Kabam, please stop adding old champ usability synergies exclusively with new champs!

BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 1,448 ★★★★
edited May 2020 in Suggestions and Requests
I just saw Lagacy posted info about Tigra and Hit-Monkey. Lots of useful usability-level synergies for some old champs that suck. Cool. But you need to:

  1. Have the new champ
  2. Have the old champ
  3. Bring them both

This is so annoying! Do you really believe that people who weren't going to will decide to pursue new champs because of this? Like, "Oh, snap! I wasn't going to before, but I'll drop a couple hundred to get Tigra so I can finally get some use out of this War Machine in Act 6 when I bring them both." This won't affect the $ or desirability of Tigra and Hit-Monkey even a little. Why insist on tying usability-level synergies to new champs? So frustrating. Why can't you just release them as new solo synergies for the old champs with the update? You just keep gifting the bowling ball with your own name on it at every opportunity. So frustrating that it would take such a little course change to get some excitement in the game that doesn't mean entire new content, but nope.

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Comments

  • BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 1,448 ★★★★
    If you disagree, could you say why you would prefer the synergies that help make old champs worth using should exclusively tie-in to new champs, rather than stand alone?
  • SpideyFunkoSpideyFunko Posts: 17,047 ★★★★★
    it’s in theory a quicker buff, and it can be if you pull said champ from a featured crystal.
    If not, it’s the same time as a regular buff.
  • Colinwhitworth69Colinwhitworth69 Posts: 3,412 ★★★★★
    Yeah, gotta disagree somewhat here. They're releasing new champs that have synergies that benefit an old champ, which is a good thing in the long run.
  • BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 1,448 ★★★★
    My issue is when they tie them in with new champs exclusively. I'm all "Why not both?" No reason they can't do it.
    Technically, the Homer bowling ball is better than nothing. Doesn't mean you should be pumped about it.
  • JABBA_2JABBA_2 Posts: 99
    If the new champs don't have synergies with the bad champs, who do they have them with? Other good or already awesome champions? Domino doesn't need any new synergies - she already has several stacked ones, and if Aegon got any it would just make him too OP (unless the synergies are really bad, but that would just make the new champions worse. So far better to have synergies with Falcon than with Doctor Doom. But you're right, it's nothing to get too excited over. However, it's nice that Kabam has taken the trouble to buff the meme champions a little.

    But old champions don't need to be buffed very much, I think, it's just that the content that needs to be cleared has a list of around 20 champions that you are punished for not using, or worse, specific counters. If bad champions get a slight buff, and OP champions get a slight nerf, and content, in general, is scaled down, the problems disappear. You will be able to use less powerful champions in the latter quests of story mode, and the more powerful champions wouldn't be able to get through it too easily. However, endgame content such as the Abyss should not be nerfed - it is there for only the best of players. Story quest isn't.

    (This last paragraph should probably be posted in the general game feedback, I'll post it there, but it does have a little bearing on the question)

    However, back to the question. After re-reading your last post again, I thought that you were also implying that these buffs be delivered to mid-tier and upper-tier champions as well. Unfortunately, this would only widen the gap between some good champions and some bad ones. In some cases, it would work, but Kabam might end up just exaggerating the gap in other cases.

    Thanks for reading this (very long) post!
  • BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 1,448 ★★★★
    edited May 2020

    I didn't hit Disagree, but I don't understand the objection of making older Champs better. Even if it's through a Synergy. You need to bring them on the same Team for it to work. That's how Synergies go.

    How did you get that I object to making old champs better? Clearly I understand how synergies work as well.


    I'm over here telling you what happened at the Verizon store
    Me: "Do you have any deals for current customers?"
    Verizon: "If you are an old customer that's getting a new line, you can get a deal."
    Me: "Isn't that just a new customer deal by another name? I'd rather you just let me buy something without starting a new line I don't need and I can continue to give you this money since I'm already a customer"

    and you're responding "Why do you hate deals?"

    To be clear, making champs better is good. Synergies are good. Making you get a new champ to make an old champ not just better, but approach current meta usability, is bad. Reworks are good. Taking forever for reworks is bad. I didn't say they should stop reworks.
  • Mirage_TurtleMirage_Turtle Posts: 1,868 ★★★★

    I didn't hit Disagree, but I don't understand the objection of making older Champs better. Even if it's through a Synergy. You need to bring them on the same Team for it to work. That's how Synergies go.

    How did you get that I object to making old champs better? Clearly I understand how synergies work as well.


    I'm over here telling you what happened at the Verizon store
    Me: "Do you have any deals for new customers?"
    Verizon: "If you are an old customer that's getting a new line, you can get a deal."
    Me: "Isn't that just a new customer deal by another name? I'd rather you just let me buy something without starting a new line I don't need and I can continue to give you this money since I'm already a customer"

    and you're responding "Why do you hate deals?"

    To be clear, making champs better is good. Synergies are good. Making you get a new champ to make an old champ not just better, but approach current meta usability, is bad. Reworks are good. Taking forever for reworks is bad. I didn't say they should stop reworks.
    I think the rest of us aren't in the "All or Nothing" mentality. We'd rather have something than nothing at all.

    Currently, re-works are taking longer and longer to implement. I think Hulkbuster is approaching a year since he was selected to be the next re-work. I don't see the harm in adding some usefulness to older champs in the interim while we wait for them to get full re-works.
  • TheInfintyTheInfinty Posts: 1,329 ★★★★

    I didn't hit Disagree, but I don't understand the objection of making older Champs better. Even if it's through a Synergy. You need to bring them on the same Team for it to work. That's how Synergies go.

    How did you get that I object to making old champs better? Clearly I understand how synergies work as well.


    I'm over here telling you what happened at the Verizon store
    Me: "Do you have any deals for new customers?"
    Verizon: "If you are an old customer that's getting a new line, you can get a deal."
    Me: "Isn't that just a new customer deal by another name? I'd rather you just let me buy something without starting a new line I don't need and I can continue to give you this money since I'm already a customer"

    and you're responding "Why do you hate deals?"

    To be clear, making champs better is good. Synergies are good. Making you get a new champ to make an old champ not just better, but approach current meta usability, is bad. Reworks are good. Taking forever for reworks is bad. I didn't say they should stop reworks.
    I think the rest of us aren't in the "All or Nothing" mentality. We'd rather have something than nothing at all.

    Currently, re-works are taking longer and longer to implement. I think Hulkbuster is approaching a year since he was selected to be the next re-work. I don't see the harm in adding some usefulness to older champs in the interim while we wait for them to get full re-works.
    I think he won the poll in September so like 9 months
  • BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 1,448 ★★★★

    I didn't hit Disagree, but I don't understand the objection of making older Champs better. Even if it's through a Synergy. You need to bring them on the same Team for it to work. That's how Synergies go.

    How did you get that I object to making old champs better? Clearly I understand how synergies work as well.


    I'm over here telling you what happened at the Verizon store
    Me: "Do you have any deals for new customers?"
    Verizon: "If you are an old customer that's getting a new line, you can get a deal."
    Me: "Isn't that just a new customer deal by another name? I'd rather you just let me buy something without starting a new line I don't need and I can continue to give you this money since I'm already a customer"

    and you're responding "Why do you hate deals?"

    To be clear, making champs better is good. Synergies are good. Making you get a new champ to make an old champ not just better, but approach current meta usability, is bad. Reworks are good. Taking forever for reworks is bad. I didn't say they should stop reworks.
    I think the rest of us aren't in the "All or Nothing" mentality. We'd rather have something than nothing at all.

    Currently, re-works are taking longer and longer to implement. I think Hulkbuster is approaching a year since he was selected to be the next re-work. I don't see the harm in adding some usefulness to older champs in the interim while we wait for them to get full re-works.
    I'm also super down for adding usefulness, but why couldn't Hawkeye get his Crit buff as a June update line item rather than if and only if you get Hit-Monkey? People already know that synergies aren't usually going to be game changers for a champ, they just make them a little better. Who wouldn't want as many champs as possible to be better as frequently as possible?
  • MagrailothosMagrailothos Posts: 3,447 ★★★★★
    I'm largely with the OP.

    I do understand the value in giving synergies with old champs to new champs; and don't want it to stop.

    On the other hand, couldn't a few of these buffs just get developed between two old champions and be added in the changelog?

    Like, 28.0:
    Bug Fixes and improvements:

    Gambit and Rogue - Romance synergy has been updated to "Happily Ever After" Unique synergy - both champs gain +50% buff duration.

    Daredevil and Luke Cage- Boring 'Teammates' synergy has been updated to "See you on Hulu" Unique synergy - Whenever he gains a Precision effect, Daredevil has a 10% chance to shrug off one debuff. Luke Cage reduces the potency of armour break debuffs by 50%.
  • BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 1,448 ★★★★

    I'm largely with the OP.

    I do understand the value in giving synergies with old champs to new champs; and don't want it to stop.

    On the other hand, couldn't a few of these buffs just get developed between two old champions and be added in the changelog?

    Like, 28.0:
    Bug Fixes and improvements:

    Gambit and Rogue - Romance synergy has been updated to "Happily Ever After" Unique synergy - both champs gain +50% buff duration.

    Daredevil and Luke Cage- Boring 'Teammates' synergy has been updated to "See you on Hulu" Unique synergy - Whenever he gains a Precision effect, Daredevil has a 10% chance to shrug off one debuff. Luke Cage reduces the potency of armour break debuffs by 50%.

    I like that idea better than what they're doing too.
  • BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 1,448 ★★★★
    _ASDF_ said:

    What I don’t get. There’s a room, filled with the game team. Safe to assume these developers are fans of the characters. They’re sitting and discussing new builds and synergies. Bro #1 is like, hey, this would be a cool synergy and buff to Warmachine. Bro #2 is like, yeah for sure, that’s something that he’s needed for a while.

    And no one in that room is like. Wait. Wait. Why don’t we just add that to Warmachine’s abilities and update that character?

    All these new synergies coming out, should just go straight into the champ and add something more minor so we’re not required to quest with an entire team of synergies to get what we need out of one old dusty champ. ArE higher ups refusing to upgrade old champs or is there just literally that little creativity on the team? Ffs.

    They act like this is rocket science. There are clearly no Elon’s in these discussions. 🤣

    This guy gets it.
  • FRITO_ManFRITO_Man Posts: 716 ★★★
    Example is Abomination
    Has a synergy with Red Guardian that makes both gods
    Take away the synergy and he is just as useless as Groot
    Couldn't they have just added this to his description and buff him, like "Abominations radiated body poisons the Enemy in it's presence inflicting poison that deals x direct damage over y seconds and reduces HP Regen by 30%"
  • DshuDshu Posts: 1,422 ★★★★

    I just saw Lagacy posted info about Tigra and Hit-Monkey. Lots of useful usability-level synergies for some old champs that suck. Cool. But you need to:



    1. Have the new champ
    2. Have the old champ
    3. Bring them both

    This is so annoying! Do you really believe that people who weren't going to will decide to pursue new champs because of this? Like, "Oh, snap! I wasn't going to before, but I'll drop a couple hundred to get Tigra so I can finally get some use out of this War Machine in Act 6 when I bring them both." This won't affect the $ or desirability of Tigra and Hit-Monkey even a little. Why insist on tying usability-level synergies to new champs? So frustrating. Why can't you just release them as new solo synergies for the old champs with the update? You just keep gifting the bowling ball with your own name on it at every opportunity. So frustrating that it would take such a little course change to get some excitement in the game that doesn't mean entire new content, but nope.

    Unless I missed it they could put a one punch man synergy on a new champ for war machine and you still couldn't bring him into act 6 since he isn't available above a 4*
  • BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 1,448 ★★★★
    Dshu said:

    I just saw Lagacy posted info about Tigra and Hit-Monkey. Lots of useful usability-level synergies for some old champs that suck. Cool. But you need to:



    1. Have the new champ
    2. Have the old champ
    3. Bring them both

    This is so annoying! Do you really believe that people who weren't going to will decide to pursue new champs because of this? Like, "Oh, snap! I wasn't going to before, but I'll drop a couple hundred to get Tigra so I can finally get some use out of this War Machine in Act 6 when I bring them both." This won't affect the $ or desirability of Tigra and Hit-Monkey even a little. Why insist on tying usability-level synergies to new champs? So frustrating. Why can't you just release them as new solo synergies for the old champs with the update? You just keep gifting the bowling ball with your own name on it at every opportunity. So frustrating that it would take such a little course change to get some excitement in the game that doesn't mean entire new content, but nope.

    Unless I missed it they could put a one punch man synergy on a new champ for war machine and you still couldn't bring him into act 6 since he isn't available above a 4*
    I'm expecting 6 star War Machine in the next featured coming in a few days, but I'm relatively certain you knew what I meant and were just being that fun and interactive forum cool guy type that everyone likes.
  • DshuDshu Posts: 1,422 ★★★★
    _ASDF_ said:

    What I don’t get. There’s a room, filled with the game team. Safe to assume these developers are fans of the characters. They’re sitting and discussing new builds and synergies. Bro #1 is like, hey, this would be a cool synergy and buff to Warmachine. Bro #2 is like, yeah for sure, that’s something that he’s needed for a while.

    And no one in that room is like. Wait. Wait. Why don’t we just add that to Warmachine’s abilities and update that character?

    All these new synergies coming out, should just go straight into the champ and add something more minor so we’re not required to quest with an entire team of synergies to get what we need out of one old dusty champ. ArE higher ups refusing to upgrade old champs or is there just literally that little creativity on the team? Ffs.

    They act like this is rocket science. There are clearly no Elon’s in these discussions. 🤣

    Original poster asked for a reason for the disagree. Pretty sure I gave a logical reason for disagreeing with what he posted. Not my fault he used wm as an example
  • DshuDshu Posts: 1,422 ★★★★

    Dshu said:

    I just saw Lagacy posted info about Tigra and Hit-Monkey. Lots of useful usability-level synergies for some old champs that suck. Cool. But you need to:



    1. Have the new champ
    2. Have the old champ
    3. Bring them both

    This is so annoying! Do you really believe that people who weren't going to will decide to pursue new champs because of this? Like, "Oh, snap! I wasn't going to before, but I'll drop a couple hundred to get Tigra so I can finally get some use out of this War Machine in Act 6 when I bring them both." This won't affect the $ or desirability of Tigra and Hit-Monkey even a little. Why insist on tying usability-level synergies to new champs? So frustrating. Why can't you just release them as new solo synergies for the old champs with the update? You just keep gifting the bowling ball with your own name on it at every opportunity. So frustrating that it would take such a little course change to get some excitement in the game that doesn't mean entire new content, but nope.

    Unless I missed it they could put a one punch man synergy on a new champ for war machine and you still couldn't bring him into act 6 since he isn't available above a 4*
    I'm expecting 6 star War Machine in the next featured coming in a few days, but I'm relatively certain you knew what I meant and were just being that fun and interactive forum cool guy type that everyone likes.
    While I agree with the idea behind the post I was just giving the reason for disagreeing with you. I have over 100 5* champs and only a handful are usable outside of eq. The problem with using wm in your example is you leave kabam an out because he isn't viable due to the gates at this point in time. I've been vocal about the gates in act 6 since its release and on the thread about the state of the game my post was in regards to the lack of usability of over 90% of our roster. Out of the 40 6*s I have only 5 are useable in act 6 and then 3 only for synergy reasons. It's not just about the old characters lacking utility. New content is so overtuned that even with buffs most would be useless to bring. Your using wm in the example though gives them the ability to reply that he hasn't been added to the 5 or 6* pool so your post is flawed from the start. Don't give them that opportunity.
  • BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 1,448 ★★★★
    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    I just saw Lagacy posted info about Tigra and Hit-Monkey. Lots of useful usability-level synergies for some old champs that suck. Cool. But you need to:



    1. Have the new champ
    2. Have the old champ
    3. Bring them both

    This is so annoying! Do you really believe that people who weren't going to will decide to pursue new champs because of this? Like, "Oh, snap! I wasn't going to before, but I'll drop a couple hundred to get Tigra so I can finally get some use out of this War Machine in Act 6 when I bring them both." This won't affect the $ or desirability of Tigra and Hit-Monkey even a little. Why insist on tying usability-level synergies to new champs? So frustrating. Why can't you just release them as new solo synergies for the old champs with the update? You just keep gifting the bowling ball with your own name on it at every opportunity. So frustrating that it would take such a little course change to get some excitement in the game that doesn't mean entire new content, but nope.

    Unless I missed it they could put a one punch man synergy on a new champ for war machine and you still couldn't bring him into act 6 since he isn't available above a 4*
    I'm expecting 6 star War Machine in the next featured coming in a few days, but I'm relatively certain you knew what I meant and were just being that fun and interactive forum cool guy type that everyone likes.
    While I agree with the idea behind the post I was just giving the reason for disagreeing with you. I have over 100 5* champs and only a handful are usable outside of eq. The problem with using wm in your example is you leave kabam an out because he isn't viable due to the gates at this point in time. I've been vocal about the gates in act 6 since its release and on the thread about the state of the game my post was in regards to the lack of usability of over 90% of our roster. Out of the 40 6*s I have only 5 are useable in act 6 and then 3 only for synergy reasons. It's not just about the old characters lacking utility. New content is so overtuned that even with buffs most would be useless to bring. Your using wm in the example though gives them the ability to reply that he hasn't been added to the 5 or 6* pool so your post is flawed from the start. Don't give them that opportunity.
    Like I said, I'll be shocked if he's not in the new 6 star crystal in a few days and Tigra won't even be available until after that.
  • Thicco_ModeThicco_Mode Posts: 8,845 ★★★★★
    edited May 2020
    I agree that they should add these simpler synergies like abom's that just make the champ more viable. I think small buffs like these should be implemented by kabam

    However, I dont totally understand why people complain about kabam's taking a long time to rework champs (not referring to anyone in this thread;just in general) sure, the animations are already created, but designing a champ is still lots of work.

    Another solution that I still consider to be an effective way to make more champs viable is similar to what @JABBA_2 said above. The problem with content currently is that it's incredibly niche and only a small list of champions can clear certain quests/paths/fights. This means that you can progress as long as you have the few counters to a fight. But when you don't have a counter, you're out of luck. I don't agree with jabba about nerfing the best champs, because I still think that some champs should be better than others, but I think small buffs to champs on the bottom wouldn't hurt. Basically, kabam should focus on making most content beatable with any champ, so skill will play a larger role. I do get that roster depth should be a factor and I agree, but there's a limit and skill should play a larger factor
  • Timone147Timone147 Posts: 1,276 ★★★★
    You know while I’m not sure I 100% agree I do think some of the synergy additions answers the question on what could be done in the short term to make the champs better that have no uses. Maybe some of these synergies we are getting should be instead minor buff packages to these champs instead would no you use have this champ with them strings attached.

    Clearly if the synergies can be developed to make champs better then same stuff could be done just for the champs faster than these full blown redesigns. Like the abomination synergy could have just been rolled out as a buff to abomination to make him a reasonable champion to play.

    Some synergies definitely belong strapped to other champs to limit the range because of the potency but there are definitely examples of synergies that could have been rolled out as buff packages to the lesser champs to just make them viable again.
  • BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Posts: 1,448 ★★★★
    Timone147 said:

    You know while I’m not sure I 100% agree I do think some of the synergy additions answers the question on what could be done in the short term to make the champs better that have no uses. Maybe some of these synergies we are getting should be instead minor buff packages to these champs instead would no you use have this champ with them strings attached.

    Clearly if the synergies can be developed to make champs better then same stuff could be done just for the champs faster than these full blown redesigns. Like the abomination synergy could have just been rolled out as a buff to abomination to make him a reasonable champion to play.

    Some synergies definitely belong strapped to other champs to limit the range because of the potency but there are definitely examples of synergies that could have been rolled out as buff packages to the lesser champs to just make them viable again.

    I get limitations on the synergies, but they're already limited in comparison to abilities because they don't have to consider any consequences on their end or AWD since defenders don't have synergies, so they should come out significantly faster since the testing and balance wouldn't be as extensive.
  • GraydroxGraydrox Posts: 400 ★★★

    If you disagree, could you say why you would prefer the synergies that help make old champs worth using should exclusively tie-in to new champs, rather than stand alone?

    I understand what you're getting at here. It would be much better if all champs were useful. But, at the rate it takes Kabam to update old champs it's never gonna happen. They may update 1 champ for every 12 released. It's not a winning strategy to expect Kabam to keep up with all the outdated champs. Their priority is to create new useful champs. Therefore, they unintentionally make old champs less useful by making new champs useful. They can't get around it.

    I like the tie-ins to old champs from the perspective that Kabam cant keep up with updating old champs. It makes them have value. I'll take what I can get.
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