solely. It's a combination of there being more access to higher tier rewards and just more resources in general than those of us playing act 5 at release and players feeling they need to "catch up".
There are people complaining about act 6 that have only done one pass through Act 5 and never even attempted exploration yet. It's no real surprise they're finding it insanely difficult.
That's why I see what they were attempting with the 6.2 gates in forcing players to stop and regroup before pushing forward. They went a bit too far to an extent though. 6.2.2 Sinister, the 6.2.5 gates, and 6.2.6 are too prohibitive in my opinion but outside of those instances I much prefer the design of 6.2 over the ultra specific nodes and insane attack and health we got in 6.3 and 6.4 personally.
Same point, worded differently.
If only A6 had an Elder’s Bane gate, and A7, Throne Breaker.
If Act 6 was HEAVILY tuned down, that could be acceptable. Especially if Kabam listens and rethinks their approach to progressive story content so Act 7 isn't over-the-top obnoxious with nodes on nodes on nodes. Otherwise, it's just asking people to not bother at all with the story content anymore.
Ok Act 6 heavily toned down. Act 7 toned down in a similar way. So, which content will be left to actually challenge your r5 and 6*r3 rosters?
We need something, right? Should they change Variant difficulty to same as Variant 1? Because I know people will kick up a bigger storm if they made future variants difficult now.
This is the problem, what is supposed to be end game content in this game? It's always been story and additional Everest type content like Rol through AoL. Does it need to stay that way? If so, to what level should it be tuned? I personally don't have a problem with most of 6.2 and wasn't a fan of 6.3 and 6.4 but other people obviously feel differently. If story content is no longer going to be what tests the top tier players, can we really expect the jumps in roster progression that we get from it currently? What would replace it?
As you said I can only imagine how people would react if the Variants went from a sort of in-between to being the apex of content difficulty again. So are the top only supposed to get some legitimately challenging stuff every few years when we get the next Everest?
When v1d introduced it was endgame content. Personally imo that's how it should be. People have switched to doing variants because they have been easier than acts 6.2 to 6.4. rather than tune down act 6, they times down v2 onwards. When imo they should have tuned down the story content.
That's not saying v1 is at the right level, but if anything is going to be hard endgame content let it be the variants not the story.
Comments
If you feel more comfortable looking at it that way.
However, there's no algorithm that gives you a better Reward if you spend.
That's great
but what does that have to do with the topic we have been discussing which is related to restricting players rosters with gates and having niche fights that require a handful of counters which is only available via RNG crystals.
As i have said over and over again this is not fun content design. The guy who posted about the fight using blade, didn't say its too difficult, he bemoaned that its not fun content.
At no point have i said Act 6 is too difficult.
My example above was to illustrate the difference in the difficulty of content based on champions. So people saying content isn't challenging enough but using champions like Ghost, Corvus, Aegon etc is a moot point.
Of course it’s not fun to trudge through a fight using a champ that’s the fight is not designed for.
The reason why people think Variants (except V1) is “fun” content is because they are EASY.
A long post in which you agree with what i have been saying which is restrictive content based on RNG using gates and super Niche fights is not fun content.
At no point have i been arguing that act 6 needs to made easier. I have no Problem with the difficulty, but designing progression to be based of RNG rather then skill is not for me and had Book 2 been released as it was in the beta then I would of walked away from the game.
People will complain about the champion fight because it is quite frankly the hardest fight in the game. You can't just throw units at it to get past it. There is a element of skilled required. However at the same time your experience with the fight also depends on your luck with pulling certain champions. That last 10% is super easy using cap IW then compared to say Hood. So you have to understand peoples frustration. It also does't help with all the Youtubers doing this with best counters like SS, Cap IW etc its gives people a sense of It can't be done unless i have those champs. I had to do my first run on him using Hood as he was my only real option due to poor pulls in the mystic class and other counters to this fight.
Also the fight didn't need the linked nodes, it should of been left without the extra nodes. The only change i would make to this fight is removing the linked nodes like no retreat.
The fact is the consensus was already made that the gates were a bad idea. So your wrong. But you keep arguing they were a good idea.
I'm done having this discussion with you because you just don't get it.
Did you stop to think that it might not have been Kabam’s issue, but the over-entitlement of the playerbase? And Kabam being a for-profit entity, is forced to cave in to keep their revenue stream ongoing?
Anyway, I would like to hear some constructive criticism from you on how fights can be challenging, and yet provides a roster breadth check, ie if your roster isn’t sufficiently deep enough, you won’t be able to get past the fight without spending a lot of units.
Unbreakable
The defender takes 90% less damage if the attacker takes damage from the defender's hits. IE: only indestructible champs.
No Pain No Gain
The attacker deals damage only when there are 3 or more damaging debuffs on themselves. IE: only Diablo with suicides, I think.
Some nodes are BS, sure, but it’s the attack values primarily that I find the most irritating, they need toned down.
Testing roster depth is fine by me (I only have 11 r5s and 2 r2s, so I’m not some whale with 40+ acting like an average player) but damn if you’re gonna make me use champs like king groot, just tone down the attack values a bit.
Also more fights like the grandmaster for the future, that was fun and challenging.
Other than that, there just needs to be an improvement to specific champion acquisition, which will become more and more necessary as we push to 200 available champs and beyond.
Oh and it’s a bit late considering kabam have already dumped the majority of the trash in the 6* pool, but stop adding trash to the 6* pool, not asking for stuff like blade and Hyperion to be added, but there’s certainly better options than adding both 5* magnetos
Still can’t find any constructive criticism on HOW the community wants content to be challenging and check for roster depth without making the fights a faceroll.
Same for “No Pain No Gain”.
Seriously, niche fights are just a different way of gating. And I think the concern here for the game team should be balancing difficulty with accessibility. It’s all well and good that content can’t be plowed through by everyone, but if Options #1 & 2 are for a 3-4 year player to burn significant resources OR just wait to develop a twenty-strong fleet of the “right” R5/R2 champs, then there are probably a lot of those players who suddenly discover Option #3: find something else to do.
That’s the real risk to the game, in my opinion.
Dr. Zola
Trying to say the player base is self entitled also holds no merit. Just because you get a handful of people who complain. Majority of players don't even come to forums.
Its pretty simple really don't create these fights which have extremely small counters . E.g. Acid wash Mysterio has 2 counters. KG and Man Thing and i believe Howard the Duck has the ability to apply poison and armor break with his sp2 but its purely random. How is this a good roster check design.
- Swap out Mysterio for some other champion that can be poisoned without Armor break and you now have 12 possible counters.
- You can also change the node to be similar to the do you bleed but poison instead along with the enhanced poison damage node.
Not only does this force players to use a champion that can poison but also isn't overly punishing on RNG and adequately checks a players roster.
Gimme path in 6.4 why have have the 200% power gain on this path. You want players to use regeneration champs which i believe there is around 15 of them that can constantly heal through out a fight ( Not like Voodoo). The power gain literally forces players to now use a a even smaller pool of champs. Magic ( Awakened maybe work unawakened not sure) being by far the best choice. Other champs that others have made work are Sorcerer Supreme BWCV and blade and just parry and regen. Again how is this actually a roster check when the counters are 4 champs out of 176.
Same path whats the point in putting spectre on the VTD ? what champion heals and ignores spectre that can manage power gain ( as regen buff will also trigger prey on the weak plus 200% power gain).
there is countless type of these fights with node combinations through out act 6 and i'm not going to list them all.
Now tell me how these fights/paths don't serve to punish players on poor RNG to get past. Tell me how this is good content design
I'm not saying use that same type of design repeatedly but the general premise of do this and it can be a large benefit but screw up and your dead is far more enjoyable than just do this or you do no damage
Granted you'd ideally be looking for something more difficult than most of those nodes but the idea holds up and can make fights challenging but enjoyable while still encouraging roster growth
Using passive damage champs like Omega and torch against special connoisseur isn't countering the node it's just avoiding it all together.
Gimme Path is fine having quite a lot of counters (especially if you run suicides). The Spectre node on VtD requires you to time your regens well, which is an important skill aspect of it. Time it badly, you take damage, time it well, you deal damage. (Side note, it was heal block in the beta.)
It’s not poor rng. It’s just an underdeveloped roster trying to push content in the guise of “bad rng”.
Using the above “Unbreakable” as an example, it could be as simple as adding “Indestructible buffs also provide additional 200% attack.” in the node description.
A game that purports to tell a story 75% of the players can't hear is doing something wrong.
you're the one who should read previous posts. You argue act 6 is fine people are just not ready for it as they need roster depth and then when i give you examples of bad fights and you are like yeah i said they over did it.
I swear man you are just trolling. We already had the discussion that you can do those fights just ends up taking along time and isn't fun. I ended up doing it with NF as i didn't have KG.
nah i would say majority of players didn't think Gimme path was fine. feel free to run a poll and prove me wrong on that. The power gain on that path is over the top. Basically forces everyone to use Magic because forget about dexing 30-40 specials in a fight from champions like Bishop, SS etc. Again explain to me how a person is supposed to get a particular counter such as KG for mysterio ? Where is this magical place where i can work on getting the champ so i can rank him up to use for this fight.
I'm done talking with you. You just don't get it.
If other content became end game players primary way to obtain the next level of rank resources we'd just have a lot of players complaining that content is too hard. I'm not really sure if people are expecting these large reductions in difficulty but not have rewards reduced as well, but if so that doesn't make sense to me.
That's not saying v1 is at the right level, but if anything is going to be hard endgame content let it be the variants not the story.