Sabretooth and Sasquatch Synergy [Merged Threads]

1468910

Comments

  • RockypantherxRockypantherx Posts: 1,622 ★★★★★

    Hey all,

    We're looking into another method to tackle this so it would not affect how you all know and play as him at this time. Will have more information for you all soon.

    Thank you! Maybe. But +1 point for being somewhat flexible
  • LilMaddogHTLilMaddogHT Posts: 542 ★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    So, just posted this in an announcement, but should share it here too:

    Sabretooth has had a long-standing bug where players can maintain more Fury Effects than you should be able to. It states in his Abilities that he can have a maximum of 15 Permanent Passive Fury Effects. Regardless of the method of getting them, you should not be able to exceed this maximum.

    We are working to get this fixed as soon as possible. This affects some of the videos that you may have seen where Sabretooth is able to achieve significantly more Passive Fury Effects than intended.


    This bug may have been well known to some of you, but it was never the intended case, and this synergy just helped bring it to light. The Synergy was designed to extend Sabretooth's fully ramped state, and not increase the runway for him to ramp up.

    It actually doesn't say that. It says in his abilities:

    "Sabretooth cannot convert his passive Fury effects while fighting if he has 15 or more permanent passive Fury effects active."

    It does not say, or even imply, that Sabretooth is capped at 15 passive furies. In fact, it actually goes out of its way to imply that it is possible to get more than 15 passive furies when it states "... if he has 15 or more permanent passive Fury effects active."

    And there are two ways to convert fury buffs to passive fury effects. Both are listed in his abilities. First:

    "Dodging back and allowing Sabretooth to idle for 1 second allows him to convert a temporary Fury buff into a permanent passive effect."

    This is obviously something you do "while fighting." But there's another way:

    "At the start of the fight, if Sabretooth has a Persisstent Charge, he consumes one, re-activating all of his Fury effects that were active at the end of his last fight as permanent Passive Fury effects."

    This is something you do when not fighting. His abilities state that when he has "15 or more" passive fury effects, he cannot do the first one to gain any more. But his abilities do not say that the second method doesn't work when he has 15 or more passive Fury effects.

    And the Developer spotlight emphasizes the fact that the fury buffs will carry over into the next fight:

    "Developer Note: Sabretooth is all about building up damage over multiple fights and will be really good against bosses. Any active Fury effects will be reactivated as passive effects in the next fight if you have a Persistent Charge. This means, if you have 10 passive Permanent Fury effects and 1 temporary Fury Buff active at the end of the fight, Sabretooth will have 11 Fury effects in the next fight as passive Permanent effects."

    And:

    "Developer Note: Sabretooth’s Special 3 Fury has a very short duration but is extremely powerful! Finish fights with his Special 3 Attack to guarantee having this Fury effect in the next fight."

    If it was ever the intent of the designer that Sabretooth would be capped at 15 passive fury effects, it nowhere states that or even implies that in his abilities or spotlight. And it would have been trivial to do so, as the abilities could have simply stated "passive fury effects are capped to 15." The fact that the abilities descriptions appear to go way out of their way to *not* say that is at least ambiguous, if not directly contradicting.
    All this... This is spot on @DNA3000 and well said. It's NOT a bug. Kabam is trying to nerf ST original's abilities because they are adding a synergy that can make ST op in certain niche situations that actually consumes a lot of resources to accomplish. Getting above 15 furies is a normal map 6 AQ occurrence for me... If you don't want him to get ramped up to super-OP Fury strengths, Kabam should add a cap (above the 15 - maybe 23?) and not cap him altogether at 15.

    With 6 Persistent Charges, ST was already capable of achieving 23 furies w/o ANY synergies:
    1st fight: Gain 6 charges, manually convert 5, L3 + 10 combo fury at end: Bank 7 Fury
    2nd fight: Consume 1 charge to 5, manually convert 5, L3 + 10 combo fury at end: Bank another 7 Fury = 14
    3rd fight: Consume 1 charge to 4, manually convert 1 (at max convertable 15), L3 + 10 combo fury at end: Bank another 3 Fury = 17
    4th fight: Consume 1 charge to 3, L3 + 10 combo fury at end: Bank another 2 Fury = 19
    5th fight: Consume 1 charge to 2, L3 + 10 combo fury at end: Bank another 2 Fury = 21
    6th fight: Consume 1 charge to 1, L3 + 10 combo fury at end: Bank another 2 Fury = 23
    7th fight: Consume 1 charge to 0. Fight with 23 fury. You can get additional Fury from 10 combo or L3 while fighting but at end nothing will be converted or carried over as all charges are consumed.

    You add the Mutant Fury that he gets from the SW/Magento synergy, that fury has been able to be banked at fights end
    The Heimdall & Hela/Angela synergy Fury was not able to be banked... I tested it this weekend. No longer bank'able... Thought it was in the past.
  • Anonymous346Anonymous346 Posts: 661 ★★★
    I think Kabam should meet us in the middle. Instead of capping his furies as 15 completely, we should be allowed to gain more.....
    currently we can gain 2 extra furies. I think they should make it so we can no longer carry any furies that are active after reaching the 15 cap, but can still gain a fury if we finish the fight with an Sp3. This way, the synergy would still be decent, but not broken to the level it can be exploited.
  • RockypantherxRockypantherx Posts: 1,622 ★★★★★

    I read through this thread but I'm still confused. ST, w/o synergies, is able to get an infinite number of Furies, but that is capped off due to his PCs. The new synergy allows him to regain those PCs, right? Therefore, ST could now gain those infinite Furies.

    So why is this a bug?

    I mean, this is the thing. It’s not. They say it is, it’s not. Apparently he shouldn’t be converting those furies at the end of the fight if he has 15, even though this is how he has always worked and people in this thread have shown that’s how it should work.

    Bottom line, they made an OP synergy, didn’t realise it, but instead of owning their mistake they decided to call it a bug

  • SavageSavage Posts: 458 ★★★

    Hey all,

    We're looking into another method to tackle this so it would not affect how you all know and play as him at this time. Will have more information for you all soon.

    I’d suggest capping at 25 or 30 that way it’s still a good synergy but nothing too game breaking considering the ramp up
    That's something we're looking into. Doesn't feasibly change his base kit, and still makes him super strong. Just not "broken" strong.
    I full-heartedly agree. It doesn't punish the people that would play sabretooth regularly and ramp him up through winning fights while it keeps the same playstyle he has had for years. Anyways Sabretooth will get the much needed attention he deserved this whole time.
  • ÜLVİÜLVİ Posts: 2

    I'm checking on this. Sabretooth's description clearly calls out "Sabretooth cannot convert his passive Fury effects while fighting if he has 15 or more permanent passive Fury effects active.", so I don't know what is happening here.

    Really? When you released Sabretooth you was saying that finish fight with 3 special attack to get more passive fury than you are saying it's very powerful sunergy and giving disbalance to game? 🤦‍♂️
  • KDoggg2017KDoggg2017 Posts: 565 ★★★
    I'd like to suggest a couple of solutions, seeing as the Spotlight told us Sabertooth could have more than 15 passive furies.
    1) Give the ST/Sasquatch synergy a fury cap of...say...50 furies.
    2) Remove the need for a synergy at all. Give ST a lower fury cap of 25 and add the ability to add 1 persistent charge per fight to Sabretooth's base kit.
    (ST will no longer be an obvious Abyss option, but he'd be significantly more useable everywhere else).
  • Lvernon15Lvernon15 Posts: 8,955 ★★★★★
    This just isn’t a bug, it’s an oversight with the synergy due to a lack of testing, don’t target the champion and truly cap him at 15 or you’ll have rdt calls since it’s a nerf to sabre. If you have to then change the unreleased synergy so he is capped at 30 furies or can only gain the charge on the sp3 10 times or something like that
  • RockypantherxRockypantherx Posts: 1,622 ★★★★★

    Hey all,

    We're looking into another method to tackle this so it would not affect how you all know and play as him at this time. Will have more information for you all soon.

    I’d suggest capping at 25 or 30 that way it’s still a good synergy but nothing too game breaking considering the ramp up
    That's something we're looking into. Doesn't feasibly change his base kit, and still makes him super strong. Just not "broken" strong.
    There’s your fix.
  • Notsavage19Notsavage19 Posts: 1,924 ★★★★★

    Hey all,

    We're looking into another method to tackle this so it would not affect how you all know and play as him at this time. Will have more information for you all soon.

    I’d suggest capping at 25 or 30 that way it’s still a good synergy but nothing too game breaking considering the ramp up
    That's something we're looking into. Doesn't feasibly change his base kit, and still makes him super strong. Just not "broken" strong.
    It's still not very broken, though, since you would still have to either go through an ungodly number of fights or spend an ungodly number of revives to achieve that "broken" damage output, right? It's just a more risky Aegon.
  • Lvernon15Lvernon15 Posts: 8,955 ★★★★★

    Hey all,

    We're looking into another method to tackle this so it would not affect how you all know and play as him at this time. Will have more information for you all soon.

    I’d suggest capping at 25 or 30 that way it’s still a good synergy but nothing too game breaking considering the ramp up
    That's something we're looking into. Doesn't feasibly change his base kit, and still makes him super strong. Just not "broken" strong.
    That’s the ideal solution, a cap of 30 would make his damage probably around a cull obsidian level but it’s after a very lengthy ramp up, and he still lacks utility comparatively and has scenarios where he can’t reach the sp3. This change would make him an aegon alternative for content but wouldn’t mean he’s the best for it
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 24,656 ★★★★★
    Everything in the game pretty much has reasonable limitations.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 10,861 Guardian

    DNA3000 said:

    Way to go dumbass YTers.

    Not sure why you're blaming the content creators. It is part of their job to tear these new champs apart and report on them, and so they were just doing what they were supposed to be doing. And this synergy is so ridiculously overpowered that anyone with a brain who looked at it for more than two seconds would have seen the potential of it. The moment I spent any time looking at the champs carefully I would have blown the whistle on this thing as well. You can't keep something like this a secret.

    But the longer it takes to get exposed, the more players will be negatively impacted by the inevitable nerf or change. So it is far better that this get resolved sooner than later.
    Simple.

    They exploited the synergy in a completely unrealistic way... that alone caused a knee jerk reaction.

    The synergy is perfectly fine when applied to a "real-world" use.

    They didn't test anything. They used unlimited resources to over inflate the potency of the synergy.
    Yeah, some people did push the synergy to extremes, but the idea that "real world" use of the synergy would have been fine is kind of silly. What do you define as "real world" use? I mean, you can farm revives: they don't have to cost *anything*. And then you can dump all of those free revives into a champion that basically permanently has more damage than Star Lord or Aegon, and as long as you can reach one SP3 per fight you can never lose that damage throughout an entire map.

    For simple easy content no one would likely do this of course. But for the highest, hardest, longest content in the game? This would be the cheapest way to go.

    If they kept this synergy in the game, and I would have bet my house they wouldn't have, I would have been plotting out my Abyss run with this synergy already. And it doesn't matter if there's literally no where else the synergy worked: that would be plenty enough to justify using it. But of course, it isn't the only place it would be useful, as the game didn't stop releasing content. All future content with high health pools and long paths would have been vulnerable to this synergy.

    I didn't even need to *watch* most of the videos to know this was broken. I starting watching one Youtuber's video on this synergy and I knew it was horribly broken before they finishing explaining how the synergy worked. The gameplay was just entertaining gravy.
  • Lvernon15Lvernon15 Posts: 8,955 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Way to go dumbass YTers.

    Not sure why you're blaming the content creators. It is part of their job to tear these new champs apart and report on them, and so they were just doing what they were supposed to be doing. And this synergy is so ridiculously overpowered that anyone with a brain who looked at it for more than two seconds would have seen the potential of it. The moment I spent any time looking at the champs carefully I would have blown the whistle on this thing as well. You can't keep something like this a secret.

    But the longer it takes to get exposed, the more players will be negatively impacted by the inevitable nerf or change. So it is far better that this get resolved sooner than later.
    Simple.

    They exploited the synergy in a completely unrealistic way... that alone caused a knee jerk reaction.

    The synergy is perfectly fine when applied to a "real-world" use.

    They didn't test anything. They used unlimited resources to over inflate the potency of the synergy.
    Yeah, some people did push the synergy to extremes, but the idea that "real world" use of the synergy would have been fine is kind of silly. What do you define as "real world" use? I mean, you can farm revives: they don't have to cost *anything*. And then you can dump all of those free revives into a champion that basically permanently has more damage than Star Lord or Aegon, and as long as you can reach one SP3 per fight you can never lose that damage throughout an entire map.

    For simple easy content no one would likely do this of course. But for the highest, hardest, longest content in the game? This would be the cheapest way to go.

    If they kept this synergy in the game, and I would have bet my house they wouldn't have, I would have been plotting out my Abyss run with this synergy already. And it doesn't matter if there's literally no where else the synergy worked: that would be plenty enough to justify using it. But of course, it isn't the only place it would be useful, as the game didn't stop releasing content. All future content with high health pools and long paths would have been vulnerable to this synergy.

    I didn't even need to *watch* most of the videos to know this was broken. I starting watching one Youtuber's video on this synergy and I knew it was horribly broken before they finishing explaining how the synergy worked. The gameplay was just entertaining gravy.
    In terms of existing content he would be any better than other options, aegon can do lol itemless so he’s better there, for abyss the fact you need the synergy hurts a lot, he would be similar to aegon for the easy path and a bit worse for the other stuff, future content is the issue, being out abyss 2 and if the design is just more health more fights sort of thing then yeah he would be completely broken without using significant units on the rampup
  • Notsavage19Notsavage19 Posts: 1,924 ★★★★★
    We have ramp-up gods in this game, so why is this being treated like it's "game-breaking"? Why is this ramp-up more OP than Aegon? With this synergy, ST is like a "more risk, more reward" version of Aegon, but without half as much utility. Sure, your damage could potentially go sky-high, but the amount of ramp-up that would be needed is still high. With this synergy, the player can still lose that "broken" damage if they mess up, unlike Aegon, who still keeps his PCs.
  • LeNoirFaineantLeNoirFaineant Posts: 6,330 ★★★★★

    Hey all,

    We're looking into another method to tackle this so it would not affect how you all know and play as him at this time. Will have more information for you all soon.

    What about this being a "long-standing bug" then? Shouldn't bugs get fixed?
    Convenience, I guess.
    Anyway, I'm glad you guys decided to do this.
    They don't always. The "bug" can be in the description and the fix can be fixing the description. Domino was bugged, but they decided she was working as intended and changed her description, for example. It's very convenient for them lol.
  • HI_guysHI_guys Posts: 845 ★★★

    We have ramp-up gods in this game, so why is this being treated like it's "game-breaking"? Why is this ramp-up more OP than Aegon? With this synergy, ST is like a "more risk, more reward" version of Aegon, but without half as much utility. Sure, your damage could potentially go sky-high, but the amount of ramp-up that would be needed is still high. With this synergy, the player can still lose that "broken" damage if they mess up, unlike Aegon, who still keeps his PCs.

    With that high of a damge utility dosent matter much. When you go into easy EQ do you just take any random high rated champ or do you choose utility? Just damage right? Because the fights can get over just by hitting and not bothering about the other stuff
  • TreininTreinin Posts: 125 ★★
    Calling this a bug is simply wrong. He was obviously intended to be able to go above 15 furies. His description literally says (as I am sure others have pointed out): "Sabretooth cannot convert his passive Fury effects while fighting if he has 15 or more permanent passive Fury effects."

    To say he was never intended to go above 15 passive furies when, by adding "or more" in the statement above, his description clearly implied he could go above 15 passive fury effects is patently false.

    It is an outright lie to call it a bug that he goes above 15 effects.

    I agree the synergy might need to be tuned, but it is NOT a bug that he goes above 15 furies as stated in the Known Bugs forum. His description clearly states otherwise.

    Fix the synergy, don't nerf the base champion.
  • Notsavage19Notsavage19 Posts: 1,924 ★★★★★
    HI_guys said:

    We have ramp-up gods in this game, so why is this being treated like it's "game-breaking"? Why is this ramp-up more OP than Aegon? With this synergy, ST is like a "more risk, more reward" version of Aegon, but without half as much utility. Sure, your damage could potentially go sky-high, but the amount of ramp-up that would be needed is still high. With this synergy, the player can still lose that "broken" damage if they mess up, unlike Aegon, who still keeps his PCs.

    With that high of a damge utility dosent matter much. When you go into easy EQ do you just take any random high rated champ or do you choose utility? Just damage right? Because the fights can get over just by hitting and not bothering about the other stuff
    But the point is keeping up the high damage is risky, unlike Aegon's combo abilities.
  • KatfoolKatfool Posts: 6
    Just limit ST persistent ability to limit the conversion of temp fury on last fight require a KO of the opponent. That way you can still build 1 or 2 per fight.
Sign In or Register to comment.