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Why Iceman isn’t coldsnap immune Etc

TP33TP33 Member Posts: 1,781 ★★★★★
edited June 2020 in General Discussion
Right I see way too many threads on this we need to apply physics. I will also cover GR, HT, Sunspot, Dormammu.

Lets get these rules out of the way
1. It is FAR easier to lose energy to gain it
2. Icemans powers are based around the reduction of energy
3. Just because something is on fire it doesn’t mean it can’t be more on fire (you’ll see what I mean later)

Why isn’t Iceman Coldsnap immune?

I saw this before somewhere but Iceman REDUCES ENERGY AROUND HIM. If the energy around him is further reduced he cannot counter that. If anything Iceman should be VULNERABLE to coldsnap as he’s already low on energy. I mean giving him a coldsnap might just reduce temperatures to sub-zero. Applying physics the particles inside Iceman would have so little energy that he probably wouldn’t be able to move.

Why is Sunspot not coldsnap immune but HT is

Sunspots powers come from the sun, an external source. Meaning energy coming into him would have to flow into him from outside. I mean a simple atmosphere would reduce his power slightly.

If the energy around him is reduced than the solar radiation is going to find it harder to get through and thus Sunspot won’t be able to heat himself up enough to not take damage. Yes he should probably have a form of resistance to Coldsnap seeing as the particles inside of him already store lots of energy but I think a non-immunity is a good compromise.

HTs powers come from around AND inside him though so if energy around him is reduced he will be able to generate enough energy to balance out his insides. But it would take a lot of energy. Idk he should probably get a damage reduction whilst cold snapped but why make an immunity a disadvantage?

Why isn’t GR incinerate immune?

As we’ve established most incinerates come from an increase of general energy. Whilst yes, GR is on fire, what’s to say that he cannot he heated further or super-heated. I mean at that point everything should begin melting/turning into plasma. Like other champions if anything he should have a weakness to incinerate

What about Dormammu

Basically the same as GR.

So using actual physics instead of just ‘common sense’ you could come to the conclusion that these champions don’t need those immunities and if they did they’d probably be breaking laws of physics.
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Comments

  • TP33TP33 Member Posts: 1,781 ★★★★★
    If you doubt this than bear in mind Havok is incinerate immune because he can control energy around him. He is also resistant to coldsnap with his energy resistance but not fully because it is harder to increase energy than to decrease it. So yeah. Kabam do physics.
  • LibertyPrimeV1LibertyPrimeV1 Member Posts: 4,179 ★★★★★
    TP33 said:



    Why isn’t GR incinerate immune?

    As we’ve established most incinerates come from an increase of general energy. Whilst yes, GR is on fire, what’s to say that he cannot he heated further or super-heated. I mean at that point everything should begin melting/turning into plasma. Like other champions if anything he should have a weakness to incinerate

    Also Ghost Rider isn't "On Fire" in the traditional sense, his Energy sparking around him is Hellfire which burns the soul more so than physical objects.
    Also an example of Fire and Hellfire being two different things is Symbiotes who are normally Extremely Weak to Fire and afraid of it, aren't effected by Hellfire in that way and only take the normal effects of it that any other living being would.
  • TP33TP33 Member Posts: 1,781 ★★★★★
    @LibertyPrimeV1 @SpideyFunko i know it’s hellfire and it’s different but come on. I’m trying to crack this with physics. I’m not going to take into account the laws of the mystic arts. As far as I’m concerned it’s an energy source requiring a fuel (souls), heat and probably oxygen, I’m going to treat it like fire
  • WorknprogressWorknprogress Member Posts: 7,233 ★★★★★
    The only answer to why certain champs aren't immune to certain effects that's needed is, bc they're not. That's how they're designed. Whether or not it makes sense to anyone doesn't matter.
  • UnknownUnknown
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  • UnknownUnknown
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  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 21,053 Guardian
    TP33 said:

    Right I see way too many threads on this we need to apply physics. I will also cover GR, HT, Sunspot, Dormammu.

    Lets get these rules out of the way
    1. It is FAR easier to lose energy to gain it
    2. Icemans powers are based around the reduction of energy
    3. Just because something is on fire it doesn’t mean it can’t be more on fire (you’ll see what I mean later)

    Why isn’t Iceman Coldsnap immune?

    I saw this before somewhere but Iceman REDUCES ENERGY AROUND HIM. If the energy around him is further reduced he cannot counter that. If anything Iceman should be VULNERABLE to coldsnap as he’s already low on energy. I mean giving him a coldsnap might just reduce temperatures to sub-zero. Applying physics the particles inside Iceman would have so little energy that he probably wouldn’t be able to move.

    Actually, this is somewhat backwards. It is actually harder to remove energy from something than heat it. It comes down to the fact that the rate at which heat will flow from one thing to the other is dependent on their temperature difference. If we want to make something hot, we can expose it to something with a lot of heat, and there's no limit to how hot we can make a thing. But since there's a limit to how cold we can make something, there's an absolute limit to how fast we can make something cold. My electric kettle can boil water in a minute or two. My freezer takes far longer to freeze water, even though room temperature water is much closer to freezing than boiling.

    Since Iceman can freeze things solid in no time at all, we know he isn't cooling things off with normal physics. Even if he could instantly make his body as cold as absolute zero (which is impossible), that *still* wouldn't cause nearby objects to freeze on any reasonable timescale. That's why, with some modern physics awareness, the comic books now say he's an energy manipulator, able to make things cold by manipulating the kinetic energy in the substances almost instantly.

    And because Iceman's ability to make things cold is really a beyond-physics energy manipulation and has nothing directly to do with normal "make things cold" processes, there's no reason to assume that Iceman is immune to those powers. Iceman is stated to be immune to cold - that means if he is exposed to cold things it does nothing to him. That's probably because he doesn't radiate heat to the outside world. Because he doesn't, exposing him to cold things does nothing. Remember: cold is not a thing, heat is a thing. When I'm surrounded by cold things, my body loses heat to those things because it radiates heat, it doesn't absorb cold. But when Iceman is surrounded by cold things, he doesn't lose heat to those things, so it doesn't matter how cold they are. But when someone uses magical mutant powers to rip energy directly out of his body? Its frankly up to the comic book author to decide what happens when that occurs. That's a beyond-physics question. The one thing that's certain is Iceman's "immunity to cold" has nothing to do with it.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 21,053 Guardian
    SavageYeti2631 said:

    TP33 said:

    Right I see way too many threads on this we need to apply physics. I will also cover GR, HT, Sunspot, Dormammu.

    Lets get these rules out of the way
    1. It is FAR easier to lose energy to gain it
    2. Icemans powers are based around the reduction of energy
    3. Just because something is on fire it doesn’t mean it can’t be more on fire (you’ll see what I mean later)

    Why isn’t Iceman Coldsnap immune?

    I saw this before somewhere but Iceman REDUCES ENERGY AROUND HIM. If the energy around him is further reduced he cannot counter that. If anything Iceman should be VULNERABLE to coldsnap as he’s already low on energy. I mean giving him a coldsnap might just reduce temperatures to sub-zero. Applying physics the particles inside Iceman would have do little energy that he probably wouldn’t be able to move.

    Why is Sunspot not coldsnap immune but HT is

    Sunspots powers come from the sun, an external source. Meaning energy coming into him would have to flow into him from outside. I mean a simple atmosphere would reduce his power slightly.

    If the energy around him is reduced than the solar radiation is going to find it harder to get through and thus Sunspot won’t be able to heat himself up enough to not take damage. Yes he should probably have a form of resistance to Coldsnap seeing as the particles inside of him already store lots of energy but I think a non-immunity is a good compromise.

    HTs powers come from around AND inside him though so if energy around him is reduced he will be able to generate enough energy to balance out his insides. But it would take a lot of energy. Idk he should probably get a damage reduction whilst cold snapped but why make an immunity a disadvantage?

    Why isn’t GR incinerate immune?

    As we’ve established most incinerates come from an increase of general energy. Whilst yes, GR is on fire, what’s to say that he cannot he heated further or super-heated. I mean at that point everything should begin melting/turning into plasma. Like other champions if anything he should have a weakness to incinerate

    What about Dormammu

    Basically the same as GR.

    So using actual physics instead of just ‘common sense’ you could come to the conclusion that these champions don’t need those immunities and if they did they’d probably be breaking laws of physics.

    Just pointing out Iceman's ability is absolute zero. And you physically cannot go below absolute 0 on the Kelvin scale
    You physically can't reach absolute zero either. This would violate the laws of quantum mechanics at least. But then again, Iceman's powers directly violate the first, second, and third laws of thermodynamics regardless, so that's somewhat moot.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 21,053 Guardian
    Odachi said:

    You can't 'apply physics' to a game set in a comic book universe. If you do that then when champs get shot they should die, forever, be deleted from your roster, how about that? Just accept it and move on.

    You can't make authoritative statements, because comic books violate the laws of physics all the time. But you can apply physics to comic books, insofar as the comic book authors do it all the time. They take their understanding of physics (sometimes okay, sometimes awful) and then extend it into the comic book world. Without some extrapolation of real world physics there's be no guide to how the world should work. Authors don't always apply physics very well to comic books, but they do apply something, because without rules there is no narrative.

    Iceman used to look like a snowman. Then he looked like an ice carving. I doubt the authors contemplated changing him to look like pumpkin pie, because some understanding of how water works when it is cold seeped into the conversation about what Iceman should look like.
  • 007md92007md92 Member Posts: 1,380 ★★★★

    Bro if u r new on forum. This is one of the old topics.
    There are big posts including this and countless others.
    Why iceman isn't coldsnap immune
    Why 👻 rider ain't incenerate immune
    Why magneto is meme
    Why sentry is meme... Etc etc.
    These are the most talked about topic 4 years ago.

    Well with current roadmap. I hope some changes and rebalance will occur. Mags is already be 'worthy of his name" according to them. So finger cross for everything.
  • LeNoirFaineantLeNoirFaineant Member Posts: 8,693 ★★★★★
    So Dorm takes damage from a Domino incinerate because it makes him too hot because physics... The fact that Domino can beat him at all is because it's a game, but the incinerate damage is physics. I think I'll stick with it's kind of dumb but it's Kabam's game so whatever.
  • UnknownUnknown
    This content has been removed.
  • Deadlygamer98Deadlygamer98 Member Posts: 743 ★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    TP33 said:

    Right I see way too many threads on this we need to apply physics. I will also cover GR, HT, Sunspot, Dormammu.

    Lets get these rules out of the way
    1. It is FAR easier to lose energy to gain it
    2. Icemans powers are based around the reduction of energy
    3. Just because something is on fire it doesn’t mean it can’t be more on fire (you’ll see what I mean later)

    Why isn’t Iceman Coldsnap immune?

    I saw this before somewhere but Iceman REDUCES ENERGY AROUND HIM. If the energy around him is further reduced he cannot counter that. If anything Iceman should be VULNERABLE to coldsnap as he’s already low on energy. I mean giving him a coldsnap might just reduce temperatures to sub-zero. Applying physics the particles inside Iceman would have so little energy that he probably wouldn’t be able to move.

    Actually, this is somewhat backwards. It is actually harder to remove energy from something than heat it. It comes down to the fact that the rate at which heat will flow from one thing to the other is dependent on their temperature difference. If we want to make something hot, we can expose it to something with a lot of heat, and there's no limit to how hot we can make a thing. But since there's a limit to how cold we can make something, there's an absolute limit to how fast we can make something cold. My electric kettle can boil water in a minute or two. My freezer takes far longer to freeze water, even though room temperature water is much closer to freezing than boiling.

    Since Iceman can freeze things solid in no time at all, we know he isn't cooling things off with normal physics. Even if he could instantly make his body as cold as absolute zero (which is impossible), that *still* wouldn't cause nearby objects to freeze on any reasonable timescale. That's why, with some modern physics awareness, the comic books now say he's an energy manipulator, able to make things cold by manipulating the kinetic energy in the substances almost instantly.

    And because Iceman's ability to make things cold is really a beyond-physics energy manipulation and has nothing directly to do with normal "make things cold" processes, there's no reason to assume that Iceman is immune to those powers. Iceman is stated to be immune to cold - that means if he is exposed to cold things it does nothing to him. That's probably because he doesn't radiate heat to the outside world. Because he doesn't, exposing him to cold things does nothing. Remember: cold is not a thing, heat is a thing. When I'm surrounded by cold things, my body loses heat to those things because it radiates heat, it doesn't absorb cold. But when Iceman is surrounded by cold things, he doesn't lose heat to those things, so it doesn't matter how cold they are. But when someone uses magical mutant powers to rip energy directly out of his body? Its frankly up to the comic book author to decide what happens when that occurs. That's a beyond-physics question. The one thing that's certain is Iceman's "immunity to cold" has nothing to do with it.
    You have a lot of time on your hands
  • MauledMauled Member, Guardian Posts: 3,956 Guardian
    I mean, applying physics to superpowers is a slippery slope to madness. It’s a bit like applying physics to Harry Potter or wondering why Frodo didn’t just take the Eagles to Mordor.
  • SpideyFunkoSpideyFunko Member Posts: 21,973 ★★★★★
    Mauled said:

    I mean, applying physics to superpowers is a slippery slope to madness. It’s a bit like applying physics to Harry Potter or wondering why Frodo didn’t just take the Eagles to Mordor.

    literally all they had to do was fly over the volcano, drop it in, and boom world saved, ring destroyed, Boromir lives, yada yada yada.
  • SavageYeti2631SavageYeti2631 Member Posts: 54 ★
    SpideyFunko said:

    Mauled said:

    I mean, applying physics to superpowers is a slippery slope to madness. It’s a bit like applying physics to Harry Potter or wondering why Frodo didn’t just take the Eagles to Mordor.

    literally all they had to do was fly over the volcano, drop it in, and boom world saved, ring destroyed, Boromir lives, yada yada yada.
    Nahhh its Sean Bean they wouldve killed him somehow
  • SpideyFunkoSpideyFunko Member Posts: 21,973 ★★★★★
    SavageYeti2631 said:

    SpideyFunko said:

    Mauled said:

    I mean, applying physics to superpowers is a slippery slope to madness. It’s a bit like applying physics to Harry Potter or wondering why Frodo didn’t just take the Eagles to Mordor.

    literally all they had to do was fly over the volcano, drop it in, and boom world saved, ring destroyed, Boromir lives, yada yada yada.
    Nahhh its Sean Bean they wouldve killed him somehow
    he would’ve fallen into the volcano
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